Pilar Rahola: The utter hypocrisy of Israel’s European foes

Why don’t we see demonstrations against Islamic dictatorships in London, Paris, Barcelona? Or demonstrations against the Burmese dictatorship?

Why aren’t there demonstrations against the enslavement of millions of women who live without any legal protection?

Why aren’t there demonstrations against the use of children as human bombs where there is conflict with Islam?

Why has there been no leadership in support of the victims of Islamic dictatorship in Sudan?

cont'd...
http://www.projo.com/opinion/contributors/content/CT_pilar9_06-09-10_1EIQI7F_v6.4924b91.html

:toast:

Some examples:

On victims of the dictatorship in Sudan:

www.savedarfur.org

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6604555.stm

http://peopleandplanet.org/navid5842

On the Burma dictatorship:

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions_details.asp?ActionID=343&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=homepage&utm_content=assk_nib

http://another-green-world.blogspot.com/2007/09/burma-demonstration.html

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/index.php/news-and-reports/public-events/all-events


On women's rights:

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=609

http://womensgrid.freecharity.org.uk/?p=1659

http://www.demotix.com/photo/270079/protest-solidarity-women-iran270079

http://www.free-education.org.uk/?p=328

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=18160

....WRT all these other causes doesn't come close to the disproportionate attention given to Israel. Compare reactions to N.Korea sinking a S.Korean ship to that of the recent flotilla incident. Outrage at Iran for their reaction to last year's elections, or their nuclear program.

There's no comparison.

8000 rockets on Israel before OCL. Virtual silence.

In fact, when it comes to the defense of Palestinians there's hardly any criticism leveled at Hamas for the way they abuse Palestinian women, children, religious minorities, and homosexuals. Nothing about Hamas rejecting flotilla aid for the past 2 weeks, or the recent raiding of NGO and Human Rights offices and their ban on municipal elections. There's very little said about the miserable condition of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon or Syria. Little to no criticism of Egypt for their role in the blockade. Zero outrage at Turkey for their role with the IHH in the flotilla incident.

When there's talk about "freedom" for Palestinians, there's nothing said about "freedom" for Egyptians, Syrians, or Iranians. This is all double-talk.

This is an issue emphasized by general human rights organizations, and organizations specifically linked to Iran.

There was for example a big demo after the 'election' there:

http://www.demotix.com/news/87138/demonstration-iranian-embassy-london-following-elections

Certainly, a pro-democracy activist in Syria considers not only that the world has shown concern about Syrian human rights, but that this has had some impact on Syria:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/02/syria-humanrights


Whether these attract as much attention as Israel is a different issue, but they *exist*. And the risks of preoccupation with Israel deflecting from other world problems are in more than one direction: just as single-minded preoccupation with the actions of Israel can deflect from awareness and campaigning in other directions, so can a preoccupation with the world's real or imagined focus on Israel that leads to an assumption that there *are* no campaigns over other causes.

There's no sense pretending that attention on Israel's actions are even remotely close to being in proportion with other things happening throughout the world.

we should give a bit more encouragement to what is being done elsewhere in the world, instead of thinking of it just in terms of what's happening with regard to Israel.

I agree that it's hypocritical for countries to boycott Israel when they're doing things as bad or worse themselves. E.g. the USA and UK re Iraq. But assuming that protests against (e.g.) Iranian oppression of women, or tyranny in Burma, are non-existent or irrelevant because one is focusing comparing them with protests about Israel, is just as much of a deflection as ignoring them because one is focusing on misdeeds by Israel.

...but blatant antisemitism WRT Israel. Even if Israel were guilty of everything they're accused of, it's antisemitism to basically single them out to the exclusion of every other country. However, it's worse than that due to the blatant distortions, exaggerations, and slander. An example recently being the Mavi Marmara incident where the activists killed are still portrayed as peaceful humanitarians, as well as bogus stories about deliberate and unprovoked IDF assassinations or executions of some of the passengers (a real doozy about 4 bullets to the back of someone's head). Media reaction to the incident in relation to all else going on in the world is disproportionate as well as the usual UN reaction.

I can think of no other rational explanation other than antisemitism.

Other things include greater preoccupation with places associated with America than with other places. America itself probably attracts more attention and criticism than anywhere else. Israel attracts attention, both from people with a constructive desire for change, and from 'mirror-image-ists' who think that the USA, Britain and Israel are the 'axis of evil'.

Some criticism of Israel is antisemitic, just as some criticism of Iran (which also attracts greater attention than many other countries) is Islamophobic; but that doesn't mean the majority is. On the whole, countries strongly linked, as friend or enemy, to America and the West, attract more interest from Westerners than, say, the majority of African countries.

In the UN, Israel tends to lose the political popularity contest, because the Arab states tend to vote as a bloc on issues relating to Israel, even when they quarrel among themselves on other issues.

An organization that I support, which deals with grassroots approaches to conflicts in sometimes-forgotten places, is:

www.peacedirect.org


P.S. other countries do get 'slandered' too! There is quite a contingent in the UK who blame the EU and its constituent countries for EVERYTHING!

It has no consciousness, no conscience, no heart, no soul, no will of its own. It does what the majority of member governments tell it to do. The majority of those governments have supported positions that are at best ambivalent to Israel since before there was an Israel. Most have been hostile. Does it matter why? If someone is trying to kill you, does it matter to you if it's because of hatred or because they're a professional assassin who's doing a job? One thing is certain. Whether Israel is actually right or wrong has precious little to do with what the UN says about it.

I can think of no other reason than antisemitism.

that Bush/Cheney had their campaign items like hats and shirts made in Burma?

If people don't know about these efforts, it's because they're not looking for them.

:eyes:

Prizes

* Doctor honoris causa in Universidad de Artes y Ciencias de la Comunicación de Santiago de Chile, 2004, for her fight in favour of human rights
* Premio Javer Olam (2004), given by Jewish Chilean Community for her fight against antisemitism
* Cicla Price (2005), given for her fight against antisemitism
* Honour Member of University of Tel Aviv, 2006
* Golden Menora Price 2006, with Simone Weil, given by French Bnai Brith
* Scopus Award laureate 2007, given by the Hebrew University of Jerusalem
* APEI Prize for her articles, given by "Asociación Profesional Española de Informadores de Prensa, Radio y Televisión"
* Honoured guest at the AIPAC's Policy Conference, 2008
* Senador Angel Pulido, 2009, given by "Federación de Comunidades Judías de España"
* Mass Media Award, 2009, given by American Jewish Committee, for her fight bias to Human Rights

That's the total list of "Prizes" this individual has been honored with in her career, as documented at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilar_Rahola

According to Wiki, her parents were anti-fascist, but I found nothing about the views of the parties she had affiliated herself with before leaving party politics behind (there appear to be several hundreds of parties in that country).

(edit small typo and add a bit to clarify the intended antecedent)

Edit a bit further to add what should be obvious from the list of "prizes." There is no evidence in the Wiki that she has lifted a finger or even written a word on behalf of most of those she says whose plights deserve more attention than the butchering of the Palestinians by the Israeli governments.

Indeed, it seems she is just another typical tribalist, whining that the world should not look at the atrocities done by her people.

:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::rofl:

Really? You're STILL harping about everyone else's hypocrisy instead of Israel's crimes against humanity? Why am I not surprised, lol?

It does not matter if there aren't demonstrations (at least demonstrations of which YOU are aware) about anything else in the entire world. The issue isn't what everyone else does, the issue is Israel committing crimes against peaceful people, stealing land by force and harming a million and a half people, most of whom are children. That you continue to try to change the subject to what everyone else is doing wrong is pretty much like a second grader telling the teacher that what he did on the playground wasn't so bad because other kids were doing worse. It doesn't work at elementary school and it certainly won't work for Israel.

It's not only what has happened recently in Sudan, Iran, Burma, The Congo, Sri Lanka, China, and Russia. The US/UK is responsible for over 100,000 deaths in Iraq. France, for its role in Rwanda's 800,000 deaths.

But there's been far more world outrage at Israel. The latest hysteria WRT the flotilla is nothing short of insanity given the role of Turkey, the IHH, and all the video evidence. A war party is sent to Gaza in the guise of a humanitarian mission and Israel is blamed for it. Even Helen Thomas' antisemitism is excused as the blame has been shifted onto the Rabbi who interviewed her.

This is insanity, whether you realize it or not.

Pilar Rahola is just pointing out the hypocrisy.

N. Korea sunk a S.Korean ship but the flotilla incident dwarfed that. The USA just took out Al Qaeda's #3 man, along with his wife, kids and other children (imagine world reaction if Israel did that) but when Israel allegedly takes out a lone terrorist in Dubai, that's where all the headlines are. Israel can't even send a relief mission into Haiti without being accused by one Jenny Tonge for stealing organs there. Meanwhile, Libya was just voted onto the UN Human Rights Council by 155 of 192 countries.

Leaders of rogue nations must be laughing their asses off.

This is an outburst of insanity and Rahola nailed it.

Your narrative, "Israel committing crimes against peaceful people, stealing land by force and harming a million and a half people, most of whom are children" is inaccurate and misleading, shows ignorance of the history of the region, and pretty much absolves the Palestinians and the surrounding arab nations of any part or responsibility in this process.

Both sides bear responsibility and bear sins. Choosing sides and creating a good vs evil paradigm makes an intelligent discussion impossible. Welcome to DU...

:eyes:

bush era fox news tactics 101

Still doesn't lessen the atrocities of your beloved israel shira

I'm not sure why comparing outrage here WRT the flotilla to the lack of outrage WRT N.Korea sinking a S.Korean ship is "bush era fox news tactics 101". Especially considering the role of Turkey, the IHH, and all the video evidence in favor of Israel.

Same goes for how the US/UK recently killed the #3 guy from Al Qaeda along with about a dozen other family members of his. That would be an "atrocity" by any standard WRT Israel but it's met with indifference by the most vocal 'critics' of Israel. I'm not sure how Israel taking out one terrorist in Dubai rates as something far more outrageous than what the US/UK did to the #3 Al Qaeda guy and his family.

The US/UK have killed over 100,000 in Iraq the past decade but Israel commits atrocities. France was behind 800,000 deaths in Rwanda but Israel's atrocities are more heinous. Nevermind what goes on in 3rd world countries, China, Russia, etc.. where the leadership cannot be held responsible for anything, as though they're all retards.

Double standards and hypocrisy.

Rahola nailed it.

And we all know the main factor behind this nonsense.

you wrote - I'm not sure why comparing outrage here WRT the flotilla to the lack of outrage WRT N.Korea sinking a S.Korean ship is "bush era fox news tactics 101". Especially considering the role of Turkey, the IHH, and all the video evidence in favor of Israel.

North Korea = repressive regime that starves its own people, is beligerant to its neighbors, constantly threatens everyone. Has a maniacial IDIOT for a leader. Sees almost every nation as a potential enemy, and sees itself under constant threat. North Korea is a pariah state, faces crippling sanctions and is effectively an outcast. There is no reasonable expectation that any critisicm of North Korea would alter Kim Jong Il's leadership in a positive way. If you ask the average South Korean - they would tell you that they want the DMZ zone lifted. They would tell you they want one Korea - not a north and a south. They would tell you that the North Koreans are their family, their relatives. The DMZ zone also protects the regime of Kim Jong Il against the hoards of koreans who want reunification.

Thank God Israel is not like North Korea - yet. Israel has faced a plethora of critisicm regarding the flotilla attack - and they deserved most of it. Do we hold Israel at a higher standard than Kim Jong Il - and North Korea? Yes we do. Absofreakinglutely. Do we expect more of Israel than North Korea? Yes we do. Don't you?

If Israel is above critisicm - it would release all raw video tape - not just edited versions that favour the Israeli talking points. Take your knocks. Accept the consequences of your actions. Make better choices in the future. Choose wiser leadership. BTW - that is what France did in regards to the Rwanda genocide. That is also why the GOP lost a generation of voters after the Iraq war. And take a good look at Blair's party....oh yeah - they are done for too.

In international sport, Israel is more of a pariah than North Korea.

If any team refuses to play another team - faces automatic disqualification.

You reasoning lacks credibility. Many nations have refused to participate for political reasons over the years. Many nations have been BANNED from participating for a variety of reasons - breaking the rules of Fifa, and even political reasons. Yugoslavia was banned. (Bosnia) Chile was banned. South Africa was banned for many years because of Apartheid - from 1966 - to 1992.

It is completely within the athletes rights to refuse to play against a team for political reasons. For example - it is completely within reason for Israel to refuse to play against Iran - should the two ever face the pitch together.

both of which declined to play Israel after May 31 of this year, as far as Turkey goes they refused to send their team to a game that was to be played in Israel and IMO Turkey may well have very legitimate concerns as to how their players would be treated in Israel, Sweden did it as a protest because of the Flotilla attack which was no matter how many ways Israel tries to justify and deny was an attack against a civilian vessel in international waters, whereas the North Korean attack against a South Korean Ship recently was a military attack against a military vessel

PRETORIA, South Africa (AP)—The world is curious to get a glimpse of the 23 men who have become North Korea’s most visible ambassadors.

They represent one of the world’s most reclusive nations and one of the last outposts of communism, where media coverage is strictly controlled by the state and few people have access to foreign Internet sites or permission to travel abroad.

And although focused on their bid to match the 1966 team’s glorious run to the quarterfinals in their only other trip to the World Cup, they are hardly robots without a sense of fun.

Behind their serious demeanor in the game, the camera-shy athletes have proved playful and personable at rest, ready with smiles and waves.

http://g.sports.yahoo.com/soccer/world-cup/news/smiling-north-koreans-win-over-south-african-hosts--fbintl_ap-wcup-hiddennorthkoreans.html

Contrast with:

ESPN's Kevin Blackstone calls for a sports boycott of Israel

Maybe a sports boycott of Israel, where sports are beloved the same as in South Africa, could help foster a round of truly meaningful peace talks between Israel and Palestinians. Maybe such a collective effort could exercise the same leverage on Israel that it did for nearly 30 years with South Africa.

http://soccer.fanhouse.com/2010/06/09/of-sports-boycotts-south-africa-and-israel/?sms_ss=twitter

No mention of North Korea in that piece.

1. According to your POV, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it's better to be a victim of Israel than N.Korea. Good people are more likely to stand up for Israeli victims than victims of N.Korea, right? Not that they care less (just seems that way) but they just feel their voice is heard if they criticize Israel. Pretty lame, right?

2. Considering the role Turkey played WRT the flotilla, why aren't they being more harshly criticized? They're not N.Korea. They're a democracy like Israel. What gives?

3. The USA, UK, and France aren't criticized as much as Israel despite committing FAR more egregious crimes/atrocities. Why is this? A recent example is the USA killing off the #3 guy in Al Qaeda along with his family. Imagine if Israel had done that considering what happened in Dubai. What gives? Can you or anyone else here honestly say that Dubai is far worse than what the US did to the Al Qaeda man's family?


In summary, N.Korea, Syria, Iran, etc... can't be criticized because it's pointless. They won't listen. Their victims get the shaft. Better to be victims of Israel. Meanwhile, the USA, UK, and France are super powers so they can't be criticized as harshly as Israel. They're free democracies but why bother, right? Democratic NATO Turkey should be spared criticism for its flotilla role because ___________? Hamas can do whatever it wants to Palestinians because they, like N.Korea, are retards who can't be held responsible for what they do to Palestinians. Those who speak up for victimized Palestinians should only speak up for them when Israel is the one doing the oppressing.

In short, Israel needs to be held to higher standards than any other country in the world. Only their victims count.

See the problem? :)

Where was Israel's critisicm of the Iraq war?

Where was Israel's condemnation of the Iraq sanctions?

Where was Israel's outrage at the US accomodating Saddam Hussein in the Iran war?

Did Israel step up and formally criticize France for the Rwanda genocide?

Why is it a race to the bottom in terms of "standards" - in that X nation has Y standards, therefore we should be able to as well - dammit it all - why can't we get away with what they get away with? That is what you are supporting. If North Korea can get away with sinking a military vessel, then why can't we kill a few citizens? It isn't fair! Waaah - poor us. Why can't we be just like North Korea?

If you don't see any problem with that, then you don't love Israel in the manner I thought you did. My mistake. You lump every single critisicm of Israel into an anti-semitic rant, or destruction of Israel slant and you do so, at your own peril. To be sure, there are those people out there who are anti-semitic, and there are those out there who do wish to see Israel destroyed - but not all of us. There are those who wish Israel had better leadership - and have voiced it so - repeatedly. And here is the kicker - we do so - not just out of concern for all the victims sitting in refugee camps, but also for all the Israeli citizenship that have suffered generations of terrorism and war, and disenfranchisement.

Perhaps you are right. It is too late. You are beyond listening. Nothing can be done about it. Netanyahu's policies are helping Hamas, but that makes no difference - without Hamas, Netanyahu wouldn't know what to do. HE was the one who sabotaged Olmert's offer - by refusing to accept it even if Abbas did. He RAN his political campaign on that.

May your days be filled with light and joy. I fear they won't, but that is now your problem. Just as Hamas must ultimately be controlled by its own people - so too it is with Israel's leaders.

....it's that there's a pathological and irrational focus on Israel's real and imaginary wrongdoings.

Israel is held to a completely different standard than any other nation on the planet, all Western nations included. Why is this so difficult to admit? I'd be delighted if Israel were held to the same standards as the USA, UK, and France.

On top of the disproportionate focus, which is antisemitism even if every criticism is justified, it's damned difficult to focus on legitimate criticism of Israel when there's so much defamation, slander, and hyperbole that has to be addressed first and foremost.

As to Israel warning the USA against the Iraq invasion...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3444393,00.html

a backlash.

And what do you you consider to be Israels 'real' (as opposed to imaginary) wrongdoings?

Why is it so difficult to admit Israel is held to a higher standard than any other nation on the planet and is criticized, condemned, and singled out FAR more than any other Western country?

Do you believe this is so - and what's the reason for it?

What do you you consider to be Israels, in your words, 'real' (as opposed to imaginary) wrongdoings?

1. I'd consider Israel's real wrongdoings to be the settlement enterprise, not doing enough to control the most extreme settlers, and in the flotilla incident - not preparing better in advance. I could go on with another 50 pages, just as I could for any other Western nation, but what would be the point? If you have particular criticisms and would like to know if I believe them to be legitimate, I'll gladly answer.

2. Within the past few weeks, the USA/UK killed the #3 guy from Al Qaeda with about 10 members of his family. The US continues drone attacks in Pakistan, killing hundreds of civilians. Years ago in Fallujah, this specific incident occured:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=324516&mesg_id=324516

It's a fact that the examples mentioned above don't receive anywhere near the kind of media attention or UN and NGO condemnation devoted to Israel for less severe actions its military takes. These would be considered atrocities and war crimes if committed by Israel. Special UN sessions would be called to order. Not so much when it's the US or UK. In fact, not even a democracy and NATO member like Turkey warrants any condemnation or criticism for its role in the flotilla incident.

So my question to you is simple....

What's with Israel being singled out and treated differently and to a higher standard than any other nation on earth? What's really going on here?

LOL Are you really that polluted with propaganda??

WHAAA, LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE....

....standard than the US, UK, and France?

If no, then how do you explain the examples from my last post above (post #38)?

Go try your shit out on some of the new folk.

You figure it's okay to interrogate me but for some reason you fear answering anything that challenges your belief system.

From post #27 above:

"Why is it so difficult to admit Israel is held to a higher standard than any other nation on the planet and is criticized, condemned, and singled out FAR more than any other Western country?"

I've no intention of 'answering' a shira statement with a question mark on the end.

Are you going to answer me, or are you going to call 'bullshit'?

We've seen this a hundred times from you shira. So wrapped are you in the propaganda of your beloved israel that you can't even get to the end of asking a single sentence question without polluting it with your spoonfed points of contention.

Laughable.

Is Israel held to a different, higher standard than the USA, UK, and France?

countries, as all first world 'democracies' should be.

Thats the trouble with proclaiming yourself to be the democratic jewel of the middle east, with the worlds most moral army. When you start imprisoning and malnourishing a million people, ignoring international condemnation and executing children for throwing rocks, decent humane human beings will hold you to the standards you proclaim to adhere to.

Those examples of the USA, UK, and France show there's an obvious double-standard and higher expectation from Israel than any other nation, including 1st world nations.

As to not holding other nations accountable, that's an admission you're for different standards. And that means the VICTIMS of other nations not held to the same standards suffer due this colonialist attitude you have that the "brown skinned" people in leadership positions should not be held to account for their actions.

That explains why folks like yourself don't speak up for Palestinian rights under Hamas, Fatah, or Lebanese leadership. You say you "care" for Palestinians but hesitate to speak up for them because 3rd world nations shouldn't be held to any expectations (or very little if that).

Pathetic.


=====

ETA:

What the USA and UK are still doing in Pakistan, Iraq, and Afghanistan is worse than whatever Israel is up to WRT Palestinians but you don't appear as outraged at the US/UK as with Israel. Why? They shouldn't be held to the same high standards?

that title.

Deal honestly with the examples from post #38 and try defending your position (that Israel is not held to a different/higher standard than the US, UK, etc.).

Try to explain why it is that when it comes to 3rd world leadership, you're silent and the victims of those regimes don't matter. As I see it, Palestinians don't get civil rights in your dream world either due to the fact that you don't want to pressure Hamas or the PLO, you fear for the lives of liberals and leftists going into the PA territories advocating for civil liberties, or you couldn't give a shit.

No freedom of speech, dissent, assembly, women or gay rights, due process. There's no religious tolerance, there's abuse of children......

I understand you're for Palestinian nationalism, but what does that mean to you when the Hamas/PLO occupation and abuse of the Palestinian population is worse than Israel's? You may say you're for Palestinian "freedom" but why aren't you for Jordanian, Yemenite, and Iranian "freedom" from tyranny?

The point is this is not a human rights issue to you, so drop the pretense.

'Activists' like yourself could care less for Palestinian refugees rotting away in camps within Lebanon, so why pretend?

Israel deserves criticism but not ritual bashing based on a pathological obsession.

....without harming Palestinians whom Hamas deliberately hides behind. Israel could completely pull out of Gaza and the W.Bank, go back to '67 borders, allow some refugees into Israel, pay billions in compensation, apologize for all they did, give up even more Israeli land in the Negev....

.....and once Hamas starts lobbing projectiles into Israel, Israel can do ___________ without inflicting damage to the Palestinian population?

Right, nothing.

And anyone harmed is by default a warcrime, massacre, atrocity....

:eyes:

...and do nothing in response.

Israeli citizens should collectively suffer (while you remain silent) for the sins of the occupation and settlement enterprise.

Nice.

You made the claim, now back it up

does but never provide an acceptable action to the rockets that Israel can take that you support and consider acceptable. With all the different actions Israel has taken in response to the rockets being met only with criticism but no alternative solutions, what else is there to think in the absence of such a statement and your current refusal to provide one. If its not true it is easily remedied by making a statement on what you think an appropriate response by Israel should be but you have refused to.
You have made many assumptions (not just on posters) on far more damning issues with far less info. In fact everyone has made deductive assumptions at one time or another but some do it more than others, some make wider leaps than other,some are more accurate than others and some do it to further their agenda due to lack of facts or in spite of the facts.




So

What do you think is an acceptable response by Israel to the rockets?

Iraq and Afghanistan. Where've you been? There are thousands of anti-war sites and organizations dedicated to stopping these occupations and attacks. Where've you been?

"These demonstrations against the war were mainly organized by anti-war organizations, many of whom had been formed in opposition to the invasion of Afghanistan. In some Arab countries demonstrations were organized by the State. Europe saw the biggest mobilization of protesters, including a rally of 3 million people in Rome, which is listed in the Guinness Book of Records as the largest ever anti-war rally.<2>

According to the French academic Dominique Reynié, between January 3 and April 12, 2003, 36 million people across the globe took part in almost 3,000 protests against the Iraq war."<3>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War

Now if it were Israel, there would be non-stop NGO reports and press releases, UN special committees and security council resolutions and at least 100x more press coverage of Israel's evil intent than what the US receives.

Why?

Because Jews are involved, right?

Maybe you just don't care enough about anything happening outside of Israel to pay attention to all the opposition to it. Maybe you're just not that concerned. You keep bringing up Jews only in every post. Are you unaware Israel is made up of more than Jewish people? As is the IDF. It's so obvious, you can't call the millions in the world against occupation and atrocites anti-semitic if you don't concentrate only on Jews, it's the only defense you have. It's sad to see.

Right?

....by NGO, the UN, the media?

If Israel did that, do you honestly believe the same level of outrage/indifference would exist?

Seriously?

We hear nightly on our news of the drone attacks. Most people here I talk to are disgusted by them. No worries, most people around the world are informed enough to have outrage for every needless death. You seem intent on squelching all opinions but your own on an Israel / Palestine board by referring to anyone who posts on it and not following your anti-semitic excuse as ...... wait for it ....... 'anti-semitic'.

Seriously.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x325140#325708

Look at the 2 specific incidents mentioned in that post, WRT the #3 Al Qaeda guy and his family being killed as well as the specific incident where US forces shot into a crowd in Fallujah 2003. These specific incidents are virtually unknown to most of Israel's more hostile critics and at best, they're indifferent to what happened. NGO's, the press, and the UN have barely mentioned these incidents. Why?

You must have missed the outrage. Again.

Just as there wasn't to this...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x301819#301820

In fact, whatever was said or done WRT those 3 incidents combined doesn't come close to the rage WRT Israel's alleged operation in Dubai.

Why the hypocrisy and double standards?

Funny, I've seen it on a few message boards. You're wrong. But keep your head in the sand, it's your only defense aside from your anti-semitic accusations.

...as well as UN and NGO condemnation.

Combined, the outrage doesn't come close to Israel's alleged action in Dubai.

What's difficult about this?

:shrug:

Delivering aid to malnourished, sick children and being killed for it should have raised the disgust level in every nation and human rights organization in the world, unfortunately, it hasn't. What's difficult about that? It reminds me of when Rachel Corrie was killed and the reaction to it. If you posted support for her family there were ten posts calling her horrible names to your one supporting her and her family. I don't know of any other country in the world an American citizen could have been killed so horribly and people actually supporting her killer. The Israeli gov't and press seems to have an excuse for every atrocity. The world has caught on. The excuses have gotten completely unbelievable.

....dwarfed coverage of the 3 incidents mentioned in previous posts committed by the USA.

Why?

If the IHH pro-Hamas anti-humanitarian flotilla was trying to deliver aid to sick and malnourished children, they had the option of dropping it all off at the Ashdod port, where it would have then been delivered to Gaza. As it was, the aid wasn't even accepted by Hamas and was rotting at the border for weeks before the UN decided to deliver it into Gaza against the will of Hamas.

Any real humanitarian peace activist would be appalled at the IHH warmongering thugs who hijacked the Marmara in order to help Iran get arms to Hamas.

As for Rachel Corrie, this video shows her death wasn't deliberate. She wasted her life playing chicken trying to defend Hamas weapons smuggling tunnels.
http://www.stoptheism.com/

It's disgusting to exaggerate Israeli actions in order to make propaganda for Iran and Hamas (to portray Jews as bloodthirsty and heartless murderers of innocents in order to incite anti Jew acts of hatred). Worse is that all this slanderous and malicious disinformation provokes more outrage than the combined 3 incidents I cited above.

========

Just curious, what do you think of Colonel Kemp's statements here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x301819#326291

“I think – I would say that from my knowledge of the IDF and from the extent to which I have been following the current operation, I don’t think there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza."

Is he lying?

"It's disgusting to exaggerate Israeli actions"

Is there any atrocity you won't excuse by your beloved israel?

You're on a liberal board constantly claiming victimitation of the people creating the victims. Its actually moving from laughable to downright pathetic at this stage.

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been shot once in the back of the head, once in the face, twice in the leg and once in the back?

If I admit I was mistaken and correct myself, how is it slander?

You didn't mistakenly get anything mixed up. You bought into the propaganda from a disreptuable source...

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american-killed-gaza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848

What the reality shows, like the video evidence, is that there was vicious close-quarter fighting and that the teenager's death can in no way be declared an 'execution'.

You have as much proof for an execution as I do of the IDF shooting him in a crossfire - since he was shot in the front and back.

In other words, your slanderous claim of an 'execution' is baseless.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/israeli-defense-forces-ex_b_600282.html
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/6/3/872666/-IDF-Commandos-Shot-American-Peace-Activist-Furkan-Dogan-3-Times-in-Head-Killing-Him

Are you going to deny again that you repeated a false, slanderous report?

Unless you're claiming I knowingly made a false statement i.e. lied?

Isn't internet anonymity a wonderful thing for you shira. Accusations, defamation and finger pointing without any consequences whatsoever. Just a shame you use DU as the vehicle for your vitriol.

Your charges of anti-semitism for criticising the atrocities carried out by israel are little more than filth.

I don't think so

That would be labeled a warcrime, massacre, execution by the UN and major NGO's if Israel was behind it. It would receive all kinds of negative press and OP-EDs. At least in Dubai one lone terrorist was taken out, but here a bad guy and his whole family being "murdered" by "awful" US forces barely merits condemnation?

What's going on?

No obfuscation.

makes for such a good distraction from real issues doesn't it? Kind of like Rabbi Nessenoff holding on to his "bombshell" video for an entire week until right about the time the survivors of Mavi Mamara started to get their story out, I would really love to know what kind of coordination took place behind the scenes during that week to make sure that video was web hit it was

Therefore it appears that those who defame, dehumanize, and slander aren't interested at all in Israel responding to legitimate criticism. Why give Israel's leaders an excuse to avoid legitimate criticism?

As to this 'conspiracy' WRT Rabbi Nessenoff, are you serious? :tinfoilhat:

but as to proof of anything but the ProIsrael's "look over there" way of dealing is weak at best

now as to Nessenoff why did he wait from May 27 till June 3 to post to youtube, it was just a coincidence right?

You can't really expect Netanyahu to react to legitimate criticism when there's so much disinformation, slander, and defamation out there - can you? Clean up the message, remove the hate, hyperbole, and exaggeration, and you should expect reasonable people to agree and join you.

As to Nessenoff, etc... I think you see Zionist conspiracies everywhere. Besides constantly accusing Israel of controlling Egyptian border policy WRT Hamas, you've accused me of editing WIKI articles in order to bolster my arguments here.

:tinfoilhat:

yeah I guess it is and you have still failed to answer a few questions from the few days such as
are you in favor of Israel using deadly force against the Lebanese ship Miriam?

Perhaps you will be more willing to answer here on your thread

Israel needs to feed that "we are always the victim" psyche to avoid reality. Hearing Israel complain that "they do it too" is like listening to Al Capone complain that Lucky Lucciano is a gangster.

BTW, to the Dershman fans in I/P, how do you all feel about your god endorsing a Republican?

and democracies are supposed to be able to sway depending on public opinion, on pressure from allied states. Democratic governments are supposed to listen to protesters, dictators give us no such illusions.

And because our money funds these actions.

Why would you want to equate yourself with a dictatorship of a terrorist organization? What kind of argument is that?

Democracies like the USA, UK, and France are responsible in the last 2 decades for bad things magnitudes worse than anything Israel has done and there's nowhere near the outrage for that in the UN, media, or NGO's. Doing and saying nothing about what happens under dictatorships only hurts the victims.

It's obvious what's happening.

Israel is held to a different and higher standard than any other nation on the planet, including all Western democracies. As much as some people say they care about Palestinians, they're indifferent to Palestinian suffering under Arab leadership, whether Hamas, Fatah, or with respect to refugees, Lebanon.

The world is basically as indifferent to Palestinian suffering (unless Israel is the oppressor) as it is with Arab suffering in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Yemen. The world is largely silent now - comparatively speaking - with respect to US and UK actions in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq.

We all know what's going on here. This latest flotilla episode with all the hypocrisy and disinformation is the proof.

And it's disgusting.

I mean, you're absolutely right, people should be more up in arms about all kinds of abuses all over the world, but you can't justify anything by saying that.

If I accept your premise, which I'm not sure I do, for just a moment, maybe people hold Israel to a higher standard because they expect more. We're always hearing what a beacon of hope it is. I've always been an admirer of the great tradition of secular judaism, the moral philosophy, the progressivism. But these are not represented in the actions of the Israeli government. It's dissapointing. It turned out to be just another beligerent bully on the world stage. As if we needed another.

Also, I seem to remember the protests when the US made clear it was going into Iraq. It was far from silent. There were millions of people out on the streets all over the world. The outrage from the flotilla incident will quiet down eventually, once the media's bored with it.

I just think that it hurts Israel's cause to say "well, we're not as bad as so-and-so, why are you hating on us?"

If the USA, UK, or France had the same neighbors as Israel or the same issues, the surrounding area would've been a parking lot decades ago. It's disingenuous to argue that Israel's government under Rightwing leadership is the main cause of outrage at Israel. Most of Israel's 62 years were under the control of the leftist Labour government. Like any imperfect democracy, Israel makes mistakes and deserves its fair share of criticism but beyond that? No, we know what's going on. The disproportionate focus, outrage, hypocrisy, disinformation, and slander from the flotilla incident proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the same insanity that led to events leading up to Israel's creation is once again rearing its ugly head. Israel's harshest defamers aren't even pretending anymore and are emboldened to keep it up.

with near-, and sometimes actual, civil war in a region under its jurisdiction. With continual battles between Protestant and Catholic terrorists in Northern Ireland. With terrorism frequently bursting out on the mainland as a result. With the Prime Minister and much of her government nearly being blown up in 1983.

We certainly did not handle the situation in an ideal fashion (e.g. see the recent report on Bloody Sunday) but we most certainly did not turn any part of Ireland into a parking lot! Even under the far-from-pacifist Thatcher, who had herself narrowly escaped death at the hands of terrorists. (N.b. I am referring here to fairly recent history. Earlier English policy toward Ireland was of course much more brutal - and helped to turn the situation into the disaster that it was until recently. But in recent history, England did *not* bomb Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland, or use extreme military force against these places.)

Israel should certainly not be treated as uniquely evil, or as the source of all problems in the Middle East, let alone elsewhere. I have often pointed out our own sins when it is suggested that we should boycott Israel. But Israel should also not be treated as uniquely virtuous, or as the only country that has ever had a problem with terrorism on or within its borders.

Some members are antisemitic toward Israel. Some are simply politically hostile to Israel. Some don't care. Some are for Israel, but not that many.

For the rest, I agree with Aranthus' post about the UN.

I don't think that their letting the USA and UK get away with the Iraq war (which is shameful of them) is due to any particular prejudice *for* us; far from it, in fact. It is that the USA, and we by association with them, have a lot of power. The USA is bigger than Israel, and bigger than most of the countries that might criticize it.

At any rate, a threat about the UN as such might be interesting; but that wasn't the topic of the OP. The OP claimed falsely that there are no demonstrations, no opposition, etc. to injustices other than those of Israel, and named some, about which there is plenty of opposition. And what bothers me is that such allegations are self-fulfilling: if people think that there are no protests or voices against (say) oppression of women in Iran, then they won't find out about them and support them. Not everything in this world is about Israel, one way or another. We should not deflect from struggles against the world's evils by being only interested in Israel's misdeeds. But similarly, we should not deflect from struggles against the world's evils by seeing them (or refusing to see them) only in a context of how they compare with criticisms of Israel.

Israel cannot even be a member in its own regional group and that makes them the only country in the world automatically excluded from the UNHRC. If that's not 'apartheid', nothing is.

Add the fact that more resolutions have been passed against Israel than many serial human rights abusers put together - and FAR more than the next country after them - and there's no question the UN is hostile to Israel due to it being the Jew among nations. That said, the UN's bigotry against Israel is minimized in nearly all media reports against Israel that involves UN decisions. Many NGO's aren't that much better.

As to the OP, Rahola is basically correct. There may not be total silence WRT other actions committed by other nations, but comparatively speaking to Israel a case can be made for that argument. The sum total of abuses and atrocities occuring the last decade in the Congo, Sudan, Burma, Libya, Cuba, China, and Saudi Arabia don't merit as much attention COMBINED than the attention paid to Israel in the UN. Neither does all US/UK action in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq combined.

The UN couldn't get away with that without media and NGO complicity. Compare the number of rallies against the above nations combined to those against Israel. It's way out of proportion.

Neither could there possibly be as much insane, grotesque commentary, whether in terms of volume or disinformation, against Israel regarding the flotilla incident w/o certain Media and NGO's....which then influence the UN to act on those reports.

Bigotry and antisemitism has to be, if not the only reason, then at least the main reason behind all this.

======

Here's a related article that complements Rahola's...

In the Trenches: To The Free Gaza Movement
http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/harris/entry/to_the_free_gaza_movement

as we are looking it from totally different points of view.

I simply do not think of people's reactions to Israel, for or against, as such as THE central issue in the world. The Israel/Palestine issue is one of the things that I am very interested in, but I'm interested in a number of other world issues too. If there were a separate 'Iran' forum, I would certainly join that too.

I think that it is very misleading to look at abuses in the world through an 'Israel' lense. Either way. Other countries' wars are not due to the 'Zionists'; even in the Middle East, Israel is not the sole threat to peace; and America's lack of single-payer health care is not due to the costs of the financial aid that it gives to Israel. Such theories deflect from the real reasons for such problems, and, though not necessarily caused by personal antisemitism in those who hold them, do stem ultimately from antisemitic theories about the world. And should be opposed whenever observed.

However, it also isn't the case that China's authoritarian regime and its occupation of Tibet; the human rights abuses in Iran or Burma; the bloodbaths in Congo and Darfur; the gender apartheid of Saudi Arabia; or America's and Britain's disastrous and illegal war in Iraq are somehow mainly the responsibility of people in general or the UN in particular only caring about Israeli abuses. Nor does it mean that they are mainly important as symbols of the world's perceived negativity toward Israel, or that the attempts by human rights organizations or pressure groups to protest these abuses should be ignored or rejected, because the latter are seen as disproportionately or 'only' critical of Israel. To see it in these terms seems to reflect a form of xenophobic-isolationism common in Israel and in my view ultimately disastrous to Israel, and in any case not appropriate to analysis of the world in general.

The world is simply not all about Israel, or all about pro-Israelis, or all about anti-Israelis.

Nor is every group that is critical of Israel, somehow related to every other group that is critical of Israel. The 'Free Gaza' movement is a small group that has nothing to do with the UN.

Hamas are a far-RW crap government that are quite prepared to kill Israeli civilians (and others like non-Israeli migrant workers who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time). Indeed, they have probably killed more Palestinians than Israelis, and IMO any progressive or pro-Palestinian organization *should* agree that they are toxic. However, their actions don't justify absolutely anything that Israel may do, and *certainly* it should never be implied that things like the blockade or OCL are somehow really good for the Palestinians because they undermine Hamas (which they don't in any case). Which I have seen implied in some of the articles that you have posted on the subject. This sort of 'cruel to be kind' attitude is very reminiscent of British imperial attitudes to their subjects, and more recently of the supposed 'liberation' of Iraq from Saddam.

Of course, Israel's actions don't justify Hamas either!

An American citizen died and the US reaction was zilch.

If the reaction to the flotilla incident seems disproportionate to you, I would offer that it is not an isolated incident. Since the attacks on Gaza more and more people have started to see that the situation of the Palestinians is really an untenable one. More and more people want to see this end, and then they see the images we saw of commandos boarding an aid ship and shooting it up, and the announcements of more settlement, and they start to think that Israel's heart isn't in this.

They are mad because it seems that chances for peace are passed up on both sides, and that the ally Israel is not acting in good faith.

There has been a long build up to this point.

And maybe you're right. Maybe it is disproportionate. Israel is a unique state in many ways, and there are always the racists. But that shouldn't change the issue. This whole discussion is meant to deflect from the Israeli government's actions, to somehow diminish it's crimes.

...as well as the role of the IHH. The UN, as usual, wants an investigation into Israel's actions and demands nothing from Turkey or the IHH. This incident was also largely reported and denounced as though all the video and audio evidence showing what really happened didn't exist. Not that there shouldn't be any questions or criticism of Israel's handling of the situation, but come on now.

It's insane. Now what's the rational explanation for it?

This was happening before Gaza. The Jenin "massacre" of 2002 comes to mind. But even in the case of Gaza, the disinformation campaign was incredible, as Hamas deliberately hiding behind its citizens was ignored and Israel was accused of deliberately targeting civilians despite the ratio of civilians to combatants killed being better than NATO standards.

In all incidents mentioned above, Israel's actions are exaggerated, their enemies' provocations and actions ignored, and the worst is assumed of Israel's intentions.

Reeks of the ancient blood libel against Jews that led to one pogrom after another.

I'd be delighted if you had a better explanation than antisemitism being the primary reason behind all this irrational hyper-criticism. Note that there's not just a disproportionate focus on Israel's REAL actions (in comparison to Western nations too) but also those IMAGINED via sophistry, propaganda, and slander.

Here is some last-minute advice to the group of women who are planning to organize another aid ship to break the Israeli naval blockade on the Gaza Strip: Do not forget to wear the hijab and cover other parts of your body before you arrive at the Hamas-controlled area. And make sure that none of you is seen laughing in public.

Otherwise, you are likely to meet the same fate as other Palestinian women who have been physically and verbally abused by fundamentalist Muslims in the Gaza Strip.

Some women in the Gaza Strip have had acid splashed in their faces for allegedly being dressed "immodestly" or for being seen in public with a male who is not a husband, father, brother or son.

Just recently, Hamas's Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice stopped female journalist Asthma al-Ghul under the pretext that she came to the beach dressed "immodestly" and was seen laughing in public.

"They accused me of laughing loudly while swimming with my friend, and for failing to wear a hijab," she told a human rights organization in the Gaza Strip. "They also wanted to know the identity of the people who were swimming with me at the beach and whether they were relatives of mine."

This incident came only days after a Hamas judge ordered all female lawyers appearing in court to wear headscarves and a long, dark colored clock under their black robes.

By seeking to help Hamas, the women who are planning to sail to the Gaza Strip are in fact encouraging the fundamentalist movement to continue oppressing Palestinian women living there.

Wouldn't it have been better and more helpful had the same group of female activists launched a campaign to promote women's rights under Hamas? Or to protest against the severe restrictions imposed by Hamas on all women, including the right to stroll along the beach alone or to wear a swim suit?

Moreover, it is ironic (and sad) that some of the women who are behind the new flotilla adventure come from Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Kuwait - countries that not only have killed Palestinians, but also continue to oppress them and impose severe restrictions on them.

more...
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1380/breaking-israel-naval-blockade

-- and if we are, indeed, truly liberal then we must not keep silent any longer about the suffering undergone by women and gays in the Muslim World, nor should we participate in that unqiue form of condescension that excuses misogyny and homophobia on the basis of "differing cultural values."

Splashing someone's face with acid for the "crime" of being seen in public with the wrong man is an act of barbarity that no amount of "cultural relativism" can explain away.

equating some with all, the only "liberal" position would be to condemn (and suppress and slaughter) not only all Muslims, but all varieties of Christians, Animists, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, ad nauseam. Strange mind you have. There are good and decent people among all those categories a well. Does your 'reasoning' therefore also conclude that all actions by any within those groups should be supported?

Interesting that your first post appears here. Care to say what brought you to DU?

(edit to revise and extend.)

...And I suppose if I had to point to a single, dominant thing that brought me over to DU it would be my participation (with my present SO) in women’s rights groups such as NOW, NARAL and the Feminist Majority and, to a significant but lesser degree, in various gay, lesbian & transgender rights organizations such as The Task Force.

So at the risk of oversimplifying, I'd say that joining DU struck me as being a natural, logical outgrowth of my concern (read: anxiety) over the status of women, gays and lesbians in North America and, increasingly, in the world beyond our borders.

So what about yourself? What motivated you to join DU and how are you enjoying it so far?

Oh and before I forget, and in the interest of clarity, I just need to ask you where, specifically, you saw me equating “some with all” in my previous post or endorsing (holy crap!) the “slaughter” of anyone? Am I missing something, Cons? Could you perhaps have conflated my post with someone else’s? (I've made that same mistake numerous times on other boards)

Because naturally, my outrage is directed not at one single population in toto...but at oppressive government POLICY.

After all, just as no one believes that every white South African favored apartheid, or that every American resisted granting women the right to vote until 1920, or that every caucasian fought against the according of full civil liberties to blacks until the mid-1960s, so it remains true that these conditions prevailed because they were, at the end of the day, not merely customary but also legal.

They were enshrined government POLICY.

And they remained that way until enough of the population became fed up with them and raised their voice in protest.

Once again, liberals around the world SPECIFICALLY TARGETED South Africa when that despotic regime was denying equal treatment to blacks (my first demonstration was at a four-day “Free South Africa” sit-in at my college back in 1989)… all of which raises the question of where, oh where, is the similar chorus of outrage against Saudi Arabia and other LEGALLY misogynistic, anti-gay countries?

Where are the hundreds of boycotts and protests and demonstrations...on the streets, in the marketplace, on campuses around the world...against Saudi Arabia?

After all, as I am typing these words, Saudi women are living in conditions which closely resemble apartheid: They cannot drive. They cannot vote. They cannot appear in court and may be divorced from their husbands via brief verbal declarations but find it difficult to obtain divorce themselves.

Fathers are allowed to marry off their ten-year-old daughters. Members of the hai’a -- the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (real title!!!) -- patrol the streets ensuring that ikhtilat, or "the mixing of the sexes," does not occur.

This madness is going on right now, and that's just against the women. The official treatment of gays in that country (and in similar regimes around the globe) requires another post for another time.

snip...



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3912144,00.html