Four deaths, not one answer

The Guardian

Tom Hurndall, a 22-year-old student and peace activist from Tufnell Park, north London, on life support machine in UK after being shot on April 11. Family inquiry accuses Israel of 'fabricating evidence' to justify shooting. Authorities say a soldier fired at an unidentified gunman

Rachel Corrie, an American peace activist, 23, was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer on March 16 as she defended Palestinian homes in Gaza Strip. The army described the incident as a 'regrettable accident' and said the protesters were acting 'irresponsibly'. Her parents want the US Congress to investigate

James Miller, a British TV cameraman and documentary maker, 34, was shot in the neck on May 2 in Rafah. Authorities said he was killed in a crossfire, and was at risk by entering a 'combat zone'. The family lawyer described the killing as 'criminal'

Iain Hook, a 50-year-old from Felixstowe heading a UN project to rebuild Jenin refugee camp, was shot in the back on November 22 during an Israeli incursion. The army says he was shot standing near gunmen in the UN compound and have paid the family compensation. A secrecy clause suppressed an Israeli admission of culpability.

Wait, murdering bastards who also have a side-business in cover-ups.

:grr:

I bet Tony is working hard to uncover the truth huh.

All they have to do is blame the victim and there are no consequences whatsoever.

accidentally. And the old Corrie fable is drudged up again. Oh, my.

Well, we don't know that, do we? Not until an investigation takes place, of course.

What's wrong with an investigation taking place, Herschel?

for each incident. I admit I am not familiar with the depth of the reviews of these incidents. These people risked their lives by putting themselves in these situations. Surely you don't believe they were murdered. What possible reason could there be?

SO?

Rhetoric is rhetoric. Do we believe the illegitimate occupant of the White House when he says that he is trying his best to find the leak?

An investigation has not occured. Murder is certainly a possibility.

Actually an investigation has been issued and seems rather reasoned to me. Now you may dismiss anything the iDF reports, because of your personal beliefs, but then you need to provide facts and evidence to the contrary. Otherwise your dismissal of the report would just be ‘rhetoric.’ And please don't compare an iDF investigation and report to the hysterics of anti-Israeli ISM members who swear she was killed, because Sharon is a monster. That is not evidence. Its partisanship and hatred

American Rachel Corrie was killed in the Gaza Strip on March 16, 2003, when she entered an area where Israeli forces were carrying out a military operation. The incident occurred while IDF forces were removing shrubbery along the security road near the border between Israel and Egypt at Rafah to uncover explosive devices, and destroying tunnels used by Palestinian terrorists to illegally smuggle weapons from Egypt to Gaza. Corrie was not demonstrating for peace or trying to shield innocent civilians, she was interfering with a military operation to legally demolish an empty house used to conceal one of these tunnels.
A misleading photo published by the Associated Press gave the impression that Corrie was standing in front of the bulldozer and shouting at the driver with a megaphone, trying to prevent the driver from tearing down a building in the refugee camp. This photo, which was taken by a member of Corrie’s organization, was not shot at the time of her death, however, but hours earlier. The photographer said that Corrie was actually sitting and waving her arms when she was struck.23
Israel’s Judge Advocate’s Office investigated the incident and concluded that the driver of the bulldozer never saw or heard Corrie because she was standing behind debris that obstructed the view of the driver whose field of view was limited by the small armored windows of his cab. An autopsy found that the cause of Corrie’s death was falling debris.24
The State Department warned Americans not to travel to Gaza, and Israel made clear that civilians who enter areas where troops are engaged in counter-terror operations put themselves unnecessarily at risk.
This was not the first time protestors have tried to obstruct Israeli operations, and the IDF has made every effort to avoid harming them. This case received worldwide publicity in large measure because it was the first such incident where a protestor was killed. In fact, the army had told Corrie and other demonstrators from the anti-Israel International Solidarity Movement (ISM) to move out of the way. “It’s possible they were not as disciplined as we would have liked,” admitted Thom Saffold, a founder and organizer of ISM.25
The death of an innocent civilian is always tragic, and the best way to avoid such tragedies in the future is, first and foremost, by the Palestinian Authority putting an end to violence, and stopping the smuggling operations that have brought huge quantities of illegal weapons into the Gaza Strip. Activists interested in peace should be protesting the Palestinian actions. Activists also have every right to express their views about Israel’s policies, but they should take care to avoid the appearance of siding with the terrorists or placing themselves in positions where they could be inadvertently caught in the crossfire of a counter-terror operation or otherwise endangered by entering an area where military operations are being conducted.

“No matter how you turn the question, Rachel Corrie's death Sunday is a tragedy....But Corrie's death is no more tragic than the deaths of other young people — some of them young Americans who had traveled to Israel — who died in bombings committed by Palestinian terrorists. They're also worth remembering this day. However you feel about Corrie's actions, whether she was a martyr or misguided, she at least made her choice. Palestinian terrorists didn't give the young people killed in their bombings any choice in their deaths. That, it seems to us, is another kind of tragedy for these young Americans and their families.” Oregon Live

Oh my god, more of the sick excuses and justifications. Excuse me but I have to :puke:

For way too long the ISM and its supporters have used this girl's death for propaganda purposes. Should another poor soul die that suits its purposes better they will shunt her aside.

I feel for her parents and the parents of other Americans who have lost their children because of terrorist's bombings of cafes and buses. They are the people who will never ever have a peaceful nights sleep again. Despite the fact that their offspring were on opposite sides of the issue, they are bonded together in their grieving.

A tear for for Rachal Corrie's parents without a tear for Lisa Flatow's parents is hypocrisy in its highest form.

And for everyone who has decried the death of Rachel Corrie and have said or done nothing for Lori Berenson (pictured below) you are the biggest hypocrites of all. For those of you unfamiliar with Lori's story, all you have to do is click on the link provided. Mark and Rhoda Berenson are in need of your outrage also, if you are really concerned about an American activist.

At least we're not looking for excuses any time an Israeli or American civilian is killed, which could be hardly said for the other side that ALWAYS when someone confronts them with Israeli's crimes (either against Palestinians or cases like Corrie and other peace activists) starts with the justifying, excuses and bringing everything else, just avoiding the main subject which in this case would be Rachel Corrie. That is one of the biggest and main differences here. Obviously expecting the same from some of you (condemning it WITHOUT the usual justfying and excusing) is too much for some of you.

that I, or the others who question the IDF's claim that Rachel Corrie's death was an accident, DON'T decry both?

I have repeatedly indicated that I am against suicide bombings. All of the victims of such crimes against humanity deserve to be recognized and remembered. At the same time, though, we cannot forget those innocents killed on the Palestinian side.

Lori Berenson - like all others imprisoned without proper trial by any government anywhere - deserves to be freed as soon as possible. Her continued imprisonment is a violation of human rights.

I guess I'm not much of a hypocrite, am I?

I can only agree with what Darranar said. To me there is no difference between Lori or Rachel. I feel sorry for both of them. They are both innocent. One killed, one without freedom. Do you agree with that or NOT?

see this link: www.freelori.org

I know, I know I corrected it, sorry ;-)

Not the kind of question I would prefer to ask a person as it's not a very fair one framed this way.

Sorry, I meant from a reasonable third party - not some propaganda piece by the IDF.

Everyone knows that the whole world is against Israel. This is just another propaganda tool.

And what good would an investigation do? Would it bring back to life the young woman Rachel Corrie? Are you hoping it might incriminate someone in the IDF, or the monster Sharon, the master of all crime in half the world?

the statement "everyone knows that the whole world is against Israel" is a propaganda tool.

The investigation might indeed incriminate someone. Isn't it good when justice is served?

Maybe not the first time, however. It has been stated by the supporters of the Palestinian side.

regardless of who said it.

But see for example

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=24042

In which several posts contain the essence of the message.

not against Israel. There's a difference.

"The Wall" is only the current context. There are several other examples opposed to Israel's self-defense.

killing innocent people, sometimes needlessly, yes, there are examples.

in Israel. Neither are deaths of Israeli innocents.

Everyone knows that the whole world is against Israel.

Nonsensical hyperbole...

And what good would an investigation do? Would it bring back to life the young woman Rachel Corrie? Are you hoping it might incriminate someone in the IDF, or the monster Sharon, the master of all crime in half the world?

One would hope that an investigation might incriminate a guilty party,if there is one,and find out the closest thing to the truth as possible.If no one is found guilty then the issue can be put to rest.Either way the right thing gets done.That's what an investigation might accomplish.

Why are you so against this idea?

This implies that the investigation by whomever (The biased EU? The Arab League? The UN commision which contains both?) questions the Army and it's solders. This is not allowed by the US or any other country. This looks like a lynching party to me.

the UN could do it, the US, and a host of other institutions.

of the enlisted soldiers. Only the military or the government of Israel has the right to investigate.

Does it violate the rights of Slobodan Milosevic to be tried?

And who says any trial will result from this investigation?

not an enlisted soldier. There is no investigation planned. The goal of any investigation would be to discover cause and determine responsibility, is it not? Either the man was negligent, or he was not.

Any human being has to use his judgement when carrying out orders. He was not a negotiator for Israel and had no authority to negotiate the legality of the demolition, the shrubery he was removing, or whatever.

If an investigation finds out that someone is responsible for killing these people, they can be charged with murder. They will be tried, not in a UN court, but in an Israeli court. What's wrong with that?

Did you ever see from the inside of one of those bulldozers? There is very limited vision. The young woman was responsible for her own life. No one else was.

I don't know if the attack was deliberate or not, nor do I claim to know, but I think it should be investigated.

I guess if you have people screaming around you waving their hands even if you claim you do not see anyone (even which I highly doubt) there's nothing curious going on around you..

That someone from Israel would intentionally roll over a peace activist is something not possible in your world. Only the Arabs are capable of doing such horrible things. Just not the most moral people on earth...

Not the kind you see on your home turf. This are specially made for combat zones. The windows are high and bullet-proof. Not made for sight-seeing.

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Is this another typo?

Does everyone at DU get their own personal copy write editor?

"Israel is evil" is a statement I have never believed.

And pieces by the IDf are certainly not objective, however much they're spinned as "factually-based investigations"...

It is a summary of the IDF's findings, written by a ChronWatch commentator I think. Or perhaps some blog. I forget which.

that doesn't make much of a difference, though, unless the wirter was biased towards one side or another.

A simple equation:

ChronWatch commentator = Lunatic.

Use that, you won't go far wrong ;-) :D

That could prove useful.

Then share with us how you reach your opinions, because if you do not then I simply draw my own conclusions on how you arrive at these. You disagree with my conclusions about your thinking process. Fine. But you still have provided us with nothing to show us why you dismiss facts from bias 'factual' sources and go with the spin.

You may wonder why I spend effort to try to understand the role of logical, critical thinking and construction in arguments. The slogans and spin appeal to those on the left and right who are prone to idelogically-based arguments. I witnessed how these arguments were used in the anti-Iraq war movement. It was a complete failure. The slogans; stop the racist war, don't fight Israel's War-Free Palestine, No blood for OIL, This is a War on Islam' did not work because people knew institutively that they were not true, were illogical and di not compare well to the seemingly well reasoned, empathetic arguments from the Right. More importantly the slogans failed to appeal to traditional liberal values that should have been the fountain from which we appealed to people to move against the war. Conservatives have reconstructed their unpopular, elitist ideological arguments around a logical, factoid-based platform that appeals more to the middle class. Unfortunately political Liberals have floundered in there ability to carry their message forward.

And how exactly is it untrue that Bush* went into Iraq for oil and political gain?

If you actually read my posts, you'd see the logic and reasoning behind what I say.

You more or less proved my point:
1) You don't try to engage me on my points to try to convince me or even increase my understanding of other ways of thinking about issues.

2) The issue is not whether you think YOU ARE logical (no one thinks himself or herself illogical), but whether the logic is persuasive. When one is more emotionally attached to their opinion and expressing it than sharing and listening, little progress is made.

JP

why don't you READ them?

Ask me a specific question, and I'll answer it, backed up with logic.

political Liberals also do not have a mass media to call on, like the conservative liars do. The media tells us lies, and conservatives go "see, we told you so".

But those who are honest and uncover the truths on their own will recognize those slogans which you listed as being quite accurate:

* Don't fight Israel's War - Actually the slogan is more like "Don't Support Israel's aggression", but both make sense.

* No blood for oil - I don't have a problem at all with this one.

* This is a War on Islam - I think this is another mischaracterization of the actuall message - it's a war for oil profits, mainly waged against people who are mostly of the Islamic faith.

You say people "instinctively" knew these slogans are not true, yeah well the American people have been having their brains completely washed out with a massive propaganda campaign promoting a right-wing agenda that serves the interest of an elite minority. The slogans only appear illogical because 'the people' are totally duped and ignorant of the realities. The 'Right' seems to be "well reasoned" as you say, because they are the ones feeding the lies and set themselves up to capitalize on them.

"Political Liberals" flounder because they have to work with a public living in a fantasy world.

if you have opinions that are strongly against it, they aren't "logical" and "reasonable" whether or not us leftist retards consider them to be.

Fantastic.

American and Australian shot by Israeli army
By Odai Sirri
Saturday 25 October 2003

Two international peace activists have been shot by Israeli soldiers at a Palestinian refugee camp near Nablus.

Details of the shooting were released to Aljazeera.net within hours of the incident on Friday evening, but the identities of the injured are being witheld until their families can be contacted.

The Australian and American men were both shot in the legs at the Balata refugee camp and were taken to Rafidia Hospital where they are now undergoing treatment.

According to the representatives from the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), the two were shot after escorting Palestinian children away from Israeli soldiers who entered the camp.

ISM officials said two Palestinian boys were hit by rubber bullets, but the American and Australian volunteers were shot with live bullets and remain in hospital.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/01AA7ECA-7018-447B-A10D-9E4139D4788A.htm

Self defense and fighting terrorism will no doubt be the response...

rather than burying it here.