The evil decree

By Haaretz Editorial


The scene shown Tuesday night on television was one of the most harsh and shameful seen here in recent times: a two-and-a-half-year-old boy, Ahmed Samut from Khan Yunis, and a nine-and-a-half-year-old girl, Sausan Jaafari, of Rafah, as they entered the Erez crossing alone, after being torn from the arms of their weeping parents.

The two children have heart conditions and need urgent surgery to save their lives. Wolfson Medical Center in Holon agreed to care for them, as part of their Save a Child's Heart program that saves the lives of children around the world.

The hospital is to be praised for the project. The editors at Channel 10 News and reporter Shlomi Eldar are also to be praised. Israel and its security establishment, however, deserve a mark of disgrace.
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The parents of the two children, both fathers and mothers, were not permitted by the Israel Defense Forces' coordination and liaison administration to accompany their children to the fateful surgery. They are "denied entry" to Israel. The fact that Sausan's parents had accompanied her to previous operations at Wolfson did not change the evil decree. It is indeed a decree of unparalleled evil. Only the elderly uncle of one of the children was allowed to go with them.

The images of children walking alone on their way to the frightening surgery should have reverberated from one end of the country to the other. They should have disturbed all Israelis, no matter what their political outlook. All parents in Israel should have put themselves in the place of those unfortunate parents.

Israel must not take inordinate pride in the very fact that it provides medical care for two sick children. In the state of siege it has imposed on Gaza, Israel bears heavy moral responsibility for the welfare and health of the besieged. It should also be noted that the siege is preventing Gaza's Shifa Hospital from expanding its departments as planned, due to lack of building materials in Gaza. But the decision not to allow parents to accompany their children, which is also made in many other cases in which patients are denied entry to Israel for life-saving treatments, is insufferable.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/943343.html

I wish the good people over there would take back control of their country, as I hope we do here.

It appears to be missing.

The policy is lacking in humanity, but you can't treat it as meaning *all of Israel* is lacking in humanity - what about the editors of Haaretz who published this?

Just as one should never say that 'America' is lacking in humanity because of the truly horrible actions perpetrated by the Bush government.

Note the archaic use.
As far as America goes, we have lost our humanity by allowing the Bush regime to continue slaughtering and supporting the slaughter of innocent human being all over the world. Our history is long and bloody, full of slavery and genocide.
Disagree? Ask a Lakota or a Cherokee or a black person or a Mexican American.

It is certainly a most inhumane policy!

Right at the moment, a similarly inhumane action by the British authorities is in the news- and I hope this gets reversed before too late:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7184359.stm

These ones, for instance:

'Israel and its security establishment, however, deserve a mark of disgrace.'

'Israel must not take inordinate pride in the very fact that it provides medical care for two sick children. In the state of siege it has imposed on Gaza, Israel bears heavy moral responsibility for the welfare and health of the besieged.'

Heads should roll over this.

with could well have serious impact on whether or not the children survive the surgery and recovery period. a patients mental state is one of the biggest factors.
If Israel refuses to relent, which they most certainly should (relent that is), then perhaps the Israeli Arab community could step up and find a family or families willing to "foster" these kids while they are in Israel.

With the highest representatives of our "family values" government in Israel one would hope they would say something, but I am not holding my breath.

Can you imagine how that 2 year old is feeling, not having any understanding of why their parents aren't there?

whether one agrees to it or not is something else: after surgery there are multiple checkups....lots of entering and exiting israel for those involved. The Palestinians in the past have used those medical passes to kill israelis.......(one attempt was meant for the ER room of a hospital.....).

In one case they father (or mother, i forget which) simply lived at the hospital while their child underwent surgery and recovery..

___

i personally think that egypt should be pressured to step in and solve the whole problem.....

every thread you post in for weeks now. We get it.

i thought "humanitarian values" were the most important.....

i dont get much response to it.....sometimes: Israel controls egypt, roads arent big enough, rafah entrance to small.....and other rather feeble excuses....got any new ones?

I was following this thread and wondering how in hell could Israel be so cruel. I couldn't imagine any reason that could justify their decision. But then I couldn't imagine someone using a humanitarian medical pass as a way to kill the innocent civilians of that country.

People wonder why I never criticize Israel. Every time I get close something like this turns up.

While it'd appeal to those who like to think all Palestinians are bomb-toting terrorists or supporters of them, most people regardless of their views on the conflict would quite rightly be repulsed by what they read in the Ha'aretz editorial. I'm disgusted and think the Ha'aretz editorial has gotten it right when they use the word evil to describe what's happened. Seriously ill children need their parents when they're in unfamiliar and scary surroundings like a hospital, and while the nine year old might understand that her parents can't be with her, there's no way the two year old boy can. To separate a child from its parents when the child is facing a life-saving surgery is incredibly cruel and heartless...

Did you read the editorial, pelsar? If anyone were to try to argue security concerns as a reason why it's okay to do something like this, why is it that Sausan's parents had previously been able to enter Israel to accompany her for previous operations?

And the editorial had this to say about the 'excuse' of security concerns:

'Israel is taking the name of security in vain. No security consideration can excuse closing the crossing to the sick children's parents, who are under no suspicion and who are not allowed in only because of their young age.

The security establishment has enough tools to make exceptions to the accepted practices that it has put in place arbitrarily, and to know how to filter out the humanitarian cases that must be allowed to cross. Sausan's and Ahmed's parents have the basic human right to nurse their children through their most difficult hours.

It is not too late. The security establishment should immediately allow the parents to enter Israel and ease its decrees in similar humanitarian cases. This is not about security, and it is not only about the fate of these families; it is about Israel's moral image. The image that came through on television Tuesday night raises some very doleful thoughts.'

As to yr comment about Egypt. Have you thought this out at all? What do you think are the reasons that an Israeli hospital offers to carry out these operations? Why do you think it is that Channel 10 News in Israel don't agree with you and played a role in arranging the operations in Israel? How would you feel if a country stopped Israelis from going there for treatment (or in this case not allowing the parents of a very sick child to enter) because due to the violence of a minority of their population, the entire population is deemed to be potentially violent and murderous. How would you like it if you had a seriously ill child who needs life-saving surgery and someone informs you that they think some other country other than the hospital in the country their child is going to should arrange something? You know what? I'd tell the nasty turd to fuck off if I caught them saying something like that to you, and I'd say it to anyone who says that to or about the situation in the editiorial...

So, do you agree with what's been done to those children and their parents?

Palestinians with medical passes and pleading medical reasons have used those very excuses to kill israelis...not all, but enough....i suppose you can pretend that it didnt happen.....except that the dead israelis are still dead.

you asked why is it that Sausan's parents had previously been able to enter Israel to accompany her for previous operations? .... The security establishment has enough tools to make exceptions to the accepted practices that it has put in place arbitrarily, and to know how to filter out the humanitarian cases that must be allowed to cross. .

... obviously not, some Palestinians who had operations in israel then turned using their passes and tried to/or did kill Israelis....does that answer your question?

Have you thought this out at all? What do you think are the reasons that an Israeli hospital offers to carry out these operations?

Israel also has a humanitarian side to it...and its been shown time and time again, even taking hamasnkim and fatah wounded..and that is very good of us.....
However times have changed, and even doing a humanitarian thing such as this risks the lives of israelis, the question is should israel risk the lives of its citizens to help Palestinians when their own local govt is trying their best to kill israelis......


How would you like it if you had a seriously ill child who needs life-saving surgery.....
or.....and since its happened before...how would i feel if one of those with the medical passes killed my son/daughter at the eraz border control?

----

btw i agree:
Seriously ill children need their parents when they're in unfamiliar and scary surroundings like a hospital, and while the nine year old might understand that her parents can't be with her, there's no way the two year old boy can. To separate a child from its parents when the child is facing a life-saving surgery is incredibly cruel and heartless...

which is why israel should not put itself into such a position in the first place.....

You didn't answer me when I asked you, so given yr strong argument in favour of it, I think it's safe to assume that you support what was a disgusting and evil thing to do...

I asked you if this security 'excuse' was valid why Sausan's parents were previously allowed to accompany her for previous operations but not this time, but yr answer doesn't make any sense. Want to try again? Why would Israel allow the parents previously for what sounds like more than one operation, but not this time?

I couldn't give a flying fuck if Israel has a humanitarian side to it when this sort of evil crap is happening and some people are so callous that they'll defend it.

Clearly the hospital doesn't think it's endangering the lives of Isrealis, nor does the media, nor does the Ha'aretz editorial staff. And in fact, I kind of doubt the Israeli govt will, as I suspect this may be the result of some callous and moronic officer in the security services rather than Israeli policy. But you think otherwise, so clearly what would all of them know? ;)

it was at erez when some soldiers were killed by a Palestinian women who was returning for treatment at hospital...

it may not make sense to you...but she did have a bomb and did kill people

....or this attempt
http://www.beyondimages.info/b146.html
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its not the hospitals job to deal with security, their professions deal with the saving of lives as it should be, so too with the media, each in its own profession.

some people are so callous that they'll defend it.
so why do you think young israelis should risk their lives to save Palestinians....when that risk means some may (have) be killed?....(.that sounds pretty callous to me to ignore the dead israelis)

So what are you saying? That because of that one instance every Palestinian must be suspected of the same? Am I to assume that the security entering Israel is so incompetent and basic that there is no other way to clear people as a security risk other than to send them away?

You've still to point out how anyone is risking their life in this instance. But if you want to you can look at it this way. Us Australians who drive on the roads risk our lives every day and we're not even trying to save a life in the process. I doubt Israelis are any different, despite the attitudes of some that they are the only group of people who should be wrapped up in cotton wool....

You've still to point out how anyone is risking their life in this instance

am i missing something here?... suicide bombers get close to israelis and kill them...they have been grandmothers, mothers, kids etc....all types at all times, all conditions.....there is nothing "holy" about hospital passes and humanitarian issues that a bomb cant/wasnt included in the past.

Am I to assume that the security entering Israel is so incompetent....sometimes yes....thats why there are israeli dead from those suicide bombers.
--------

If you think we should risk our lives to save Palestinians just say it plainly...dont need road scenario,

because that is what its all about: israelis risking their lives to save Palestinians...and I'm sure some israeli parents who lost their kids to those kind of scenarios (humanitarian gestures) would be against it, and not want to see others killed.

That's just plain pathetic...

You know what? If Israel's security is as incompetent as you seem to think it is, then why should Palestinians lose their lives or be humiliated or treated in disgusting ways like the parents in this OP because Israel is too damn lazy or stupid to carry out any sort of basic security check?

You don't seem to understand, pelsar. No-one but a person who sees every Palestinian as a potential terrorist would think that Israelis are risking their lives.

. . and increasing the severity of the restrictions at checkpoints and for travel into and out of Israel - the number of violent deaths has been greatly reduced these last few months. There are several hundred Israeli and Palestinain families not missing limbs or family members to early violent death because of those restrictions.

It's unfortunate that those restrictions (collective punishment as you call it) have to be there but I'm happy for those families nonetheless.

So you do suspect those parents of being wannabee suicide bombers?
as i understand it....your assuming that parents cant be suicide bombers.

past bombers, attempted bombers have included:
kids, grandmothers, mothers, the pregnant and niece, the sick, a donkey, males of all kinds, students, bombs on babies...in fact just about every possibility that one can think of...

and yes...our security services see every Palestinian entering israel as a security threat:


you dont think much of the Palestinians if you think a simple basic security check can find a bomb...they are far more sophisticated than that.....

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let me summarize what i understand your saying: A Palestinian mother/father bringing their child for treatment in israel could not become a suicide bomber, not now and not in the future visits to the hospital....and this is because they love their children more than they want to kill israelis.

not true:
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1536576

Yes or no?

as i understand it....your assuming that parents cant be suicide bombers.

Huh? I've got no idea what yr talking about there...

you dont think much of the Palestinians if you think a simple basic security check can find a bomb...they are far more sophisticated than that.....

Yes, I should remember that not to suspect every Palestinian, even parents of gravely ill children, of being a suicide bomber is to not think much of the Palestinian people ;)

No, let me summarise what I understand yr saying. You support what happened to those parents and children. Don't try to deny it or say yr still making yr mind up. Yr arguing so strongly in support of what was done to them that it's absolutely clear you feel no empathy, no nothing towards other parents if they're Palestinian...

they do not get an innocent pass, just because they're child is sick......so yes, every Palestenain entering israel is to be a suspect.
______

your turn:
why do you think they cant be suicide bombers?
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1536576

i love my children, but as muslims, we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedent to the personal interest: Mariam Farahat, elected member of the PA Parliament....3 sons were suicide bombers

____
you seem to say, they cant possibly be suicide bombers because they love their children... history of the Palestinians, and the dead israelis, has shown that not to be true

..of being a murderous and violent extremist religious type. Personally I find that sort of attitude to be incredibly ignorant and bigoted, but if yr saying it's the liberal way, then who am I to argue?

What other nasty stuff do you support? Racial profiling? Punishing entire populations because they're of the same ethnic group as someone who committed attacks against civilians?

your turn:
why do you think they cant be suicide bombers?

Yeah, I see how wrong I was now. Clearly these parents are just faking their children's illnesses in order to do the suicide bomber thing. I've now seen the light and suspect that every Palestinian is a potential suicide bomber, every Israeli is a murderous and violent extremist who kills Palestinian civilians, and every American goes out and kills Iraqi civilians....

How hard is it to search someone at a border crossing? What's these sophisticated methods of hiding you claim Palestinians use? Do they shove the explosives up their arses and waddle their way across the border or something?

and you receive one......

please do me the courtesy of the same, so that i dont have to try to interpret it:
why do you think they cant be suicide bombers?

(I believe that PA Parliament member, Mariam Farahat, might disagree with you, so perhaps you might address her views as well)

____

in answer to your questions about bombs, they are not always hidden on the person. Erez is known for Palestinian tunnels underneath, one method used, bombs are planted previous to the meeting place, and when the israelis are exposed, a phone call is placed and the bomb goes off...other methods involved knowing when and where and mortars are used....

Yes or no?

btw, I did answer yr question. It's that bit where I copied yr question and replied to it in my previous post...

Thanks for the answer about the bombs. I've got one question. If it's supposedly so damn easy to do a bombing, then how come there's been none for so long now? How come you think these parents are going to buck the trend of no bombings?

my answer to your question:
So you do suspect those parents of being suicide bombers? was yes....your turn, and i repeat my question:

why do you think they cant be suicide bombers?

(I believe that PA Parliament member, Mariam Farahat, might disagree with you, so perhaps you might address her views as well)

________________

how come there's been none for so long now

because its not so easy

JERUSALEM: After nine months without a suicide bombing in Israel, a Palestinian walked from Egypt across the open desert border, hitched a ride from an Israeli motorist and then blew himself up Monday, Jan 29

doesnt mean it doesnt happen or is not being planned.....

Its not so easy to set up bombs, a lot get caught (almost every other day by the fence in gaza), but some dont......The checkpoints in the westbank still catch the bombers, its just not much in the news as its no longer interesting (wall + checkpoints)...and i suspect as the success rate goes down, (to almost zero) its probably harder to recruit, but thats just a guess.

But it doesn't really matter. You've made it very very clear that you see all Palestinians as being potential suicide bombers and support them all being treated badly because of it. I'll be honest with you, pelsar. You'd scream blue murder if Israelis were treated this way, and I find it both disgusting and disturbing that you feel this way about ordinary Palestinians...

Instead of making stupid assumptions based on posts you claim you don't understand, why don't you focus on putting yrself in the shoes of one of these families and trying to understand how they feel. If you suspect these families in the OP were planning to carry out suicide bombings, provide some proof that *they* were indeed going to do that, but judging them solely based on their ethnicity is really horrible...

because you sure have avoided almost everyone of my questions.....(see previous posts)

first a response:
You've made it very very clear that you see all Palestinians as being potential suicide bombers...yes i do, until proven otherwise (i.e. having gone through a security check)

and support them all being treated badly because of it...no i dont
________________

you seriously cant write this:
If you suspect these families in the OP were planning to carry out suicide bombings, provide some proof....sometimes the only proof is when the suicide bomber blows himself up, taking innocent people with them.....there is more than enough proof of those.

I get the idea that you dont like the idea of saying every Palestinian is a potential bomber...unfortunately the facts show otherwise

the jihadnikim took advantage of every "loophole" in the israeli security net and have used ambulances, pregnant women, kids etc, there is not a single segment of the Palestinian society that has not had its "own suicide bomber..there is no profiling (used to be).

Worse they elected a woman to the parliament who is proud of sending her 3 kids to die and kill as suicide bombers and promotes that very idea...should her influence be ignored?

so the question here to be answered: why shouldnt every Palestinian entering israel be suspected and checked?...which ones should get a "free pass" and why?
_____

i realize that you can offer no suggestions to stop the suicide bombers,, perhaps thats why you dont see israelis as risking their lives when Palestenians enter israel....and when a suicide bomber does succeed because of imperfect security/human error....as you wrote, its like a car accident

_____

and a final note:
why don't you focus on putting yrself in the shoes of one of these families and trying to understand how they feel... actually i cant imagine how it is to have my child taken from me for an operation when i wont be there....its must be a horrible feeling...almost as bad as my friends parents who lost their child at the ezra crossing .....only he wont be coming back.

honesty is what we've got......since it never did get down to what i actually think about the actual interaction.....if israel is going to do such operations than in my opinion they should let a single family member in, set them up in an apt nearby and "keep them there" until the released from the hospital...with all further checkups being done in gaza (with the assumption that the proper equipment is in place).

if such things cant be done, then israel should not even get involved.....

and the scary stuff?...what the Palestinian member of parliament says (Mariam Farahat)... certainly is, not so much for israel, but for the Palestinians, as i see it.

How does your view, better yet, your prescrption, differ from those on the far right?

How do you live with that kind of fear?

every israeli i know of these days....when seeing a Palestenains wonders for a split second if they are a suicide bomber. It used to much worse....as their were actual bombs blowing up in our malls and busses..but with the wall and the better checks its lessened...

how do we live with it?...we've been living with fear of attacks constantly, from jordanian guards opening up on a high schoolers on a trip, to egyptian guards shooting down israeli tourists, to busses blowing up.....

I've seen you tell me what I supposedly think, and I've answered other questions, though clearly not the way you want them to be answered...

Thanks for being honest and admitting you see all Palestinians as potential suicide bombers. Y'know, I was sitting next to a man on the bus the other morning and seeing as how I now think all men are potential rapists until proven otherwise, I kicked him in the nuts and moved to a safer seat. And don't get me started about Israelis! They're all potential murderous thugs who beat the shit out of the elderly and kill innocent Palestinians until proven otherwise. Don't you understand why yr views about Palestinians and yr support of what is an inhumane thing is so wrong? It's the sort of thinking that feeds into things like racial profiling and discrimination against people based on their nationality or ethnicity. How can you say you don't support Palestinians being treated badly when you support what's happened in the OP? Or don't you think those families were treated badly?

You claim you think every Palestinian is a potential suicide bomber unless it's been proven otherwise by going through a security check. Can you explain why the parents of these children weren't allowed to go through a security check so it could be proven to people like you that they aren't suicide bombers?

Another thing I find disgusting is this mindset of yrs that these parents would give a shit about anything other than being with their children. I know what it's like to have a very sick child and not be sure if they'll survive their stint in hospital. All I can remember being able to think about was my child and everything else just didn't come into it, but of course Palestinian parents must be different to other parents and they've probably been plotting to leave their children's bedsides for a quick smoko and a bit of random exploding and thinking to themselves how lucky they are that their children are so sick. Do you honestly think that these parents are such evil people?

so the question here to be answered: why shouldnt every Palestinian entering israel be suspected and checked?...which ones should get a "free pass" and why?

You seem to have lost the point here a fair bit. No-one's suggesting that anyone entering Israel shouldn't go through security checks. Quite a few people have suggested that turning parents of seriously ill children back without even going through a security check is inhumane and callous. How hard would it have been to do a security check on these parents?

i realize that you can offer no suggestions to stop the suicide bombers,, perhaps thats why you dont see israelis as risking their lives when Palestenians enter israel....and when a suicide bomber does succeed because of imperfect security/human error....as you wrote, its like a car accident

That's not what I wrote at all. I pointed out to you that Israelis aren't risking their lives by allowing these parents to be with their children and pointed out that everyone risks their lives in some way or other from the minute they walk out their front doors...

And I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be offering suggestions on how to stop something that's not happening...

Worse they elected a woman to the parliament who is proud of sending her 3 kids to die and kill as suicide bombers and promotes that very idea...should her influence be ignored?

Huh? Those parents did that? Okay, since yr running with that sort of nonsense, that's being a tad hypocritical given the way you elected a terrorist (Benny Elon) and religious nutters who advocate the forced transfer of both Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs...

to see every Palestinian as a potential suicide bomber (as it is to see every male as a potential rapist), sure...but i bet a girl who was raped looks at men differently, and i doubt you would blame her.....

At the sametime i bet that when the Palestenians see an IDF jeep approach them, they get all nervous, wondering what those soldiers want from them now?...and when the jeep passes as it does 99% of the time, they feel relieved.....

are those Palestenains wrong?....no they arent....nor am i, given the history of the suicide bombers.... neither the Palestinians nor us israelis were taught to fear the other, its come out of bitter experience. It will change in time, slowly......in the past, they didnt look twice at our jeeps and a suicide bomber was non existant..we've all learned by experience....one doesnt "unlearn" that so easy.

_____

a bit of details about the security checks....they probably were checked out and i have no idea if they were kept out because of some general policy and bureaucracy or some other reason (was the brother killed and they might want vengeance? we cant read minds). It could be they are in fact no security risk.....my initial comments were simply to show that its not so simple....Israelis have been killed for being sympathetic to the Palestinians, that is simply a fact, not to be ignored. The security services get really pissed when that happens.

as far as my personal opinion in this, is that if israel is doing the operation than (as it has before) it should let in a single parent, and set up a place for them to stay and return them when possible...i just never got that far in my posts....

My mentioning the Palestinian member of Parliament was to point out that not all mothers agree with you...and we have no idea if this particular mother with the sick child does or does not agree with her (reading minds).....thats why its not nonsense

If I don't make sense to you in this post, pull me up, coz I really want you to understand where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree with it, okay?

I've used women and rape as a parallel to the distrust felt by you, an Israeli when it comes to things like suicide bombings, though I know it's not an exact parallel. I know some women do look at men differently after a rape and can have great difficulties forming relationships, but there's also some who realise that it takes a certain personality flaw to be a rapist and most men don't have that flaw, and even though no-one can look at a man and know if he's a rapist or not, it's not right to treat all men like they're potential rapists and go all psycho on them in some sort of pre-emptive strike....

You mentioned the son of a friend was killed at the border crossing. Even though it wasn't yr child, you feel the empathy to put yrself in yr friends shoes and think 'what if it was my child?' Which is why I know you can and do feel empathy for Palestinian parents. Like rape victims, parents of children killed in the conflict react in different ways, ranging from anger and mistrust of 'the other', to grieving over their child and feeling hate for their killers, but understanding that this doesn't reflect on an entire population. If yr friend isn't already aware of this group, the Parents Circle is a group of bereaved Israeli and Palestinian parents. There's not a lot on their website, but they do have contact details and their address and I think a big part of getting past the deep mistrust is for Palestinians and Israelis who are sometimes going through the same thing to interact with each other...

as far as my personal opinion in this, is that if israel is doing the operation than (as it has before) it should let in a single parent, and set up a place for them to stay and return them when possible...i just never got that far in my posts....

Then yr view on it is the same as mine, because I think that's what should have happened. I just doubt and hope that in this case it's some sort of govt policy, but an over-zealous security officer and that this decision will be swiftly overturned...

My mentioning the Palestinian member of Parliament was to point out that not all mothers agree with you...and we have no idea if this particular mother with the sick child does or does not agree with her (reading minds).....thats why its not nonsense.

I know not all mothers agree with me. I can think of one or two Israeli mothers I've read about in Hebron who would be more in tune with the Palestinian member of Parliament. But like I said, we can't assume or suspect that everyone is marching in lockstep with them,...

i believe it comes down to this:..that you believe we should be willing to take a risk our lives in order to insure that there is no collective punishment of the Palestinians. Hence your example of the our risk being similar to driving on an Australian road and the blaming all males....(a rape victim)

It may sound horrible, but when the Palestinians had freedom of movement, enough suicide bombers took advantage of that to kill israelis....and their handlers were very smart people and knew how to get around every weak spot in the security net that attempted to differentiate the bombers and the innocent.

only when the collective punishment included all the Palestinians everywhere (suspected all-no exceptions), and a massive wall, was the risk reduced to an acceptable level to us. Before the wall combined with the roadblocks.....the "risk" of israelis getting blown up was simply not acceptable to us, since we were having bombs all over the country what seemed like everyday...today virtually zero.

i dont know which roadblocks are "punishment oriented" which ones are critical, There is much talk about removing some.....i cant say if its reasonable or not, i do know that if they do remove some and then they have a successful suicide bomber.....what do we say to those new victims?.... Palestinian freedom of movement is more important than your lives?......

the answer whatever one chooses means someone loses out their civil/human rights...... presently its a win/lose situation

so lets go with the rape victim example- as I have stated in the past I was married to a Black for a number of years; lets say that during that marriage I was raped by White men, would it then be reasonable for me to approach all White men as potential rapists regardless of circumstance? To take it a step further not only mentally approach (thinking these guy might rape me) but treat them as if they were, what ever that would entail holding a gun, taser, or mace on them during contact and using it when I felt threatened? After all I do have the to feel safe don't I? And gee it works it has been x number of years and I have not been raped. As for the "guilty" White guys well a couple of you did so you might too or your all collectively guilty so take your knocks and roll with it cause thats what you get?
Truly does this sound reasonable?

but I'll play along...

if the"white man" who you fear is a rapist, broke into your home, tunneled underneath your neighborhood, brought weapons to use against you to the house next door, wrote about how his hope was to rape you any chance he got, and in fact, would dress up as a woman to try to fool you into thinking he really wasn't a potential white man rapist, well yes, I think you'd begin to think your safety was a bit more important than whatever the white man might be feeling.

If the white man stopped digging tunnels in your neighborhood and breaking into your house, you probably wouldn't have as much fear.

Does that sound reasonable?

If indeed this was going on I would expect the authorities to arrest him or them, but to expect that all White men even cross dressing ones be arrested would be ureasonable.

i believe it comes down to this:..that you believe we should be willing to take a risk our lives in order to insure that there is no collective punishment of the Palestinians. Hence your example of the our risk being similar to driving on an Australian road and the blaming all males....(a rape victim)

Considering you said exactly the same thing a few posts ago, and I distinctly remember correcting you on it, it's pretty clear that yr not interested in what other people believe, so this seems like a pretty damn useless conversation to me.

probably because i think in purely practical terms....

as i understand it you believe that we shouldnt suspect every Palestenians of being a suicide bomber and hence shouldnt treat them all as potential bombers....ok....lets try that.....so what does that actually mean for the soldier and officer at the checkpoint.

does he let a certain segment of the Palestinian population go through without checking them?...this will make the lines go much faster no doubt....

my apologies...agree with 45

how on earth is this any different then trying to cook up the most hateful anti-Semitic stereotypes?

A Jew is a human being

An Arab is a human being

An Israeli is a human being

A Palestinian is a human being

The vast majority love their children and hope for a better future for them. And worry themselves sick when their children are ill.

but judging them solely based on their ethnicity is really horrible...

i realize the capital crime here on the DU is calling someone a racists......and saying that someone is " judging someone based on their ethnicity " is akin to that.....except the potential suicide bomber is actually based on their nationality, place of residence..... not their genes, nor their facial features, nor skin color.

and you really didnt answer a single question of mine (one you did, but that was obviously very sarcastic....)...why not?

I think the term for those who stereotype an entire people based on their nationality would be a bigot...

But I'm kind of curious here. If you think it's a capital crime to call someone a racist, then why do you refer to other posters here 'cyber-racists'?

that the "racist" is the "worst of the worst" here....but if it fits the poster, then i do believe its appropriate to use it (the "capital crime"..is just for effect). But seriously i have a real problem with the idea that a sites content is automatically disqualified because of the owners or the editorial staff or whatever, has a different political view....i find that kind intolerance to be "bad" (i cant think of a more sophisticated word here.....)


as far as stereotyping the Palestinians as "all suicide bombers...of course not.... it just that since they come in all shapes, sizes, religions, intelligence, IQ levels, educational levels, gender,dress, age....we dont know who is and who isnt..and there are enough dead israelis who, when played the "sympathy card"...."fell for it" and are now dead.....

i realize you dont accept that, but then its not your life on the line.....

You don't find bigotry to be intolerance, but find an aversion to having bigoted crap from bigoted sites posted here to be intolerant?

Pelsar, there's plenty of Israelis who would be appalled after reading that editorial, so how come you don't think their lives are on the line?

I have found some very very intelligent people to be religious and i dont understand that....and they can easily be called bigots, though they will deny it and argue very well that their point of view is just..... and i think their viewpoint should be heard as well....hence the definition of bigots is not so clear, its seems to be defined by those of a specific political viewpoint.


as far as being appalled....i have some rather bitter experiences at erez.....it tends to put a different perspective on things....

..it involves being prejudiced against other groups and holding irrational fears of the entire group. Those reasons can be religious, ethnic, nationalistic, or I guess political. Back before I joined DU I had an online American friend who used to proclaim to anyone who was reading that he was proudly bigoted against conservatives. And I really didn't realise what he meant until I'd struck up a wary friendship with a conservative who was pro-choice (the only issue we agreed on) and was given a choice of a friendship between the conservative and him....

And when it comes to religious bigotry, I figure as an atheist you might have had some similar experiences to me - eg being told by some ultra-religious yr morally bankrupt, going to hell etc. The strange thing is one of the most religious people I've met is a guy I work with who's an elder in the Church Of Latter Day Saints or whatever they're called. And there's not a shred of religious bigotry in him. When we've discussed religion, he's been tolerant of my views as an atheist and has never tried to shove religion down my throat. As opposed to a member of my family who's a fair weather Catholic who is always talking about me and hellfire and just trying to do the huge guilt trip :)

I don't doubt you would have different perspectives and of a much more personal nature than I'd ever have, and having had a connection to someone who died in the Sept 11 attack, I can understand how it does affect perspectives, cause for a while it really did affect mine...

. . of some of the very complex issues behind this story, here is a video that is fairly current that shows the hospital and interviews some of the doctors and medical workers involved with this heart surgery program and their motivations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXoAu_iLw64

From the video it is obvious that at least this last October Israel did allow (some) parents to cross with their children. The op article does not give a date but mentions that this happened last Tuesday on the TV news.

I would remind those so ready to accuse Israel of cruel and heartless decisions because they think the "entire population is deemed to be potentially violent and murderous" that this occurred when Bush was coming to Israel and during a time when Hamas was calling for increased attacks on Israel and calling for Bush to be met with bombs and booby traps.

I think any reasonable person could see that a bomb killing many civilians during Bush's visit would have set the peace efforts back considerably which is Hamas' goal. I have nothing to base this on but I suspect that the security people just said no exceptions this week - the kids are OK but no parents.


The article (editorial) BTW is a terrible example of hack journalism. It describes the children as being ripped from their weeping parents arms. Of course the parents were weeping. There children were going to be operated on and they might not live through it. I am sure no-one was tearing the children from their arms. If they didn't want the children to go for the operation they didn't have to take them to the border - unless someone wants to suggest that the cruel IDF is now taking sick children from their parents at gunpoint at the Erez crossing.

IMO the vicious hatred for Israel gets a little out of hand around here at times.

That you'd sit and defend such a disgusting thing comes as no surprise, nor that you'd label anyone who has a problem with it as hating Israel. Any country that would do this sort of thing deserves to be criticised for it, and despite yr belief that Israel shouldn't be criticised, even pro-Israeli posters in this thread have said what's happened is appalling....

Are you a parent? Most people who aren't parents would be able to feel revulsion over the refusal to let parents accompany their child for a life-saving operation, but not you. Instead you act as though you were there, and you know what people were thinking. And to state that parents of children who would die without the operation could have just decided not to take their children for the operation is one of the more vile and ignorant comments you've made in this forum...

I think it's appalling that some Palestinians are so obsessed with killing Israelis that they would use a medical pass program to do it.

I am appalled that some Palestinians want to kill innocent Israeli civilians so badly that the only way that Israel can protect its people is with walls and barriers and checkpoints.

I am appalled that some Palestinians want to kill innocent Israeli civilians so badly that the only way that Israel can protect its people is to be so careful when providing sick Palestinians access to Israeli hospitals that sometimes parents can't go with their sick kids.

Yeah, Violet that all sucks. And it really sucks when obsessed people with a deranged political agenda use those sick Palestinian kids as excuse to smear Israel.

The other posters in this thread were appalled not by the diversionary stuff you just trotted out, but by the treatment of those parents and children. But not you. No, there's nothing Israel ever does wrong in yr opinion....

And it really sucks when obsessed people with a deranged political agenda use those sick Palestinian kids as excuse to smear Israel.

I know with the extremist stance you have when it comes to do with anything to do with the conflict that you would tend to project yr own attitudes towards the conflict onto others, hence the 'obsessed people with a deranged political agenda' stuff, but for most people (indeed in this thread it includes those with pro-Israeli views), criticism of behaviour that is so callous and disgusting towards gravely ill children and their parents doesn't have anything to do with what country is doing it and who it is doing it to, but the fact that as human beings who feel empathy and compassion towards others, we can all put ourselves in those families shoes and feel sympathy for them, anger at whoever the moron was who gave this order, and varying levels of disgust at those who blindly support such a thing...

btw, fired off that email to those obsessed anti-Israel folk at Ha'aretz yet? What do they think they are? Israelis or something? ;)

.. that didn't make much sense. But I caught this part . .

" . . we can all put ourselves in those families shoes and feel sympathy for them, anger at whoever the moron was who gave this order . . "

Well, we can all feel sympathy for them. I do. But some people might be able to have some compassion for the Israelis too. It's a bit much calling people "morons" who are making difficult decisions and trade-offs trying to save the lives of as many innocent people as possible. It's not an easy job for the people who are there and whose lives are spent trying to figure out the best way to do it.

But then they don't have the wisdom and insight of a person like you on the other side of the world who read an editorial about it on the Internets and who therefore now knowns enough about it to call them "morons".

I think it's got more to do with the fact that unlike someone who is interested in genuine discussion, it's much easier to dismiss what you don't approve of by blindly labelling them rants, anti-Israel etc....

If you feel sympathy for what's happened to these families, maybe you could actually express that rather than defending what was a moronic and callous decision and getting all bothered because I think anyone who makes or supports a decision like this is a callous moron....

If the parents were Israeli, I'd feel the same level of compassion for them. But in this case they're not, so why are you wanting everyone to have compassion for an imaginary Israeli family?

But then they don't have the wisdom and insight of a person like you on the other side of the world who read an editorial about it on the Internets and who therefore now knowns enough about it to call them "morons".

Yeah, I should be more like you and label the Ha'aretz editorial staff as haters of Israel for daring to publish such low-brow journalistic swill. Then I should ride the tide of yr travels round the Internets as together we visit totally factual and journalistically high-standard sites such as Zombietimes, PyjamasMedia, and Arutz Sheva, and one or two other even better sites that I can't mention here lest they cause my post to be deleted! ;)

The rest of your post must be so devastating to my position that I can't understand it. Besides it's past my bedtime. Over and out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x193721

I honestly don't think anyone would be that stupid that they couldn't understand my post, but there's always a first time for something :)

That just shows another big difference between us. I admit that I am somewhat oblivious to such things preferring to focus on content rather than labels. Why don't you post a list in this thread of all the websites that would automatically elicit reflexive attacks from you if someone quotes anything from them. I could use some fresh bookmarks.

Sheez, all I was doing was correcting yr false claim that you'd never visited the Arutz Sheva site...

But since you mentioned you prefer to focus on content rather than labels, I guess things like endlessly stamping the label of 'The Narrative' and 'anti-Israel' on any site or content that doesn't comply with yr extremist views on the conflict aren't labels? Or do you think it's acceptable for it to be done to anything but conservative sources?

They are sometimes called nouns. They can encapsulate a set of meanings into a single word. That makes ideas flow more easily and accurately in a discussion. My use of the word "Narrative" does that because I carefully explained it several times and have supported my use of the term with evidence. I don't think anyone in this forum has any doubts as to what I mean by it use.

I have never objected to the use of an article or a quote or a posted comment from a source that promotes that "Narrative". Instead, I show why that Narrative is wrong as used and invalid - as I did here.* And we all know that's why you don't like my use of the term - not because it's a label.

Suggestion: You should try making a point occasionally that relates to your views instead of constantly harping on what's wrong with the grammatical styles of argument of those who disagree with you. The same goes with the embedded personal insults. All of that is really a distraction that makes it obvious that your view is largely senseless and easily made to look absurd. So, you prefer distracting the discussion away from your views. That's understandable.

And see, when you do that it forces others to spend time helping you distract the discussion away from any substance - like I am doing in this post. I'd really rather be discussing the I/P conflict - not the VC / McGhee conflict.

* http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=195730&mesg_id=195957

Hello? You dismissed Shlomo Ben-Ami out of hand by labelling him anti-Israel or some other guff and making fun of his surname. And let's not forget yr proclamations that B'Tselem and AI are just sooo anti-Israel...

I saw what it was that you linked to before it was deleted, and all that was there about yr *Narrative* Ezy-label was telling someone they were following the *narrative*. Am I interested in whether or not you've explained what *the narrative* is? Not particularly, because it's been used by you to dismiss just about every criticism of Israel no matter what it is....

Don't flatter yrself. Unlike you, I'm here to talk about the conflict and not about you. Which is why I'm now going to ask you a question about the OP. What do you think sdhould have happened when those parents and their children turned up at the border? If yr not interested in answering it, but continuing on yr usual path of insults and distraction (kind of ironic that someone who openly admitted two days ago that they have zero interest in having genuine discussions is now acccusing me of something similar), then yr on yr own...

There was recently a Gazan villager interviewed on Al Jazeera...missing teeth... obviously dirt poor... He said, they have taken our jobs, they have taken our food, they have taken our water... all we have left is our breath."

Power and control, baby, power and control.

Who's your daddy?

Isn't it usually "Jordan should be pressured to step in and solve the whole problem?"



'Israeli Initiative' cinematic trailer stars on YouTube

'Last Fanatic' depicts would-be suicide bomber who unexpectedly calls off his attack plans

Ynetnews
Published: 01.10.08, 17:53 / Israel News

A cinematic trailer serving as a tool for marketing Israeli Initiative's political message is starring in the list of the most popular video clips on YouTube just a few days after its release.

Headed by Knesset Member Benny Elon, the Israeli Initiative - the Right Road to Peace plan – calls for the Palestinian Authority to cease to exist and be replaced by the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3492843,00.html

Unparalleled evil? Might that be a bit harsh considering we live in a world where evil acts are never unparalleled? Consider how some conscripted child soldiers, (only a few years older than these kids,) are forced to either eat the slaughtered remains of their parents or face death themselves?

Does Haaretz read the news?

The scene shown Tuesday night on television was one of the most harsh and shameful seen here in recent times

I doubt that. Was it as harsh as the footage of the Palestinian girl on the beach crying out to her recently killed family members? Or as bad as enlisting a child to become a suicide bomber?

I'm interested to know...

I'm just not a fan of hyperbole.