Would the U.S. Shoot Down an Israeli Jet? Top Officer Won’t Say

MORGANTOWN, West Virginia — I’m not going to make a big deal of this, although some dug deep in the trenches of the Middle East debate might. But America’s top military officer wouldn’t rule the possibility today of U.S. forces firing on Israeli jets, if Israel launched a pre-emptive strike on Iran.

In a town hall on the campus of the University of West Virginia, a young Air Force ROTC cadet asked Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen to respond to a “rumor.” If Israel decided to attack Iran, the speculation went, those jet would need to fly through Iraqi airspace to reach their targets. That airspace is considered a “no-fly” zone by the American military. So might U.S. troops shoot down the Israeli jets, the airmen asked the chairman, if they breached that airspace?

Mullen tried to sidestep the question. “We have an exceptionally strong relationship with Israel. I’ve spent a lot of time with my counterpart in Israel. So we also have a very clear understanding of where we are. And beyond that, I just wouldn’t get into the speculation of what might happen and who might do what. I don’t think it serves a purpose, frankly,” he said. “I am hopeful that this will be resolved in a way where we never have to answer a question like that.”

The cadet followed-up: “Would an airmen like me ever be ordered to fire on an Israeli – aircraft or personnel?”

Mullen’s second answer was much the same as his first. “Again, I wouldn’t move out into the future very far from here. They’re an extraordinarily close ally, have been for a long time, and will be in the future,” the admiral said.

Does this represent a shift in American policy towards Israel? Some signal that the U.S. would stop an Israeli first strike at the final moment? Probably not. I’d guess this is Mullen trying not to wade further into treacherous waters. But it was interesting to hear America’s top military officer decline to knock down the idea that U.S. troops might fire on America’s closest ally in the Middle East.

MORE...

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04/top-officer-iraq-no-fly-zone-applies-to-israeli-jets/

Hint.
It was not
Iraq
Iran
Yemen
Egypt
Sudan
Libya
Kuwait
Saudi Arabia
Pakistan
Afghanistan (with all their ocean front territory)
Bangladesh
Ceylon
Sri Lanka
India
Lebanon
Syria
Jordan
UAE
Eritrea
Ethiopia


Nope, none of those ever deliberately attacked a US war ship without warning and almost sunk her.

The answer? Israel. Deliberately. Not just with jets (that we sold them), but with torpedo boats (using US made torpedos).
Check out the USS Liberty and how many American sailors the Israelis killed in cold blood.

These are our friends?

To be fair.

I say we treat them like we treat Iraq.

but Iraq did attack the USS Stark on accident back in the late 80s.

There was that little spy thing along the way as well, wasn't it Walker or something along those lines?


In my opinion...... there would not be a question "if".

The US didn't begin selling Israel planes until years after the Liberty incident.
But aside from that can you come up with a single reason that they would have deliberately fired on a US ship?

Several books and the BBC documentary USS Liberty: Dead in the Water argued that Liberty was attacked in order to prevent the U.S. from knowing about the forthcoming attack in the Golan Heights, which apparently would violate a cease-fire to which Israel's government had agreed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

if not weeks after the Liberty incident that the US first supplied Israel with attack aircaft and the aircraft was promised prior as a reward for Israel turning over a captured MIG

Following the turning over of the MiG-21, President Johnson invited Prime Minister Levi Eshkol to his ranch in Texas and Eshkol arrived with a long shopping list. He left with promises of future U.S. military supplies, including A-4 attack aircraft. Although the U.S. military hardware did not arrive in time for the 1967 war, it ultimately replaced the French source for military hardware and the U.S.-Israel special relationship became closer and warmer.

http://hnn.us/articles/751.html

Besides, you'll notice I said "selling" which doesn't apply to your instance. Up through the Yom Kippur War Israel was primarily still using French made Mirages.

Regardless, any way you look at it the point I was refuting remains false. What is your point in arguing that Israel began receiving American jets at a slightly earlier date? If anything, it reinforces my point about the Liberty incident being ridiculously blown out of proportion. Why would the US begin giving jets away to a hostile country that had just purposely attacked them? Did the US wish to be attacked more effectively? Or perhaps it was an isolated incident?

Israel began to receive A-4's in 1968, and F-4's in 1969.

It is more likely they were procured from the RAF as opposed to your implication of the USAF.

were highlighted I made no claim as to how they were procured, do you have any proof of your claim the onus is on you it is your claim

I didn't say you made a claim, I said you implied one, otherwise why highlight the American-made ones in a sub-thread about sales or giving of planes by the US?

you can't prove your own claims so you once again try to BS your way out as to mine I explained why I highlighted the American made aircraft the RAF may well have used American built aircraft still there is no proof that is where Israel procured them is it? I can only imagine your frantically Googleing right now looking for proof if you can find anything solid good if not who cares

"ChairmanAgnostic" falsely claimed: " Not just with jets (that we sold them),..." Shaktimaan corrected him ("The US didn't begin selling Israel planes until years after the Liberty incident.") You then "took issue" with his use of "years later" and claimed it was months (post #13) "aranthus" joined the sub-thread with information on plane sales. It is that post to which you added information about Israeli air-power prior to 1968 and highlighted the American-built aircraft as if to imply, based on the post to which you responded, the US had possibly sold Israel aircraft even earlier. If that wasn't your implication then it is non-sensical to include highlighted American-built aircraft as no-one implied Israel was not in possession of American-built products.

As usual, your posts are filled-with misleading information and your responses are profound in their ignorance.

If you can ok if you cannot that's fine too, your other posts here speak for themselves

Yes, my posts do speak for themselves, as do yours.

yes you did make a claim as to likelihood, one you can not prove so instead you pretend once again to know what my post meant which is your right however Israel did have an in so to speak

Edit: Even your re-write is illogical. I said "likelihood" and didn't declare it fact. Your posts are often devoid of logic and even basic sense.

Between December 1947 and May 1948, Jewish agents in the USA, Europe and elsewhere acquired various war-surplus aircraft for delivery to the Sherut Avir. Subtefuge was required to avoid a newly imposed arms embargo and several aircraft failed to reach their intended destination. Many Jewish and non-Jewish aircrew around the world also volunteered to fly for the new air arm. In early May 1948, the first group of Jewish pilots commenced training in Czechoslovakia on the Avia S 199 fighter, following a secret arms agreement between the Czechoslovak government and the Jewish Agency.

http://idf-israel1948.blogspot.com/2008/12/israel-air-force-first-sreps-1948.html

now in my original post in this tiresome little sub-thread there were several British made planes mentioned too, however it seems likely that Czechoslovakia may have been the source

See, if someone, say Iran, purchases Russian missiles and then sell them to Syria, Russia didn't sell missiles to Syria.

Iran would sell them to Syria, if so Russia may not be the direct seller but was an accessory

but I never made any claims I pointed out that Israel was in possession of American made aircraft as wll as British

but do continue I unlike you have provided more than spurious claims based not on fact but rather on personal dislike or boredom

The question was when the US sold them to Israel. Either you knew this, were confused, or were trying to change the goalposts.

In 1987, Iraqi jet fighters attacked the USS Stark under disputed circumstances. 37 American sailors died as a result.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31)

and continues to pay till this day

Lots has changed since 1987, more still has changed since 1967.

Of course it's only ROTC, but annoying the JCS is not a good way to improve your prospects.

at the same time that they hear endless preaching from End of Times Christian crazies.

Why should we worry? I am sure they will place their oaths to preserve and protect . . . . the bible? the constitution? Israel so they can turn it christian?
No, wait! They are part of the 144,000 ready for rapture!

Tools get used.

JWs are recent. It ties in with the whole Armageddon/Rapture/BornAgain protestant reformation thing, but I do not claim expertise on the details of 2000 years of Christian theological musings.

apparently it is a reference in Revelation:-

"Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

* Revelation 14:1 (ESV)

Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

* Revelation 14:3-5 (ESV)

And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. For it is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

***********

I'd be interested in how they're going to get 12,000 from all those various tribes in this day and age, particularly if they need to be male virgins.

Must have been some good stuff, whatever it was they got loaded with.

Anyway, the evangelical sects of the protestant stream tend to have a good time with it, Revelations I mean, though they do not generally agree on all the details. My favorite is the "Two-seed in the Spirit Predestinarian Baptists", whom are also mentioned in Kurt Vonnegut's novel "God Bless You Mr Rosewater", which has long been a favorite of mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit_Predestinarian_Baptists

If you are interested in the history of Christian theology, I can recommend H. L. Mencken's "Treatise on the Gods" as a good read, although he does not limit himself to Christianity, it's a bit dated, and I imagine he would offend some Muslims.

"The Five Gospels: What Did Jesus Really Say?" is a good read too, in the way of New Testament scholarship, but is not about Revelations.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006063040X/

I'd be taking the priest's job away from him, and then where would the poor bastard be?

Command Authority deemed hostile. That includes Israeli aircraft.