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Who Is Human Rights Watch’s Joe Stork?

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:49 AM
Original message
Who Is Human Rights Watch’s Joe Stork?
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 09:55 AM by pelsar
He is, of course, the author of last week’s Human Rights Watch report, which claimed that IDF soldiers murdered white-flag-waving Palestinian civilians in cold blood

The translation is from an article from the Israeli newspaper, Maariv. So spare me the complaining about the link to commentary magazine....also read about the author who wrote it:

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/pollak/76201
__________________________________

A word about the Author.....

The article is by a journalist called Ben-Dror Yemini. this is what Wikipedia says about him:

He supports the Two-state solution and opposes the settlements in the West Bank. He argues that the extreme right and the extreme left lead to the same goal of One-state solution. His articles concerning the Israeli-Arab conflict and his comparative studies led him to become the most translated Israeli journalist and a widely invited speaker about criticism of Israel.
_______________________________________

but i found the article about Stork rather amusing, not surprising..... the good stuff, a few tidbits:


He also was opposed to any negotiations since this meant recognizing its existence:

“Munich and similar actions cannot create or substitute for a mass revolutionary movement,” the statement said, “But we should comprehend the achievement of the Munich action…It has provided an important boost in morale among Palestinians in the camps.”

Murder and terrorism, if so, are a matter of moral

----

any wonder why every israeli i know doesn't take HRW seriously......
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. I love reading slanderous right wing trash
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 11:38 AM by subsuelo
Commentary magazine, edited by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Podhoretz">John Podhoretz.

:eyes:

When you're done reading disinformation articles suited for right-wing gossip rags, let us know!


Podhoretz served as speechwriter to former U.S. President Ronald Reagan as well as former President George H.W. Bush. He also served in the capacity of special assistant to White House Drug Czar William Bennett. He was co-founder as well of the White House Writers Group, a corporate speechwriting and public-relations firm in Washington, D.C.

...
Podhoretz was a steadfast supporter of U.S. president George W. Bush, and his 2004 book Bush Country called Bush "the first great leader of the 21st century". When some conservatives denounced Bush's immigration plan, Podhoretz wrote that Bush's "efforts on behalf of conservative causes — from faith-based policies to stem-cell research to a strict-constructionist judiciary to entitlement reform and massive tax cuts — have all fallen down the memory hole".

Podhoretz has supported the Iraq War from its inception until the present. In his book, Bush Country, he wrote, "The natural terrorist hunger to acquire WMDs, and Saddam Hussein's desire to humiliate the United States, combined to make Iraq a new kind of threat to America and the world." In a July 25, 2006 column for the New York Post that discussed the Israel-Lebanon conflict, Podhoretz wrote: "What if the tactical mistake we made in Iraq was that we didn't kill enough Sunnis in the early going to intimidate them and make them so afraid of us they would go along with anything? Wasn't the survival of Sunni men between the ages of 15 and 35 the reason there was an insurgency and the basic cause of the sectarian violence now?"
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Why is it slanderous?
Technically it could be libelous, because it's in print. However, the big question is, why is it untrue? You haven't posted any evidence at all that the piece (which pelsar pointed out was actually from Ma'ariv and reprinted in Commentary) states anything false. Merely stating that Norman Podhoretz is a conservative doesn't say anything about truth. Now you could say the same thing about the article on Joe Stork except that it says more than that he is a Leftist. Assuming the statements attributed to him are true, then Stork has a real problem with reality that doesn't fit his preconceived ideas.
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Sezu Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Strork and HRW have some
'splainin' to do. One of my longest runnin complaints about HRW and others is that they crossed a threshold from neutrality to activism that can never be undone and thus sealed their fate as honest brokers.
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. The important word is "honest."
Everyone has bias and perspective, and that's fine. But Stork and HRW have shown that they are more interested in their position than the truth.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. yeah, damn these people opposing war crimes
what an awful bias to have, spending their time condemning human rights abuses, and standing up for the victims.

Terrible perspective. We should ignore them because their bias is so horrible.
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. It's about truth.
It's about whether these people who "oppose war crimes" are in fact making up war crimes. If they aren't honest, if they publish accusations that aren't true, if they care more about their point of view than the truth, then we should ignore them.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Of course, a right-wing gossip journal would want you to think that
Wouldn't they
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Well of course they would want me to think that Stork isn't honest.
So what? Are the quotes of Stork from the Ma'ariv article accurate or not? If not, please explain why.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
45. sorry, anyone defending Munich in any way is fucked up.
I was there. I'll never forget the horror of it.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. But it doesn't look like Joe Stork was defending it....
The quote is broken up with the ..... bit, and there's no indication of what the context around it was, but even with what was quoted, it appears to be talking of the affect of Munich on the morale of Palestinians, not giving any support. I was interested to see what the context was, as there looks to be a lot of unsupported attacks on HRW and Joe Stork in the article, and I searched for the article at MERIP, and while the article isn't available online, there is a listing of what articles were in that month's edition, and Joe Stork wasn't listed as the author of that article. If I wander near the uni any time soon, I might stop at the library and grab a copy of that issue of MERIP and have a read of that article to see for myself. But I'm really taking what was said in that article about Stork with a massive grain of salt given that it's just a rehash of stuff that seems to all trace back to NGO Monitor, which is pretty stinky as far as reputable sources go...
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. One isn't 'neutral' about human rights violations and war crimes
You're either for it or against it (or just apathetic). Which are you?

Crying that an organization became "activist" is one of the more pitiful defenses of human rights abuses I've ever heard of.

Besides, HRW doesn't make a claim of "neutrality"

Mission Statement:
Human Rights Watch is dedicated to protecting the human rights of people around the world. We stand with victims and activists to prevent discrimination, to uphold political freedom, to protect people from inhumane conduct in wartime, and to bring offenders to justice. We investigate and expose human rights violations and hold abusers accountable. We challenge governments and those who hold power to end abusive practices and respect international human rights law. We enlist the public and the international community to support the cause of human rights for all.

http://www.hrw.org/en/about

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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. right wing gossip sources are going to get questioned here
Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

Sorry if that bothers you.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. How would you characterize Electronic Intifada as a source?
You recently posted an article from that source on a thread in this forum.

That site is run by someone who is explicitly opposed to the two-state solution.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I hope you're not suggesting Electronic Intifada is right wing
Far from it -- EI has always been consistently on the leftist end of the political dialogue.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Certainly the site is hostile to Obama
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 02:08 PM by oberliner
And I would say that is putting it mildly.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. so?
Certainly you aren't going to try and argue that disagreeing with Obama automatically makes one right-wing?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. I would think that would make them an unwelcome site here
After all, much of the work that has been done on this site recently has been in the service of trying to get Democratic candidates elected - Obama primary among them.

A site that is as hostile to the Democratic Party as this one seems as out of place here as the right-wing site that you criticized above.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. sorry, I really have to doubt your sincerity on that
Progressives disagreeing with progressives is simply not on par with slanderous right-wing gossip magazines.

Not anywhere near it.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. What about Democrats disagreeing with Democrats?
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 02:27 PM by oberliner
You will note in the "About DU" section of this website, it is explicitly stated that this site welcomes "Democrats of all stripes" - does that not include Conservative Democrats?

I would say that "Commentary" and "Electronic Intifada" are equally critical of the Democratic party (for different reasons).

I don't see why one site is ok and the other is not.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. No, they're not equally critical of the Democratic party
This is ridiculous. EI comes from a progressive position, promoting human rights, tolerance, justice, international law, etc.

Right wing gossip trash, as we all know (I would hope) does *not* come from those positions. In fact, just the opposite - they exist to promote intolerance, injustice, inequality, etc.

You really wonder why one is ok and the other isn't?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Can you point to any piece in EI that speaks positively about the Democratic party?
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 03:57 PM by oberliner
Both Electronic Intifada and Commentary make claims about themselves as to what position they come from. Neither claims to promote intolerance, injustice, or inequality. Both, I would argue, represent positions that are in opposition to the positions of the Democratic party in the United States.

To be fair, I would say that EI is perhaps more aligned with Ralph Nader and Commentary with John McCain.

Both of those people can occasionally be right about some things, but each of them actively worked towards the defeat of Barack Obama and Democrats generally.

I would say there is something of an analogous relationship to the two sources.

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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. That is absurd
The idea that EI is "actively working towards the defeat of Barack Obama" is totally absurd.

Tell you what, since you're the one making accusations against them, why don't *you* show me any piece at their site that backs up your made-up claim that they are working to defeat Obama and Democrats generally.

Don't waste your time, though. We both know you made up the claim without anything to go on.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Ralph Nader is the one who actively worked towards the defeat of Barack Obama
I was making an analogy.

To clarify, the intention was to show that sources can be hostile towards the values of the Democratic party from a variety of different perspectives (and occasionally their criticisms can be valid).

We are not going to agree here here but what I think we can agree on is that Electronic Intifada has some fundamental disagreements with Obama on the issues central to the website, as does Commentary Magazine.

This does not mean that either site is incapable of containing factual information. Commentary, being the RW rag that you describe it to be, should be relatively easy to debunk when they present information that is incorrect. If you had simply done that in the first place, it could've saved us both a lot of time!

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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Alright, I agree with most of what you say there
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 04:32 PM by subsuelo
Although I'd like to be clear on something.

Right wing gossip magazines such as Commentary criticize Democrats and Obama from a perspective of opposing human rights, opposing ideals such as freedom, democracy and justice. Whereas progressive sources such as Electronic Intifada often criticize Democrats and/or Obama for not going far enough to protect human rights, freedom, democracy, etc.

*Huge* difference in my view! We shouldn't equate the two on grounds that they are 'critical of Democrats'!


(btw I see now where you were remarking on Nader instead of EI -- sorry for misreading that)
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. And I agree with most of what you say here
Certainly I'm not going to take the position of saying anything positive about Commentary magazine other than that not every single thing written in there is factually inaccurate simply because the source is a RW neocon one. Rush Limbaugh, for instance, will run out of context clips of Democrats saying various things and then he will go on to mischaracterize or manipulate the meaning of what was said. This does not mean that the Democrat in question did not actually say the things that the show runs.

Commentary magazine thinks that they are in favor of the ideals of freedom, democracy, and justice - in fact, they say almost exactly that on their website. Of course, most people can see that the reality is quite different from their claims. However, they do not go around saying that they do not like Obama because he does not support those values. In fact, the whole far right wing media community is going around saying that the main problem is that Obama is anti-"freedom" and is going to create a dictatorship akin to Nazi Germany!

As for EI, you can probably tell that I have a fundamental disagreement with their creator's support of the one-state solution idea, and I would argue that pretty much every Democrat in Congress supports the two-state solution, as I do. But I do concede that their primary focus is on improving the lives of the Palestinian people - a noble and worthwhile goal.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. What's the difference between Conservative Democrats and Democrats?
I was reading about the opposition to public healthcare in the US by Blue Dog Democrats today, and they sounded exactly like conservatives. I don't understand what the difference is (apart from one lot labelling themselves Democrats and the other calling themselves Republicans), so is there much difference? It's just over here there appears to be a divide between Left and Right and I don't see that divide in the US...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Did you mean to write "Conservative Democrats and Repuplicans" ?
I guess a lot of it has to do with stances on social vs. economic issues, among other things.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #39
48. I did, but I think I would have left out the second 'p' in Republicans...
Edited on Wed Aug-19-09 03:20 AM by Violet_Crumble
Seriously, the whole Blue Dog Democrat thing is so bizarre to me. Over here there'd be no confusion and they'd be considered to be conservatives....
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. There are a fair number of Americans who are social liberals and fiscal conservatives
At least that is how they define themselves. Many of them are turned off by some of religious right and their role in the Republican party but don't want to pay higher taxes for social programs and so on.

I think that is who the Blue Dog Democrats group appeals to.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. My impression is that Blue Dogs are pretty much like Conservatives in my country...
perhaps even more RW on health care and welfare state issues.

While there used to be more liberal/moderate Republicans who overlapped with the Blue Dogs, nowadays most Republicans are very hard-line economic libertarians, fundamentalist Christian Righties, or often both. They would be well to the right of our mainstream Tories. Daniel Hannan, the Tory MEP who got involved in the healthcare debate, is very much like a Republican, and has had trouble with the party leadership for being too extreme.

Americans: is this a fairly accurate summary?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. That's my impression too. Over here they'd be Liberals/National Party...
John Howard was considered to be very conservative, and his attempts to destroy Medicare over the years are testament to that, but some of the Blue Dog Democrats in the US would make him look like a bleeding heart small-l liberal. I really do think that what's considered to be conservative in other countries is seen as merely being centrist or a Blue Dog Democrat over in the US. Not really knowing that much about US politics, I'm wondering if the blurring between Left and Right is because they have a two-party system rather than the multi-party system a lot of other countries have...
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. Using your logic, anyone who is serious about Palestinian rights is unwelcome here.
Are you for real?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Is being serious about Palestinian rights incompatible with being a Democrat?
I certainly don't think so.

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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Anyone with 2 brain cells is going to criticize Obama's position. You think we don't belong here?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. People who actively work against Democrats getting elected don't belong here
Edited on Tue Aug-18-09 09:23 PM by oberliner
If someone was hoping that Obama lost the last election (once he had won the primary) and was actively working towards that end - I would say that they do not belong at a site such as this one. It wouldn't matter if they opposed him because they supported a Republican Party candidate, a Green Party candidate, or an Independent candidate.

Edit to add:

I am still eager to read your thoughts on the recent incident between Hamas and Jund Ansar Allah. What is your opinion about what took place?

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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. Haven't thought much about it.
Just got my oldest off to college 2 days ago... I've been pretty swamped.

And let's face it... Dollars to donuts half of your pro-Zionist buds are republicans!
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. What a bizarre statement about my "pro-Zionist buds" being republicans
Edited on Wed Aug-19-09 04:23 PM by oberliner
I've spend a good part of my life actively working to get Democrats elected to office in this country as have my "pro-Zionist buds" - I honestly don't know what world you live in that you would make a statement like that. The vast majority of Democrats in Congress are proud Zionists.

Odd that you've found time to weigh in on other recent discussions here but have yet to formulate an opinion on an action that has been condemned by several human rights organizations as it resulted in the death of several innocent Palestinians including children.

Seems like that would be worth a few moments of your time.

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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. He didn't ask whether they were Left or Right.
He's asking about their credibility. Do they tell the truth, or not? What does being Left or Right have to do with telling the truth?
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. It's about truth and intellectual honesty.
Question Podhoretz' opinions all you want; that doesn't' bother me. But first tell the truth. If your only argument that the article on Joe Stork is false is that it's printed in Podhoretz' conservative publication, then that isn't intellectually honest. I come back to the main issue. Why is the Ma'ariv article false?
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. oh *please*
you went along with questioning Stork as a source, casting his and HRW's trustworthiness into doubt. But then you don't like it when the sources *you align with* are questioned.

Please spare us the sermonizing.
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I question Stork because he's said things that call into question
his honesty. When he questions "academic neutrality," that's problematic, and has nothing to do with his political positions. All you did was argue that Podhoretz is a conservative.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. And I question right-wing gossip magazines
this is a big problem for you?

:shrug:
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Yes, because we question them for different reasons.
I question Stork because he is alleged by Ma'ariv (a respectable news source) to have said things separate from his political views that call into question his ability to separate truth from his ideology. Assuming he actually said things that question his respect for academic neutrality and the truth, then that is problematic whether he's conservative or progressive. You question the truth of the article simply because it's reprinted by a conservative. That's intellectually dishonest. Show me something that shows that Ma'ariv got it wrong, and I would withdraw my questioning of Stork.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Let's put things in perspective.
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 03:17 PM by subsuelo
We progressives are well aware of the battle the Right has been fighting regarding healthcare reform. The battle has been extremely dishonest; more about slogans and fear-mongering than about getting to the truth.

Right-wing "news" sources are out there "quoting" Obama on Healthcare issues, for example. -- They are completely distorting and basically lying to the American public to fit their agenda.

Similar situation here. Finding selective quotes and out of context snippets, piecing it all together into an article which ultimately fits a right-wing agenda. In this case, the agenda is to defend Israel's war crimes in Gaza.

You say that I question the article because a conservative published it?

I say - damn straight!
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for posting this.
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 11:38 AM by aranthus
Perspective helps.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. More about Joe Stork
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 02:58 PM by azurnoir
Joe Stork “has lectured widely at universities and public forums in the US, Europe and the Middle East and is currently acting executive director of the Middle East and North Africa division of Human Rights Watch.

“He has also served as a Peace Corps volunteer in Turkey and has a Master's Degree in International Affairs/Middle East Studies from Columbia University.

“He presently serves as Chair of the Middle East Studies Association's Committee on Academic Freedom and sits on the advisory committees of the American Friends Service Committee, Foreign Policy in Focus and the Iraq Revenue Watch project of the Open Society Institute.” <1>


http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Joe_Stork

and a the paragraph above the one you quoted with link

According to Yemini, "the modern Anti-Zionism is a politically correct Antisemitism". He argued that the same way Jews were demonized, Israel is demonized, the same way the right of Jews to exist was denied, the right for Self-determination is denied from Israel, the same way Jews were presented as a menace to the world, Israel is presented as a menace to the world. In his comparative studies, he presents the huge gap between the myths against Israel, from one hand, and the real facts, from the other hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Dror_Yemini

the same shrill stuff we read here every day

the purpose here is to of course discredit Joe Stork and HRW I guess the Saudi stuff was over played
and are we to conclude that because supposedly Mr Stork is antiZionist aka per Yemeni antiSemite that he is lying? Could that same standard be applied to those that regularly bash Leftists?



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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
30. Is the complete text of the statement available online anywhere?
A cursory search suggests not, but my google-fu is weak.

I'd be intrigued to know a) if he actually did write that, and b) if he did, what was concealed by that innocuous-looking "...", and what the paragraphs before and afterwards were.

I kind of suspect is that what we are seeing here is two sentences with not merely the context but also the text between them removed to change the sense.

If he actually does think that the Munich massacre was justifiable, that's clearly a reason to double-check the evidence behind claims he makes, but one should demand a hell of a lot more than this before assuming that he did.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. You could order it
http://www.merip.org/mer/backissues.html

I think the quotes are alleged to be from MER 12.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 04:31 PM
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
35. Harry's Place chimes in...
I really am at a loss for words.

Assuming that this is all correct, hiring a very extreme Communist, with simply horrendous views about Israel/Palestine to produce a report of this sort is akin hiring a man who was formerly active in the KKK to write about black people and crime. Fundraising for this sort of work in Saudi Arabia is like taking cash for this enterprise from the old Apartheid South Africa.

This is the anatomy of a lynching.

Of course, back in the 1980s, right wing think tanks did take cash from South African sources, and did produce horrendously racist material. They didn’t worry. They were fighting the good fight, after all. All that has now changed. There is zero tolerance for racism on the mainstream right.

The same thing needs to happen on the Left. There is, presently, a general acceptance of extreme and marginal politics. The fact that an activist has supported terrorist organisations isn’t seen as a disqualification for a job. It should be, and we should be absolutely furious that the likes of Joe Stork are not simply tolerated, but promoted in mainstream human rights organisations, and tasked with writing reports on the most sensitive of subjects.

There is a value in impartial and properly researched criticism of the conduct of combatants in armed conflicts. However, by hiring a man whose ideological background is vicious, at least in the case of Israel, they have utterly disqualified themselves from performing this important task.


http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/08/17/human-rights-watch-and-the-veteran-extremist/
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #35
54. I disagree that 'there is zero tolerance for racism on the mainstream right'
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 10:24 AM by LeftishBrit
I am assuming for the present that the author means 'the British mainstream right', for which the statement would be truer than the equivalent in America. Nevertheless, whipping up hostility to immigrants was used as an electoral instrument by the Tories in 2005 (it probably backfired on them) and bigotry against immigrants and gypsies is a a staple of the right-wing tabloids.

Not all that calls itself left-wing is saintly; and I have for several years been arguing that anti-war anti-establishment progressives have to be more careful than we sometimes are to avoid ANY sort of links with anti-war anti-establishment right-wingers (and they certainly exist, and their nature is becoming clearer now that the American president is not Bush but Obama).

But there is sometimes an explicit or implicit message of 'The left is more racist than the right' or at least 'Sometimes the Right is right and the Left is wrong' (nope; sometimes *both* are wrong, but the Right is virtually never right!)

At any rate, we should oppose racism wherever it occurs.

As ragards the specifics about Joe Stork, I find it hard to comment as there are few sources quoted.


(Edited because I managed to spell 'backfired' as 'backfried'!)




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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Slight amendment to above
There are also situations where both Left and Right are *right* though one tends to notice more when they're both wrong!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
36. That article is really clumsy and full of unsupported accusations..
Edited on Tue Aug-18-09 02:56 AM by Violet_Crumble
And I don't even have to go on about what a crudsluggy mire of insanity Commentary mag is to explain why.

None of the claims made by this writer against Stork are supported by quotes or a reference to where they've read the stuff they're accusing him of, and the one quote he produces does NOT show support for terrorism. Even though he gives no hint as to where the quote was taken from so it can be read in context, it's clear from the quote that appears in the article that he was talking about the effect of Munich on morale amongst Palestinians. How on earth does anyone take someone saying what the effect of something was to be them cheering away and supporting it? I really don't understand the lack of logic behind that. And to make the whole article even more ridiculous, he then goes on after having a whinge about objectivity and neutrality to cite CAMERA and Gerald Steinberg, both of whom are very lacking in objectivity and neutrality, as support for his 'argument'.

Anyway, can anyone point me to instances of Mr Stork displaying his fanatical urge to eliminate Israel? I'm sure if he's so fanatical, he'd have plenty to say about it, as fanatics are never shy about sharing their views. See, I've got a very, very strong suspicion that this claim is just total dishonest bullshit. And if anyone does go looking, can they come up with something in the last decade? It's just peoples views change from when they're very young, and he's being accused of holding these views now, so I'd like to see some current ranting about wanting to eliminate Israel...

As for Ben-Dror Yemeni, I went looking for some of his widely translated articles, and all I could find was article after article defending any human rights violations committed by Israel. Clearly he has massive issues with any criticism of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, and I'm really not sure at all based on this article why anyone would take him seriously at all...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
43. HRW should call for an investigation into Joe Stork, otherwise it appears they're hiding something
Edited on Tue Aug-18-09 10:22 AM by shira
Clearly, HRW and their supporters just hate any criticism of HRW and would rather kill the messenger than answer to credible charges.

Why not investigate into the backgrounds of all their I/P staff, to see whether each individual is impartial and unbiased = what are they trying to cover up and whitewash now?

How about an independent investigation?

:eyes:
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
53. Crime against humanity - Ben Dror - Aug 21, 2009
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 08:39 AM by shira
Crime Against Humanity
By Ben-Dror Yemini
Maariv
August 21, 2009

On Sunday (August 16, 2009), I wrote an article entitled “Author of Report Against Israel Supported Munich Massacre” which dealt with Joe Stork, the man who presented the severe Human Rights Watch (HRW) report last week (13.8.09) which said that 12 Palestinian civilians, including children, were shot to death by IDF soldiers even though they were waving white flags.

The article received widespread coverage and many references, and apparently struck a very sensitive chord with the organization. Up until now, the organization did not respond to claims of anti-Israel bias; on occasion, it arrogantly belittled the claims. This time the organization deviated from its habit. Two days later (18.8.09), Stork sent a letter to Maariv in which he tried to deal with the claims that were made against him. The letter is presented in full below, both for reasons regarding the right of response and in order to make it clear that the letter, in effect, only strengthens the claims against the organization in general and against Stork in particular. Following is Stork’s letter in full, with remarks added in order to set the record straight.

***

“The Israeli government and Ben-Dror Yemini <'Author of Report against Israel Supported Munich Massacre'> seem to share a “shoot the messenger” approach when it comes to addressing painstakingly researched criticisms of the Israel Defense Forces’ actions in Gaza. Instead of addressing these detailed findings, they spread malicious misinformation about me and my organization, Human Rights Watch.”

Stork is right. One must deal with the message, not the messenger. But sometimes, in extreme cases, there are grounds for focusing on the messenger. Let us assume that a former Ku Klux Klan activist would issue a report against Afro-Americans. Would the report be important or the messenger? The comparison is not far off the mark in the current case. Stork opposed the recognition of Israel and was even one of the founders (!) of a group that admired the murder of the Israeli athletes in Munich. Stork also recommended that the left-wing body should withdraw if the PLO decided to negotiate with Israel. May we not doubt the objectivity of such a man?


“On August 13, Human Rights Watch released a report detailing instances in January in which Israeli soldiers killed Palestinian civilians who were waving white flags to convey their civilian status. Government spokespersons sought to dismiss the report by calling Human Rights Watch biased. But to date no critic has disputed the facts about the seven incidents in the report, in which soldiers shot and killed 11 unarmed civilians, including four children and five women.”

One of the main stories in the HRW’s report relates to Abd Rabbo family, that three of her daughters were shot in cold blood, despite the fact that they raised a white flag, and despite the fact that fighting was not in the area. The case was published extensively on many newspapers around the world. A special report of Tamar Sternhal from CAMERA found out significant contradictions in the testimonies of the family members and the neighbors. Sternhal test was much more meticulous than the HRW report, and was posted on 4.2.09 – long before the publication of the report of HRW. It wasw ignored by the HRW team. Even the “Times Magazine” published a contradicting testimony about the Abed Rabbo affair, but again, it was ignored by HRW.

And indeed, it is becoming clear that HRW carried out negligent and non-serious work. All of the incidents appearing in the report were known to the IDF. The report itself did not add anything. Moreover, the claim that, “no critic has disputed the facts about the seven incidents,” is a total lie. On the contrary, regarding five of the seven incidents, it was decided to open Military Police investigations, meaning that the IDF is carrying out a serious inquiry. If there are discrepancies – they are being thoroughly examined.

HRW adopts the opposite method. Videos have been published of Hamas personnel exploiting civilians and hiding behind white flags. These were even published on You Tube.

Is there even one word – one! – about this in the HRW report? Of course not.

In the same video, it should be pointed out, the terrorist hides in a house from which civilians are waiving white flags. The terrorist was apprehended. The civilians were not hurt. It is no coincidence that the film’s findings were not refuted in the HRW report because when the target is painted in advance – the delegitimization of Israel – the facts will not confuse Stork and his people. While photographic testimony that refutes the findings of the report receives no comment, the testimony of Palestinians living in the shadow of Hamas’s reign of terror receive top billing. Is this testimony serious? NGO Monitor responded to this and refuted HRW ’s claims. But Stork, as is his custom, takes no notice.

Many claims have been made against Israel. Israel did not ignore them. On the contrary, many of these claims were refuted in detail, in a 163-page Foreign Ministry report that was issued on 29.7.09. The HRW report, which was issued two weeks later (13.8.09), ignores most of them, just as the video was ignored because this is what HRW does. Stork is not even interested in checking; he wants delegitimization.

“Now, again instead of addressing our research, Mr. Yemini has launched a personal attack on me, which the Israeli government has dutifully translated and distributed. The quotes he attributes to me are more than 30 years old. Most of them I do not recognize, and they are contrary to the views I have expounded for decades now. For instance, selective excerpts about the Munich massacre come from an unsigned editorial that appeared 37 years ago where at the time I was one of seven volunteers that produced the publication. All my work since then shows that I would never support such an attack. For nearly 40 years, I have been documenting, writing, and speaking out on injustices by virtually all of the governments and many non-state armed groups in the Middle East. This work is readily available – including at Middle East Report magazine, which I edited through 1995, and at Human Rights Watch since then – but Mr. Yemini did not include these many statements, undoubtedly because they did not support his claims. Had he looked at the hundreds of statements, articles and reports I’ve written since the 1970s, he would have found exposés of Saddam Hussein’s murderous regime and my report for Human Rights Watch on war crimes by Palestinian suicide bombers. I have dedicated much of my adult life to the protection of human rights for all and to fighting the idea that civilians can be attacked for political reasons. Ma’ariv and Mr. Yemini owe me an apology.”

Indeed, it is clear that Stork does not deny even one of the claims that I raised. He simply claims that there are his remarks from many years ago. Has Stork disavowed his very problematic past with the Middle East Research and Information Project (MERIP)? Indeed, in an article he wrote in 1993 on US-Israel relations, Stork expresses very similar positions to those he expressed in his MERIP days. Moreover, many footnotes in the same article direct the reader to remarks written in MERIP years before. This means that not only has there been no turning point but a reiteration and continuation of the past. And it should be clear that Stork was for the Israelis just as the KKK activist would be for the Afro-Americans.

Let us continue. Stork claims that HRW published condemnations of Saddam Hussein and Palestinian suicide terrorists. This is the case, there indeed were additional reports. But these reports do not pass the proportionality test. Among countless human rights violations around the world in which Israel has a marginal and small place, HRW sees fit to issue countless reports precisely on Israel, a disproportionality that indicates a pre-selected goal and Stork’s special logic. Even when HRW issues a condemnation of a Palestinian action, Stork adds clarifications of his own : “Most of the security officers have been in Israeli jails.” Yes, the Stork of the past is no different from the Stork of today.

Stork’s headline-grabber has to do with the equivocal support issued by MERIP in the wake of the Munich massacre: I was “one of seven volunteers,” he tries to claim. Not exactly. Stork was one of MERIP’s founders and the chief editor of the journal which published a statement in support of the massacre. It is a pity that Stork does not read his own CV as it appears on HRW’s official website. The determination that the action was “an important boost in morale” for the Palestinians is part of the sequence of other remarks, including opposition to recognizing Israel, encouraging Arab countries to struggle against Israel, etc.

* * *

I believe that today, Stork would not issue a statement in support of massacring athletes. But Stork has merely gone from the highest rung on the anti-Zionist ladder to the next one lower down. But he is still on the same scale. He was and remains in the ranks of the anti-Israel Left. NGO Monitor and Prof. Gerald Steinberg will soon publish a book that analyzes a decade’s worth of HRW publications and the people behind them, including Stork himself. But Stork is above criticism. It is possible to assume that he did not bother to study NGO Monitor’s detailed response to the HRW report. This allows Stork to claim that there were no responses. This is what he does. When Steinberg previously issued a biting and substantive criticism, Stork arrogantly responded that he is not at all interested in criticism against him.

Israel, in contrast to Stork, takes notice of the criticism against it. It checks itself. Not all criticism of Israel deserves to be dismissed. Israel also makes mistakes. But Stork is a special personality. He is both radically anti-Israeli and unwilling to be criticized. Is it possible to accept the “criticism” of such a man?

* * *

Stork is not alone. When he began to work at HRW, he had no special expertise in the field. His only talent was a series of articles that were exceptionally hostile to Israel. That is not surprising. The Director of the Middle East Department, Sarah Leah Whitson, arrived at HRW after having been in a pro-Arab body. This is legitimate. Is there a chance that someone from the Anti-Defamation League would be accepted to HRW?

Global human rights are in a predicament. The UN Human Rights Council has turned into the Dark Regimes Rights Council. Saudi Arabia, Iran and Libya have an automatic majority. Non-governmental organizations, such as HRW, were supposed to stand against such bodies. But in reality a sad thing happened, Whitson flew to Saudi Arabia recently to raise funds for HRW. And they don’t even understand that they have a problem. This is how non-governmental bodies have transformed antagonism towards Israel to the main issue. They are biased to the extreme. They place Israel in the same category as Sudan, and publish weak protests on the suicide and rocket industries, just to discharge a perfunctory obligation.

Israel is contending with the Hamas regime, the official covenant of which is the closest thing to Nazi ideology. This is a group that calls for the elimination of the State of Israel, the malicious murder of Israeli citizens, gratuitous Jew-hatred, and many of its speakers talk candidly about taking over the West. How exactly is a democratic country supposed to confront such an entity, indoctrinated in the ideology of hatred, murder and incitement? Why is Europe permitted to fight the Taliban – which threatens Germany or Spain much less – with much harsher measures, but Israel is prohibited from fighting a body like Hamas?

It is permitted to criticize Israel. But HRW has lost the moral right to do so. He who in the past has called for the elimination of Israel; he who supports, directly or indirectly, the boycott of Israel, cannot become an objective critic. There is a need for an international struggle for human rights. But bodies such as HRW hurt this important struggle. They become the prop of the world’s darkest regimes. Instead of saying unequivocally that such a regime, such an ideology, such an element – has no right to exist, the HRW is waging a struggle that is not a criticism of Israel, but rather wild slander against Israel. True, there is marginal criticism against Hamas. But criticism of Israel is the main point. And therefore, for the sake of returning human rights to its proper standing, it is time for HRW to cleanse its ranks.

The very existence of a group like Hamas is a crime against humanity. Stork and HRW find it difficult to understand this. On the contrary, in their crude attack, in their delegitimization of Israel, they are parties to this crime.

Ben-Dror Yemini is a senior editorialist in Maariv ( bdyemini@gmail.com )
http://www.cicweb.ca/scene/2009/08/crime-against-humanity-ben-dror-yemini-on-joe-stock-of-human-rights-watch/
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
56. HRW's Military Analyst is Nazi obsessive
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/09/08/human-rights-watchs-military-analyst-is-nazi-obsessive/

OK, this one is a little disturbing.

A conservative blogger, Omri Ceren, believes that Human Rights’ Watch military researcher, Marc Garlasco, is a Nazi paraphernalia junkie.

There are two Marc Garlascos on the Internet. One is a top human rights investigator who, having joined Human Rights Watch after several years with the Pentagon, has become known for his shrill attacks on Israel.

The other is a Marc Garlasco who’s obsessed with the color and pageantry of Nazism, has published a detailed 430 page book on Nazi war paraphernalia, and participates in forums for Nazi souvenir collectors.

Both Marc Garlascos were born on September 4, 1970. Both have Ernst as their middle name. Both live in New York, NY. Both have a maternal grandfather who fought for the Nazis. I’ve put links and screenshots on all this after the jump, and you can click through for full-sized versions. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that both Marc Garlascos are the same person.

Bloggers and activists concerned about Israel have been baffled and frustrated by the first Garlasco almost since he joined HRW. On his public photography site he posts gratuitous Palestinian and Lebanese death porn in between galleries of cute Western-looking kids playing soccer (no link - keeping his kids out of it). He provides a seemingly never-ending stream of interviews to all kinds of outlets, where he spins tales about ostensible Israeli atrocities. The only problem is that many of these tales - per Soccer Dad and IsraPundit and Elder of Ziyon and NGO Monitor and CAMERA and LGF - are biased and inaccurate. That doesn’t stop Garlasco from putting them into the kind of HRW reports that make their way into international anti-Israel condemnations and academic anti-Israel dissertations.


There’s more, but that’s the gist of it.
There are many people who are fixated with Nazidom who are not politically Nazis. They are fascinated by the forbidden. They like the style. They are drawn to that which they hate.

Then, there are the David Irvings of this world.

In any event Nazi memorabilia collectors are… an odd bunch. The odd helmet, a bullet, a fragment of shell casing: perhaps. But when it becomes a lifestyle choice, something strange is going on.

Marc Garlasco has been involved in producing a number of HRW reports, including the investigation into the use of white phosphorous, the investigation into the deaths during shelling on Gaza Beach, and a series of other investigations into Israeli military conduct.
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