Europe apologises to Israel for poll

I really don't know why would he have to apologize. This are the opinions of the EU citizens and nothing will change that. I do agree that there should have been more options and that no survey is perfect, but the opinion of the people still counts. Maybe it has to do with the policy of people like Sharon and the dislike among Europeans. Sorry if that offends you but I don't remember the same when Rabin or Peres was in power. So there must be something else then plain anti-semitism...

But what I think this does show is a pattern used by the Sharon government. Any time anything is said critical of Sharon, he accuses the person or group of anti-Semitism.

perhaps the acknowledgement of bias was a good start. Untill I find the demographics of those polled, how it was actually worderd, and a better representative number I'll just report what I find in the newspapers.

n/t

Yes, that's a good start. However, it remains an open question how much the poll reflects bias.

I believe that some bias is reflected here. Israel got more responses than the US to the question: Which of these nations are a threat to peace? That an anti-Semite would name Israel and not care about the facts or the circumstances may be a possible explanation of the data.

However, that does not mean that all who named Israel are anti-Semitic. In addition to having long faced a difficult situation in terms of her realtionship with her neighbors, Israel possesses nuclear weapons and her leader is a rightwing kook who seeks to expand Israel's borders against the wishes of a native population that is ready to defend its own territory. A perfectly rational person, free of anti-Semitism or even himself a Jew, could name Israel as a threat and give a reasonable justification for his conclusions.

I agree Sharon makes for a threat to peace - but this poll result was the same (on a country by country basis) - back when Oslo was looking like it would lead to peace.

It simply reflects the EU's large percentage of the population that is ready to dump on the jew at the drop of a hat.

Not that the blame others thoughts in the EU are limited to Jews - I was taught about 40 tribes I was to not trust/fear/hate/watch out for/ suspect a spin on truth from.

It is just that in much of the EU, the Jew is at the top of the list.

Although in the Mountains of Greece I found many who used the comment that the "low land Greek is worst than any Jew" to explain why they chose to trust businesses run by Jews over "low-land Greek" businesses. I always found that curious!

But then people are hard to understand - which makes them fun to watch! Indeed life is fun if you chose to let it be! - or so I am told!

Sorry - I think that was the meds speaking.

:-)

That's a very generalized view you have about Europeans and it doesn't have much to do with what the majority actually thinks and feels. How can I put it more simple: Disagreeing with Sharon and his policy doesn't mean hating Israelis or Jews in general. Just like disagreeing with Milosevic didn't mean that one hated Serbs. Can't you comprehend that? :shrug:

How do you know that centuries of hatred, bias, abuse and murder and all of the structures that allowed them (religion, government, etc.) have NOT contributed to this wild bias?

Maybe by knowing people, talking to them, living in Europe. I don't know them all (that is impossible) and neither do you, but then you couldn't make such generalized claims. Or do you seriously beelive that every newborn European is tought hating Jews by his parents? Come on Muddle, I didn't think we would be going this way...

Israel ranked first on this poll with 59%. How many people in a survey sample need to be anti-Semitic to skew that number substantially?

I am NOT saying all Europeans are anti-Semitic, but it has been part and parcel to much of Europe for a long damn time. Beliefs die hard.

Excuse me Muddle, but you are misreading the poll! 59% didn't say that they hate Israel or Israelis, but that Israel under Sharon is among those that pose a threat to peace on the first place. Personally I don't believe that Israel is a threat to world peace, they are one of the problems (the policy) in the Middle East and I do understand why so many have responded so. That doesn't mean it is factualy so, but it is a big signal of a strong disagreement (condemnation) with Israel's policy. Just as the fact that USA is right behind. The poll should have been broader (with more options) and in that regard I do consider it weak. But the message it gave is still valid. Like it or not..

Yes, 59% consider Israel a threat to world peace. The result should be that 100% should consider Arab hatred of Jews and unwillingness to accept them as neighbors as a threat.

The message it gave is that Israel, the homeland to those pesky Jews, is more of a threat to peace than any nation on earth. Sure, and there's NO anti-Semitism causing that belief...

Care to buy a bridge?

Please! That wasn't what the poll asked them! That would have to be a separate question. I give up. You obviously think this is about anti-semitism and even if those same people said it wasn't about it you would still fail to believe them. This is one of the problems that people like you have. You are so sure about something, always seeing the hatred but failing to see anything more to it. It's as simple as that for you and nothing will change your mind. So be it...

I found nothing in the poll about buying a bridge either.

I am saying it is bound to impact the results, you are saying it can't. I think history is on my side on this one.

"A cool look at a hot poll: Why the outrage?"

I posted a link to the full poll results with demographics and the questions.

There was no need for an apology. It's clear from the results that by "Israel" respondants meant the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

What's my reason for saying this? Iraq was also listed as a threat by a majority of EU citizens; yet Iraq has no army and no sovereignty under which it could brandish any kind of threat to world peace. Hence--I believe--"Iraq" was cited because the US/UK occupation and the international tension over the country represent a threat to world peace. Nothing to do with the current Iraqi "leadership," its capacity to inflict harm, or its "policies."

now that's a new twist. I am, however, sure that they will also apologize to the Iraqis for even including them on the list, since they were already disarmed when the US invaded.

When you have WMD, a man with such past (and present policy) as Sharon as PM, that many people will regard you as a threat is hardly surprising...

It takes into account the inherent anti-Semitism of Europe where for hundreds or thousands of years they have killed/abused Jews almost for sport.

for the following reason: Immediately after WWII, you could have done such a survey and found that there was overwhelming supprt for the victims of the holocaust, no argument (never mind the fact that there were many other groups that had high representation among the camp populations). For the Europeans to be clearly 'aware' of the threat represented by Israel, speaks volumes about how the percpetions have been fostered by contemporary social and political movement. Israel has ignored any number of UN resolutions, seemingly with impunity, and moreover, is armed to the teeth. I guess one must ask when is enough, enough? When intellectual discourse can be brought to a screeching halt with the simle application of the term 'anti-semitic', there is a major problem.

for the victims of the Shoah

really?

So, that's why the UN vote was so close on even granting a State, huh?

interesting

But they got it and have it. Which couldn't be said for the Palestinians that are still occupied and more illegal settlements are built on their land..

of the 2-state solution approved of by the Israelis and rejected by the Arabs. A great war followed...

n/t

Oh please Muddle you can do better then that. Hundreds of thousand of years? Throughout history all kinds of groups were killed murdered (Muslims, Christians, Jews) Don't give me the "only one victim" mentality throughout history BS...

By your logic almost all of the world is anti-semitic and only the USA, Micronesia and Marshal Islands are safe for Jews. Just because they aren't quiet and applauding Sharon, Bush and the likes.. Give me a break

I said "hundreds OR thousands." No biggie. Back to you.

Are you saying that all the European countries killed Jews for sport? If so, could you please list some examples of when the Jews were killed for sport in say...Ireland.

LOL.

No, not ALL countries in Europe killed Jews for sport or out of habit or abused them, etc. at all times. But it was regular enough and organized enough from Inquisition to pogrom to Holocaust and everything in between.

Even with the OR this is still ridiculous. As though others weren't killed throughtout history. Your point?

None so consistently, none so systematically as the Jews of Europe.

Even if that was true, I fail to see what this has to do with the present situation and generation of people. It's not like Israelis are driven from their homes and their houses demolished, but Palestinians being the ones on the receiving end being driven from their land and homes. So much for the comparisons..

Big surprise, in a group of cultures that has rarely had any tolerance for Judaism or Jews and has a history of abusing and murdering them wholesale, wow they don't like Israel, the homeland for Jews.

The Palestinians, with the help from their massively numerous Arab and Muslim brothers, have done their fair share of destruction and murder and then some.

So you think all of Europe is anti-semitic and the rest of the world that critisizes Sharon and his policy as well? Like Bush said, either you're with us or against us, right?.

Never mind people like Uri Avnery, Amira Hass, Gush Shalom and others in Israel. There is no way that most of it would actually be criticism and not hatred in your mind? If so then I am sorry for you. But it's a hell of a lot more complex world around you then the black/white picture you would want to see... Sorry

I think Europe has a wildly powerful history of anti-Semtism that could easily impact this poll. Is all of Europe anti-Semitic? That's silly. Is a lot of it? Sure looks that way.

...anti-Semitism in Europe is anti-Arab the vast majority of time. For instance, a MAJORITY of Germans would not want to live next to an Arab neigbhor; the comparable number for Jews was 20-25% I believe. This poll is in "The Clash of Civilizations." Using your reasoning Iraq, Syria, and Iran(since the typical person considers it Arab) would have been heading the list.

However, the question was about whether or not a nation posed a threat to WORLD peace. Obviously, a non-state that is concerned with only Israel is not much of a threat to Belgium or Peru.

No one springs forth from the womb an anti-semite.

In cultures that have hundreds or thousands of years of anti-Semitism as part of their institutional knowledge.

in many instances, but "inherent" is just over the top.

My take is everyone involved could benefit from some serious self-examination.

Then we could talk about inherent anti-Arabism anti-Muslim feelings if we follow your logic. There seems to be a lot of it as well. One could say that the other side is not at least any less immune to it, sincerely

Jews have hung onto our culture through every eventuality thus far.

I never had ANY anti-Arab (or anti-Islamic) feelings until it became evident to me what so many Arabs were trying to do to my people.

Jews have indeed been singled out throughout history...and, no, I do not wish nor will I get into a debate as to why. I know all the horrible 'stock' cliches and I will not dignify them with responses. Jews are 2, yes 2, stereotypes in one. We are either Shylocks or Marxists. Now, you have added murdering Israelis as well.



NEVER AGAIN.

So now you have anti-arab feelings?

Were you ever a hall monitor in school?

You didn't mention the terrorist thing, you only said Arab. I had good reasons to question you...

So you didn't dislike Arab terrorists when they were blowing up "your people" until you realized their final goal? So you heard about Hamas killing a bunch of "your people" and you didn't get angry at them in the past?

It's not nice to distort people's words.

I replied to another poster a clarification stating that I did not have anti-Arab feelings; simply anti-Arab terrorist feelings. The genesis of those anti-Arab terrorist feelings have nothing to do with your statement, ie "So you heard about Hamas killing a bunch of "your people" and you didn't get angry at them in the past?"

Please try to keep up with what has been posted. Thank you.

"I never had ANY anti-Arab (or anti-Islamic) feelings until it became evident to me what so many Arabs were trying to do to my people."

If there were "so many Arabs" trying to do as you imply, Israel would be gone. While a sizable majority may hold disdain, disgust or even hatred in they're hearts, they do not act on those feelings, just as the vast majority of Israelis that hold similar feelings for Arabs don't act on those base emotions.

The brush you paint with is much too broad and the end result is to increase the heat without shedding any light.

The Arab world has tried to end Israel on several occasions, they have simply been beaten -- badly.

You're the greatest! :toast:

The "Arab World" consists of every living Arab from cradle to grave at any given time (1967, 1973, etc). That includes political leadership, upper class, middle class, lower class, multiple religious sects, and the fundy radicals. Men, women, children, babies, grandmothers, grandfathers, etc, etc.

At no time has this multitude risen up, as your rhetoric suggests, to "end Israel". If they did, Israel would be gone tomorrow.

Much like the Western world, the Arab world expresses its political will through its governments. Those leaderships have committed money, military, diplomacy, terror and trade to defeat Israel.

So, while the Arab world has not walked, en masse to Israel to kill every Jew in sight, it has, through its governments, signed on to a 55-year war that has failed repeatedly.

As for Israel's destruction, it won't happen without the Arab world ceasing to exist as well.

The "Arab world" expresses its political will through unelected governments?

However, I don't know that Israel would in fact be gone...at least, not without the Arabs going along for the ride.

I did pain with a broad brush, however, I believe our dialogue does shed some light...

:-)

I admire you. Whoe else could lay this blaim on the most documented culture on this planet? Assuming that the tribes of Juda and Israel indeed occupied the lands of Palestine for a total of 87 years - who would live to tell the story? Could it begin with the Romans, a western European people?

Specifying anti-Semitism as an extraordinary part of discimination is like saying that that the slaying in Cambodia by Pol Pot is a peak of acts of violence. Yes, the killing fields were indeed soaked in blood and yes, several million Jews dies under brutal circumstances but Stalin killed 20 million opponents and Rwanda took 500,000 lives and if you take the whole of the world population over the centuries into consideration - None of this is exceptional.

There is always a segment of humanity that gives way to its most inferior impulses and dismiss it or not - today it is Israel. After the literal extinction of the Palestinians it will be Sudan or Eastern Europe where the pressure cooker is still on or any other place in the world you may wish to pick.

The facts, here and now, are that:

a.) The terminology of anti-Israeli politics is intentionally misconstrued with the emotionally powerful word 'anti-Semitism'.

b.) Israel is one of the prime perpetrators of crimes against the humanity supported by the western world.

c.) We, as Western bystanders (didn't check where you reside) are in effect colluding in a major crime.

d.) Ariel Sharon, in an Interview with Shimon Peres, stated that he had America in the back pocket - which insinuates to me that Israel is ruling the world by proxy. Mind the difference of 'Israel' vs. 'Jews' - a rhetorical mistake made by the Malaysian official. But then George Bush claims to be on a mission from god.

I for one prefer to keep my conscience clear.

From all your posts I have come to see your uneasiness in this whole matter. Your arguments seem more like a bumper-sticker and in reality you do know what is going on. Defending the indefensible makes you a partner in crime and when it comes down to it you are a responsible individual. Your recent attempts at structuring the issues of the conflict didn't go very far (which was to be expected given a certain chaos here) but it indicated to me that you sicnerely tried to understand.

Being of dual European/American citizenship I lay claim that there is hardly any country in the world that is more sympathetic to Israel. If this very country has an issue with Israel's politics - it runs deep.

but there is "insitutionalized" racism and pejudice. Words, sentneces, most people would say "but it's only a phrase, doesn't mean anything." yes, it does; it embellishes a stereotype and from that a dislike and from that .......

Try doing a little research into Napolean, who declared France the Jewish homeland (after he was unable to conquer Palestine). And check into how many Jews from as far away as Russia emigrated there as a result.

Killing Jews for sport?!? That remark's even worse than the French bashing pushed by the neo-cons and the Freepers!

By the way, Muddle, who was America's first Jewish head of state?

Can you name this man?



He was France's head of state in 1936. And not the only Jew to hold that post.

Can you name the first president of the European Parliament in 1979?
Two hints: It was a woman. And she is a survivor of Auschwitz.

Bonus question: How many Jews have been Speaker of the US House of Representatives?

When will we see a Muslim or Arab PM or president in Europe? They've had Jewish ones and since they hate Jews more than Arabs and Muslims surely there will be Muslim PM's and presidents soon. Right Muddle?

Paschall, why try to judge European's by the content of their character when you can just stereotype most of them as anti-Semites due to your prejudices?

I am just so amazed that you don't realise what you have said. Disraeli was not a Jew, his family had converted, but some still say "that Jewish PM" does this not tell you something?

Why aren't they apologizing to the other countries that ranked high on the list? After all, there wasn't a big gap between #1 Israel and #5 Afghanistan. Why is an economic superpower bending over backwards for a little country that it allegedly hates?