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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 07:00 AM
Original message
Truth and consequences under the Israeli occupation

Mohammed Omer, The Electronic Intifada, 5 August 2008


I am a Palestinian journalist from Gaza. At the age of 17, I armed myself with a camera and a pen, committed to report accurately on events in Gaza. I have filed reports as Israeli fighter jets bombed Gaza City. I have interviewed mothers as they watched their children die in hospitals unequipped to serve them because of Israel's embargo. I have been recognized for my reporting, even in the United States and United Kingdom, where I have won two international awards. I have also been beaten and tortured by Israeli soldiers.

This summer, at age 24, I was honored to learn that I had become the youngest journalist to receive the Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism, named for the famed American war reporter and awarded to journalists who counter propaganda with the truth. Although Israel has sealed Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinians in what many now call the world's largest open-air prison, Dutch MP Hans Van Baalen lobbied the Israeli government to let me leave Gaza to receive my award in person. Upon my return from London, I was surrounded by Israeli security officers. I was stripped naked at gunpoint, interrogated, kicked and beaten for more than four hours. At one point I fainted and then awakened to fingernails gouging at the flesh beneath my eyes. An officer crushed my neck beneath his boot and pressed my chest into the floor. Others took turns kicking and pinching me, laughing all the while. They dragged me by my feet, sweeping my head through my own vomit. I lost consciousness. I was told later that they transferred me to a hospital only when they thought I might die.

Today, I have difficulty breathing. I have abrasions and scratches on my chest and neck. My hands don't function well; typing is difficult. My doctor informed me that due to nerve damage from one kick, I may be unable to father children and will need to have an operation.

Israeli attacks on journalists are not new; nor are they rare. In April, Reuters cameraman Fadel Shana was killed by fire from an Israeli tank. He was in a car, clearly marked as press. According to Amnesty International, "Fadel Shana appears to have been killed deliberately although he was a civilian taking no part in attacks on Israel's forces."

Reporters Without Borders has condemned the Israeli military's widespread "abusive behavior" of Palestinian journalists. And the Committee to Protect Journalists reports that journalists covering Israeli military actions in the West Bank and Gaza "contend with perennial abuses at the hands of Israeli forces." In 2007 alone, Israeli soldiers shot photographers from Agence France-Presse, Al-Ayyam newspaper and Al-Aqsa TV. The television cameraman, Imad Ghanem, fell to the ground when wounded. Israeli forces then shot him twice more in the legs. Both of his legs have been amputated.

Could it be that despite their tanks, fighter planes and nuclear arsenal, Israel is threatened by our cameras and computers, which give the world access to images and information about their military occupation of Palestinians? Indeed, this month a Palestinian girl filmed an Israeli soldier shooting a blindfolded Palestinian at point blank range with a rubber bullet. The video aired widely, on CNN, NBC News and the BBC, among other media outlets.

Although Palestinians face this violence daily, the images and our stories rarely travel beyond our borders. Israel seems intent on hiding its oppression of Palestinians under its rule -- including its dual system of laws, one giving civil, political and social rights to Israelis, and the other denying those rights to Palestinians living under occupation. This system allows Jewish settlers in the West Bank to enjoy freedom of movement and access to healthcare and education, while Palestinian children in Gaza die of curable illnesses because hospitals have run out of medicine....

read on...
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9741.shtml
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 07:17 AM
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. WTF? The article was about a Palestinian journalist, not Hamas...
Do you ever bother reading articles before you trot out the same soundbytes you post in just about every thread?

Do you have an opinion on the contents of the article?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
3. Mohammad Omer is a faithful servant of Hamas and the Palestinian narrative...
...he is not "commited to reporting accurately" on events in Gaza.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=1512

Why should anyone take this twit seriously? He's a propagandist mouthpiece for Hamas, not an example of objective, honest and accurate reporting.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. He's not affiliated with Hamas n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. He certainly won't report anything critical of Hamas
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 08:56 AM by shira
Anything not towing Hamas' party line puts Omer out of business in Gaza.

If Hamas kidnaps critical journalists (like the German one recently) and arrests/kills Fatah faithful (like the 180 Fatah followers jumping the Israel border for safety from Hamas), how objective do you expect Mohammad Omer to be when "reporting" from Gaza? His propaganda belongs in the Tehran Times, not the NY Times.

In fact, the work of ANY journalist reporting from within Gaza or the W.Bank should always be considered with skepticism for the very same reasons. While other foreign countries have reporters within the territories, Israel has none. True freedom of press is non-existant in Gaza and the W.Bank. Tow the line or be kidnapped, tossed out, knee-capped, or killed. The rules are simple.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 08:54 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 08:57 AM
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Because he's said he's not affiliated with Hamas...
So, how many articles of his have you read, Shira?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. because he said?
Liars say all sorts of things, Violet. What makes you take Omer seriously? Read the CAMERA article and check for yourself that he is phony and not credible.

Let's make this a test case if you're game. Is CAMERA right or wrong about Omer? Let's find out. Get back to me once you read the article and we can move on.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Yeah, I tend not to follow the 'if they're Palestinian, they're probably a liar' line...
And when it comes to what people believe, I always prefer to get it from the horse's mouth rather than from some third party who might well be full of shit with what they insist the person believes.....

I'm going to take a leaf from yr book. Here goes. CAMERA is nothing but propaganda. They NEVER criticise Israel...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:39 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:49 AM
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. part 2
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 09:17 AM by shira
I notice you are incredibly quick to accuse just about every source you see that's critical of Israel of being propaganda. If you believe that someone is peddling propaganda if you think they're not critical of Hamas, then wouldn't the same reasoning apply to those who aren't critical of Israel, like CAMERA for instance?

Violet,

1. I'm more skeptical of some sources than others. I'm not as eager and quick as some who jump on any and every thing critical of Israel. You should realize there is far too much misinformation passing for journalism that is critical of Israel.

2. "If" I don't think Omer is critical of Hamas? Come on now, Violet - do you think anyone within Gaza is stupid and crazy enough to report against Hamas?

3. CAMERA isn't journalism. Journalists can either choose to report objectively, honestly, and accurately or choose to be biased op-ed commentators (which is not journalism). CAMERA doesn't have to be cricial of Israel - although to be taken seriously, they should not play fast and loose with the facts. Did you check out CAMERA's claims against Omer and his inconsistencies and lies?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Okay, so you only apply that reasoning to anything critical of Israel...
Have you heard of a thing called objectivity? See, discarding views you disagree with as propaganda or bias and not applying the same standards to views that you agree is something I've encountered online in conservatives and anti-abortionists. In the case of conservatives, everything that doesn't mesh with their worldview is discarded as 'lefty garbage' no matter how credible the source, and in the case of anti-abortionists, peer reviewed medical papers are tossed aside as 'pro-abort propaganda' and lnks to sites like 'God cries for all the iddy biddy aborted babies.com' are trotted out as The Truth. And why do they behave that way? Because they will always claim they're more sceptical of some sources than others.

This bit from a Wiki article discussing Myside bias reminds me of yr posts in this forum:

'The term "myside bias" was coined by the geneticist, David Perkins, myside referring to "my" side of the issue under consideration. An important consequence of the myside bias is that many incorrect beliefs are slow to change and often become stronger even when evidence is presented which should weaken the belief. Generally, such irrational belief persistence results from according too much weight to evidence that accords with one's belief, and too little weight to evidence that does not. It can also result from the failure to search impartially for information.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:46 AM
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. No I'm not...
People just need to read yr posts to see that it's the case. You've done nothing since you've been here other than accuse organisations and individuals critical of Israel of being biased propaganda, while trotting out internet sites that while fitting into yr views, would be classified as biased propaganda if you applied yr standards the same way....

Speaking of over-exaggerating and basically making a balls-up of it, you might like to try going back and reading some threads here. See, you'd notice that I definately do not accept everything critical of Israel and have a strong dislike for some sources that have been posted here.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. oh please
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 10:12 AM by shira
CAMERA is biased according to my standards? Since when has CAMERA trotted out complete propagandist screeds against Palestinians like your sources have with respect to al-Dura, fake checkpoint stories, John Pilger fantasies, etc.? There is simply no comparison. The little you tried digging up on CAMERA or NGO-monitor was quite insignificant and petty in comparison.

Try again.

Please.


ps
Is al-Dura a hoax? Jenin massacre? Qana? Gaza Beach? Or do you believe those accounts as originally reported? I asked before. Maybe you can answer now.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Try focusing on what yr replying to...
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 10:26 AM by Violet_Crumble
Go back and read the exchange. You claimed that Omer was a propagandist and said that he was never critical of Hamas. So using yr standards, that makes CAMERA propagandists as they're never critical of Israel. Okay, still following, or will you need it repeated several more times?

You clearly have no clue as to what bias is. It's not something that you apply to things you dislike and claim doesn't exist in things that agree with yr views. Bias exists on both sides with this conflict, but yr incapable of seeing that....

btw, back to yr silly claim that I embrace any criticism of Israel no matter what the sources, will you be needing links to my posts where I've expressed my strong dislike for sites like Counterpunch, or maybe my responses to people who say that Israel is committing genocide? Or will my comments on what I believe be treated like you've treated Omer's?

Now, focus on what I said, and try not to steer off on yr silly hoax tangents...
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
43. Does their support for the Joan Peters nonsense count?
That's an example that comes to mind immediately.

There is not a single scholar of middle east history who hasn't denounced "From Time Immemorial" yet it's still on CAMERA's recommended reading page.

If that book isn't propagandistic screed I don't know what is!

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_article=704
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
10. Giving voice to the voiceless in Gaza
24-year old Mohammed Omer from Rafah is the youngest recipient ever of the prestigious Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism. MENASSAT caught up with the young journalist and blogger during a trip to Sweden.

STOCKHOLM, June 12, 2008 (MENASSAT) – He sits crammed on the couch, surrounded by media workers and press activists at a farewell dinner.

It's Mohammed Omer's last day in Stockholm and the past week has been packed with conferences and countless reporters hunting him down for interviews. He is due to take a red eye flight to Greece on June 11, where he will continue his speaking engagements before traveling to London to receive the Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism on June 16.

Not surprisingly, Omer is tired. Yet, he is having trouble sleeping.

Growing up in the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip along with his seven siblings, listening to the sound of warplanes, explosions and the chaotic aftermath of residents scrambling to pick up the dead and injured – these things have all been part of Omer's everyday life.

<snip>

His trip to Europe and his attendance at the award ceremony in the U.K. was up in the air until the last minute, however. Travel restrictions are common in Gaza and Omer says it took him a week and several failed diplomatic efforts to leave. It wasn't until Dutch diplomats came to his aid that the Israeli authorities let Omer leave with an escort from the Dutch embassy.

A fluent English speaker, Omer says he learned his language skills primarily by working with foreigners and news agencies. He has chosen to report in English in order to target the largest audience possible and "to reach out to those people who are not yet convinced."

The work comes with a price tag though. Apart from receiving emails from upset and angry readers, Omer said he is also subjected to threats, often from Israelis.

Credibility then is key for a reporter in a sensitive area like Gaza where news reports often conflict with each other and where correspondents are constantly being accused of bias. Omer therefore adheres to the "One picture says more than a thousand words" principle.

http://www.menassat.com/?q=en/news-articles/3932-giving-voice-voiceless-gaza
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RethugAssKicker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
12. The American public is clueless about what's really going on
over there.... Here in the USA all we here is RW pro-Israel propaganda.
yes its true... The Palestinians are in virtual slavery.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. lol
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 09:49 AM by shira
Yes, it's so bad 180 Fatah militants recently jumped over the Gaza border preferring Israeli hospitality over their own Palestinian leadership. They prefer 'virtual slavery' over Hamas gunmen. Oh yeah, and the health care 23 of them received in Israel after they were refused in Gaza.

Are you certain you know what's going on there? Isn't the accepted narrative that Israel is the root of almost every evil in the I/P conflict - that there is simply no way Palestinians could possibly prefer Israeli rule over their own?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Deleted sub-thread
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. Except that they would rather be arrested by Israel
than killed by their own people.

Facts.

Not reported by any biased site, but the "liberal" New York Times.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Crickets to this
People don't like to acknowledge that Palestinians themselves fear the militancy of Hamas, and realize that they can be easily killed, just for not being part of the party view.

To feel protected by Israel, and not their own people?

Pretty pathetic lack of unity, and one reason that they will never have a state, as long as this keeps up.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Chirp Chirp and an answer
This is a comment from a thread on the subject:

oberliner (1000+ posts)

It looks like of the 120 who fled to Israel, 30 were sent back to Gaza and arrested by Hamas, and the other 90 are being sent to the West Bank.

Here is today's article from Ynet on the subject:


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3577675,00.ht...

excerpt from the article

Three buses carrying 87 Palestinians who fled Hamas persecution in Gaza arrived in the West Bank city of Jericho on Monday evening, following an agreement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
Earlier in the day it was reported that the group would be transported to Ramallah. Military officials said the change of venue to Jericho is due to an internal Palestinian disagreement. The PA however insists Israel dictated the change


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x220441#220581

Which leaves some questions Why was Abbas not more receptive of these guys and why knowing the situation in Gaza did Israel release these prisoners there anyway, only to take them back hours later? Also notice Israel did send some back to Gaza
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Did you actually read the NYT article I posted the other day? nt
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yes I did
did you read the ynet article that Oberliner posted? Hamas clams it has released some of the Fatah members it arrested. As for the Hilles clan they were sheltering Fatah members responsible for the several deaths including that of a child in a bombing attempt in Gaza.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
29. stories from gaza.....
Edited on Fri Aug-08-08 02:18 AM by pelsar
in the hebrew paper..dont know if it will make it to Haaretz...... (yedeiot achronot-aug 8,2008-additional section page 12

the article talks about hamas mortaring/kassaming neighborhoods....real torture, such as hot irons on people, shooting them in the knees, putting gas in their mouths. Freedom of expression is long gone, with the last radio station that was critical of hamas...closed.

One of the more interesting quotes was the Palestinian who compared being arrested by Israel and with Hamas......he said the with the jews it was much easier...hamas has no sympathy and no god. The article goes on about Hamas intolerance of anybody or anything that gets in their way.

__________

I suppose for many, hamas gaining power and doing what they do is israels fault (i always found that interesting as if hamas/fatah, etc are just so completely incompetent and 'devoid of brains" that they cant follow through with their plans without israel doing the actual work....).

As hamas solidifies its hold on gaza, and occupies it...we shall hear (havent heard) little in the western press about it. For one thing, hamas doesnt really care what the west thinks... especially as long as the money keeps coming (from iran, from europe, from the UN-which is feeding most of the gazans). But also there will be few who will be willing to risk their lives to criticize hamas. The gazan blogs have always avoided internal politics..and that remains so, not even a hint of the changing powers.
_______

its not a matter of "they got what they voted for"....hamas is now the occupying power, taken by force. Because they are of the same gene pool, have a non western culture and are "brown natives" i suspect there will fact be little pressure to westernize or democratize they're ways. ..civil rights really wont be an issue. In fact some will even defend them and their methods. First off this is not good for the citizen Palestine, it may however in a perverse way bring stability to the region (dictatorships as in syria can do that when they choose). And for the westbank?...the prognosis doesnt look good.....they too may get a hamas takeover, inwhich case short term stability will be turned in to a far worse place to live for citizen Palestine, and they will once again find their lives even more miserable than it is now.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Exactly, and I am waiting for the "progressive" response
Why do people think that lack of civil or human rights, intolerance, lack of religious freedom, lack of freedom of the press, etc. is OK if it is Hamas as the violent occupying power?

Do the Palestinians have a better life under Hamas's violent occupation? Seems that the citizens are more restricted, in greater danger, poorer, hungrier and more desperate than ever.

Why does any "Progressive" defend these ways?

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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. I love it when Pelsar's response is "Israel isn't as bad as Hamas."
Funny, Pelsar, I am not hearing these stories from my relatives.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. so what do you hear...
Edited on Fri Aug-08-08 09:46 AM by pelsar
granted we get limited info now that no israeli reporter is down there....the gaza blogs dont write anything political and whats left is what leaks out. The "beards" being grown, the mosques suddenly full of people on fridays, head scarves being worn, blown up internet cafes...less sporadic gun battles.....

i just think the discussion of "what is worse"..an israeli occupation (lets call it pre olso) vs occupation by hamas should at least be discussed. Though not directly related what was worse for the iranians...a secular dictatorship installed by the US or the present home grown theocratic version now (im sure the nice democratic liberals that helped overthrow the sha would have something to say...except that they were hung soon after khomani took over).

its a discussion never discussed: whats more important, more civil rights and occupation by the "other" or a more crueler occupation but by those of the same gene pool?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Is a full synagogue on Friday a bad thing? nt
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. WOW! Way to avoid the questions!
Yr getting lessons, aren't you? ;)
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I'd like to see any of the anti-Israel posters on this forum
answer Pelsar's questions.

They are good ones, and deserve recognition, since these are the same people shrieking about how horrible Israel is.

Of course, Palestinians themselves have said that they would prefer being arrested by Israel than killed by their own countrymen,

And others have said that life under occupation was much better and easier than life under Hamas.

But the anti-Israel types seem not to care about these comments, from real Palestinians.

They would rather accept an anti-human rights, anti-civil rights, anti-everything, terrorist group that is acting as a government in Gaza, even if the citizens are infinitely more miserable under their rule.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Excuse me, but I am married to a "real" Palestinian.
Edited on Fri Aug-08-08 03:28 PM by ProgressiveMuslim
My in-laws are not Hamas supporters by any stretch, but the last thing they would want would be to re-occupied.

You are in no position to judge anyone's misery except your own.

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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Just curious if Pelsar thinks all religious observance is a negative, or just Muslim worship? nt
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. all religions...
Edited on Fri Aug-08-08 04:40 PM by pelsar
i find the worship of some kind of super being who is so powerful that he needs us people to worship him via silly little rules and laws of what and how to eat for example to be absurd.....(you can see that as a jab at islam...or judiasm, take your pick)

and yes religion can be used as a powerful source of good....but if one were to balance the good vs the bad......the bad would completely out weigh any good.
___

not back to the question: why is a crueler occupation of some group with the same gene pool/religion a better deal than a less crueler one by the other:...a fair enough question......
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. It's not an occupation. Period.
Edited on Fri Aug-08-08 04:44 PM by ProgressiveMuslim
Hopefully the West will allow the Palestinians to exercise self-determination such that there is the ability for a political system to function.

When one group is co-opted, and people are exhausted and living on fumes, it's no surprise when the fundamentalists, who stand strong and stand with the people, come into power.

I hope that Palestinians will be allowed to hold elections, and that th electorate will vote for an independent secular party.

But you kid yourself if you think half-life under Israel is a preferable long-term solution.

It's not.

I'm not terribly religious, but I certainly understand and appreciate the human propensity to find the sacred in their daily lives. I understand exactly why people in Gaza are turning to Islam, and I don't fault them for it.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. i've changed the subject from the OP if its agreeable....
Edited on Fri Aug-08-08 04:55 PM by pelsar
forget the west..they couldnt stop khommeni and only stopped the taliban because of 9/11..i 'm talking about the principle.

so you say its not an occupation?..then what would you call it..hamas via guns took over gaza..call it a coup if you want. Fact is gaza is now being run in a most non democratic way...and you call that "self determination?...is that because the ones with the guns speak arabic?

and do you really think hamas is going to have elections......your dreaming. God gave them the power to rule in case you missed something....elections are no longer needed or at best you'll get the iranian version....limited options.

again out of curiosity..is it still self determination for those without civil rights?...or are they secondary (like arranged marriages) to the greater cause of culture and religion in your eyes?

___

oh i understand the need for religion, especially under difficult times.......and in fact try to be as quiet as possible and keep my snide remarks to myself during the various ceremonies i find myself in.....but it doesnt negate the overall silliness of those rituals (not turning on a light on saturday because its "work"....shall i take a stab at one of the muslim ones now?)
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I don't consider it self-determination.
After hamas won the election, they were never able to rule. They begged co-opted Fatah to join a unity gov't, and fatah, being on the western string, refused. They were isolated. They were put in the corner.

And it was a coup attempt by US/Israel-backed Fatah in 2006. Only fools and propagandists deny that. Can I blame Hamas for not allowing itself to be annihilated? Of course not.

I want unity. I want Hamas to drop arms, Fatah to stop the "Peace process" charade, and make minimum demands for peace, and I want them both to engage in nonviolent resistance, and invite the world to join them with international sanctions, boycotts and divestment.

I believe Israel will only agree to a just peace when the price of the status quo becomes too painful to bear.

What's your point? Pelsar hates Muslim fundies? So what.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. i dont hate just muslim fundies...all of them scare the shit out of me...
Edited on Fri Aug-08-08 05:10 PM by pelsar
the question i'm asking is how far up the scale are western civil rights vs being ruled in a dictatorship by ones own. It goes to the definition of the "progressive"...

are all of these "human rights violations" that are constantly used against israel only an excuse to remove the israeli occupation and replace it with a far crueler home grown dictatorship whos far less concerned about human rights?

if so what is a western progressive doing promoting such a thing?....(where i understand that human rights is supposed to be the holy grail...nothing tops it)
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Do you think Palestinians under Israeli occupation have "western civil rights?"
Please get this through your head:

You live in la-la land if you think Hamas is "far crueler" than the Israeli occupation forces in Gaza were.

La. La. Land.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. is hamas crueler....yes by a long shot...
which is why the clan that was attacked instead of giving up to hamas, ran for the israeli border an asked to cross.....no more restaurants selling beer, how many internet cafes are still open? no more radio/newspapers that can criticize the local govt.....real torture going on complete with knee capping etc...the gazan population now have a very intolerant govt of which western civil rights is not even part of the equation.

was israeli better?..in terms of individual freedom on a day to day living?...yes and not only do i not live in La La land i was an eye witness to their day to day lives. Whereas it was hardly nirvana, they didnt live in fear of the patrolling IDF forces.....

but i think i get it....my idea of civil rights includes the right to say what you want, when you want, believe what you want and not live in fear of any kind of religious moral squads running around....those freedoms no longer exist in gaza today
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. And why would people think that torture, knee capping, no civil rights
is BETTER for the Gazans?

Don't they deserve freedoms?

I thought that was what all this violent resistance was about.

Turns out that they don't mind living in jail, as long as the jailers speak Arabic.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I think you forgot to call Palestinians whiners. nt
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Don't live in fear of the IDF???
Dude, I think your view as a member of the IDF was skewed. I understand that you can't admit the reality of military occupation, the fear, the humiliation, the murder, the fact of someone else holding your life, your dreams, your future in their capricious -- and hateful -- hands.

Believe what you will. I have seen my own relatives abuse, with my own eyes, at the hands of the IDF and Shin Bet.

I understand your need to pretend what you're engaged in isn't evil. I know better.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. dont have to pretend....life is relative.....
Edited on Sat Aug-09-08 01:29 AM by pelsar
the humiliation, the murder ...etc..you dont think that now exists with Hamas in power?..or is it because they re of the same gene pool that it doesnt count? Im quite aware of the humiliation, the fear caused by the IDF...... but there was a huge difference for many of the Palestenians and they ve said it over and over again....with the IDF it was more focused on specific individuals, not a widespread net encompassing everyone in the area.

Perhaps your right, hamas is better a better governing body than the IDF..and probably agree that israel, in the interests of human rights etc, should close the borders entirely so as not to pollute the gazans with anything israeli. Good luck..i doubt well be hearing much of human rights violations coming out of the gaza....anybody foolish enough to write about it might find themselves having one of those nice visits by local hamasnik....... though i dont know, i get the impression that the gazan bloggers if they didnt have a visit, self censorship appears to be constant.

in fact do you even think human rights, civil rights are even part of the agenda for hamas?....i dont......is it even a subject of discussion?......will it ever be?...perhaps you feel its secondary to self rule?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. I think like many revolutionary movements, Palestinians have gone about things backwards.
I think the key to success is a constitution which lays out the rule of law.

But then again, Israel's done pretty well without one.

I don't see a Hamas-led gov't as the end product of this, at least I hope not. But I do believe that the external pressures by Israel and the US make it impossible for Palestinians to get their act together internally. And frankly, I think that's exactly how Israel wants it! I hope you're honest enough to admit that the purpose of unilateral disengagement was chaos, wasn't it? Mission accomplished! As for Palestinians playing along, that's very true, but I do believe that Hamas tried everything in its power to make a go of its newly found power. Too bad they didn't have a partner in Fatah.

As for civil rights, we've had the discussion many times Pelsar. I don't see a day when mano-a-mano couples will ever be able to parade in the manara in Ramallah.... wait a minute: men already DO walk around the manara holding hands! LOL!
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. if its an temp situation....
then there is hope.. if hamas follows iran, saudi arabia, then i think there is less hope...the solution lies solely with the Palestenaians....and possibly with their progressive friends to put pressure on them to at least keep civil rights on the table....if not what we have is classic case of the *useful idiote syndrom*.

and i honest enough?

I hope you're honest enough to admit that the purpose of unilateral disengagement was chaos, wasn't it

i am honest enough to know that the best laid plans of the israeli govt dont go so well....Was it Sharons plan for chaos? well hes better at making chaos then he is at making order...lebanon was just one of his plans, that was spoiled by the locals. The locals here in gaza could have spoiled his plan as well-they didnt....i would hope that you too can admit that regardless of the israeli plans it was up to the Palestinians to make the best of a shitty situation...instead of taking a shitty situation and making it worse...which is exactly what they did....though there is still hope. A single govt no matter how cruel is in fact better than chaos....and the Palestenians are educated in the ways of civil rights etc so there is hope....and just so we dont get confused on the issue, i figure the only way to long term peace is a western oriented civil rights grounded Palestinian state.

Ramallah isnt really gaza now is it?.....try holding hands in Palestenian square downtown gaza
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Pelsar, if you don't know that Palestinian men hold hands everywhere,
Edited on Sat Aug-09-08 09:33 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
then I doubt you truly live in Israel and have served in the IDF!

I think the Iranian republic (based on shia islam) and Gaza are 2 entirely different animals. Similarly, the kingdom of saudi arabia...

That you conflate these very different types of political Islam makes me question your knowledge.
No biggie. I think we've exhausted the topic.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. my knowledge with all the changes recently is
no longer up todate....in terms of gaza or ramalla...i havent been to either for over 4 years ..and with the massive amount of changes happening in gaza all i now know is what i read...and that is always suspect in my mind.

in fact i was hoping from you to get updated on gaza if your in touch with the relatives and can actually get real info....
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. I'm talking about Palestinian cultural norms in general.
Can you really have been in the WB and not seen men openly affectionate with each other in public?

Seriously. I am beginning to doubt the veracity of your persona!
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I think there is a misunderstanding between the two of you
It seems that Pelsar is making the claim that Palestinians (especially those living in Gaza, under Hamas rule) are not free to live an openly gay lifestyle.

The "holding hands" reference was not meant to suggest that straight Palestinian men are not openly affectionate with each other in public, but rather that an openly gay couple would not be tolerated by the powers that be.

Would you agree, ProgressiveMuslim, that gay Palestinians, especially those living in Gaza, would most likely be in trouble if they were open about their orientation?


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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I made a joke, which mysteriously went over Pelsar's head.
Surprising for someone who has first-hand knowledge of Palestinian society is all.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Because the jailors speak Arabic
they are given a pass.

Not so fast.

Maybe the relatives are just too afraid to speak up, in fear of being killed for voicing a real opinion.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Your ignorance is truly mind boggling. nt
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