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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:40 PM
Original message
Standing up to Jewish terrorism
The government's decision to declare the House of Contention in Hebron a closed military zone was an inevitable step, but if it does not lead to the necessary phase then it is liable to fail. Following the latest riots two days ago, Defense Minister Ehud Barak declared that the government would not reconcile with the rampaging by "extremist forces." At about the same time, those in charge of the "forces" lashed out at the government, the courts, the army and the media, as if we were dealing with two legitimate, opposing sides.

The time has come to cease the vague characterizations and call a spade a spade. We are not dealing with "marginal groups," "extremists who have gone out of control," and other attempts at verbal acrobatics that are designed to paper over a harsh reality. For a long time now, settlers in Hebron and other areas of Judea and Samaria (and East Jerusalem) have engaged in unruly behavior whose only goal is to violently threaten the Palestinians while undermining Israel's sovereignty. By any official standard recognized worldwide, this is terrorism that sows fear and disrupts the proper management of a state.

More at:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1043413.html
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Indeed, Sir: These Criminals Must Be Broken With The Full Power Of the Israeli State
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. I agree with this editorial
These people are inexcusably evil toward the Palestinians, a real danger toward their own country, and need to be cracked down on. The government should have dealt severely with the situation a long, long time ago.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. ditto on agreement
the difference we have with our opponents however, is that we don't even attempt to make excuses for these criminals and their actions....even though many (maybe all of them) truly believe in their cause, think they are also victims, believe they are "resisting", etc.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. completely agree. nt
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yes, let's see the people who think Hamas is a good honest government
stand up against their violent resistance and terrorism, the way Jews do against settler violence.

For some reason, the violence of Hamas and the militants is considered "excusable" because they are just "resisting".

Hogwash.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. There is by no means universal support for Hamas in Gaza...
in fact, there is near-civil war between the different parties.

I agree that there's little in the way of 'good honest government there'; but no party gets (or deserves) strong unanimous support.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Do you agree with the Ha'aretz editorial?
The time has come to cease the vague characterizations and call a spade a spade. We are not dealing with "marginal groups," "extremists who have gone out of control," and other attempts at verbal acrobatics that are designed to paper over a harsh reality. For a long time now, settlers in Hebron and other areas of Judea and Samaria (and East Jerusalem) have engaged in unruly behavior whose only goal is to violently threaten the Palestinians while undermining Israel's sovereignty. By any official standard recognized worldwide, this is terrorism that sows fear and disrupts the proper management of a state.

Do you agree with this paragraph? Yes or no...

btw, I've yet to come across anyone in this forum who thinks Hamas is a good, honest government...
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. But lets never miss a chance
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 11:21 PM by azurnoir
to blanket demonize them and then declare our moral superiority or try to preempt an area where they might agree with us but I am sure your effort is quite appreciated by some of your compatriots.:eyes:

edited because I could not get the smilies to load
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. The government created the situation...
by importing waves of Russians and sending them to the territories to eke out their patch of land and fight the good fight. Stand by the Baruch Goldstein memorial in Kiryat Arba, and the majority of people walking up to put flowers on the tomb are Russian.

I am not without sympathy for the settlers. That the Ashkenazi elite in TA, who so deliberately created the situation, are now castigating the poor slobs in the settlement slums for their racism is hypocrisy of the most blatant kind.

In a way, it closely parallels the American experience:- the genteel, Obama-voting WASPs versus the Irish and Italian working class whites who were racist only because they and not the WASPs had to contest with Blacks for jobs and resources.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Your parallel breaks down badly
The settlements are hardly "slums"; in some ways, I'd argue that the standard of living in them (the more established ones, anyway) is higher than in some of Israel's towns (not the upper-class neighborhoods, obviously), on par with the kibbutzim more-or-less. the policy you speak of would more rightly apply to the "development towns" which are inside the Green Line.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Lots of American there too, aren't there? But yr point is correct: What the gov't has encouraged
has come home to roost.

And now we are SO SHOCKED that this has happened.

Who could POSSIBILY HAVE FORESEEN this outcome?
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I don't think anyone is shocked
The removal of the religious settlers in Gaza gave everyone a good idea how this was going to go.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Why not remove them all now? It will only get worse as time goes on. nt
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Not really
Israel has time on its side, the Palestinians don't.

Israel can keep up the status quo for decades.

It is the Palestinians that have miserable lives, and need to think about whether they ever want a change, and how renouncing terrorism is their only prayer to a decent life.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Now, that's the 'progressive' spirit in action...
Edited on Sun Dec-07-08 12:02 AM by Violet_Crumble
In reply to a post asking why Israel can't remove all the extremist settlers now, this is yr reply;

'It is the Palestinians that have miserable lives, and need to think about whether they ever want a change, and how renouncing terrorism is their only prayer to a decent life.'

Yep, blame Palestinian civilians for terrorism and justify the terrorism of the settlers being carried out against them.

You've been asked before and not replied, so this time I'll take yr silence as saying more than any words can. Most other people in this thread have voiced their opposition to the actions of the extremist settlers and agree that it's terrorism. As yr one of the most vocal posters in this forum when it comes to terrorism, do you or do you not agree that the Ha'aretz article was correct in calling what was done by the extremists terrorism? Or is something only terrorism when it's not carried out against Palestinians?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. they would have been gone due to Camp David / Taba 2000-01...
....had Arafat agreed.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Do you consider ongoing settlement expansion a form of punishment? nt
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
10. I am all for standing up against terrorism, regardless of its source.
It is hard to rail against the terrorism of the settlers when the Israeli people are subjected to endless Palestinian terrorism. No one has clean hands in that pathetic region of the world.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's not hard at all...
Because for those of us who are opposed to terrorism, regardless of its source, terrorism from one group doesn't even start to justify terrorism against another. It's all wrong...
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delad Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Are you saying
that some forms of terrorism are reproof free?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. It is in the eye of the beholder, for example...
The Sons of Liberty, the Mau Mau, and the ANC, were terrorists in the eyes of the British. Sometimes we rail against terrorism while turning a blind eye to the governments and events that gave rise to terrorism.
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delad Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. i'd have to agree with that n/t
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. Bullshit
These settlers are in Hebron to do a job, doing exactly what they are doing. This Haretz shit is just 'plausible denialability' gunk.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Care to provide some evidence for your assertion?
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. How long has this garbage being going on ?
All the time I been down here. So that is at least 7 years that I know of.

How many isreali troops to protect them ?

2000-4000.
You don't spend that amount of money for no reason.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. The security arrangement in Hebron
is specified in several signed agreements between the Israelis and Palestinians (oslo accords/hebron aggreement/osloII). Hebron has a very long history as a jewish center, a lot longer than 7 years, more like 2000.

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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. Oslo 2 Hebron agreement
interesting read

Oslo II agreement - Guidelines for Hebron

ARTICLE VII

Guidelines for Hebron

1. a. There will be a redeployment of Israeli military forces in the city of Hebron except for places and roads where arrangements are necessary for the security and protection of Israelis and their movements. The areas of such redeployment are delineated by red and blue lines and shaded in orange stripes on a yellow background on attached map No. 9 (hereinafter "Area H-1").

b. This redeployment will be completed not later than six months after the signing of this Agreement.

2. a. The Palestinian Police will assume responsibilities in Area H-1 similar to those in other cities in the West Bank.

b. All civil powers and responsibilities, set out in Annex III of this Agreement, will be transferred to the Council in the City of Hebron as in the other cities in the West Bank.

c. Palestinian police stations or posts will be established in Area H-1, manned by a total of up to 400 policemen, equipped with 20 vehicles and armed with 200 pistols, and 100 rifles for the protection of those stations.

d. The Palestinian Police shall operate freely in Area H-1. Any activity or movement by it outside this area will be carried out after co-ordination and confirmation through the DCO established in paragraph 6 of this Article.

e. The Imara will be turned over to the Palestinian side upon the completion of the redeployment, and will become the headquarters of the Palestinian Police in the city of Hebron.

3. According to the DOP, Israel will continue to carry the responsibility for overall security of Israelis for the purpose of safeguarding their internal security and public order.

4. a. In the area of the city of Hebron from which Israel military forces will not re-deploy, as delineated by red and blue lines on attached map No. 9 (hereinafter "Area H-2"), Israel will retain all powers and responsibilities for internal security and public order.

b. In Area H-2, the civil powers and responsibilities will be transferred to the Council, except for those relating to Israelis and their property which shall continue to be exercised by Israeli Military Government.

c. In Area H-2, plainclothes unarmed municipal inspectors will monitor and enforce vis-à-vis Palestinians, compliance with the laws and regulations, within the civil powers and responsibilities transferred to the Council in Hebron.

5. The Municipality of Hebron will continue to provide all municipal services to all parts of the city of Hebron.

6. a. A DCO will be located at Har Manoakh (Jabal Manoah).

b. Upon completion of the redeployment of Israeli military forces, a JMU will operate throughout the city of Hebron, including in the Old City, if required to do so by the above mentioned DCO.

c. A Joint Patrol will function in Hebron on the road from Ras e-Jura to the north of the Dura junction via E-Salaam road and on Route No. 35.

d. Three months after the completion of the redeployment, the DCO will consider the reassignment of the Joint Patrol to other parts of Hebron.

7. Measures and procedures for normalising life in the Old City and on the roads of Hebron will be taken immediately after the signing of this Agreement, as follows:

a. opening of the wholesale market - Hasbahe, as a retail market;

b. removal of the barrier on the road leading from Abu Sneineh to Shuhada Road in order to facilitate the movement on these roads;

c. reopening of the main entrance to the Islamic College;

d. replacement of the closed roadblock at the Ras e-Jura junction by a normally open traffic supervision system;

e. replacement of the roadblock at the Harsina junction by a regular position;

f. opening of the route from the Sa’air Shiukh road to Hebron;

g. opening of the Tnuva Road; and

h. removal of the two barriers in the vicinity of the Raranta School near the North Dura junction.

8. A high level Joint Liaison Committee will be established in order to deal with the security situation in Hebron after completion of the redeployment.

9. a. Since the two sides are unable to reach agreement regarding the Tomb of the Patriarchs / Al Haram Al Ibrahimi, they have agreed to keep the present situation as is.

b. Three months after the redeployment the high level Joint Liaison Committee will review the situation.

10. There will be a Temporary International Presence in Hebron (TIPH). Both sides will agree on the modalities of the TIPH, including the number of its members and its area of operation.

11. Immediately after the completion of the redeployment, measures must be taken to ensure a stable and secure situation throughout the Hebron area, free from efforts to undermine this Agreement or the peace process.

12. Hebron will continue to be one city, and the division of security responsibility will not divide the city.


http://www.tiph.org/en/About_TIPH/Oslo_II_Agreement_-_Guidelines_for_Hebron/

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