Some top Dems helping support Bush/PNAC plans for wars & world domination

(Re-Post, within guidelines. Original post at: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=517202&mesg_id=517202&page= )

You think the subject header is a joke? I truly wish it were, but it's not.

You ask: How? What? Who? Where? When?

I'll tell you, and every word is the truth, and can be backed up by readily available facts and voting records (some links appear at the end of this essay). You have the choice of either ignoring these charges, or doing something about them. For the good of our country, and the sake of world peace, it is your duty to do something about this.

Please, stick with me as I lay out the facts here:

> What if I told you, that there is a subject, about which, many Democrats routinely agree with their Republican counterparts on? A subject championed by the likes of Tom DeLay in the House, and Joe Lieberman in the Senate? A subject embraced by PNAC, and their evil band of fascist neocons, and is a major reason for their existence? A subject that has cost this nation hundreds of billions of dollars, the deaths of hundreds of our soldiers, and now is now a major reason for our involvement in Iraq, and soon, our invasions of Syria and Iran? A subject that invokes such fear in Democrats, they rarely speak out against it, for fear of attack and retribution? A subject, that because if Bush and the neocons are given all they seek from the Congress, may well help Bush's re-election (sic).

That "subject"? The answer in a moment, but first, a bit more background on the "players", .....and the "game".

> There is an insidious group of fascist neocons, who several years a go formed an organization called PNAC (Project For a New American Century. Google "PNAC" for more information). They support U.S. world domination, control of world oil resources, and the subjugation and pacification of the Arab/Muslim world through wars and military actions. The majority of the group is comprised of "pro-Israel" sycophants and supporters, many of whom have worked for Israel's radical right-wing Likud regime.

Similarly, many of the primary principals of PNAC, hold positions of power within the Bush regime, and are known as "The Cabal". They include Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Elliot Abrams, Richard Bolton, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and a number of others. They currently control the foreign policy and military apparatus of this nation.

It was PNAC that conceived and planned the Iraq war, a full two years before Bush took office. In addition to gaining control of the oil, the principals of PNAC saw U.S. led war(s) in the Middle East, as a way to help Israel achieve dominance over its neighbors, and as a way to subjugate and subdue the Arab populations of the region. As Israel, and its war-mongering leader, Ariel Sharon, was also clamoring for the U.S. to conduct military actions in the region, PNAC's "pro-Israel" principals saw U.S. action as imperative. The events of 9/11 provided the impetus and excuses needed for the PNAC/Israeli encouraged wars to begin. Bush, wanting the oil, scratched the back of the "pro-Israel" neocons, as they scratched his, in a deal as evil as any since the days of the Nazi regime.

>So what about the Democrats you say? Let's start with the vote on the Iraq resolutions, up to, and including, the vote to give Bush a free and unfettered hand to conduct as many wars as he saw fit in the Middle East. Have you ever asked yourself why so many Democrats voted for these actions? It wasn't all "patriotism" in the aftermath of 9/11, that led to their votes. Nor was it, on the part of many, because they sincerely believed that Iraq was involved in 9/11, in fact, many already knew there was no proof Iraq was involved.

One of the primary reasons, and a common denominator among all those who voted for it, was I-S-R-A-E-L. Let me explain....

Israel's incredibly powerful U.S. lobbies, led my the state of Israel itself, and helped by organizations like AIPAC, JINSA, and a number of other "pro-Israel" friendly groups (like the Heritage Foundation, the American Enterprise Institute, and the Council on Foreign Relations) leapt into action after 9/11, clamoring for war(s) and intervention. 9/11, was the answer to their dreams of greater U.S. involvement in the Middle East.

***It should be noted here, that "pro-Israel" supporters span several religious and ethnic designations, and are not simply confined to those of Jewish faith or heritage.***

The many Democrats who voted for the action, were already recipients of copious amounts of cash from AIPAC and others, and had seen to it that Israel's every wish was granted in Congress, whether it was billions in aid, or new weapons systems, given gratis, to our "ally" Israel.

Yes, Israel, and support for its right-wing Likud government, is the common denominator, the "subject" if you will, the reason why so many Democrats are voting to support (directly and indirectly) the goals of PNAC, G.W. Bush, and the group of fascist neocons currently running our government. Their support is as unwavering, and unquestioning, as that of the most radical right-wing Republicans in Congress.

The most recent example of this support, was last week's vote in the House for sanctions against Syria. Right along with radical fundie wing-nuts like Tom Delay, here was our own Nancy Pelosi, and many other Dems (click here for a list:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HR01828:@@@P ), voting to give the Bush/PNAC cabal still more tools and power to allow them to increase their war mongering efforts in the Middle East. These Democrats were not so much directly supporting the Bush regime, but were being consistent with their unquestioning and unwavering support for whatever Israel wants, and Israel wants war in Syria and Iran.

Indirectly(?), they just handed the Bush/PNAC cabal most of the tools they need to once more dominate the front pages, wage wars, spread fear, initiate still more fascist control over our civil rights, spend billions more on weapons and the Pentagon, and in the end, .......help re-elect (sic) G.W. Bush. Why isn't it apparent to these Democrats, especially since the Iraq fiasco, and the very public outing of the PNAC doctrine, and its neocon principals, that their "pro-Israel" votes now support PNAC, Bush, the neocons, and the war-mongering right-wing government of Israel? By sleeping with major "pro-Israel" lobbys like AIPAC, these Democrats are now as allied with PNAC's goals as any Republican.

Why don't these Dems just come out and say it, "We support Ariel Sharon, no matter how nasty and brutal he is. We support war after war in the Middle East, as long as it gets us the "pro-Israel" vote, and good press. We'll rubber stamp whatever PNAC/Bush/Sharon ask us to, whether it's billions for Israel, billions for wars, whatever. We support PNAC's doctrine of U.S. world domination and control of its resources, knowing even as we do, it helps G.W. Bush's re-election (sic) chances. We don't give a damn about the fact it is our children, who are sent off to fight wars for oil and Israel. We only care about getting re-elected, and in order to get re-elected, we need to keep those conservative "pro-Israel" voters (and their powerful friends in the media) happy, and keep that AIPAC money flowing."

OK, that may seem rather harsh, however, in most cases, it is unfortunately, the truth. Here's some more truth....

Now you may ask, why does the "pro-Israel" faction have such incredible power over our Congress and its members? How could a little country in the Middle East, and its supporters here, exert such incredible influence, completely out of proportion to its international stature, economic power, and population? How do its U.S. supporters manage to intimidate and cajole our legislators into voting for Israel's, and its PNAC/Bush- neocon cabal allies', every whim and wish?

Given that the Jewish population of the U.S. is little more than 2.5%, and probably not more than half of them (thankfully) support Israel's current government, where does this power come from? Given the low number of fundie wing-nuts that have allied themselves with the "pro-Israel" factions, again, where does this power come from? Is it the millions the "pro-Israel" lobbies give out in "bribe" money? Is it the promise of a couple of million conservative Jewish votes? No. That's a small part of it, .......but not all of it.

The answer lies in one word: M-E-D-I-A. This is a subject most decline to discuss, for fear of being called a conspiracy nut, an anti-Semite, or worse. But, it has little to do with religion, and more about political power and allegiances. As a person who was in the media business for many years, as a writer, editor, publisher, musician, concert promoter, and producer, ....when it comes to this subject, I know of what I speak.

"Pro-Israel" faction sycophants are primary players in this nation's media. There's nothing sinister or conspiratorial about this, ....it just is. It's like the fact Southerners dominate NASCAR, or the Irish make great whiskey, but be it ownership, executive management, reporters, producers, or writers, this comparatively, and proportionally small group, is incredibly powerful. Some use this power for good, ......some do not. Some "think" they are using their power for good, when if fact, it is having the opposite effect. Regardless, it is a major force in this nation.

Think about it. Without good press, no politician survives. Their campaigns never even get off the ground without support from the media (a recent example: Arnold). Negative stories appearing in their hometown papers, can help to "un-elect" them too, while positive stories can insure their political survival and success, and allow them to flourish.

The media is a major controlling force of our political machinery. Functioning properly, and morally, it is supposed to be a pillar of our democracy. A free and open press is the life blood of democracy. Without it, no democracy can survive. With the demise of the Fairness Doctrine (surprise, its demise was engineered by the Republicans!), the media gained a free hand to lie, pervert, favor, manipulate, and control, our nation and its government. H-e-l-l-o Rush Limbaugh!

With so much media ownership and control currently in the hands of "pro Israel" acolytes and supporters, many of whom consider themselves otherwise liberal, I believe they are using their media powers to manipulate our government, and our political processes, to favor Israel. Right or wrong, their support never seems to waver either.

This blind, and unquestioning allegiance to Israel, has become one of the most damaging things that has ever happened to our nation. More damaging than 9/11. More damaging than Saddam or bin Laden, more damaging than G.W. Bush, more damaging than any wing-nut group of fundies. It is a DEMOCRACY DESTROYER, ....in the wrong hands, a scalpel, used to cut the heart from our Constitution, and steal our future.

Without a free, truthful, and unfettered media, there can be no United States of America. What these people have done (some, without realizing it), in abusing our laws, abusing the power given them through ownership and management, the lack of government oversight and control (which they fought for), and, in allowing an outside nation (Israel) to influence the fate of our nation, and our political processes, is so completely insidious, it is hard to comprehend.

So what can we do about it?

Disclaimer: First, let me state for the record, that I support a free and peaceful nation of Israel. I abhor and condemn terrorism, no matter who commits it. I believe the Israeli people have a right to live in peace and security, as do the Palestinians, and the rest of the world. I support a Palestinian state. I am appalled by the terrorism being conducted by Hamas and other groups against Israel. Likewise, I detest Ariel Sharon, and his radical right-wing government of war-mongers, who seek to establish apartheid in their part of the world. I have no ax to grind with the Israeli people, other than they have voted to keep Sharon and Likud in power, and the fact I resent the actions of their supporters in the U.S. media, along with their allies and puppets in our government. I am neither anti-Semitic (I am of part-Jewish heritage), nor anti-Israel. I am, pro-United States of America, and demand that all outside nations, no matter who they are, keep their damned noses out of our business, and our government.

Anyway, here's what we need to do restore our democracy, remove outside influence from the operation of our government, and regain control of our media:

1. First and foremost, we must insist that whoever will be the Democratic candidate for president, commit to restoring the "Fairness Doctrine", by executive order, as soon as they take office. This simple act, will immediately restore media freedom, fairness, and integrity. The value of this action, cannot be overstated, nor can its positive effects on our democracy, and our nation as a whole.

2. We must insist, starting right now, that our members of Congress cease support for Israel, until the Likud regime of Ariel Sharon is removed. We must tell them, in no uncertain terms, that supporting Israel, as long as G.W. Bush and the PNAC/Neocon cabal hold our government captive, is helping the Bush regime to destroy our country, is aiding them in their desire for wars, and is solidifying their fascist-like control of this nation. This is unacceptable.

Further, we must also demand to know why, as Democrats, they are supporting, and accepting support,from those who are working for the re-election(sic) of Bush/Cheney (ie: PNAC/AIPAC/JINSA/HF/AEI, and the nation of Israel). Though we already know the answers, we must demand they stop, now.

We must make them realize, that they are supporting Bush/PNAC/Israel when they vote for neocon "wish list" items, like sanctions on Syria, more money for Iraq, and further aid for Israel. We must demand they stop. Now. Their failure to do so, could well ensure the re-election (sic) of the Bush regime.

We must put them on notice, that as Democrats, and the supposed "opposition party", we cannot, and will not, stand for our representatives doing anything that might help Bush retain his office. Let them know, that if they do not stop, they will be betraying this nation, and in essence, become traitors to our democratic republic, and that you will work for their defeat at the polls.

Did I mention, that if we are unable to convince them to stop, there is a very good chance, Bush will be re-elected, and our country will continue its steady march into becoming a fascist nation, beset by chaos, wars, and terrorism?

3. After the election, we must take steps to break up all media conglomerations. Only an independent media can guarantee a fully functioning democracy. Large media corporations, as we have seen time and again since 1999, will always put their profits and self-interests, even if those interests are personal (like support for Israel), ahead of the public good. We, the public, own the airwaves of this nation, and we have a right to demand democratic airwaves, and a free, unbiased press.

4. Public financing of *all* elections must become the law of the land. Cosmetic campaign reform will not insure the integrity of our elections and political processes.

5. We need to form an organization(s) to promote the return of the Fairness Doctrine, the break up of media conglomerations, and public financing for all elections. Perhaps this could be done within existing organizations like MoveOn.org, or groups like TakeBackThe Media. One way or the other, there are no more important issues for the survival of our nation, and they deserve a lot more discussion and focus than they are currently receiving.

In the meantime, we need to write letters, and, call our representatives. We need to do these things day in, and day out, demanding answers, and demanding that these representatives work to support, not destroy, our democracy. Do it now.

Links to an assortment of articles on neocons, PNAC, voting records, AIPAC, and Israel:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EJ09Ak01.html
http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000508.php
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/09/1647954.php
http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/8-07-03/discussion.cgi.69.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1047725,00.html
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&e=1&u=/nm/syria_congress_dc
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HR01828:@@@P
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=156751
http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en40752&F_catID=&f_type=source
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,12858,1060030,00.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=301411
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=109&topic_id=1634
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=1402
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/655/op41.htm
http://www.wstm.com/Global/story.asp?S=1469905
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/339448.html

you reposted this. There is much to think about and discuss in this thread. NEEDED things to think about. Thanks.

well worth the time and effort. I wish that the demands you listed for the nominee and subsequent president would be met but somehow i am afraid that it is expected too much of one person/several. I beleive that the corruption is so rampant that it would take a rise up of the populace of the people for anything of the above to take place. Right now my hopes is that the CIA will expose much of the information necessary to bring this cabal down in office and the tide will sweep away the rest. Hope is always a good thing.

Oh, the horrible Jew pro-Israel media that corrupts our country!

Let's use a bit of simple logic.

We already know about the right-wing media. The right-wing is pro-israel, because that advances their goals for the Middle east. It follows that the right-wing media would be pro-israel - without any special Jew pro-Israel influence on our media.

at all in what FP is saying. Not at all.

n/t

I stay away from the I/P topics is because I am often not clear enough to respond without fear. I don't understand the point you are making. Would you clarify for me please?

is that saying the pro-Israel lobby makes the media greatly pro-Israel is wrong, because the media is right-wing on all issues, not just on that one.

nt

The corporate media is right-wing, so in order to support the right-wing, it naturally supports Israel - like the right-wing.

I don't think that the pro-Israel lobby has that much to do with it.

What? You are either in denial, or not being honest. Which is it?

that it does.

But tell me this: How does the pro-Israel lobby influence the right-wing media on the trade issue? Or various other economic issues? They're as rightist on most of those as they are on Israel.

The corporate, right-wing media tries to protect the Bush Administration, and therefore its polciies, because they directly benefit the corporate media. I don't see what it has to do with the pro-Israel lobby.

You do make a lot of sense Darranar! I tend to agree with you on this one. ;)

who have power. The other "right-wing" issues you mention, are not issues of passion with them, but this issue is.

Where's your evidence?

n/t

He's as far right on it as he is on every other issue.

I attended a several AIPAC meetings, and knew several of their members. The same in San Francisco. I have seen lists of their membership, though I am not sure if they are still published, or at least, available to non-members. If they are, one could easily see the number of people in the media/entertainment business that belong to AIPAC. AIPAC suports PNAC's goals. PNAC supports the Bush administration, etc., etc., etc. If you know where to obtain an AIAPC membership list, or if I can obtain one, let's peruse it together, and then you can prepare to be enlightened.

probably because similar claims are constantly made by anti-semites everywhere, except replace AIPAC with Jew.

You know, my piece is a personal opinion, to which I am entitled, whether you agree with my assertions or not. My opinons and assertions are derived from years in the media business, an intimate knowledge of many people in the business, discussions with them about issues such as Israel, public record, and damned few assumptions.

I don't mean to be rude, especially in view of the fact that we seem to agree on so much, but I am at the point where I personally don't give a rat's as what you think of my thoughts, opinions, and evidence. I am secure in knowing what I know.

Now, I have made an earnest effort here to share these things with you, only to have make snide remarks and nasty insinuations, only one of which you apologized for. Accept it or not, I really do not care to carry this emotionally draining crap, and suffer ad hominem attacks, any longer. The sun's out, and I am going to go garden, and leave you to consider the truths that I have written. Good day sir!

just on a few small details surrounding it.

What bothered me in your last post was that you brought in the Hollywood claim - another claim often brought up by anti-semites - when it has almost nothing to do with the media.

the media/music business, so I had the opportunity to know a great many people, and to interact with them on a number of different levels. It also, especially being of Jewish heritage, gave me the opportunity to learn a great deal about many different things. Anyway, I've got to run. See you on the boards...

:hi:

They are pro more money in their pockets, and they don't mind exploiting the emotions and religious beliefs of other people to stuff them.

The activities of the Israeli government have nothing to do with Judaism, which is about tolerance and peace and human rights.

The so called pro-israel lobby are no different from the wacko mullahs who exploit religious faith to try to impose pre-Islamic tribal customs on people, or dollahos who do the same thing to maintain a clamp on populations for the sake of US business interests.

Or the televangelists who sell blessed prayer cloths and encourage old people on fixed incomes to send in evidence of their faith that Jesus should bless the televangelist with a second Mercedes.

That is all AIPAC and its ilk are, they just have bigger companies and wear fancier suits.

The AIPAC has cleverly appropriated the term "pro-Israel" as if everything else is "anti-Israel".

If you are one of the people, like me, who considers APN pro-Israel, then we are in agreement that the pro-Israel lobby has little to do with it but mainstream thought, thanks to AIPACS little semantical games, is that pro-Israel=AIPAC.

These things are changing I've noticed and people are taking terms back and telling organizations like AIPAC and ZOA that they do NOT speak for an entire group but until those groups stop, I'm afraid this confusion will continue.

The saddest thing is that this is a calculated tactic to better shut up dissent by controling discussion and thought.

I am using pro-israel not because I think AIPAC benefits Israel, but because it is the conventional term for such organizations, though I think we agree that it's inaccurate.

Yes, I think APN is pro-Israel, far more so then AIPAC, but APN isn't what I'm speaking of now.

I'm speaking of he right-wing neconish organizations like AIPAC which I despise.

which is why I said you both basically agree...

What is unfortunate is the deliberate confusion some groups are causing and encouraging.

Ok... time for my nap now :)

those who are seeking the truth and fairness for all?

If the same thing was happening to the "pro-Israel" population, we would be defending their right to be heard as well and you know it.


It has nothing to do with religion, race or culture, except for the fact that these things are in fact being used by people in power to promote their agenda.

What it has to do with is a tremendous abuse of power and a denial of truth, and in the end EVERYONE on this planet suffers when the truth is held hostage. Until we confront the realities and atrocities and have the courage to change our direction and speak the truth, we risk destroying many nations including our own.

my alliances with the pro-Israel crowd here are few and far in between.

I don't deny what is happening in Palestine. I don't deny Israel's oppression of the palestinians. What I do disagree with are the reasons for the media's admittably biased perspective on the conflict.

Saying that the media's bais is due to the pro-Israel lobby is not true. Saying that PNAC has a lot to do with being pro-israel is also not true.

PNAC is an example of simple arrogance and greed. It essentially calls for American global dominance of the world - and looking at their domestic agenda, it's pretty clear that that is basically American corporate dominance of the world. Israel is a tool towards that goal. Benefiting it isn't that goal.

The media's bias is also based on simple greed. Why should the corporate media slam the right-wing, when the right-wing benefits them most of all? Part of helping the right-wing is being pro-Israel, hence the bias.

Darranar is one of the first to confront those realities and atrocities AND who has the courage to change our direction.

Stick around and find out who you're talking to ;) You're both on the same side.

I took great pains to point out, that it is not only Jews who support these actions, so why do you make such nasty insinuations?

n/t

IMO are reprehensible scum. That does not always mean what they say is inherently wrong. I think it is the way they say it and the meaning it has for them that makes it distateful and therefore not worth considering. The same information posted here in the spirit of discussing the topic without the anti-semitism should be accepted as a point of discussion. I say that with all the love I have for my husband and his family who have treated me with the same love and respect I treat them with. I have no desire to ever be thought of as anti semitic.

I just deleted the post you replied to. It was overly rude and innapropriate.

think you were rude or inapropriate at all. These are highly charged issues, very emotional for a very good reason.

And I didn't want that to happen.

worst scumbags have said something of truth and value once in awhile. I am not familiar with their thoughts on these matters. The thoughts and ideas expressed are my own, uninfluenced by anyone else. It comes from many, many, years in the media business, from my involvment in politics, and from having Jewish heritage and family. I KNOW of what I speak.

:wtf:

Please do one thing for me. Go to DavidDuke.com and see what he has to say about the Iraq war.

I just deleted the post you replied to, btw. It was overly rude and innapropriate.

intention of going to David Dukes site, or any other Nazi's. The issue here, is that more than one person, and one group, can agree on a given idea. That does not make the idea wrong, or bad.v For instace, if someone like David Duke says, the "sky is blue", should I disagree with him becasue he's a Nazi scumbag? I know that's a bit simplistic, but you get the idea. I am right about my assertionsdamnit, I know it, and so do many others, but they are afraid to agree, and/or, discuss them, for the very reasons that are happening to me here, and the things you mentioned; someone might think the ideas are anti-Semitic. But, that does not mean my assertions are wrong, and these people are right. I know in my heart, and in my mind, what is right and wrong about this.

answer my post above then. How do you know that there are so many pro-Isarel fanatics in the media? I want to see some evidence!

obtain a membership list or AIPAC. BTW, one example I don't think youll be able to quibble with, is William Kristol. There are so many others....

I'm not talking about right-wingers. I'm talking about those who adopt Likud party line on Israel but are far more moderate on every other issue. Like Joe Lieberman, for instance.

of a media publication. Look, I could give you many more personal examples of people i know, what they've said, and their positions in the industry, but I am not going to do that here. What I will do, is make a great effort to secure the AIPAC membership list, and find other documentation to further prove my points. Somehow though, I still don't think it would meet your standards of approval, because you DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE THE OBVIOUS TRUTH OF THE MATTER.

So be it...

OF COURSE AIPAC is allied with the right-wingers! It's a right-wing organization, for goodness sake! Of course Sharon is allied with the right-wingers! He IS one, for goodness sake! Both of those issues we completely, 100% agree on (except when it comes to justification for the war in Iraq, which had far more to do with oil and political gain than any sort of benefit for Israel.)

What we DISAGREE on is that you say that the pro-Israel bias in the media is a seperate problem from the right-wing bias in the media. I say that since the right-wing benefits the corporate media, the media gains from being hardline pro-Israel, like the right-wingers. It's part of the same problem; namely, corporate control fo basically everything in our nation.

Pipes, Kristol, Podhoretz would be the three big names that come to my mind. But I must say I would agree with Darranar on this one. It's much more to it then just unconditional pro-Israel support. It's not only about that but much more of a complex thing going on in the neo-conservative mind. I must admit Darranar makes much sense.

Darranar's gone to great pains to be fair and you guys basically say the same things in your many posts which I've been reading for a long time. I don't think it was meant to be a nasty insinuation- Darranar is very frank- just think it's a slight misunderstanding. Kind of funny too because you both agree ;)



Okay- butting out now/

There is a widespread misconception about the PNAC strategies - I guess since we have all been ordered to be upbeat and positive we should point out that this is a great example of bipartisan cooperation :P

posters, a thread (this one) has been moved to I/P, without any justification whatsoever, except it disagrees with their rather limited views. The issues I raise are not I/P isssues, so why was my thread moved? The issues I discuss, are Dems, things being done to influence their votes, who's behind it, and why. It's not a godamn I/P issue!

Those who sought to sabotage this thread while it was in GD, had every intention of turning it into an I/P thread, and the MODS let them get away with it! I protest these actions, and find them to be undemocratic, especially when a just few people are allowed to attack a thread in the manner they did, and then manage to convince the management of this board to move it.

Disgusting.

I am still waiting to hear from the Mod who made this decision, before I lodge a formal protest to Skinner and Elad.

grr:

I can understand your anger Flying Pig. They can post stuff from LGF and that racist Coxandforkum venom and get away with it yet an article that is critical of Israel's policy (written even by Jews or Israelis themselves) is anti-semitic. Ah well..:eyes:

it was not partially because I posted with you about a particular part of this. We have to have these discussions. I did not think you were being anti semitic. Perhaps it is because you and I have a mixed family and not being Jewish ourselves we are percieved as being anti semetic. I know I have been told that I have no business discussing these issues because I couldn't possibly understand. It is hard to figure that but the one reason I try to stay away from I/P discussions.

I happen to have a passion regarding PNAC, andthe issues I raised in my original post. I understandthem well, simply because I was in the media business for so long, have been involved with Democratic politics for over 35 years, and, because in fact, I am of part Jewish heritage. My grandmother was a Jew who escaped Latvia during the Holocaust, and was taken in by my family in Sweden. She later married my Grandfather. And let me say, that I loved my Grandmother very much.

And, as I've pointed out to those who have questioned my motives and content, ...I know of what I speak, whether they want to accept it or not.

let me see just exactly how much we disagree.

Let me make a few things clear. I despise AIPAC and I despise Ariel Sharon as much as you probably do. I despise PNAC and those who run it with a passion.

PNAC benefits Sharon. However, I don't think PNAC's goal is to benefit Sharon. PNAC's goal is American domiannce of the world economically, militarily, and politically.

The media is right-wing. Why"? Because the right-wing benefits the media directly with their policies. It follows that the media would support Israel and be biased in their favor, because the right-wing is. The most AIPAC does, IMO< is stregthen that bias. With or without AIPAC, it would still exist.

also escaped from Latvia. I never met her.

exactly what happens in the media happens at DU- the AIPAC crowd is perceived as speaking for almost all Jews and we all know they do not.

70% of Jews are APN yet that 30% is making all the noise and controlling the debate. Please don't stay away.

to a long, long discussion I had with a friend of mine. She is black I am white. We enjoyed so many of the same things and were both fascinated at the different way we interpreted the same thing. We set about to have an honest discussion about it with the premise that we could call each other out if we sounded racist with the purpose of understanding the term better. It went on for months and we had some very good discussions but you have to be at the level of understanding that everything said is open for honest and not angry interpretation. It can work but on a board like this I doubt it really can. I suppose we could try but I have no desire to inflame people and make them feel the need to justify themselves.

this is getting ridiculous!

There was exacly one reply to your thread when it got moved.

Almost as if one most not rock the sinking ship!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=5393

about the move of my original post. The Mod who moved it, has not even has the courtesy to give me a reason, nor discuss the matter. As yet, neither has my post in the Admin. forum, nor that of another poster who questioned the move, been answered, and it's been over an hour.

I think the "screamers" got it moved (and are no doubt gloating about it now), and if they are allowed to get away with it, then it surely speaks to the possible fact that some have an inordinate amount of influence on this board, at the expense of others. That doesn't sound very democratic to me.

Notice to the "screamers": I am going to post about this subject every single day, so get used to it. The subject is not going away, and neither am I. People have a right to express themselves, within the guidelines of this board, whether you like it or not. I will be in your face, with the truth, day in, day out.

:grr:

n/t

he media is indeed very annoying, though I don't blame that at all on the Israel lobby - I blame it on the right-wing media.

because I'm off to take a nap and have book-marked it for later.


I've often asked myself the same question you ask: Why don't these Dems just come out and say it, "We support Ariel Sharon, no matter how nasty and brutal he is. We support war after war in the Middle East because it's absolutely disgusting to see the pandering that goes on, the eagerness with which many Democratic poltiticians rush to pay court to Sharon... It is also demoralizing to see how the brave ones who refuse to play this game are vilified and demonized.

I have yet to figure out the intricate mechanics of this- all I know is that it's sordid and has a lot to do with the circular flow of money from the Military Industrial Complex all cleverly disguised under sleight-of-hand tricks and terms such as loans, grants, loan guarantees which eventually metamorphose into this:

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/june2003/0306036.html

Levin, Carl (D-MI)

$657,887 (Career total from pro-Israel Pacs)

93,029 (2002 total)

Sad to say but when someone like Carl Levin who used to be pretty high in my book, approves of Sharon's "pre-emptive" strike against Syria, I understand that all that money was for and it's heart-breaking to see.


Thanks. Will come back to read this but I fully expect to find it locked because it's "not based on a recent news article".

You did the unspeakable. You had independent thought on this subject that does not conform to the AIPAC line. The PNAC cancer is eating away at both parties and if people can't speak about it, then we are doomed.

What nation was edited out of a report that implicated it in 9/11?

Which nation's ruling family does personal business with our nation's ruling family?

What nation got support from the US during the 1948 war?

What Middle East nation was defended with US troops when "threatend" by a neighbor?

The American people were Pro Israel before the US government was. Huge Jewish media moguls like Rupert Murdoch, General Electric and Ted Turner had little to do with it.


But the Dem candidates...Lieberman is a Jew, Kerry has Jew blood and so does Clark....thats how we get you....

and her criminal occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

The day is almost at hand in which the American people will realize that their sons and daughters shed their blood for the American PNAC imperialists and the Greater Israel ethnic cleansers.

The truth shall set us free!

the 19 people butchered in Maxim's last week.

it's the other side that Americans don't hear, and perhaps don't want to hear.

American undercurrent of racism is helping Israel. White Americans are more comfortable with the European-looking Israelis, particularly when they moved there from the US, than they are with the darker skinned Palestinians.

fidel called......he wants you to stop stealing his
speeches.


"may peace be on to you"
remember!!

"If everyone knew what I knew they would agree wiht me"

The American "know the truth" whatever that is, and support Israel anyway.

hell, but that's OK. How about discussing my assertions, instead of making insinuations that have no merit or basis?

I didn't see your asertions.

What insinuations do I make? that Saudi Arabia spreads terrorism throughout the world? That has no merit? What planet are you from?

Time to go out and play. The sun is out, and I've made my point for the day, whether anyone wants to accept it or not. I am glad some do though, because the more we know and understand what is happening within the confines of the sainted halls of Congress, the more likley we are to either just give up and shoot ourselves, or get angry and do something about it. The choice is ours to make.

Have good one...

I think we may agree more here than either of us thinks.

Not based on a recent news or op-ed article.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground