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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 01:58 AM
Original message
Israel drives on with Palestinian demolitions
JERUSALEM // Israel’s policy of home demolitions has accelerated in recent days, with two houses destroyed yesterday in the West Bank and another six in East Jerusalem on Tuesday. In all, Israel has demolished more than two dozen Palestinian homes since the beginning of the year, according to the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (Icahd) leaving an estimated 130 people homeless. In occupied East Jerusalem, the home demolitions policy is part of what Palestinians and activists say is a larger scheme to further the “Judaisation” of the city at the expense of its Palestinian residents.
...
Mr Netanyahu – under pressure not to extend a moratorium on construction in West Bank settlements that does not include East Jerusalem and runs out in September – is keen to show his right-wing constituency that Israel answers to no one over Jerusalem. The Israeli government maintains that all of Jerusalem be Israel’s “eternal, undivided capital”. “Israel can’t give the impression that it is vulnerable to pressure,” said Jeff Halper of Icahd.

He stressed that when the US reaction to house demolitions was to issue a mild verbal rebuke – on Tuesday the US State Department called them “not helpful” – it amounted to “a green light”. As for the people left homeless, “who cares about them”, said Mr Halper. “They are the least of the considerations.”
...
The Israeli authorities say the house was demolished because it was built without a permit, a fact Mrs al Rajabi does not dispute. That the demolition of homes in occupied territory is considered illegal under international law does not appear to figure in Israeli calculations. Israel unilaterally annexed East Jerusalem after occupying it in 1967, an annexation not recognised by any country. The al Rajabis had tried to get a permit, but the cost and time involved rendered such an endeavour prohibitive, Mrs al Rajabi said, and makes it all but impossible for Palestinians in general to be able to afford to build legal housing.
...
“The Israelis want us out,” said Mrs al Rajabi. “We have no rights in the city, and there is no justice for us because we are Palestinian.”

From: http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100715/FOREIGN/707159846/1041/sport

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Loudmxr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Drive the Irish out! Drive the Irish out!
It seems everyday I see more parallels between what the Israelis are doing and what the British did to the Irish over the centuries and what the Brits also did in our country before it was a country. They are behaving like an imperialist country with a divine mandate to take what belongs others for their own.

The values of my two nationalities (Irish and American) shriek in horror!!

BTW I wasn't too fond of our own Manifest Destiny program but that is another discussion.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Considering the nature of the '67 war...
how many of you would agree that the arab nations would give Israeli land back that they might(wanted to)have conquered? They might have won that war.

Make a massive attack on a country, lose, and now you want Israel to pay for your losses?

Maybe the 'Great Blowhards' amongst the attackers should have thought the war through before they attacked. Why should Israel give back any land gained by that '67 war?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. so you are advocating the single-state solution?
Edited on Tue Jul-27-10 05:19 AM by Douglas Carpenter
BTW: it was actually Israel that attacked first. I don't know of anyone who disputes that. But I will grant that neither Israel or the Arab countries led by Jamal Abdul Nasser of Egypt were blameless and the increasingly heated rhetoric of Nasser and others - not doubt played a major role in leading to the outbreak of war. Still there was a long, long history that led up to the 67 war.

Still, if Israel holds on to all the land it occupied since June 1967 what does it do with the millions of Palestinian who live in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem? Grant them citizenship, equal rights and voting rights? Most of them were not yet born in 1967.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Single state is about the only viable solution left
Returning to the original borders prior to the attack of the arab nations would not be a bad thing either
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Just because they were not yet born then, and they were not part
of the nations that (would have) attacked Israel is no reason why they shouldn't be punished for it. They are Arabs after all. Every single Arab bears the guilt for everything bad that any other Arab has ever done. Don't you understand how that works?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. Although the Germans don't, for some reason.
Edited on Fri Jul-30-10 10:46 PM by Ken Burch
The Israeli government let them off the hook years ago.

Anyone arguing that Palestinians are WORSE than the Germans were has her or his work cut out for them.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Did the Arab residents of Jerusalem launch an attack against Israel?
Or is it just that "them Ayrabs is all exactly the same, you seen one you seen 'em all"?
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. In 1967? Sort of.
At least Jordan did, which was occupying East Jerusalem.

But since Israel values EJ very differently than the rest of the OPT the Arab people living there are treated according to different rules. Israel considers EJ to be part of Israel. So Palestinians living there are treated more like legal aliens than naturalized citizens. Though the Arab residents of EJ have the option of applying to become Israeli citizens, for whatever that is worth.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. The most recent scholarship suggests that the Arabs were actually panicked into attacking
by disinformation from the USSR. The Soviets falsely implied that Israel was planning nuclear strikes against the Arab world(in the hopes that the Arabs would wipe Israel out in time for the celebrations of the fiftieth anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution in 1967).

It's not clear that the Arabs were interested in attacking Israel for any other reason. They'd refrained from doing that since 1956, for one thing.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. But these aren't the same people who attacked Israel in '67.
These people are Palestinians who were living in land occupied by the states who attacked Israel in '67. Israel wouldn't be giving the land back to the Arab states but to the Palestinians so they could finally have their own state.

Besides, Israel already gave back almost all of the land that it DID occupy from attacking Arab states so it clearly isn't opposed to doing that. Egypt got back all of its land. Lebanon got most. Jordan gave up on ever getting back the WB which is just as well.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. And, if the Jordanian offensive had succeeded, Palestinians wouldn't have gained anything.
They'd have continued to live under Jordanian occupation, a state of affairs(while less brutal than the later Israeli Occupation, especially since the Jordanians didn't set up hundreds of Hashemite settlements in the West Bank or deprive the Palestinians of water)was hardly what Palestinians wanted(if they had wanted that, they wouldn't have set up the PLO in 1964, when most of those who hadn't been dispossed in 1948 were living under Jordanian rather than Israeli occupation).
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. The Palestinians aren't to blame for the other Arab countries attacking
There is a huge difference between the interests of the Palestinians and that of the other Arab countries.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. Why does no one call this by it's proper name?
Ethnic cleansing.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Because it isn't.
Keep things in perspective here. There are several million Palestinians living in the OPT. Israel has demolished 24 houses in the past 7 months, and the inhabitants weren't expelled from any territory. That hardly amounts to ethnic cleansing.

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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Ethnic cleansing by a thousand cuts is perhaps more apt
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Not really...
The Palestinian's population has been steadily increasing everywhere they live. Discrimination would be an appropriate word. Ethnic cleansing though... it just makes no sense. No one has been expelled from the territory in question. Knocking down two dozen houses is not ethnic cleansing by any stretch of the imagination.
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delad Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. it isn't just 2 dozen houses though, is it?
According to Amnesty International there have been almost 200 demolitions in the West Bank this year alone

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/israel-intensifies-west-bank-palestinian-home-demolitions-2010-07-21

It isn't 2 dozen houses though, it is 100s of demolitions, refusal to grant building permits, systemic prejudice/racism, outright land theft, use of violence against palestinians/bedouins/Israeli arabs without legal recourse, etc. It is the layering of these acts, one upon the other, which convinces many that this is a slow-motion, squeezed from all sides form of ethnic cleansing.

I don't think it is ethnic cleansing, i think it is something equally abhorrent. The state has abrogated the rights of the minority. It is policy which informs the victims that they are subhuman and have no legitimate defence from the state. In effect, what the state of Israel is saying is, we are the state, we have control and you cannot resist.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Do you believe any Israeli has the right to build a home anywhere on state property within Israel?
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 02:45 PM by shira
Same question WRT the W.Bank - is it okay for any Palestinian there to build wherever he or she sees fit?

Just curious.

If it's "their land", individuals can build anywhere?

I say everyone - Jew, Arab, or otherwise - needs permits to build. One standard for all. What's legal/illegal for Jews is the same for Arabs and vice-versa.

====================================

Also, what do you think of this...

Illegal Arab Building in Israel's South
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfAs_bTtbF0

and this...

Illegal Construction in Jerusalem
http://www.jcpa.org/jlmbldg.htm

In addition, there's this recent article about 100,000 illegal Arab buildings within Israel....
http://www.haaretz.com/news/lieberman-israel-must-fight-illegal-arab-construction-1.1601

1. Do you have a problem with any of this? :shrug:
2. Do you realize that on average, for every illegal Arab home Israel destroys, there are more than 10x that amount allowed to remain?

=====================================

Finally, there's this doozy...

Study shows Israeli Supreme Court biased on Arab-Israel land issues
http://www.examiner.com/x-7095-NY-Israel-Conflict-Examiner~y2010m7d18-Study-shows-Israeli-Supreme-Court-biased-on-ArabIsrael-land-issues

=====================================

It appears Israeli legal decisions and police/military actions against illegal construction of homes favors Arabs over Jews.

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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. So it's not ethnic cleansing, its just knocking down their houses till they move
Disgusting.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Not really. There are many more illegal Arab homes that remain standing than are destroyed.
Edited on Thu Jul-29-10 03:52 PM by shira
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3925135,00.html

Shomron Regional Council Head Gershon Mesika noted, "This isn't Barak. It’s Netanyahu. He's the one behind the useless and despicable demolition of a house built by a young couple who spent all their savings on it, while hundreds of illegal Arab houses are being built in the neighboring villages. We shall rebuild the house."


That article is just from this week. There's plenty more saying the same thing that can be googled.

More Jewish homes are razed than Arab homes.
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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Do you think people around here are idiots?
In the first few topics in I/P theres reports of a bedouin village demolished, arab homes razed and a muslim building having its residents forced out.

Do you enjoy excusing this filth?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. The inclusion of fact and context isn't filth
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. She LIVES to excuse this filth.
That's why I've got her on ignore.
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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Yep. And she doesn't even realise that cheerleading such inhumanity and cruelty
on a liberal board contributes to the further distancing from israel and its supporters, and is ultimately a bigger threat than 100,000 hamas rockets.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Please point me to where I "cheerleaded" the destruction of homes. Also, here's a short video..
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 02:23 PM by shira
Illegal Arab Building in Israel's South
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfAs_bTtbF0

And here's a recent article WRT 100,000 illegal Arab buildings in Israel...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/lieberman-israel-must-fight-illegal-arab-construction-1.1601

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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. How can they be illegal on their own land????
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 10:10 AM by polly7
That's like saying American Indians on the reserve would be there illegally because new oil is discovered in the middle of their land. You have a very skewed way of looking at the situation.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story572.html

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story1261.html
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Just curious as to what you think about post #28. Thanks. N/T
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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Just curious as to why you think its appropriate to post asking people what they think
about your other post?

:)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I believe it's relevant to her question of people building on "their own" land. N/T
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 02:32 PM by shira
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. del.
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 02:43 PM by polly7
If he / she can't ask the question or post the comment her / himself, then I don't see the need to go looking for it.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. You say it's "their own land". So here are some questions for you...
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 02:48 PM by shira
Do you believe any Israeli has the right to build a home anywhere on state property within Israel?

Same question WRT the W.Bank - is it okay for any Palestinian there to build wherever he or she sees fit?

Just curious.

If it's "their land", individuals can build anywhere?

I say everyone - Jew, Arab, or otherwise - needs permits to build. One standard for all. What's legal/illegal for Jews is the same for Arabs and vice-versa.

====================================

Also, what do you think of this...

Illegal Arab Building in Israel's South
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfAs_bTtbF0

and this...

Illegal Construction in Jerusalem
http://www.jcpa.org/jlmbldg.htm

In addition, there's this recent article about 100,000 illegal Arab buildings within Israel....
http://www.haaretz.com/news/lieberman-israel-must-fight...

1. Do you have a problem with any of this?
2. Do you realize that on average, for every illegal Arab home Israel destroys, there are more than 10x that amount allowed to remain?

=====================================

Finally, there's this doozy...

Study shows Israeli Supreme Court biased on Arab-Israel land issues
http://www.examiner.com/x-7095-NY-Israel-Conflict-Exami...

=====================================

It appears Israeli legal decisions and police/military actions against illegal construction of homes favors Arabs over Jews.
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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. LOL! The broken record flogs the dead horse one again....
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. I thought if I re-wrote #28 for her, she'd respond to it.
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 03:29 PM by shira
Also, you haven't shown me where I "cheerleaded" the destruction of Arab homes.

I'm waiting.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. You trying to imply the Israelis and Palestinians are somehow on
on even playing field is funny. For every 1 demolished, the 10 not demolished, somehow showing some kind of bias??? That's hilarious. Yes, Palestinians should be able to build anywhere they choose on their own land, period. I didn't realize the post you were pointing me to go look for was your own, I definitely wouldn't have gone looking. You've already shown me, with all your name-calling towards me, that you have no interest in real debate. Please don't do that again.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I expect a more thorough response from someone with such strong opinions on the matter. N/T
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 03:36 PM by shira
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I respond to what interests me.
I made the mistake of replying the first time, had I known it was just another look over there thing I wouldn't have responded the second time. But ............ 'they left 10!'. That is so lame.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Sorry, but ethnic cleansing is an appropriate word...
See, population increases have zero to do with whether ethnic cleansing is happening or not. What you said is like someone saying there was no ethnic cleansing of Iraqi Kurds because the Kurd's population has been increasing everywhere they live. Also, while expulsion from territory can be part of ethnic cleansing, ethnic cleansing can happen without any expulsions (for example, the ethnic cleansing of indigenous Australians during the 20th century was done with not one single expulsion from Australia). Though I think you'll find Israel has definately expelled Palestinians from territory it occupies, including East Jerusalem, where Palestinians who leave, even for a few weeks aren't allowed to return. And there's been far more than two dozen houses demolished over the years by Israel from what I recall.

What Israel has done to the Palestinians over many decades is imo a low-level ethnic cleansing. I know you haven't done this, but I do find it a bit strange that I've seen people who get all up in arms and insist what Israel has done to the Palestinians isn't ethnic cleansing, but have turned around and described the removal of Israeli settlers from Gaza by Israel to be ethnic cleansing. And not quite as silly, but still right up there in the silly stakes is claiming that ethnic cleansing can't be happening coz there's still lots of Arab homes standing. That's just beyond bizarre, imo...

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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Yes, it is. When you factor in the
deaths, imprisonment, demolitions, land.. orchard.. farm thefts, blockades, the ever-expanding wall ...... all with one purpose only, I absolutely consider it ethnic cleansing. Past Israeli leaders have stated it as their goal, the members of the Security Council on the UN who serve Israel for their own best interests and veto every resolution against Israeli atrocities, wink at it ....... Israel is free to cleanse as many as it likes, no matter the suffering. Hopefully the world isn't buying all the crap excuses for it anymore and something eventually will be done.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
39. An update. Israeli, international Human Rights help Palestinians rebuild
some of the demolished homes.

Long live the compassion and humanity of those who, like Rachel Corrie, continue to value basic human decency toward one another and simple justice, over the interests and objectives of the powerful forces which violate them and intensify the suffering of oppressed people.

From http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/07/201073117391534572.html . More (news video) at that site.

Israel has demolished more than 20,000 Palestinian homes in occupied East Jerusalem since 1967.

And some residents have had their houses torn down multiple times.

Al Jazeera's Jacky Rowland reports from occupied East Jerusalem on how a small group of Israeli and international activists are helping rebuild Palestinian homes that have been repeatedly demolished.

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