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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 01:51 PM
Original message
Quiet slicing of West Bank makes abstract prayers for peace obscene
On 2 August 2009, after cordoning off part of the Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah in east Jerusalem, Israeli police evicted two Palestinian families (more than 50 people) from their homes; Jewish settlers immediately moved into the emptied houses. Although Israeli police cited a ruling by the country's supreme court, the evicted Arab families had been living there for more than 50 years. The event – which, rather exceptionally, did attract the attention of the world media – is part of a much larger and mostly ignored ongoing process.

Five months earlier, on 1 March, it had been reported that the Israeli government had drafted plans to build more than 70,000 new homes in Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank; if implemented, the plans could increase the number of settlers in the Palestinian territories by about 300,000 Such a move would not only severely undermine the chances of a viable Palestinian state, but also hamper the everyday life of Palestinians.

A government spokesman dismissed the report, arguing that the plans were of limited relevance – the construction of homes in the settlements required the approval of the defence minister and the prime minister. However, 15,000 have already been fully approved, and 20,000 of the proposed housing units lie in settlements that Israel cannot expect to retain in any future peace deal with the Palestinians.

The conclusion is obvious: while paying lip-service to the two-state solution, Israel is busy creating a situation on the ground that will render such a solution impossible.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/18/west-bank-israel-settlers-palestinians">Guardian - read more
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, dear. How shocking.
What part of THESE PEOPLE REALLY HATE EACH OTHER is mysterious to you?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. wait - how does this further slice into the W.Bank? what am I missing here?
Edited on Tue Aug-18-09 03:26 PM by shira
AFAIK, settler growth within settlements since the mid 90's has grown without any NEW settlement construction. How does this hurt the chances of peace more?

As for Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem, the Arab families there weren't paying their rent for more than a decade as tenants in buildings that Jews owned. Those who actually pay rent as tenants are still living in East Jerusalem. What makes the Jews who now live in those apartments, while paying rent, settlers?

Only serious replies please.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Clever.
Not.



For those interested in the truth about settlement growth and expansion in the West Bank, I recommend Peace Now's reports:

http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=62&docid=3550&pos=3


As for the story of the evicted families, it's rather inhumane to evict entire families over delinquent rent payment, but I suppose those families should have been more careful, knowing the soulless vultures were hungry.

Regarding the ownership issue, it's interesting to me how Jewish families are quickly granted a right of Return (assuming the validity of the claim), yet *all* Palestinians cleansed from their homes are denied their Right of Return!

This is Apartheid in action, folks. We're watching it right before our very eyes.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. unresponsive
Settler growth is not the same as settlement expansion outside of the areas claimed as of the mid 90's. Why do you keep posting articles and responses claiming that more land is being 'stolen', a 2-state solution is no longer possible, etc... when new settlement expansion stopped in the mid 90's?

Are you against only Jewish landlords evicting their tenants or only against it when the tenants are Arabs? What gives?

Also - do you believe millions of Palestinian refugees should be allowed to go and live in Israel?
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Since you didn't read the article I recommended
Edited on Wed Aug-19-09 03:11 PM by subsuelo
there's no point making an attempt at informed discussion

I'm opposed to inhumane treatment of anyone - why do *you* continue insinuating that my comments are only directed towards Jews? That's complete nonsense!

I support international law, which recognizes Palestinian Right of Return. Usually I would be inclined to post an article or reference, however you've proven that to be a waste of time
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Peacenow thinks Fatah is a peaceful org, so you'll have to excuse me for not taking all their claims
seriously.

The fact is that no new settlements have been constructed since the mid 90's and Olmert's 100% offer to Abbas in 2008 proves your silly claim false regarding the death of the 2-state solution.

It's never a waste of time asking folks like yourself to clearly explain your views. If you all were as confident in your views as you portend to be, believing they represent true progressive values, peace, and justice, you wouldn't be as reluctant as you are to answer simple questions.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. When you're done regurgitating the ridiculous claims you found in rightwing gossip magazines
let me know

Here is another source of information for anyone interested in the facts
http://www.fmep.org/settlement_info/

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. rightwing mags? if you think the usual Fatah propaganda you spew is progressive then....
Edited on Wed Aug-19-09 09:08 PM by shira
...it's no wonder you think anything that counters the Fatah or Saudi line on I/P is "rightwing".
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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. The settlements boundries are about 4-5% of the WB.
The construction is within these boundries and no new land has been taken. About 90% of the settlers live next to the Green line. The claim that a 2 state solution is impossible now is simply false
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. "The claim that a 2 state solution is impossible now is simply false"
Edited on Thu Aug-20-09 12:14 AM by subsuelo
Then what's stopping it from happening?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Last time you made this claim in July, you said it was only 2%
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=281109&mesg_id=281219

As I told you back then, it's misleading to not take into account the roads, open areas, land taken in the building of the separation wall, and land around the settlements which comes to a lot more than what you claim, and which makes the lives of Palestinians in the West Bank difficult. B'Tselem gives an estimate of around 50% of the West Bank being under Israeli control:

'Israel has used a complex legal and bureaucratic mechanism to take control of more than fifty percent of the land in the West Bank. This land was used mainly to establish settlements and to create reserves of land for the future expansion of the settlements.'

http://www.btselem.org/english/Settlements/Land_Takeover.asp

Here's a map from 2006 showing closed and restricted areas for Palestinians:





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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. There will never be "Palestinian Right of Return"
Israelis are not giving up their country to another Muslim theocracy.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. If you're comfortable flouting international law and disregarding human rights
then I guess I can see that point of view :shrug:

(Who said anything about "Muslim theocracy" btw?)
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. No other refugee group in history has received so much money
but kept in such horrible conditions for so long.

No other refugee group has been promised "Right of Return" because all other refugee groups move on and make new lives.

The Palestinians should read a page from history, and realize that they could waste 60 more years waiting for something that isn't going to happen, or to try to make the best of the situation that they could have.

And we know that Gaza has turned into a Muslim Theocracy, and Hamas would like the same thing in the WB.

It isn't much of a stretch to think that Israel, with "Right of Return" could turn into another Muslim Theocracy, and there are enough of those repressive regimes already.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. When Israel stops creating those horrible conditions, we all can move along
Amazing how Israel can steal Palestinian land and natural resources, force them into reservation camps, periodically bomb their neighborhoods to pieces, along with collective punishment and other various war crimes -- yet we're expected to ask Palestinians to just move on and make new lives?

No, what needs to happen is the United States needs to stop funding all of Israel's crimes against humanity (assuming that would cause it to stop). Then we can all move along.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. How much money does Israel recieve
Edited on Wed Aug-19-09 10:15 PM by azurnoir
from the US each and every year? don't hear you whining about that now do we? of course that's different right?

What the Palestinians recieve is a drop in the bucket in comparison but you would begrudge even that
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. And you'll never understand what the Right of Return is...
But credit to you for being consistant and managing to keep every post of yrs focused on how bad Muslims are.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
18. gotta love the NAZI allusions in this article
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 08:17 AM by shira
"Palestinians often use the problematic cliche of the Gaza strip as "the greatest concentration camp in the world". However, in the past year, this designation has come dangerously close to truth. This is the fundamental reality that makes all abstract "prayers for peace" obscene and hypocritical. The state of Israel is clearly engaged in a slow, invisible process, ignored by the media; one day, the world will awake and discover that there is no more Palestinian West Bank, that the land is Palestinian-free, and that we must accept the fact. The map of the Palestinian West Bank already looks like a fragmented archipelago."

So in addition to the Swedish paper's claims of organ stealing, we have this trash in the same week? And then there's last week's satan worshipping Jews in Holland's largest daily paper:

Dutch journalist: Flu pandemics are Jewish conspiracy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4009388

Israel, the organ stealing Nazi state.

Jews who are satan worshippers conspiring to spread swine flu.

Classy. :puke:

And this is responsible journalism?

No, it's freedom of expression and just criticism of Israel or Jews!

I wonder why Israel is pushing the issue with Sweden? Hmmm.

:eyes:

I'm certain anti-racist humanitarians worldwide will loudly and unequivocally condemn all this - anytime now.
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