Hamas Knows One Big Thing

DECEMBER 30, 2008

Hamas Knows One Big Thing
By BRET STEPHENS
WSJ

(snip)

But Hamas knows one big thing, which it labels "resistance" or, for Western audiences, "ending the occupation." Just what that means was made clear by Palestinian cleric Muhsen Abu 'Ita in a televised interview. "The annihilation of the Jews here in Palestine," he said, "is one of the most splendid blessings for Palestine."

This kind of genocidal incitement is more than idle ranting: Gigantic ambitions sustain political movements through hard times. Hamas is also sustained by the insight that Israel's considerable military capabilities are unlikely to be matched by political will. It believes that whatever attacks come will be tempered by a host of humanitarian and diplomatic considerations. It believes that Israel wants to avoid a public relations debacle (so Hamas will do everything it can to engineer or fabricate one). It believes that the weight of international sympathy will be on its side. It believes, too, that the last thing Israel wants is to reoccupy Gaza, with all the costs and complications that entails.

Hamas believes, in short, that while Israel will do many things, and do them well, it will not do the main thing. And that, in turn, means that as Israel exhausts its target list, as eventually it will, the storm will pass. Then the green flag of the movement will fly defiantly over the tallest building left standing, its prestige hugely boosted -- and Israel's commensurately diminished -- throughout the Muslim world.

(snip)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123059693797741083.html

Both the IDF and Hamas are equally evil

Just sit and take it?

For example - send out assassins to take out the Hamas leadership.

Or they could do nothing. And perhaps that's what the should do.

But as long as Hamas is in charge and is allowing attacks on Israel, it's kind of up to the Israelis in terms of what they need to do to defend themselves.

I'm not sure carpet bombing is accurate anyway.

Is that better?

Sorry, but I'm not as sure as you are of the accuracy of your information.

And that the 200+ people who died were all guilty Hamas terrorists?

I'm saying that I'm not sure the Israeli actions were indiscriminate.

I don't know either way. Is that a crime to admit that I don't know?

I'm pretty sure the Israelis aren't happy about it either.

However while your heart is clearly in the right place I don't think your judgment is fair.

- No one is supporting them externally
- Many Palestinians are turning against them in Gaza and the West Bank
- The PA is openly talking about resuming control in Gaza
- Egypt will not full open Rafah until Hamas is gone
- Their people, comms, buildings, infrastructure, and material are decimated

Its really a bad day to be a Hamas member

There are a lot more Hamas member than the 200+ who were killed in the air strikes. The remaining ones have a lot less comms, infrastructure, material, and heavy weapons. That's why buildings are very legitimate targets.

Hamas chose to put there weapons development, manufacturing, storage and launch sites in populated areas, knowing that when the attacks came civilians would die. Its called human shields. Its illegal and immoral, but Hamas did it anyway.

Doesn't mean they should do it

If they really wanted to eliminate Hamas, a tactical surgical strike would be in better order than indiscriminate bombing.

80% Hamas casualties is amazingly good considering the circumstances. One can argue if it should have been done, but the way it was done was is about as good as it gets.

The goal was to take out as much of the infrastructure, comms, records, facilities, material, and heavy weapons in addition to personnel at once so warning could not be sent out. Could not do that with special ops

There is a lot more risk to the attacker when you use special ops vice air strikes. There will be incidents somewhere and surprise and effectiveness will be lost. Israel was under no onus to take an approach that put that many of its troops at risk.

The TV show the Unit is great fiction and bad real life.

It isnt

No matter how many backflips you can do, dehumanizing "them" or whatnot

and missiles are being smuggled, then yes. And, by the way, the Israelis have warned the people of Gaza to leave such buildings.

What should have been done by the Egyptians is to control such smuggling. Who is providing the arms and who pays for them? Iran, I suppose.

Like the launchers hidden in the building which were moved to the rooftop to fire.
The university which even the PA reported was a weapons research facility for Hamas.
Hamas HQ
Multiple large weapons caches
The tunnels to Egypt used to smuggle in explosives & weapons (ever wonder how Hamas fires 3000+ rockets yet never seems to run out).

If the target was the building then you hit the building.

The sad reality is that in EVERY WAR civilians are hurt.

Nobody is denying civilians weren't hurt or killed.
There were no carpet bombings. IF there were the casualties would be in the hundreds of thousands.
There was no indiscriminate targeting of civilians.

Even reports from Hamas indicate the IDF hit Hamas assets hard (launchers, explosives, weapons caches, HQ, command & control, key leaders, etc).

The numbers this morning were that about 300 of the dead were Hamas. About 50 were civilians. And while 1 dead civilian is one too many, the idea the Israel is slaughtering hundrends of sleeping children is simply not true.

May I also point out that Hamas, like Hezboallah to the north, purposefully locates bomb/rocket making facilities and launchers near civilian homes, schools and mosques. It serves a 2-fold purpose: Israel may hestitate to fire on them and risk civilian deaths. Or, if Israel does fire on them and kills civilians, the pictures from those attacks can serve as a sick kind of PR. Hamas is using these people as human shields. When you see the bodies of civilians, you are seeing exactly what Hamas wants you to see.

Israel is not pure in all of this. It has made numerous mistakes, and should be doing so much more to ease the plight of the Palestinians. But Hamas are not some sort of proud, noble freedom fighters, either.

WTF??

I don't think any bomb has that kind of accuracy rate...

into the mid 90s for physical function. Upper nineties for navigation accuracy

But there are thing you can do to keep things in check. One is to only go after identified legitimate targets. What you should not do it random launches at civilians areas with no military value. Israel is doing the former, Hamas is doing the latter.

I suspect, however, that despite your baby splitting you are being more reasonable than those who claim that Israel is slaughtering sleeping children.

I don't have an answer for Israel. Do you?

Full disclosure: I am a currently studying towards my conversion to Conservative Judaism. My best friend was an officer in the IDF during the Lebannon war in the early 1980s. In the current conflict, I think that Israel is right to attempt to neutralize Hamas. I don't know if it is going to work, but if I had that kind of crystal ball, I wouldn't have to work, now would I? :)

But I'm not going to say that Israel is perfect in all of this. It isn't. But it must defend itself, and I think that is what it is doing right now.

apparently one does not have to be a Hamas fighter to be a target, nope a traffic cop or studying to be one your Hamas, sweep floors in a Hamas building that would be all schools, hospitals, Mosques, and other non combat related government buildings your Hamas, husband, son, brother ,father do one of these jobs they're Hamas and if you assist Hamas by letting one of those mentioned stay in your house well then your Hamas too, see how easy basically using the Israeli propaganda rules 90% of the people in Gaza are Hamas so it is a matter of redefining Hamas vs civilian and it is apparently working.

Good thing they nipped that in the bud. :eyes:

Even Palestinian sources have said Israel stuck to Hamas targets. Casualties are running about 80% Hamas. Collateral damages, including civilian casualties are never a good thing, but its nowhere near the same as "indiscriminately killing innocent people"

"If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing."

Right? Or, are Palestinian children ok to kill... :shrug:

Hasn't anyone who is doing all those backflips to absolve Israel read that bit where "violence begets violence"

I mean, fuck - didn't anyone watch the Brady Bunch?

A massive Brady Bunch infusion is called for. STAT. This shit would never be tolerated in the Brady household. :hi:

And assassination is a damn site harder than you seem to think it is. It much higher risk as well.

Then there was that other approach where Hamas quits shelling Israel so the Isrealis let up and eventually peace breaks out.

If you are going in for a revenge killing I hope you understand it is higher risk

It has been a clear targeting of Hamas personnel, facilities, material, comms, and heavy weapons with the stated purpose of ensuring that the attacks on Israel would stop. A openly stated secondary goal is the removal of Hamas from power in Gaza. I haven't seen anything about revenge killings.

Hamas is Israel's bastard child.
Israel is a nuclear power. Palestine is armed with home made rockets, AK47's and rocks from the rubble cause be Israel's air strikes on mosques and people's homes.

Israel has a well trained, well equipped military. What does Palestine have? See above.

Any peace has to come from Israel. Like that is going to happen as long as the United States is supplying and backing Israel.

Typical freeper "they hate us for our freedom" bullshit

If you would bother to search - though I doubt it - you will find plenty of WSJ stories and opinion pieces that are praised here by many, even make it to the Homepage. And the WSJ has plenty of opinions from the left - even Kerry and other Democrats submitted op-eds. And it has letters and comments sections that criticize many of its stories and op-eds.

Try to find something like that with the Iranian paper. But.. no... Iran and Venezuela can do no wrong.

is scared of being 'annihilated' by Hamas. Laughable.

and no one on DU has the courage to look at what Hamas really says and does.

The article above speaks the truth, and it is UNprogressive to be in favor of murderous miliants who do put their citizens at risk, murder them, deprive them of rights, etc.

I'd like to see an honest discussion about this.

Haven't yet, but we could always hope.

Up there with the KKK or the Nazis

But the people who are suffering aren't them

IN fact, most likely Hamas is overjoyed. They have all kinds of suffering to parade around suburban Riyadh, so they can beg for more cash

I just want the killing to STOP

Playing nice, giving cash, weapons, land, other concessions, hasn't worked.

Sonic booms, targeted kidnapping, and closing the borders hasn't worked.

The wall and checkpoint have worked in the WB, but what would you suggest that Israel do about 6000 rockets in eight years from Gaza, now with longer range and more capacity to kill people?

Just take them lying down?

Rather than addressing the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians, the world positions one side as righteous and the other side as evil, fueling the battle for decade after decade, enriching the weapon developers and providers, be they American, Chinese, Russian, French, etc. There is no easy agreement to be reached between Hamas an Israel, but the fact is war simply pushes people further to the right. Just as the election of Bush and defeat of Saddam helped lead to victories by radicals in Iran, it will serve the same end in Palestine and Israel. When people are scared, when people see their families or property destroyed, they are willing to support those who promise to be tough. We saw that after 9/11 with Bush here at home. Israel's war now is victory for the right wing fanatics on both sides, and anyone who supports Israel in their aggression is playing the fool (or is far right).