How I'm losing my love for Israel...

http://www.forward.com/articles/114180/



Interesting piece for the responses as much as anything. More: http://www.forward.com/articles/114180/

The one President who actually did more for Israel than any other before or since. Go figure..... :evilfrown:

...I can't give up a commitment to the existence of Israel, but I can no longer claim to be supporter. It's like having a friend you care about who constantly displays self-destructive impulses but who you know has good in their heart someplace and you wish they would simply listen to their better selves.

Taking one side or the other just encourages the violence. They don't need my help for that.

Then my mind, what was left of it, refused to continue.

I also went through Mr Landes "critique" of the Goldstone report, linked in the comments. I think I can begin to discern the main features of the counter-attack, I keep seeing certain ideas repeated now.

I do think the responses are more interesting than the article, mostly because of the complete lack of consensus about anything at all to do with this issue. The prevalent reliance on simple-minded dogmas and emotional tenacity of one sort or another is nothing new, of course.

Mr Michaelson's essay is a decent piece of writing, as writing, one hopes it helped him sort things out. I don't think I really have much to say about the content, it speaks for itself fairly well, and I'm not up for a critique.

...that you read Landes' critique (fisking) of Goldstone.

nevertheless it struck me how many incandescent responses there were to what was a fairly sincere and heartfelt piece.

I could relate to it quite a bit actually, in the sense of being disenchanted with one's people and one's cause. It strikes me why this is called "self-hatred" - if anything, it tends more towards self-importance or even smug superiority.

I actually found the link to the article on the Commentary magazine website, with the obligatory reference to what a piece of crap it was. A pity, it used to print articles that were similarly honest and introspective, such as this one:-

http://www.lukeford.net/Images/photos/out.pdf

I tend to have a negative view of people and causes in general, in the sense of political ideologies, though it really just boils down to causes, ethnicity as such is a good thing. I see the necessity for causes given the deliberate corruption of political life, and yet causes are routinely corrupted themselves. Sort of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen">"Red Queen" situation for political reform.

I can feel the narcissism of it, but I have to give credit for a sincere attempt at self-examination. If one examines oneself and finds narcissism, what is an honest writer to do? How can one examine oneself without a bit of narcissism? It is true that he doesn't sound like he's ever been economically deprived.

That Podhoretz thing really takes me back. I remember doing a church inner-city outreach thing when I was maybe 16. It is still vivid in my memory, it was maybe 1961, my first interaction with black people. The main impression I retain is one of friendly but complete lack of understanding or each others worlds. That was when I still believed what they taught me in High School.

I reached his point long ago, if I was ever at any other. I don't 'love' Israel; I just think that it has the same right to exist as any other country, and that world history shows why Jews need a homeland. But I disagree with and disapprove of an awful lot of what Israel does.

Unlike the author, my support, such as it is, for Israel is not damaged by conversations with left-wingers who oppose Israel; but it can be affected by the views of the Israeli government and some of its supporters themselves. Being informed by people associated with the Israeli government that people like me are culturally 'lost' and politically the spreaders of a 'virus' can make it very tempting to think "well, you obviously don't need my support anyway".

Then I read or hear accusations that keep cropping up that Israel and 'Zionists' are controlling the world; the greatest threat to world peace; organized 9-11; are responsible for the war in Iraq; worse than any other country or group... and I realize why, in spite of everything, Israel still needs support - not unconditional or unlimited support, but the limited but firm sort that most countries in the world take for granted.

Then I read or hear accusations that keep cropping up that Israel and 'Zionists' are controlling the world; the greatest threat to world peace; organized 9-11; are responsible for the war in Iraq; worse than any other country or group... and I realize why, in spite of everything, Israel still needs support - not unconditional or unlimited support, but the limited but firm sort that most countries in the world take for granted.

only i think i take it a bit more personal, given that i live in israel....

I get that it's not really love, but a blind and unquestioning patriotism that doesn't allow room for criticism or reflection. I find that sort of blind fervour scary, no matter which country is the beneficiary of it. And when it comes to Israel in particular, I have seen it happen in this forum where people who I know are good people go silent when it comes to criticising the Israeli govt, or if they do say anything, the criticism is muted to the point of being irritating in its wimpidity. There's no way they're part of the *I Heart Israel* brigade who act as though if they don't personally 'defend' the honour of Israel when it comes to even the worst things the Israeli govt is responsible for, it'll shrivel up and vanish, but for me they're more annoying because unlike the *I Heart Israel* brigade who most of the time I don't think give a second thought to the suffering of the Palestinian people, I've got a very fair idea that they do care deeply and are upset by what the Israeli govt has done...

Students almost never get the date they want,

The idea that American Jews are cooling on their love for Israel is patently false.

The entire United States Congress supports Israel.

Is it a perfect country?

No, but it certainly wins on human and civil rights compared to all of its neighbors.

And in terms of deaths caused to Arabs?

The US and Britain win that by a landslide.

Or the Arabs themselves win that, since they have killed millions of each other.

Israel's treatment pales by comparison.

I will always support Israel.

Jimmy Carter wasn't entirely off with the analogy. Israel needs to take the high road, even if it cost them as winning back the support of the political left worldwide will generate more benefits than whatever they bear.

its enough of a liberal democracy with enough educated citizens and tolerance to advance on its own while balancing the security needs to keep its citizens safe from attacks.

the intl left has failed not just the Palestinians but have little credit within israel.....see gaza for details.

..and have for DECADES. It could not sustain its defense posture without it -- or bankrupting its economy. Self-sufficiency is an Israeli illusion.

or the left at all.

As a member of the international left, I would like to think that we influence lots of things in lots of places; but I doubt that the influence is really all that great, and certainly not when it comes to US military aid.

He was speaking for himself, not for American Jews, which is good, as I find those who take it upon themselves to speak on behalf of American Jews and act as though they all think the same way to be pretty stupid and trying to project their own individual beliefs onto an entire group of people....

what the writer is saying here, albeit I was a bit disturbed at his reliance on his social circle as an influence.

Israeli leaders are there to protect the existence of Israel and its citizens the way they see fit. that it does not meet the "high standard" of people here - tough.

After all, they're a bunch of RW and fascist extremists. I feel very sorry for you that you think there's a necessity to so badly abuse another people in order for Israel to 'exist'. That sort of thing isn't necessary at all...

I think that Israel is sometimes singled out for criticism that would not be addressed to other countries. I myself object when people imply that Israel is uniquely evil. However, in this international society (not just DU, the world at large) we have a right to criticize every country.

American, British, Palestinian, Italian, Russian, etc. etc. 'leaders are there to protect the existence of (their country) and its citizens the way they see fit'. (I am here confining myself to countries that have democratic elections at least on paper.) Should we not criticize any of these?

Israel often acts as though it wants the support of Jews internationally. So perhaps what someone like the author of the OP says is relevant to them. Or maybe not. In any case, the fact that 'leaders are there to protect their country the way they see fit' does not mean that everything they do is right.

that should be obvious.....some obvious disavow it, some disagree with it, some don't like it...but the connection, the identity is there for many......this is clear via israeli policies, the israeli population, the jewish identity and culture.

However world Jewry is not made up of just the left there is obviously a large right middle and religious contingent as well of which all of israeli govts have kept in contact with and nourish . What the author wrote is relevant in that its a connection that has been lost...my only contention is that the author seems to be more a victim of peer pressure than anything else.