"We are all Palestinians"

by Avi Zer-Aviv

As an Israeli-Canadian Jew in Palestine, I have come to witness and document countless human rights violations in the occupied territories, and come to the conclusion that Israel is moving closer to becoming a totalitarian state with a warped moral compass. 'Never Again', a famous slogan symbolizing Jewish self-determination after the holocaust, need not be replaced with 'At Any Price!' Yet many Jews still see Israel as The Golden Child that can do no harm. They send money, support Israeli policy unconditionally, swallow the propoganda whole, not realzing that their Golden Child has become a bully!

Israel's greatest threat is not the Palestinians, nor Iraq, nor the United States, but rather biting its own tail in the name of reactionary military policies that serve only the army generals that make up the previous and current governments here. We, as Jews, must remember how much we have suffered so as to transform that pain to compassion, generosity and understanding. Otherwise, we are destined to fall prey to the victim-victimizer dichotomy, asserting that we are either prey or predator. Today, I say, "We Are All Palestinians."

the greed of corporatism corupts through anything.

Same problem as all of history - power corrupts. that's what our system was supposed to protect against, but it is now over.

but religious fundamentalism, which is in my view worse in the U.S. and Israel than anywhere else. What else but religion and greed can drive us to slaughtering innocent Arabs in the name of

1) seizing control of oil profits, and
2) seizing control of a "Holy" Land

Religious fundamentalism is MUCH worse in the Arab world then in Israel and the US.

and they're not engaged in an endless campaign of murder and ethnic cleansing to seize a precious 'Holy' piece of real estate.

WE ARE

Just because they lack the power and weapons to pursue such a campaign doesn't mean that they wouldn't. Anyway, though the settlements are indeed, at the basis, a project of religious fundamentalism, Israeli government support is rooted in security. (I don't believe the settlements should be there; in fact, I believe quite the contrary. However, I do beleive that many Israeli governments have believed that there was a legitimate security concern in the West Bank that could be solved by the settlements.)

The attack on Iraq was more materialistic and selfish reasons, not religious fundamentalism.

The media wants to paint Islam as some up and coming enemy that is threatening our existence when it is we, the US, that has invaded two countries in the past three years. Israel continues an illegal and immoral occupation for among many reasons, a greater Israel, not any different than Imperial England or the US's Manifest Destiny.

According to the studies I've seen, religious fundamentalism in the U.S. is at least equal to Iran (surely one of the most fundamentalist in the region). Israel certainly has a sizeable religious-chauvinist element as well.

The picture you are reciting is essentially propaganda, although it does have an element of truth.

Is this the conclusion of the studies you've seen, or is it your own?

To name one example, "The People's Religion: American Faith in the 90's", ranks countries according to a "Religion Index". The U.S. and Iran both score high 60's - low 70's. Countries like Britain and France score in the 30's.

That was done in the late eighties, but the basic figures it finds have held steady up to the present. For example, see the 1995 Gallup poll on the subject, as well as the Millenium 2000 poll (also Gallup).

the "Religion index" seems to indicate that of the level among the population, however, not government policy. Iran has a state religion. No separation of government and religious policy.

You're correct. I was specifically talking about religious attitudes amongst the population of various countries. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

But I see the Palestinian threat to themselves! Examine their lots. Is it Israelis or Palestinians on the wrong path?

and I think what really, really, grates at the Israeli's is that they know they are on borrowed time. Two or three or four generations later they will find themselves outnumbered once again and Palestine will be reborn unless Israel does something criminal to get rid of them or drops the pretense of extending voting rights to Arabs inside the green line.

It's not the Palestinians who are in trouble in the big scheme of things.

to get rid of the native Arabs - what in the future would be so different?

and it will take that sort of level of criminality to make a difference, it's not 1948 anymore and they couldn't afford the international pariah status that would buy in the 21st century.

This is not based on the facts.

Shall the Palestinians waste away in refugee camps for more generations waiting for another fantasy?

unless you can tell me my demographic projection is wrong.

About Palestinians multiplying themselves. Israel will not be threatened with her military superiority, numbers or no. The Palestinians could suffer in greater numbers with your projections, or move toard a limited state. A population increase does little for them.

Israel's only card to play is a simplistic appeal to "democracy", it's on thin ice given the incredibly limited role the PA was given which upon examination gives them the responsibility of civil administration without any of the vestiges of real soveriegnty which is best boiled down to the ability to do violence within it's borders.

This bare minimum of "democracy" where the remaining Arab residents of historical Palestine are afforded a vote and the denizens of the West Bank and Gaza are left in limbo makes the difference to a half aware American electorate.

Pull that out and there is no international support, no Israeli economy, no anything.

And Mr. Sharon has no answer other than to keep them pissed
off the whole time and dig up a few hundred "Jews" in odd corners
of the World. In the long run Israel will need something better
or it will be removed. In the end you have to govern well.

is incapable of doing anything worthwhile for the peace process. There we agree. I'd propose a Shinui-Labor coalition, with maybe a few other left-wing parties, that will act for the peace process and combat discrimination against Israeli Muslims. The only thing that involves religion in Israel should be the immigration policy.

I really think they could have done the deal last time if
the Israeli Gov't had sucked it up and allowed a real
sovereign, viable Palestinian state. You don't lose that much
anyway. If they don't behave you just have a real war, but I
think they will behave, they'd have something to lose then.
All this security crap is a crock anyway. Is what you have now
security? Security is being friends with all your neighbors.

Right now, Israel can turn anybody that attacks it into radioactive
glass. That's about as far as you can go with the retaliation
stuff. If that doesn't make you safe, then you are stuck, you are
not going to get safety going down that road. Maybe you should
diversify your strategy.

Why do you think the PA is so hot for the road map? It's the
sovereign state at the end, that's why. That is what got their
attention. Even Hamas says they are willing to leave it to the
next generation and political means if the road map is adhered to.
If you can't win that argument what makes you think you can win
this one? In a generation or two nobody will give a shit.

n/t.

The only things I disagree on is the acceptance of Hamas and other terrorist groups and the use fo nuclear weapons.

Though it is true that Israel can probably destroy and Arab country with nuclear bombs, that option is hardly feasible. International opinion would turn against them completely, their aid from the US would be cut off, and it is certainly possible that some country like Pakistan will turn them into a radioactive wasteland as well. I would go as far to say that nuclear weapons in today's world have next to no real power, because of what I have outlined above. (No real power, that is, aside from being used as excuses by neocon presidents to invade sovereign states and kill thousands of innocent civilians.)

Hmas and the other terrorists are not for peace. They will never be, any more than will some of the extremist settlers. Just as the Israeli government must rein in those settlers, so must the future government of the Palestinian state rein in those terrorists. In this case, reining them in may involve killing them, imprisoning them, and destroying their capanility to launch terrorist attacks.

about nukes, they are (maybe) necessary, but are also an expensive
road to nowhere.

Military force in general, other than for defense, as a deterrent,
is a road to nowhere in the modern world, you can never win in the
old sense of compelling the obedience of the conquered, and the
victory never pays for the war. The current situation in Israel and
the "territories" is a textbook case, as are a number of other current
conflicts. Israel is in the process of bankrupting itself and
dismantling its society in pursuit of the illusion that it can
convince the Palestinians that they are a "beaten people".

This would already have occurred but for the support provided by
the USA, but the USA is going broke too.

I have read that one reason the USA did not use nukes in
VietNam was the observation that the USA has a much richer
field of nuke-worthy targets than VietNam. Israel would
certainly risk its existence if it used the nukes for any
reason, as would any nation.

I have read published statements by Hamas spokesmen to the
effect of what I said. He might have been lying, but I don't
think so, and in any case, as I pointed out, that is no worse
than where you are now, so what is the risk? Do you think that if
Hamas could be directly destroyed at some reasonable cost, it would
still be there?

trusting murderous terrorists on anything. However, it would be worse off than now. If a Palestinian state is created, and terrorists still kill Israelis, what will happen then? The state could well be a safe refuge for them.

I guess I misunderstood your point about nuclear missiles. If taht is what you meant, then yes, I agree.

Military action is a short-term solution to what could be an urgent problem. Once the problem is removed, military action must be immediately followed by a project taht will remove the problem long-term. Military action for its own sake, for an unjust cause, to gain power, or as a long series of strikes, is simply immoral inherently.

I do not minimize it. If the 9/11 attacks can happen to the
USA, then anybody is vulnerable. The situation in Kashmir is
certainly a warning. But a true sovereign Palestinian
state has reason to want to stop 'freelancers", and one result of a
workable solution would be more defensible borders for Israel, at
least that would be one of my goals. It would seem to me there
is much to be said for a joint Israeli-Palestinian defense
arrangement, once you get past the current animosity. Your good
relations with them protect you from the rest of the Arab world.

One would expect Hamas to be become part of the government and to
moderate its methods in consequence. Sometimes the best way to
disarm a terrorist is to make him a Member of Parliament. And they
would always exist under the threat of renewed invasion if they
failed to govern well.

can get rid of the terrorists, by killing them or stop making them terrorists, great. The problem is, if Abbas can't, or is unwilling to, it will be hard to trust the Palestinian state on that matter.

A solution that does not lead to the end of political
violence is no solution at all.

In the long run Israel will need something better
or it will be removed. In the end you have to govern well.

Is this in line with UN resolutions on the matter?

.

That would require predicting the future, and some
specification as to which UN resolutions are at issue,
but I care little for such niceities.

What I see is this:

Israel, 55 years out, is a highly militarized state that is
deeply dependent on massive outside military and financial
subsidies for its continued viability. Mr. Sharon, moron that
he is, has greatly aggravated this problem with his fantasies
about "facts on the ground".

It has a large and highly alienated repressed ethnic minority
and no apparent ideas about how to reach an accomodation with it
other than to bully it some more in the hope that this will somehow
have a different effect than it has in the past.

The USA, the primary supporter of Israel, is spending 1.5 billion
a month in Afghanistan, 4 billion a month in Iraq, and a billion or
two a month in Israel. These are guesses, public numbers, real
numbers are closely held secrets. The actual costs that the US is
sustaining militarily right now are not sustainable by the current
debilitated US economy, and there is every reason to think the
situation is going to get worse.

While Israel does presently have sufficient armed force to defend
itself quite well, that will not prove adequate in the long run.
The demise of militaristic states that could not or would not get
their shit together politically, economically, and socially, is run
of the mill, happens all the time. The political dimension is the
most important one. I point to the Soviet Union as a recent example.

I see little reason for optimism, short of a radical improvement in
the competence of the Israeli government, and I see little likelihood
of that.

Israel has sizable industry and continues to gain contracts with nations such as Turkey, India and China. With developing economic independence (seen as an ideal) as well as peace with the Palestinians, the foreign aid requirement will be reduced.

in the presence of a full political settlement.

are waiting for what they deserve. A better life. Israel has the power to remove the occupation and help facilitate this. It will not. I side with the Palestinians and for peace.

that "they" do also. "They" should build a better life.

Thanks for agreeing.

"We are all Palestinians"

I haven't seen much in the way of a Pro Palestinian stance here.

Everyday, we are all Palestinians.

Israel must withdraw from the occupied territories. Return the land to the Palestinians and live side by side with the Palestinians.

Israel does not want this because the government in Tel Aviv believes in a "greater Israel".

Meanwhile, the U.S. "roadmap" is stuck in a dead end.

Americanreborn

"We are all Palestinians"

Listen, here is the problem in the Middle East. I truly believe that most people on both sides want peace. The problem is the leaders on all sides. We need to get rid of Bush, Sharon, and Abbas. We need a Labor PM in Israel, a competent Palestinian PM who actually has influence, and a Democrat who is moderate on this situation in the White House. We were so close to peace with Clinton, Barak, and Arafat. We need to work very hard for peace in the ME.

I think he needs to learn a few things, like you can't compirmise with terrorists to that extent, but I still think he is dedicated to peace and he can gain influence if he shows results. Arafat, however, needs to go.

and he just strikes me as weak and impotent. I don't doubt that he wants peace, I just think that Arafat still plays a great role in Palestinian affairs.

But I think that if the US and Israel help him, he can gain a lot of influence.

Sharon's base are the people who killed Rabin, the charming "committee for safe roads", Kach militants and their sympathizers that he does backflips to try and appease but it's Israel's bitch Abbas that needs to shape up.

I was replying to another post that advocated the removal of Sharon. I support the removal of Sharon. I also support the retaining of Abbas, as long as he can crack down on murderous terrorists.

I wouldn't support an Israeli candidate who wanted to form death squads to get rid of the hard right Jewish terrorists either :shrug:

and Barak's "generous" offer was anything but.

KATHLEEN and BILL CHRISTISON'S followup to their interview with Jeff Halper entitled, "Like Being Autistic with Power."

It Need Not Be This Way

Final Thoughts from Palestine

by KATHLEEN and BILL CHRISTISON
former CIA political analysts

snip
A Ramallah man who has a three-year-old daughter tells us that, in her three-year-old world, Israeli tanks are the monsters that children elsewhere only imagine. Tanks destroy and terrorize. When she is angry with her older sister, she calls her sister "a tank." This is the worst pejorative she can think of.

***

On our first encounter at an Israeli checkpoint, driving into Ramallah from Jerusalem, we had a minor argument with a brash young Israeli soldier. "What do you think of the IDF?" he asked as he looked over our passports. Thinking fast--not wanting either to endorse the IDF or so antagonize him that he wouldn't let us through, we said something feeble like, "It's all right for an army, but we wish you wouldn't be so hard on the Palestinians." This ticked him off, and he started raging about Palestinian suicide bombers: there has been a bus bombing in early March in Haifa, on a bus route that he traveled frequently, and didn't we know that he or one of his friends could have been killed? All Palestinians are dirt, he said, looking directly at our Palestinian taxi driver, and they're all alike. Now acutely conscious of his insults to our driver, we became a little bolder, agreeing that deaths in suicide bombings were tragic but noting that Israel has been killing Palestinians too. This really set him off, and he ranted on for a while with further insults to Palestinians and, when we didn't respond, handed us back our passports and waved us on. We resisted the temptation to point out to him that, as American taxpayers, we help pay his salary and he should stop acting like an arrogant bastard. We also resisted the temptation to tell him that, just as suicide bombings lead him to think that all Palestinians are alike and to treat them all shabbily as a result, his atrocious behavior might lead us to think that all Israelis are as arrogant and unpleasant as he is and to treat them accordingly. Palestinians endure this kind of abuse every day of their lives, and most of those whom we told of our encounter laughed at our anger because this kind of disrespect and humiliation is the least serious aspect by far of what they face under occupation.

snip
The destruction throughout the West Bank and Gaza is unspeakable. There are really no words to describe it adequately. Frequent piles of rubble along city streets testify to homes demolished because some hapless Palestinian could not obtain a permit to build or because Israel decided a terrorist lived there; piles of dirt block through-traffic on city streets and rural roads because Israel has decided that Palestinians have no right to travel here or there; some village roads simply end abruptly where Israel has built a limited access highway where Palestinians are forbidden to drive; concrete and steel and ugly cuts in the land have replaced the spectacularly beautiful terraced, olive-studded hillsides around Jerusalem where Israel is building vast highways to accommodate a few hundred thousand Israelis who don't want to have to associate with the few million Palestinians in whose midst they live; as a further measure to impede movement around the West Bank, Israel has dug trenches across some roads and occasionally around villages, where ugly mounds of earth now mar the landscape; in some areas the digging has cut sewer lines, encircling some villages around Nablus with raw sewage that people must somehow cross in order to leave the village; once beautiful olive groves are filled with trees totally or partially cut down or burned because angry Israeli settlers have decided they don't like Palestinians; hilltops are covered by new Israeli outposts with ugly temporary trailers on cleared land where olive groves once stood; roads are torn up by Israeli tank treads, potholed or with deep cuts along their length because Israel thinks (1) that it's a legitimate tactic of civilian control to rampage in tanks through city streets and (2) that exercising military control over another people's civilian population is legitimate in the first place; in the spring rains, mud is pervasive because Israel has fully or partially torn up the paved roads, piled dirt in the roads, dug trenches, ruined sidewalks, torn up the landscape.

snip
Not only is it not true that we are unaware of the existence of "good" Israelis who oppose Sharon: we are well aware of and have made a point over the years, in talks and articles, of praising those courageous Israeli journalists, scholars, and activists who have defied their government's oppressive policies by working with Palestinians to end the occupation and ease restrictions on Palestinians; until going to Palestine, in fact, most of our information on the degree of Israeli oppression came from precisely these Israelis. But this woman's effort to exonerate Israeli society because there are some ambiguities in it, or because a minuscule proportion of that society actively opposes the government's policies, is a bit of a whitewash. It is not "sticking it to the Israelis" to report on what the Israeli government is doing in the occupied territories, and even to do so without constant reference to those few Israelis who oppose the government and its policies. Israelis as a society elected the Sharon government to do their business for them, and Israelis as a society must therefore share the responsibility whenever the government's actions arouse criticism. All of Israeli society lives within no more than a few miles of Jenin and Nablus, of the Palestinian lands confiscated for Israeli roads and settlements, of the Palestinian homes demolished, of the Palestinian installations bombed to rubble, of the checkpoints. Not to know, not to care, that this is happening is far more than a mere ambiguity. It is a gross dereliction of responsibility, and all of Israeli society must be called to account--most particularly because Israel is a democracy and has a choice. The fact that some Israelis do know and do criticize does not exonerate "the Israelis" as a whole. As Gideon Levy has said, one must wonder about "a society whose spokesmen get so pathologically excited by weapons and killing."

***

There is ambiguity in Palestinian society as well, and Palestinians react very differently to Israel's policies and Israel's domination over them. Some become suicide bombers; the vast majority do not. The vast majority are willing to live in peace with Israel, and have been willing for the last couple of decades, if Israel will give them a decent small state that's truly independent and sovereign. The vast majority do not care about vengeance, as long as Israel will leave them alone. We met Palestinians who are angry, Palestinians who are resigned, but not many who hate. One woman spoke with anger of what she and her neighbors endure and after a long disquisition said simply, "We are down now. But when we have our breath, we will know our target. We will make them eat what we eat." One man, on the other hand, more despairing, less angry, said that "God is very angry with the people here." When asked if he meant that God was only angry with the Israelis for what they do in the occupied territories, he said, "No. God must not like the Palestinians either, or he'd help them."

___________

Here is the Halper Interview, Like Being Autistic with Power

http://www.counterpunch.org/christison03292003.html

____________

A recent article written by Jeff Halper on the mechanisms of Israeli Occupation

The 94 Percent Solution
A Matrix of Control

Jeff Halper

(Jeff Halper is coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and teaches anthropology at Ben-Gurion University.)

http://www.merip.org/mer/mer216/216_halper.html