'Protecting' Jewish girls from Arabs

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1253198149221&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull



More at link.

The world is coming to an end!

Seriously, WTF? This is the same as the "concern" over interracial relationships here is the 60's and 70's. Not until all humans are seen as equal, and the religion is taken out of the factor, will we finally have some peace in this world.

... and the other set in the 13th.

The human comedy rolls on.

and it isn't new.

The fact that Arabs and Jews dating one another has "become the norm" in this part of Jerusalem is a pretty good testament to the lack of racist attitudes that exist among many young Israelis.

Thats why religion has tried to control it from the beginning.

Settlers and the right wing, not so much. Now guess who is in power.

and of the RW of both sides than many other things. It's not yet a popular view on either side, and I tend to self-censor my views on the subject even on this board, but since it's come up, yes, I think it's a hopeful sign. I am not surprised that the religious and political conservatives are unhappy with it.

There is a Jewish version of the Taliban here, and they will never quit.

for their patrols.

The fact that Arabs and Jews dating one another has "become the norm" in this part of Jerusalem is a pretty good testament to the lack of racist attitudes that exist among many young Palestinians. ???

That accusation was leveled against Jews in the post to which I responded.

You might want to think about the fact that you respond when Jews are accused of any failing but rarely uf at all when Palestinians or Muslims are falsely attacked. Or maybe not.

I have observed that when Palestinians or Muslims are falsely attacked there are almost always a pretty good number of posters who respond fairly quickly.

The same is generally true for similar attacks against Jews or Israelis.

I think we, as collective members of this community, are pretty good at calling out any unfair attacks against Jews or Muslims.

called out.

I have at times seen some regrettable links on DU to RW or bigoted sites; but I think they usually do get pointed out and deleted.

that appeared in the US when stories of ni**ers f'ing the gullible white girls were widely disseminated and both laws-against and murders, sometimes of of whole populations, were generally supported. Laws most places, lynchings in many, and mass killings were less frequent that the killings of selected offenders.

Do you see this article, and the fear/hatred it encourages, as a part of a wider trend within Israeli society? Are they turning into a culture even more completely based on a supremacist ideology?

The implication that they are (and that they are becoming "more completely" one) is itself a potentially anti-semitic "observation" in my view.

Israel has its right-wing extremists and racists like every other country in the world.

I never said "Jews in Israel are based on a supremacist ideology" as your reply implies. Some fraction has always been, yes. You can't deny that. But there was no "all are" even implied in my post. There were as many belief systems among the founders as there were parties and factions and sub-factions and individuals. My view is that that tendency is getting more powerful and dominant.

You may argue that "no, the rightist haters are becoming weaker" and provide me with evidence, but misrepresenting what I said is not evidence that what I said was inaccurate. And falling back on the "you're an anti-semite" crap is just ultra-lame.

My view is that that tendency is getting more powerful and dominant.

i promise not to drink any coffee, when you explain just exactly where you getting your info from...and i'm sure its based on knowledge of both israeli politics, the system as well as the culture....riiiiiight?

(and please don't write its based on Netanyhos election.......it would only go to show your lack of knowledge of your part on the workings of the israeli culture.....)

Who is the "they" that you are talking about in that question? Is it not Jews in Israel? It certainly cannot refer to all Israelis since the OP is about Jewish Israelis perceptions of Arab Israelis.

I am not "falling back" on any "you're an anti-semite" crap. I read a statement that suggested that Jews in Israel were already based on a supremacist ideology and were becoming moreso - that to me appears to contain an untrue and negative stereotype about Jews in Israel and thus I made the comment that I did.

As you have since clarified to some extent what you meant in your earlier post, then I would argue that you are simply incorrect in your view/perception of what is going on in Israel.

I think that the article is indicating a trend *toward* intercultural mixing and dating (at one time extremely rare) which of course conservatives and frank racists on both sides are resisting. But such resistance never succeeds forever.

I think that the article is reporting fear and hatred (but also reporting the opposite) - not encouraging it. In any case, I do not think that Israel has a culture 'based on a supremacist ideology' - any more than anyone else does. No point is gained by stereotyping or demonizing entire cultures - this sounds a bit like the equally prejudiced accusations on the other side that Palestinians have 'a culture of death', etc.

One that is very dangerous. I was not stereotyping or describing a whole culture, as the black-and-whiters assert. I think all rightist trends toward increased bigotry and divisiveness and brutality are destructive and need to be resisted and condemned, not excused or justified. That puts me at odds with some who post here.

I think the fact that the article expressed worry about Jewish girls doing it with Arab men, rather than giving the the reverse situation equal prominence, was either deliberately reinforcing bigotry, or, like Oberliner's post, unwittingly expressing, and thus fostering it.

My view. Racists/supremacists in the US have always been willing to "do" the females of the oppressed, while becoming murderously enraged at the reverse pairings. I see that same dynamic being exposed in the way this article was written.

There was absolutely zero bigotry expressed in my post, wittingly or unwittingly.

I think you maybe ought to examine the lens with which you are viewing some posts here that may have possibly led you to such a misguided conclusion.

Me, Mandela, Carter, Goldstone, the UN, UNHRC, HRC, AI, and so on. The whole planet condemns the treatment of those subjugated by a state led for decades by "former" terrorists/freedom fighters, only because the whole world is anti-Semitic.

Your bias and one-sided blindness to, or dismissal or justifying of, the the great injustices being done to the indigenous population is there for anyone to see, except for yourself and those who share the priorities. It is revealed and reflected in a value system system that excuses massacres. You regard the killing of 100 Palestinians as less odious than the killing one Israeli. I don't.

You regard the extra-legal imprisonment of hundreds and thousands of Palestinians as no big deal, but see the imprisonment of one IDF soldier as A Great Crime which justifies almost any punitive or retaliatory form of collective punishment. I don't.

You see allowing 55 truck loads a day of food and supplies to 1.5 million people as proof of the humanitarian nature and benevolence of the masters who control entry into an walled of prison camp. I see it as yet another form of collective punishment and Actually A Great Crime.

You excuse the maiming and mutilation of hundreds of Palestinians and because some of those driven into camps from the town now called Siderot are angry and fire what have effectively been noisemakers in that direction. I don't consider butchering children or adults an understandable or excusable retaliatory/defensive act. You do.

So we disagree. Not uncommon here or anywhere.

I think being aware of our biases and beliefs is helpful, but my strong bias based on my finite life experiences is to regard the lives of Jews as more valuable than Arabs, and USAns more than Africans. I admit such biases, but I also recognise them as bigotry. Killing children and babies and adult civilians is still wrong, whether done by the governments of US or Israel in the Middle East, or in some conflict in Africa, or by Buddhists against Hindus, or Hindus or Christians or Jews against Moslems, or Moslems against any of the above, regardless of how those murders are described or justified or the nature of the religious or political ideology invoked.

(edit syntax)

got it kassams and mortars are nothing more than: "what have effectively been noisemakers in that direction"

yes bombs blowing up day and night at anytime, anywhere with sirens going off day and night almost everyday for over 6 years, with people running to shelters from the bathroom, bedroom, school with a mere 15 seconds....... with no hint of it stopping...... terrorizing over 100,000 of people is to be considered........

morally acceptable terror....

(did i get that right?)........perhaps its your bias as you claim, your own bigotry......at least your version of morality is clear: i guess some people can be terrorized if it fits a political agenda.

Do you not see that that mindset REEKS with racism?

Do you not see that that way of thinking COMPLETELY dehumanizes the people of Gaza?

Hamas attacks have killed Israelis of different races and religions.

Every country puts the defense of its citizens as its number one priority. Israel is not at all unique in this regard.

but ultimately it will lead to more bloodshed.... on both sides.

I shudder to think of the hatred that is festering behind the barbed wire of Gaza's open air prison.

There must be a political solution to this problem.

Those who know better do better.

in order for Israel to be justified for invading Gaza to stop all that.

There's nothing reeking of racism about it - many in Sderot aren't Jewish.

Isn't it dehumanizing to tell the people of Sderot and the 1 million people within range of kassams (and that includes many thousands of Arabs) that they don't deserve protection from Hamas rockets...they should just get used to it and take it?

how many bomb shelters are there in sederot and the area....vs gaza?

i would venture that gaza for all its buildings and infrastructure and tunnels in the south....except for the single one that israel built beneath the gaza hospital has virtually zero. I dont remember seeing any.

Sederot since the kassams and previous has shelters every few meters,...bus stops that are kassam proof etc. that the govt built

so whereas hamas can have very very deep tunnels to egypt to import stuff, they have trouble making tunnels elsewhere?...or perhaps its not a priority with them ...the tunnels are busy actually importing new cars these days

your facts should be directed at hamas......its they re responsibility to protect the gazans......perhaps if they had built shelters, where the citizens could go for protection, they wouldnt have be exposed to the invasion- that stopped the kassams

I have great respect for all the people you've listed there and have never seen any comment from any of them that even remotely approached the ridiculous statement you made about Jews in Israel having a "supremacist ideology". I am confident that the three gentlemen you listed would repudiate such a comment and would be as critical of your remark as I have been.

Your post contains a number of false and ridiculous claims about my opinion of the various human rights organizations you've identified. I have enormous respect for Human Right Watch, Amnesty International, and the United Nations and do not believe that there is any kind of "anti-semitic" conspiracy against Israel coming from any of those groups.

It is just your comment that I found objectionable.

The idea about Jewish "supremacy" that you apparently are continuing to champion is not a perspective that I have seen forwarded by any of those human rights groups and international organizations.

Your other accusations are bizarrely unfounded to the point that I wonder where they came from. I absolutely do not value the life of an Israeli any more than that of a Palestinian (Your other ridiculous claims about my opinions are similarly completely untrue).

With respect to the conflict, I support a two-state solution with both states living side by side at peace with one another.

I support the end of violence, the end of the occupation, the end of terrorism, the end of invasions, and the beginning of reconciliation.

What you support is not entirely clear to me.

Still trying to understand who the "they" was in your post that read: "Are they turning into a culture even more completely based on a supremacist ideology?"

Who is the "they" that you are talking about in that question?

If editing was still an option I'd change "You" into "Some here." Although there are a few overt and obvious right-wingers who dwell here, I don't have any evidence that would have justified attributing their views to you. My intent was to describe my values, as they contrast with those of some in this forum. Unfortunately, your slurs and accusations against me angered me, and so I, wrongly you say, just lumped into that same group.

I retract those "You's." I was wrong. It may indeed be the case that you have defended Goldstone, AI, HRW and the rest when they were called anti-Semitic by the rightists, and I never noticed or quickly read and just forgot.

As for your question, the "they" was just a reference to the population in general, not singling out any subcategory.

The US has had the "We are Number One" and associated supremacist beliefs drilled into the population for decades and even centuries (although the "we" is understood differently in different eras and in different subgroups).

That attitude is a deadly poison, and the vileness of the crimes it enables and justifies is unlimited. That is why I called it out somewhere up thread and in other cases. Those ruling the US have been using that supremacist delusion to allow them to commit horrid crimes against the "other" within this country, across the planet and even against those within the borders against who hold that kind of belief. They, the masters, the monsters, are using that tool in ways that will turn the US into a failed state, and although they will thrive, we here will continue to suffer even more until we refuse to be manipulated by that sort of lie about who is "us" and who is "them."

I hope for a better outcome in Israel/Palestine and a better attitude among those actually want the best future for the people of the region than seems likely in the US, when it comes to rejecting the supremacist delusion and the policies that follow. Maybe that helps clarify my views and explain my anger at your accusations.

What you say you support is not much different than what I support, assuming that you regard the massacre in Gaza and the others that preceded that as terrorism, and measure the degree to which each party is to be condemned for terrorism (or war crimes) as proportionate to the number of those murdered and maimed by their actions. I suspect you actually don't measure one Israeli life or limb as equal to one in Gaza or Lebanon. You've never said you do, not that I've noticed or can recall.

Maybe that is just because I never saw one comment, or completely forgot any comment, in which you said that the crimes committed by the IDF against the Palestinians in Gaza were 100 or 1000 times worse than the crimes of Hamas against the people of Israel. which is the sort of position I would expect from anyone who measured the value of one Israeli life as equal to one Palestinian life. Maybe I missed that. Maybe you can say that OCL was 100X more evil than the offenses committed by Hamas or even 10X? I doubt it.

The alternative view, one often expressed here is that the fact that some Israelis living in a town (one from which the native Palestinian inhabitants had been expelled and forced into refugee camps) were having their sleep disturbed was justification for murdering 1400 Palestinians Again, maybe I missed it, but I've never noticed you objecting to that kind of utterly vile, overtly supremacist post. Once you do, maybe I'll notice and be less inclined to see you as part of that same camp.

(edit a typo and then a small bit more)

she mentions that " supremacist beliefs.....That attitude is a deadly poison"

and then goes and makes a definitive value judgement of what constitutes real terrorism and what is lessor.... and if you dont agree with her definition you must be right winger or worse....


Maybe that is just because I never saw one comment, or completely forgot any comment, in which you said that the crimes committed by the IDF against the Palestinians in Gaza were 100 or 1000 times worse than the crimes of Hamas against the people of Israel......maybe I missed that. Maybe you can say that OCL was 100X more evil than the offenses committed by Hamas or even 10X? I doubt it.

fanatics always sound the same extremists settlers, hamasnikim, far left, far right.......: tolerance of different views can never be apart of their supremacist ideology

you regard the mass killing of 1400 Palestinians as terrorism. You've made it clear that scaring the Jewish residents of the seized and occupied town of Siderot is "terrorism." But you are unwilling to say that the mass murder of 1400 Palestinians is "terrorism." You will wail that scaring the innocents in Siderot and causing them restless nights, although no one was injured, is terrorism, as it is. But you will never say that the IDF's long practice of mass murder, mass bombings, mass starvation, mass mutilation, mass deprivation is "terrorism."

Ignoring the vast differences in the scale of the crimes, the fact that you cannot acknowledge that mass killings, mass maimings, and even mass sleep disturbances, when committed by the IDF, are acts of terrorism, well, that says all anyone needs to know about your supremacist world view. Simply put, those who slept poorly because of the acts of "the other" were citizens of Israel, and thus human and thus were victims of "terrorism" from your perspective. And those who were massacred by the IDF were neither, from your POV.

Thanks for outing yourself with that non-reply to that simple question.

(edit tiny typo)

Are you confusing me with another poster? Or maybe I just missed it.

I am not sure what you are trying to "out" me as but I oppose both the Hamas rocket attacks and the Gaza invasion.

I find it odd, though, that you refer to Sderot as an "occupied town" - does that "out" you as someone who believes that all of Israel is actually "Occupied Palestine" as opposed to just the West Bank and Gaza?

n/t

Do you regard the mass killing of 1400 Palestinians and the thousands more non-fatal casualties and the destruction of thousands of homes and hospitals and governmental buildings as an act of terrorism?

Within the US, far less qualifies as terrorism. One burned building with no dead. But, apparently, tell me if I'm wrong, you believe that what the IDF did in Gaza was not terrorism.

You regard the firing of home-made rockets in the general direction of Siderot with no resulting injuries as terrorism, but not will characterize the mass slaughter and maimings of Palestinians by the IDF's bombings and artillery and bullets and white phosphorus as terrorism.

Seems that you never use the word "terrorism" to describe the butchering of Palestinians. For you, it seems, it only applies when (in this geographical location), Israelis are injured or frightened or killed by Palestinians, but never when Israelis injure or frighten or kill (on a 100:1 ratio) Palestinians.

Will you label the actions of Israelis (the mass slaughters and property destruction by the IDF, or the smaller scale killings and property destruction by settlers) as terrorism, or is it only terrorism if Israelis are on the receiving end, and never when they do it.?


I think the question is clear. I doubt you will answer honestly.

(edit to add a bit and the usual typos)

Any time violence is deliberately used against civilians to achieve political goals then the term terrorism is appropriate.

I do not characterize what happened in Gaza in the same way that you do. I would note that neither does the Goldstone report, nor any of the many human rights groups that have studied the invasion.

I would also correct your comment regarding the rockets fired by Hamas. Not only have they resulted in the deaths and injuries of Israeli civilians, but they have also resulted in the deaths of Palestinian children in Gaza who were hit by missiles that did not reach their target in Israel.

I don't actually recall ever referring to any of these incidents as acts of terrorism so I am not exactly sure what you are going on about in that respect.

The Passover massacre where Palestinian Hamas member Abdel-Basset Odeh killed scores of Israeli senior citizens in a hotel in Netanya would be an act of terrorism.

Similarly the Cave of the Patriots massacre where Israeli Baruch Goldstein killed scores of Palestinians praying at a mosque would also be an act of terrorism.

Both Israelis and Palestinians have been victims of terrorism and both Israelis and Palestinians have committed acts of terrorism.

share Hamas's belief that all of Israel is "occupied".

It's one thing for terrorists to speak nonsense like that, and another for supposedly knowledgable people on a board like this one.

When I read stuff like that, I am convinced that peace is not at all possible.

Because Oberliner objected to your statement that Israelis have an increasingly 'supremacist culture', you instantly leap to the conclusion that he, and by implication anyone who objects to such a remark, must regard Goldstone, Mandela and Carter as antisemites; 'the killing of 100 Palestinians as less odious than the killing one Israeli'; 'the extra-legal imprisonment of hundreds and thousands of Palestinians as no big deal'; support the blockade of Gaza; 'excuse the maiming and mutilation of hundreds of Palestinians'; etc.

Where do you make such a leap? Frankly it reminds me of Bush saying that you are either with him or with the terrorists. One can object to the right-wing governments and policies of Israel without saying that the whole culture is 'supremacist'. Oberliner opposed OCL and other right-wing policies; so do I, and yet I object to such comments, for very much the same reasons as I object to such comments as that Palestinians or Arabs as a whole have a 'culture of death'. Let's attack political and military policies, not entire cultures.

ConsAreLiars:

that kind of massive intolerance and generalization is just too much of a cult/religion to be anything else. So there really shouldn't be a surprise for the "with me or against me" kind of mentality.....

do you see this article, and the fear/hatred it encourages, as a part of a wider trend within Israeli society?

I 'll venture that you have no info to back such as question and in fact are subtly asserting that jewish israelis are all supremacist...as you wrote next

Are they turning into a culture even more completely based on a supremacist ideology?

but you have inspired me, i'm thinking of getting a new name: ALLDUerARERACISTs.......its fits those who make definitive statements about cultures when they have either limited knowledge or no knowledge and attempt to subtly place in their racist views into a discussion to fit their ideology/religion- pass the kool aid please

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Would it not be correct to say that you don't mean Israeli culture since Israelis include Arab Israelis? You are talking specifically about the Jewish population in Israel, right? The Jews of Israel are the ones who you are comparing to Germans in Nazi-era Germany, correct?

You are claiming that the "common view" of Arabs among many Jews currently living in Israel is very similar to the "common view" of Jews that was held by Nazi-era Germans?

You are suggesting that many of the Jews living in Israel share a common perspective with the Nazis, even to the point of supporting extermination?

IMO it is also evidence of an old double standard in play I noticed that there was little mention of young Jewish men dating Arab girls is that because it doesn't happen or is that because it's somehow "different"? I have witnessed this attitude first hand where interracial relationships are concerned

but i would venture that the "arab girls" are "protected" by their families more and not let out to play as much as the jewish girls...hence the jewish girls get the meet the arab men (who then get to be beat up by the jewish ones....)

would the same Arab guy who dates Jewish girls be ok with his sister dating a Jewish guy and conversely would the Jewish guy out protecting Jewish girls turn down an opportunity to date an Arab girl if it came up?

I'm betting no to both by and large

I agree with you there.

i agree the answer is no ......

and dates a Jew is in very serious trouble.

The Jewish Israelis in the article are clearly opposed to this dating for racial reasons.

I would imagine that inter-cultural dating is opposed in Palestine for very different reasons. The issue would be more one of collaborating with the enemy.

There are huge power dynamics at work here that you completely fail to recognize.

The Jews mentioned in this article are not opposed to this dating for "racial reasons" - that is an absolutely false claim.

And you have no basis for your other, even more ridiculous claim that the Arabs who oppose this dating do so because they view it as "collaborating with the enemy" - that has got to be one of the more foolhardy statements I have seen posted here in a long time.

Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs are not "enemies" no matter how much you and Avigdor Lieberman would like to portray it that way.

and dates Arabs is in serious trouble?

Oh... do you have a problem with that?

Please look at your own bigoted statement.

That's a pretty creative way to repackage some pretty ugly racism going on in portions of Israeli society.

Nice work!

Even in parts of Jerusalem, which is home to some of the most religious RW folks in all of Israel, dating between Jews and Arabs has become "the norm".

Israeli youth, both Jewish and Arab, do not believe there is anything out of the ordinary about dating one another.

This is a beautiful thing.

It's not about 2 sweethearts on a date....

If you think anyone mentioned in this story have "racist attitudes that would make Klan members blush" then you have absolutely no understanding of the Klan and what they stand for.

Incidentally, the KKK is alive and well in the US and elsewhere, with membership spiking as a result of President Obama's election.

anti-Semitic feelings in the guise of "news."

Perhaps the man from across the pond can look at stories about how many Britons do not want their white precious girls dating men from Pakistan.

And blatant racism is less officially tolerated than it used to be.

Nonetheless there are still major problems ranging from the viciously anti-immigrant, anti-Gypsy etc. propaganda of certain tabloids to the election of two BNP members to the Europaean parliament. Also, other countries in Europe have elected some pretty disgusting people to the Europaean parliament and in some cases their own parliaments..

Racism is a nasty problem virtually everywhere.

Like all racist types, one of the people in the article makes out his motives for going around harrassing kids is noble, and that he's protecting Jewish girls from domestic abuse. Yeah, coz clearly only Arab males are capable of being abusive to their partners....not! Also, the bit where someone talks about how a few Jewish girls have gone into the West Bank and never been heard from again was said like they'd vanished on some expedition and had been sacrificed to some pagan god or something....

Dumb question, but how do these idiots know whether someone is Arab or Jewish? They look the same, don't they?

Looks like some of the old stereotypes (from the time of the early Jewish settlers) about Arab men are alive and well!

No other will do!

At least that's what the Palestinian girls say.....

Arab men have far more charm and finesse than do Israeli* men the latter of whom tend to be a tad too blunt to put it politely

* before anyone gets their drawers in a wad I mean strictly Israeli men not Jewish guys in general

the kids are going to deal with the problem for us by realizing how stupid racism/ethnic hatred on both sides is.

I hope they all fuck each other until the older generation dies off and they come into power

I'm at a loss for words.