Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Israel 'to unveil plans to build nuclear power plant'

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 11:58 AM
Original message
Israel 'to unveil plans to build nuclear power plant'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8556266.stm


-snip-

They say an announcement will be made by Israeli Infrastructure Minister Uzi Landau at an energy forum in Paris.

Israel is facing a crisis over electricity supplies, but environmental objections have blocked efforts to build a new coal-fired plant.

Israel has two nuclear reactors, including the Dimona facility which is said to have produced nuclear weapons.

The secret reactor is located in the south of the country. Israel neither confirms nor denies having nuclear weapons under its policy of "ambiguity".
-snip-
--------------------------------


since the lack of enough water in the region already has caused problems I'm assuming a new plant would be on the salt water side of Israel?

no more nuke plants anywhere on earth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nuclear power
Edited on Wed Mar-10-10 12:36 PM by sabbat hunter
with modern designs is safe, clean, especially if reprocessing is used.


There are other ways to cool a reactor besides water with modern methods. Any active power plant would need water/steam to turn the turbines though so the water issue in the ME should not come in to play here. (as opposed to passive power like wind, solar)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kayecy Donating Member (931 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. As a non-NPT member, how does Israel propose to get round the nuclear supplier's ban?
As a non-NPT member, how does Israel propose to get round the nuclear supplier's ban?.....Have a cosy relationship curtesy of the US like India or what?.....Will the IAA accept inspecting just the new reacter and pretend Dimona doesn't exist?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. considering that they
already have nuclear weapons, they must have a supply of uranium already or are planning on using something like a thorium reactor, which is much more abundant in supply (and I believe not covered by the NPT)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kayecy Donating Member (931 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-10 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I think they do have some sort of medical reactor but who did they buy it from?
sabbat hunter

They do have some sort of medical reactor but how did they get it?...the Nuclear Suppliers Group rules are quite clear...Not an NPT member and you don't get even peaceful nuclear-related equipment. There is talk of the French supplying this new civil reactor but that would clearly break the rules.

More interesting is why Egypt,Syria, Iran etc bothered to sign the NPT, especially when they knew Israel was not going to sign it and was already half-way to making a bomb by 1967.

What did any of them hope to gain from signing the NPT?
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. at one point
they got uranium from South Africa.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. They got their reactor from France and France got nuclear expertise from Israeli scientists
Israel was a nuclear power well before 67

"One expert postulated, based on unnamed sources, that the French nuclear test in 1960 made two nuclear powers not one—such was the depth of collaboration."


The full article is an exellent read

THE THIRD TEMPLE'S HOLY OF HOLIES:
ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army
The Counterproliferation Papers

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/farr.htm

snip




snip
II. 1948-1962: With French Cooperation

In 1949, Francis Perrin, a member of the French Atomic Energy Commission, nuclear physicist, and friend of Dr. Bergmann visited the Weizmann Institute. He invited Israeli scientists to the new French nuclear research facility at Saclay. A joint research effort was subsequently set up between the two nations. Perrin publicly stated in 1986 that French scientists working in America on the Manhattan Project and in Canada during World War II were told they could use their knowledge in France provided they kept it a secret.<8> Perrin reportedly provided nuclear data to Israel on the same basis.<9> One Israeli scientist worked at the U.S. Los Alamos National Laboratory and may have directly brought expertise home.<10>

After the Second World War, France's nuclear research capability was quite limited. France had been a leading research center in nuclear physics before World War II, but had fallen far behind the U.S., the U.S.S.R., the United Kingdom, and even Canada. Israel and France were at a similar level of expertise after the war, and Israeli scientists could make significant contributions to the French effort. Progress in nuclear science and technology in France and Israel remained closely linked throughout the early fifties. Israeli scientists probably helped construct the G-1 plutonium production reactor and UP-1 reprocessing plant at Marcoule.<11> France profited from two Israeli patents on heavy water production and low-grade uranium enrichment.<12> In the 1950s and into the early 1960s, France and Israel had close relations in many areas. France was Israel's principal arms supplier, and as instability spread through French colonies in North Africa, Israel provided valuable intelligence obtained from contacts with sephardic Jews in those countries.

The two nations collaborated, with the United Kingdom, in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956. The Suez Crisis became the real genesis of Israel's nuclear weapons production program. With the Czech-Egyptian arms agreement in 1955, Israel became worried. When absorbed, the Soviet-bloc equipment would triple Egyptian military strength. After Egypt's President Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran in 1953, Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion ordered the development of chemical munitions and other unconventional munitions, including nuclear.<13> Six weeks before the Suez Canal operation, Israel felt the time was right to approach France for assistance in building a nuclear reactor. Canada had set a precedent a year earlier when it had agreed to build a 40-megawatt CIRUS reactor in India. Shimon Peres, the Director-General of the Defense Ministry and aide to Prime Minister (and Defense Minister) David Ben-Gurion, and Bergmann met with members of the CEA (France's Atomic Energy Commission). During September 1956, they reached an initial understanding to provide a research reactor. The two countries concluded final agreements at a secret meeting outside Paris where they also finalized details of the Suez Canal operation.<14>

For the United Kingdom and France, the Suez operation, launched on October 29, 1956, was a total disaster. Israel's part was a military success, allowing it to occupy the entire Sinai Peninsula by 4 November, but the French and British canal invasion on 6 November was a political failure. Their attempt to advance south along the Suez Canal stopped due to a cease-fire under fierce Soviet and U.S. pressure. Both nations pulled out, leaving Israel to face the pressure from the two superpowers alone. Soviet Premier Bulganin and President Khrushchev issued an implicit threat of nuclear attack if Israel did not withdraw from the Sinai.

On 7 November 1956, a secret meeting was held between Israeli foreign minister Golda Meir, Shimon Peres, and French foreign and defense ministers Christian Pineau and Maurice Bourges-Manoury. The French, embarrassed by their failure to support their ally in the operation, found the Israelis deeply concerned about a Soviet threat. In this meeting, they substantially modified the initial understanding beyond a research reactor. Peres secured an agreement from France to assist Israel in developing a nuclear deterrent. After further months of negotiation, agreement was reached for an 18-megawatt (thermal) research reactor of the EL-3 type, along with plutonium separation technology. France and Israel signed the agreement in October 1957.<15> Later the reactor was officially upgraded to 24 megawatts, but the actual specifications issued to engineers provided for core cooling ducts sufficient for up to three times this power level, along with a plutonium plant of similar capacity. Data from insider reports revealed in 1986 would estimate the power level at 125-150 megawatts.<16> The reactor, not connected to turbines for power production, needed this increase in size only to increase its plutonium production. How this upgrade came about remains unknown, but Bourges-Maunoury, replacing Mollet as French prime minister, may have contributed to it.<17> Shimon Peres, the guiding hand in the Israeli nuclear program, had a close relationship with Bourges-Maunoury and probably helped him politically.<18>

Why was France so eager to help Israel? DeMollet and then de Gaulle had a place for Israel within their strategic vision. A nuclear Israel could be a counterforce against Egypt in France's fight in Algeria. Egypt was openly aiding the rebel forces there. France also wanted to obtain the bomb itself. The United States had embargoed certain nuclear enabling computer technology from France. Israel could get the technology from America and pass it through to France. The U.S. furnished Israel heavy water, under the Atoms for Peace program, for the small research reactor at Soreq. France could use this heavy water. Since France was some years away from nuclear testing and success, Israeli science was an insurance policy in case of technical problems in France's own program.<19> The Israeli intelligence community's knowledge of past French (especially Vichy) anti-Semitic transgressions and the continued presence of former Nazi collaborators in French intelligence provided the Israelis with some blackmail opportunities.<20> The cooperation was so close that Israel worked with France on the preproduction design of early Mirage jet aircraft, designed to be capable of delivering nuclear bombs.<21>

French experts secretly built the Israeli reactor underground at Dimona, in the Negev desert of southern Israel near Beersheba. Hundreds of French engineers and technicians filled Beersheba, the biggest town in the Negev. Many of the same contractors who built Marcoule were involved. SON (a French firm) built the plutonium separation plants in both France and Israel. The ground was broken for the EL-102 reactor (as it was known to France) in early 1958.

Israel used many subterfuges to conceal activity at Dimona. It called the plant a manganese plant, and rarely, a textile plant. The United States by the end of 1958 had taken pictures of the project from U-2 spy planes, and identified the site as a probable reactor complex. The concentration of Frenchmen was also impossible to hide from ground observers. In 1960, before the reactor was operating, France, now under the leadership of de Gaulle, reconsidered and decided to suspend the project. After several months of negotiation, they reached an agreement in November that allowed the reactor to proceed if Israel promised not to make nuclear weapons and to announce the project to the world. Work on the plutonium reprocessing plant halted. On 2 December 1960, before Israel could make announcements, the U.S. State Department issued a statement that Israel had a secret nuclear installation. By 16 December, this became public knowledge with its appearance in the New York Times. On 21 December, Ben-Gurion announced that Israel was building a 24-megawatt reactor “for peaceful purposes.”<22>

Over the next year, relations between the U.S. and Israel became strained over the Dimona reactor. The U.S. accepted Israel's assertions at face value publicly, but exerted pressure privately. Although Israel allowed a cursory inspection by well known American physicists Eugene Wigner and I. I. Rabi, Prime Minister Ben-Gurion consistently refused to allow regular international inspections. The final resolution between the U.S. and Israel was a commitment from Israel to use the facility for peaceful purposes, and to admit an U.S. inspection team twice a year. These inspections began in 1962 and continued until 1969. Inspectors saw only the above ground part of the buildings, not the many levels underground and the visit frequency was never more than once a year. The above ground areas had simulated control rooms, and access to the underground areas was kept hidden while the inspectors were present. Elevators leading to the secret underground plutonium reprocessing plant were actually bricked over.<23> Much of the information on these inspections and the political maneuvering around it has just been declassified.<24>

One interpretation of Ben-Gurion's “peaceful purposes” pledge given to America is that he interpreted it to mean that nuclear weapon development was not excluded if used strictly for defensive, and not offensive purposes. Israel's security position in the late fifties and early sixties was far more precarious than now. After three wars, with a robust domestic arms industry and a reliable defense supply line from the U.S., Israel felt much more secure. During the fifties and early sixties a number of attempts by Israel to obtain security guarantees from the U.S. to place Israel under the U.S. nuclear umbrella like NATO or Japan, were unsuccessful. If the U.S. had conducted a forward-looking policy to restrain Israel's proliferation, along with a sure defense agreement, we could have prevented the development of Israel's nuclear arsenal.

One common discussion in the literature concerns testing of Israeli nuclear devices. In the early phases, the amount of collaboration between the French and Israeli nuclear weapons design programs made testing unnecessary. In addition, although their main efforts were with plutonium, the Israelis may have amassed enough uranium for gun-assembled type bombs which, like the Hiroshima bomb, require no testing. One expert postulated, based on unnamed sources, that the French nuclear test in 1960 made two nuclear powers not one—such was the depth of collaboration.]25] There were several Israeli observers at the French nuclear tests and the Israelis had “unrestricted access to French nuclear test explosion data.”<26> Israel also supplied essential technology and hardware.<27> The French reportedly shipped reprocessed plutonium back to Israel as part of their repayment for Israeli scientific help.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kayecy Donating Member (931 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. A very interesting article Dick...Any suggestions for my second query?.....
My second query was:

More interesting is why Egypt,Syria, Iran etc bothered to sign the NPT, especially when they knew Israel was not going to sign it and was already half-way to making a bomb by 1967.

What did any of them hope to gain from signing the NPT?



Any suggestions?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Israel to build more nuclear stuff; demands sanctions against Iran
Edited on Wed Mar-10-10 08:29 PM by Alamuti Lotus
The Onion couldn't write more ridiculous headlines than what the reality of this routinely provides.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC