Clinton - Israel has a right to defend itself.

http://tinyurl.com/bdcuwx

There has been speculation that the Obama Administration might be in the beginning stages of a spat with Israel, but based upon that quote it doesn't seem so to me.

I've no doubt we're giving Israel the red ass for what they did last fall.

by the end of the year. I do not know why people take 5 words from a person and pretend that's the entirety of what they said. That's why Israelies and Palestinians continue to die. Neither side will be honest.

"When asked if she shared President Sarkozy belief that there would be a Palestinian state by the end of the year, she said she believed with all her heart it could be done, if those involved were to say “yes, let’s take a chance on peace, and let’s provide the opportunity for the Palestinian people to build and create a better future for their children.”

http://www.obama-mamas.com/blog/?p=188

http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2009a/03/119929.htm

I think securing an autonomous Palestinian state is one of the best ways to improve Israel's security situation--assuming it's done right. It would certainly take the wind out of the sails for a lot of extremists using the Palestinians' limbo status to recruit out of work youngsters and spread their hatred. But getting Hamas under control seems to be the central stumbling block to an independent Palestine. If Clinton can help orchestrate that, she's a miracle worker.

She also said that.

She said a lot more over the course of the last few days. I linked to her comments at the Gaza Conference.

People worry about losing reporting when all reporters usually do is take politicians' statements out of context. The statements are all online now. People need to start going to the source instead of continuing to feed these media monstrosity that does nothing but lie to us and build dissention.

You never hear anyone say "France has a right to defend itself" or "Ghana has the right to defend itself." Anyone who declares "Israel has the right to defend itself" is either intentionally dumbing down the conversation or is contradicting an opinion not worthy of response.

I say this without regard to any side of view of the debate about Israeli tactics in defending itself. It's simply a variation on the theme in other arguments that leads people to say things like "Why do you hate America?" or "You forgot to use the sarcasm smily." I'm glad to argue with people who don't try to win points by insulting my intelligence.

land that wasn't made sovereign to its control via the United Nations in 1948. The West Bank and Gaza are captured terrorities and don't necessarily belong to Israel as spoils of war. If the Six Day War hadn't occurred, Israel would have to make peace with the borders.

Does that mean I agree with all of Israeli foreign policy? No, but no nation should have to tolerate rockets being fired into its own territory.

I'm quite certain, for example, that all of the Hugo Chavez apologists on this board would turn into big time superhawks if some other country fired rockets into Venezuela's territory.

airstrikes on apartment blocks trying to kill a single terrorist suspect, Mossad kidnappings on foreign soil, and so on.

you wouldn't have had Mossad kidnap Adolf Eichmann?

he was convicted of war crimes and crimes against humanity at Nuremberg, just a tad different.

certain circumstances. You didn't indicate that in your OP.

Even though Eichmann was a fugitive, nonetheless his abduction was carried off without the knowledge or the approval of the Argentine government.

Israel should have requested that the Argentine government detain and then deport him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Palestinian_National_Authority

It all makes for an interesting game of "semantics", designed by ...the world's greatest arms dealer...

As in declaring a "war" that isn't a "war", where prisoners of "war" aren't prisoners of "war", they're "enemy combatants". Where civil law may be overriden by martial law made up on the fly, because it really is a "war", y'know. A very conveniently defined "war" that cannot possibly have an end.

This is how our LEADERS speak to us.

what exactly does that mean? What exactly can Israel do to defend itself and keep the anti-Israel movement off its back? They can't damage any buildings, crops, kill or hurt unarmed terrorists, hurt any civilians collaterally, and they still need to be responsible tending to the needs of all. So what options are available to Israel in order to defend itself from rocket attacks the past 29 out of 35 days since the end of OCL?

This should be good.

Palestinians who fled from their properties have a right to return.
Israel could admit that the past was the past and the present is the present, and there's equal suffering to go around.
That in the end everyone is equal.

that sure is an interesting defense.....i wonder if hamas and Hisballa and islamic jihad would agree with you?...that said, humor me and lets assume that hamas in effect doesnt really care for israel admitting that everyone is equal and is more concerned with terrorizing and trying to kill israelis daily....

and since i believe you say israel has the right to defend itself.....what shall israel do tomorrow as the kassams fly......

one note: writing "i dont know" doesnt work, because that means you have preference for the kassams to land and terrorize vs israel doing something to reduce their firing..on the other hand, it may be your preference given the limited options, if so please state clearly.

Your so fond of asking yet never answer yourself.

and after that....silence:....is that the preferred method over here? obviously that kind of "defense" is merely a cover for saying: hamas will keep on shooting and terrorizing israeli daily and israel in fact should do nothing to stop them.....

i would guess that is your preference since though i've asked so many times, you dont seem to have the courage to actually answer...never and i've been asking for quite a long time ....and you've avoided answering for quite a long time......

____________

my solution?

accept that fact that hamas is the governing body of gaza and that they are responsable for the happenings within:

bomb hamas-every hamas govt building, every training field etc for every kassam, mortar fired....make it so working for hamas is not a good idea. Borders closed until gilad is returned....hamas has it in its power to to live in peace with israel, for reasons that are their own, they prefer to try to kill israelis daily....that should not be an acceptable situation. They are the responsible party, they should understand they're are consequences for their actions..

i have no idea if it will stop the rockets, i do believe it will affect those who are making the decisions to import, manufacture and launch them and consequently reduce the amount being fired. Stopping them is an internal hamas matter, israel can only attempt to have an influence....

that was what Cast Lead was about wasn't it? So are you saying that Israel should not have withdrawn and kept up the bombing and shelling, how many "Hamas" do you think need to be killed before the rockets stop?

BTW not getting the answer you want is not the same as not getting an answer.

the question is what should israel do tomorrow to stop the kassams? and what does it mean for the people surrounding gaza tomorrow?

not answering directly, with some vague-non operative answer (as you like to do) is called "avoiding the question" ...and i suspect you'll waste a lot of bandwidth with the "i've already answered that....as opposed to trying again with specifics.


and no my solution was not tried......no time limit.....as the kassams fly, the bombs are dropped, the borders are closed. As long as they try to kill and terrorize israelis, hamas should get payed in return......(israel should not be in gaza, that is hamas/PA to govern as they see fit)

i have no idea how many hamasnikim need to be "killed" buildings destroyed, before hamas and the gazans decide its not a good policy, that is for them to decide.....

closed crossings, bombings, are exactly what has been going on since Israel left Gaza. I spent some time going over threads dating back into the fall of 2005 and found that in reality not much has changed the crossings agreement was a joke at best, but your solution is on going warfare you are right that has not been tried, perhaps that will need to happen but not to stop kassams because it will not accomplish that

ongoing warfare.....no interference of politics..its called a war of attrition...it happened with egypt in the 1970's.....until Egypt decided to stop shooting...and then the war ended.

but, the bombing should be limited to hamas as much as possible, its govt buildings, its launching sites (all of them), its underground bunkers etc.....i do not pretend to know the outcome, read the future, know the hamas politics of who will take over as hamasnikim leave the movement or are killed....but i do believe hamas is the responsible party and as such have to grasp the consequences for their rockets......who knows....after years of being bombed some change might occur.

but the other alternative, which has been for almost 2 years is absurd....having a neighboring society lob rockets into ones cities, with almost no consistent reaction from israel, borders on the insane.

but unfortunately or fortunately depending your government is smarter than that

why not admit like some others here that so long as occupation continues, Israel has no right to militarily go after Hamas for rockets?

actually more than a year ago look it up

so let's say they turn over more land and more rockets fall on Israel, then what? What can Israel do militarily in self-defense? Anything at all? Does Israel have a right to defend itself, in your opinion?

Israel has a right to defend itself, but not to use force to maintain control of the territories it is occupying.

As long as the occupation continues, Israeli military action to preserve it won't *be* self-defence, so to what extent Israel has a right to defend itself will be a purely academic question.

As to the canard that returning some land didn't help - of course it didn't. If I stand on both your feet and then take my weight off one of them, I don't have a right to act surprised if you continue trying to knock me over.

Israel needs to end the occupation - not just some of it, all of it. Then it will have a right to use force against the Palestinians if violence continues, and not before.

to the militants in the Palestinian leadership, ALL of Israel is occupied.

Ending the occupation is ending Israel.

Israelis aren't that suicidal.

maintaining the occupation of the West Bank indefinitely? Does withholding pasta, notebooks, and hearing aides equate to "self defense"?

is that what you're saying? Israel currently has no right to self-defense?

Critically important difference there.

Until there is a contiguous Palestinian state, Jerusalem as at least a shared capital, and with Palestinians in control of all their land, sea, and air, access routes, Israel is still in the wrong.

that isn't going to happen.

It's their lot.

They have no instrinsic rights worth recognizing.

FYI this is the title...why not locked per I/P guidelines???? Already alerted.

that this OP breaks I/P rules that the thread is still not locked.

Guess things just work differently for different people....

US Congresswoman: Tie Gaza Aid to Shalit Release

United States Congresswoman Shelley Berkley of Nevada has drafted a petition that would tie America's aid to Gaza to the release of kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. The petition will be sent to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

The petition also calls to suspend the aid payments until Hamas-run Gaza stops targeting Israeli civilians with frequent rocket attacks.

Clinton pledged $900 million in U.S. aid at a donors' conference in Egypt earlier this week. One-third of the money, $300 million, will go to Gaza, while the remaining $600 million is intended for the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority in Judea and Samaria.

Clinton assured Israel that the money sent to Gaza would not fall into Hamas' hands, and would be used for “urgent” humanitarian needs.


snip

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/130294

... Hamas will refuse to trade a corpse for aid.

jmo

will see children go hungry when they owe favors

Shelley Berkley REPRESENTATIVE (D - NV)
Shelley Berkley

Choose your cycle:
First Elected: 1998
Next Election: 2008
Committee Assignments:

* Veterans' Affairs
* Ways and Means

Top 5 Industries, 2007-2008
Casinos/Gambling $232,230
Health Professionals $185,185
Real Estate $141,796
Lawyers/Law Firms $140,295
Pro-Israel $123,471


http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00009818

Shelley Berkley of Nevada can pound sand...

Ms Berkley pouring cement