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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:28 PM
Original message
Israel's fence of peace
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/328/oped/Israel_s_fence_of_peace+.shtml

IT TAKES about 10 minutes to walk from Coolidge Corner in Brookline to Kenmore Square in Boston. Why is this important? Because it takes the same amount of time for a Palestinian terrorist to walk from Kalkilya in the West Bank to Kfar Saba in Israel. Nothing can stop one from walking from Brookline to Boston; so too, nothing can stop a Palestinian terrorist from walking from the West Bank to Israel. Unfortunately, it's as easy as it sounds.

SNIP

One reason for this gap is the huge difference between aloof theoretical debate and the reality on the ground. While many pay lip service and condemn terrorism, Israelis are the ones who suffer the deadly consequences. The security fence is a defensive and nonlethal measure. It has only one goal: to prevent terrorism. The end of terrorism would render the security fence unnecessary. Fences can be built and torn down, but human lives are irreplaceable.

Some say that the fence is a barrier to peace. In fact, it is just the opposite. The lack of a fence between Israel and the West Bank has made it possible for Hamas and Islamic Jihad to hold the peace process hostage. Each time political progress was made, it was derailed by deadly attacks carried out by these terrorists. The visit of General Anthony Zinni and the coinciding deadly attack on the Sbarro Pizzeria, which killed 15 Israelis in Jerusalem, are a case in point. Building a fence will cause a sharp decline in the number of such attacks and give leaders more latitude to continue peace negotiations. It will hinder the ability of terrorists to derail the peace process, thus making the peace process more resilient.

Another argument against the fence claims that it will be ineffective, but in fact the fence's effectiveness has been tested and proven. Over the past three years, only one out of the 124 suicide attacks came from Gaza, despite the fact that Gaza is the major stronghold of Palestinian terrorism. The reason why is painfully obvious: In Gaza there is a security fence, while in the West Bank there is none. Photos in the media and elsewhere depict the fence as a tall concrete wall. However, 94 percent is actually just a chain-link fence, most of it within the Green Line. The portions made up of a concrete wall are adjacent to Israel's main highway, where any minor threat could bring the country to a halt.

....................................................................


GREAT ARTICLE


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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. It is not a fence of peace. It is a fence of theft
and will be so long as it is not on the green line.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'M SORRY...
Did you read the article??
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. agree - and it's not a fence it's a WALL

nt
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. It's both
Depends on where you mean. Some places it is a real wall, others a fence.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. So many ridiculous assertions in this article it is pathetic.
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 12:37 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
For example:

Some claim that the fence is an Israeli attempt to annex part of the West Bank. This is a bizarre accusation. It has been Israel's policy in the past 36 years not to annex the territories. Suggesting that Israel is now attempting to change that policy through such partial measures is absurd.


What is absurd is the idea that if I say I don't want your things while I'm stealing them, then I'm not a thief.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Theft
I see nothing stolen here. The article clears up many misconceptions, and written by an Israeli ambassador. Excellent.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. An Israeli ambassador
is as an objective source as a PR campaign in elections...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Bluesoul....your post of the day...
:toast:

:yourock:
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thank you, although
nothing beats the claim that a wall is a fence and that Israel never stole any land from anyone...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. It was a damn fine post...
And one I agree totally with. Glad to see for once that you and I can find agreement on something! :)
Violet...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Not objectivity
subjectivity is the question. The proof is in the pudding. Stopping terror.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Stopping terror...
I get it now. So anything goes when it comes to 'stopping terror'? Interesting...

Violet...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Hardly
"anything" might include such things as suicide attacks, and all out war.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. Could you explain something?
What's the difference between war and all out war? You've made it abundantly clear that you do indeed support means of extreme violence against the Palestinian people, so why would all out war bother you at all? As for suicide bombings, the proof's in the pudding that they're about as effective in achieving anything as the IDF killing innocent Palestinian civilians. It seems to me that there's some people who will attempt to justify anything done, not matter how repellant it is, as 'stopping terror' and therefore being totally justifiable...

Violet...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #41
109. Explanation
I do not support extreme violence against the Palestinian people, contrary to your impressions. I am against the killing of innocent Palestinians as I am against the killing of innocent Israelis.

Israel is not engaged at present in all out war. The actions taken by the government and IDF are restrained, and restricted to arresting terrorist suspects and targeting those who are beyond a doubt guilty of planning and executing terrorist attacks.

What do you think the goal of suicide attacks are, for G-d's sake? Are they effective in killing all the citizens of Israel? Taken to the extreme, that is their goal.

As for suicide bombings, the proof's in the pudding that they're about as effective in achieving anything as the IDF killing innocent Palestinian civilians.

The IDF does not target innocent civilians, the suicide bombings do. It seems many support the Palestinians because they claim to have a larger number of innocents killed. This is itself hypocrisy. The only correct thing to do is to condemn all innocent deaths. It doesn't matter if it's Israeli or Palestinian. Innocent deaths belong as a credit to neither side.

Stop terror that is targeting innocents. Target terrorists.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #109
118. Israel's policies kill innocent children
Every Palestinian living in the Occupied Territories has suffered under the severe movement restrictions imposed by the Israeli army in the past three years. The impact on children has, however, been particularly severe.

Closures and curfews have prevented children from attending classes for prolonged periods, with inevitable consequences for their education and future personal and professional development prospects. With more than half the Palestinian population now living below the poverty line, there is also growing evidence of malnutrition in young children. And as impoverished families seek all possible means of adding to household income, child labour is reported to have increased.

Movement restrictions also prevent access to healthcare. As a result of stringently enforced closures and blockades, several women, on their way to hospital to give birth, have been forced to give birth at checkpoints, on the road, or at home. At least 10 babies have died as a result.
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/isr-201103-action-eng


Why are Palestinian children's lives less valuable than Israeli children lives?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #118
127. I would ask you
the same. Why are Israeli children not considered innocent victims when they are targeted on school buses and in homes, shot in their parents arms. Is this reversable, in you view?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #127
132. Your attempt to put words in my mouth won't work.

Killing innocents is wrong whether it's done with a bulldozer, an F-16, a suicide bomb or a rifle.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. UN: Only 11% of security fence follows 'Green Line'
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 01:15 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
A report, posted Tuesday on a United Nations website, says only 11 percent of the planned 687 kilometer (430 mile) security fence will actually follow the "Green Line" between Israel and the West Bank.

"Approximately 680,000 - 30 percent of the Palestinian population in the West Bank - will be directly harmed by the wall," the report states.

Israel says the barrier is necessary to keep out the suicide bombers who have claimed the lives of hundreds of Israelis over the past three years, while the Palestinians call it an attempt to pre-determine the border ahead of any final peace agreement.

The planned path for the barrier, also designed to protect Israel's international airport from rocket attacks, would trap at least 274,000 Palestinians between the fence and Israel, according to the UN report.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1068525556100&p=1008596981749



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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
99. Your point is...
You've proved that the fence does not follow the Green Line. Now demonstrate that this is morally unjustifiable.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #99
115. If you don't already know the difference between right and wrong
I won't be able to explain it to you.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #99
124. Could you answer the question you've been asked?
Here's a link to one of the times it's been asked. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=34037#34217

And while yr at it, how about you demonstrate that building a fence on land that doesn't belong to a state, in the process destroying homes and stealing land of people that also don't belong to that state is morally justifiable.


Violet...

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
29. Deleted message
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. calling an apartheid wall a "fence of peace" is obscene....
Peddle that turd elsewhere!
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. Wow, don't bother with evidence or other articles...
just say whatever you want (sarcasm)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. What other evidence or other articles do you need?
There's been plenty posted here, just go for a cruise through the forum if you don't believe me. Personally, I think such a moronic article with so many gaping holes in it doesn't deserve much more of a response than it got...

If the wall was being built along the Green Line, I'd have no problem with it, but even in that situation I'd probably baulk at it being described as a 'wall of peace'. Someone who describes it as that obviously defines peace as being something where Israelis can live their lives free of fear, but don't give a rats arse that Palestinians are still living under an oppressive occupation and don't have their own state. But I think peace is something that comes when there's no need for walls and occupations and the theft of land doesn't happen...

I've asked you several times and you've ignored the question, so I'll try it again. What is the wall achieving being built along the path it's taking that being built following the Green Line couldn't? There's a large number of Palestinians ending up on the western side of the wall, so if the excuse is security and in doing so it's keeping terrorists out, how has the GOI ensured that all those Palestinians finding themselves on the Israeli side of the wall aren't terrorists or people who wish harm on Israel?

Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
128. The fence would allow
for the Palestinians to have their own state, and to leave Israel alone. It seems thay just don't want that future at all. Sadder and sadder.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #128
139. What did that have to do with the questions I asked??
Apart from the fact that the fence is NOT giving the Palestinians their own state at all. You seriously think that opposition to the fence being built in Palestinian territory means that the people who oppose it don't want a Palestinian state? That's, uh, rather bizarre logic seeing as how I totally oppose the path the fence is taking and I most definately support a two state solution and a fair and lasting peace for both people...

Would you like to try answering the questions I asked in the post you responded to? Here they are again. I'd really like to see a serious attempt at an answer...

What is the wall achieving being built along the path it's taking that being built following the Green Line couldn't? There's a large number of Palestinians ending up on the western side of the wall, so if the excuse is security and in doing so it's keeping terrorists out, how has the GOI ensured that all those Palestinians finding themselves on the Israeli side of the wall aren't terrorists or people who wish harm on Israel?

Violet...



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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. Calling the Peace Fence an "apartheid wall" is obscene..."
But feel free to keep peddling.

BTW, is the fence that separates Gaza from Israel also an "apartheid wall?" Because it sure does seem to work like a Peace Fence.

Peace Fence ... maybe Cat Stevens will write a song ...
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. I heard he did write a new song for it!
unfortunately, a fatwa was issued and the song is no more
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. Huh?
No offense, but yr post made no sense. Can you explain what yr talking about?

btw, that Cat Stevens line of Blitz's was done to death over at LGF a week or so ago. It was lame the first time it was trotted out, and this more recent regurgitation hasn't improved it with age...


Violet...
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
65. Why, exactly, do so many of you
seem to spend so much time on LGF? It seems very odd to me, frankly.

I've been there exactly once - when someone here posted a link to it. I barely have time to keep up with what is posted on DU and I've got more free time than most people I know.

Does everyone just do a Google search looking for message boards with "Israel" in the description? Why?
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. You should ask
those that posted from LGF the anti-Muslim anti-Palestinian venom...
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #66
76. The only posters I hear
constantly referencing LGF on this board are the pro-Palestinian posters. That's why I asked someone who had just referenced the site.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #76
79. That's because you weren't around at
Edited on Sat Nov-29-03 11:09 AM by bluesoul
the time when stuff from Fox&Corkum and their friends LGF was being posted here... Not long ago
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Excuse me
I believe the lady has been a member at least as long as you have been and maybe longer. Her point is valid.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Member yes
but I don't remember no one under Lurking Dem posting in the debates several weeks ago when the stuff was posted here..
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. Must one post to meet some requirement?
That rule seems to have escaped me.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. I frequently don't post here
for weeks at a time but I read it every day and was posting I/P threads before there was an I/P forum.

That is a moot point anyway. You have to have a certain number of posts to have an opinion? You have to have posted in I/P for x number of weeks to be acceptable?

I saw the Cox and Forkum stuff and an allusion by one poster that it came from LGF. Before that I had never heard of LGF yet now, almost every day, someone on the pro-Pal side brings up something they saw there or something they read there.

It seems oddly pathologic to me.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. No you didn't understand me
I didn't say that you have to post to have an opinion just that I didn't remember you posting at the time and felt it must have escaped your attention. So you did see the Fox&Corkum stuff after alll (which is as much racist as LGF for matter) This is not about accusing anyone, just responding to your surprise regarding LGF being mentioned so many times. If there weren't articles about Muslims and Palestinians there that were used here no one would be mentioning them really IMHO...
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. We both understood you
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. I hope
so...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #65
106. I can only answer for myself...
Do you have some sort of problem with someone reading the comments at LGF? I'm not sure at all why reading it would seem odd to you at all. Maybe I shouldn't have visited and read the comments over there? I'll tell you something. There's one LGFer in particular who reads DU and is always slagging it off over there. It's entertainment like that which will probably lead me back there next time I'm bored...


Anyway, seeing yr so interested to know, I had way more spare time on my hands last week than I've had in the past, and since LGF has rated mentions here before, what with some posters reposting articles from there, I decided to go read the comments accompanying articles that get posted and see for myself whether it was still a cess-pit of inanity and bigotry, or whether it was starting to improve. If anything, it's worse....

LGF has been mentioned here plenty of times in the past, and to be honest I've never seen a link to it posted here and had to search for it myself when I decided to go look and see if a stream of articles appearing there was being lovingly reproduced in this forum..

Hope that helped you out :)

Violet...
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. It did.
I guess i don't always understand reading something for the sole purpose of getting riled up. I know some people do it (like listen to Rush Limbaugh) and apparently you are someone who does it for the entertainment value which is as reasonable an explanation as any.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #107
110. Reading For Getting Riled Up...
That's something I don't always understand either. I usually go by the rule that if I know in advance that reading or watching something is going to result in steam coming out of my ears and my blood-pressure going up several notches, I usually try and avoid coming into contact with it. Which is why I gave up on debating abortion online and stick with less personal and volatile issues now. To me places like LGF and the Yahoo message boards are the internet version of an episode of Jerry Springer - when I come into contact with it, I tend to cringe with embarressment for the participants, wonder to myself if it's possible to have the single digit IQ many of the participants seem to possess and still have all normal body functions, and above all, I can sit here and be highly entertained for free without being involved in it at all...

Is now a good time to admit I also watch Foxnews sometimes for the same reasons? ;)

Violet...
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. Heh!
Jerry Springer - great analogy.

You get Fox Down Under? My apologies!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. Foxnews...
We not only get Foxnews, but the cable network it's on, Foxtel, is owned by Murdoch. And if you think about it, I'm the one who should apologise for Foxnews to any Americans, because without Murdoch there'd be no Foxnews, and as Australia gave the world (and specifically the US with its lovely media-mogul-friendly media laws) Rupert Murdoch, we've got a lot of apologising to do yet! :)

Violet...

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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
112. apartheid
the South African policy of dividing people into living areas, schools, medical facilities, etc. on a purely racial basis.
1. Last map I looked at Israel was not in S.Africa
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #112
140. Something doesn't have to happen in SA for it to be apartheid...
Which is why you'll find that the term apartheid is quite accurate when applied to some of Israel's policies in the Occupied Territories...


Violet...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. This article is an insult to human intelligence
besides the fact that it is a RW junk piece
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Devastating rebuttal...
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 12:49 PM by drdon326
.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
28. It really didn't deserve much more...
Whereas an article by Uri Avnery is like a glass of really top-notch white wine on a stinky hot summers night, the article you posted is like the morning after when someone's indulged in too many glasses of that wine and they're clinging to the toilet bowl, forlornly looking at that ickky, congealed mess that just missed the toilet containing the obligatory bits of carrots that they puked up the night before and wondering what it is. That ickky mess is the article you posted, don, and I can expand on my opinion with great detail if you insist I do so ;)

Of course, you can always have a read of my reply to John Locke and try and answer the questions I asked there...

Violet...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
129. All goes to show you
some people have better intestinal fortitude than others, and it's all in the eye of the beholder (as well as their orientation to the world).
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #129
130. Exactly
One is a RW piece, the other from a liberal/progressive. And I certainly know whom to trust and respect more as a liberal...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #129
141. Puke is puke, no matter how you look at it...
I think the only beholder that'd appeal to is the family dog that loves lapping that sort of stuff up if someone doesn't clean it up fast enough...

As for intestinal fortitude, this beholder hasn't been in the habit of swallowing crap for a long time, which is why I have such a dislike of the conservative schlock in some articles posted here...


Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. Deleted message
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Thanks
well thought out.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Deleted message
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. "just a chain link fence"
Most of the barrier will be a chain-link type fence similar to those used all over the United States combined with underground and long-range sensors, unmanned aerial vehicles, trenches, landmines and guard paths. Manned checkpoints will constitute the only way to travel back and forth through the fence. The barrier is altogether about 160 feet wide in most places.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html

See for yourself. Is this just a chain link fence?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
20. Perhaps the most ridiculous assertion
is the idea that this is merely a temporary security measure, not meant to be a political border, and the suggestion that it would be 'torn down' if only

"The Palestinian leadership, and all others who want to see a peaceful resolution to the conflict, would be well advised to fight terrorism instead of fighting the fence."


However:

This is the largest infrastructure project in Israel's history. The cost of the entire fence is approximately $1.6 million per mile and, when completed, is expected to have cost about $1 billion.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html



So we are supposed to believe that Israel is going to spend a billion dollars building this and then tear it down? :eyes:


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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
31. "Israel's fence of peace" OF SHIT !!!!
:eyes: :smoke:
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Think about it.
One builds a fence/wall for one of two reasons, either to keep something in or out. Who's coming in and who's going out?
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Noon_Blue_Apples Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. or to grow clematis

see, there are always other options

Think about it
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
116. Think about it.
When my neighbor put up a fence 20 feet on my side of our property line, the 'reasons' for doing it were irrelevant. It was wrong and illegal.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
35. Deleted message
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Why should the Israelis build the "fence" on Palestinian land?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Deleted message
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hossdiddy Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. there's
no such thing as Palestinian land.

And to say that if Israel built the fence on the Green Line it would placate their enemies is false. Their enemies never accepted ANY borders for Israel. As the Pals have attacked Israel since its existence, they should not get as much land for their future state as they once might have, for punitive reasons, and as Israel needs defensible borders.

To build the fence on the Green Line would reward terrorism. Even though we know they want to slaughter every last Israeli and take all of Israel, some will sometimes say (for Western ears) that all they want is the land Israel captured in 1967. To build the fence on the Green Line would give them hope that Israel is weakening, and that they should keep going for final victory. It would prolong this conflict (not that I see any end in sight)
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. "No such thing as Palestinian land"
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 07:52 AM by bluesoul
"They want to slaughter every last Israeli"? Every single Palestinian wants that? LOL

Your views are as extreme as extreme comes. You call yourself a "progessive"? This is not even funny, this is beyond absurd...

Oh my...

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hossdiddy Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. When
did I say all Palestinians want that?

In the previous sentence I end with the words "reward terrorism" so it is pretty clear I am talking about the terrorists when I talk about the desire to slaughter Isrealis, not all Palestin..

Oh. Wait a second. You are saying that all Palestinians are terrorists.

What a deplorable view for somebody "claiming" to be progressive.

(Or are only you allowed to set up strawmen?)
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #48
73. You did say that Israel must be allowed to steal land
Edited on Sat Nov-29-03 10:50 AM by Classical_Liberal
of innocent palestinians so as not to reward terrorist. Basically it is ok to do immoral things to the innocent if terrorist seek revenge for it. I don't see how that is in any way progressive. You also say Palestinians should be punished for terroism so I think she was reading you quite well. You are the one saying all palestinians are responsible for terrorism.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. Mr Diddy has said a lot of
things that have nothing do to with progressive ideas..The more I read the more I am amazed what is passing here...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #74
137. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. No such thing as Palestinian land?
LOL.

This is a guerilla war, not a conventional one - tactics must change. The general population in the West Bank are currently very angry at Israel over this wall on their land, which causes many of them to support terrorism, which makes destroying terrorism impossible.

A wall on the Green Line wouldn't encourage terrorism, but would rather show the Palestinians that the Israelis might actually want peace.

By the way - by your logic, wouldn't stopping terrorism simply encourage devestating actions against the Palestinians by the IDF?
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hossdiddy Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. "by your logic,
wouldn't stopping terrorism simply encourage devestating actions against the Palestinians by the IDF? "

This implies that the terrorists and the IDF have the same goal - maximum devastation.

This is false. The terrorists want maximal slaughter, the IDF wants to kill the terrorists, or at least thwart them. (If the IDF wanted maximal slaughter there would be no Palestinians)

Also, if Israel were to take devastating actions against the Pals after they stopped terrorism, the US would indeed stop morally and financially supporting Israel. It would be suicidal (and I don't think the Israelis buy into the whole 72 virgins thing)
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. You don't think the wall is devestating?
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hossdiddy Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Devastating?
No.

Despite the histrionic claims of anti-semites it is just a fence/wall.

It is sad that it has come to it, but it is a good solution when there are only bad alternatives.

Are some Pals going to lose their land? Sure. A few.

But weighed against :

- innocent Israelis being blown up in cafes, buses, their cribs
- The Green Line not being a defensible border
- Israel's enemies never recognized the Green Line as a border, so their saying that it should be built there is just based on their desire for Israel to appear to be giving in, and their desire for Israel to have a non-defensible border.
- the fact that Palestinians should lose land in a war they started (1967 war and intifada)

it is a small thing.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #51
62. So anyone who opposes the wall is an anti-semite?
Just lovely. Well, if opposing the path of the wall because of the devastating effect it's having on Palestinians makes me an anti-semite, then I'm damn proud to be one and I'd wear that label with pride, because to not oppose the wall and to trivialise the effect it's having on innocent Palestinians by calling it a small thing would mean that I could no longer see myself as a progressive or a liberal...

A few points -

* As the Palestinians losing their homes and being affected by the wall aren't terrorists, how does punishing them become okay because there's been suicide bombings?

* The Green Line is an internationally recognised border that was set after 1948. If it can't be defended for whatever reason (and I've never heard a sensible reason), then the answer is not to indulge in territorial expansion, but to move the border westwards to somewhere where it is defensible...

* The Palestinians did NOT start the 1967 war. As for the intifada, it's a strange, dank world where punishment for an uprising of people under a long-term illegal occupation is some folk claiming the uprising justifies the stealing of their land...


Violet...
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. It Is, Ma'am
An unusual experience for me, being called an Anti-Semite, at any rate....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. I cannot believe
some of the garbage I am reading here. Arab world siding with Hitler? Anything to demonize and bash Palestinians even if they had nothing to do with Hitler and his policy... Oh my where have we come
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:36 AM
Original message
I cannot believe
that you are implying that segments of the Arab world did not side with Hitler.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
70. Did Palestinias as nation
side and aid Hitler? This is just more Palestinian/Arab bashing, generalizing, demonizing from our fine mr Hossdiddy, the one claiming there is no Palestinian land. But I guess even here at DU such extremes are welcome. Ah well...
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. Please reread my comment
Nowhere did I mention Palistine as a nation. I said "segments of the Arab world"

It is not "more Palestinian/Arab bashing" as you imply but a statement of historical fact.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #70
77. That sir
is historical fact, parts of the Arab world sided with Hitler. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a notorious supporter of Herr Hitler.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. And what does one Mufti have with the Palestinians
of today? Some Jews also worked with the Nazi's but that doesn't mean anything...
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #78
104. It has a LOT to do with it
Seeing how the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was both the de facto head of the arab population of the British Mandate and the de jure head of large parts of it by both British appointment and local "Palestinian" popular support has a lot to do with it.

Seeing how the same Grand Mufti was convicted of genocide in regard to extermination of Jews and "other undesirables" in Yugoslavia has a lot to do with it.

Seeing how the same Grand Mufti was a personal adviser to Hitler and lived in Berlin for large parts of the war has a lot to do with it.

Seeing how the same Grand Mufti was given asylum for his war crimes in Egypt after the war has a lot to do with it.

Seeing how the same Grand Mufti worked with Eichmann on the plans for extermination camps to be built northwest of Jerusalem to solve his "Jewish Problem" the same way that Eichmann did has a lot to do with it.

But mostly, seeing how Yasser Arafat has praised the same Grand Mufti as a leader of the Palestinian People has the most to do with it.

So, if Arafat says that the Grand Mufti has a lot to do with the Palestinians, I'd say he know more Palestinian history than you do.

Once again, wanting something to be so, doesn't make it so.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #104
119. So, does the same 'logic' apply to Americans?
As one of yr past presidents was a slave-owner, and I've got no doubt that current leaders have praised him in the past, does that mean that slavery has a lot to do with the US invasion of Iraq?

See, what I think is that the Grand Mufti and his support of Hitler has as little to do with the I/P conflict and what's happening to the Palestinian people now as Germany's support of Hitler in WWII has anything to do with current-day Germany and its people. And if you want to dredge up support for Hitler during WWII, how's about we talk for a bit about Americans who supported the Nazis? Or how's about we have a talk about how the US didn't even start fighting the Nazis for a few years after Britain had gone to war with them? And if you think that the central issue for other countries back in the days of WWII was Hitler's plans for European Jews, then think again. Much of the fighting was about Germany's territorial expansion, and as has happened since, human rights came in a very poor reason right down the bottom of the list, which means that leaders gave the plight of European Jews as about as much of a reason for fighting Germany as all genocides since have been used as a reason to fight terrible regimes that commit such crimes. Sadly, though all war sucks, human rights just isn't as compelling reason to fight a war as things like territory, oil, and other resources are....


Violet...

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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #77
120. And so did lehi
I hardly think I need remind you who ran that little terrorist operation.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
71. I cannot believe you are using this ridiculous strawman!
He claimed that people who want the 67 border are siding with Hitler.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. My comment was directed to comment # 68
If you wish to call it "strawman" go ahead. I find that the use of the term "strawman" usually is a poster's method of avoiding a comment or answering a question. But that is just my opinion.

:shrug:
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. The Palestinians were peaceful for several years in the 90s
Edited on Sat Nov-29-03 10:40 AM by Classical_Liberal
and there was no let up on the settlements. Furthermore if you claim giving the Palestinians a state is to side with Hitler, then how can you say peace will bring a state? Are you siding with Hitler?
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
91. As I read down this thread,
I see a lot of strongly-held opinions with a lot of emotionality thrown in. However, I found no poster either claiming that giving the Palestinians a state is to side with Hitler nor that anyone here is indeed siding with Hitler.

It seems to me that the misunderstanding came about from the mention that some of the Arabs were on Hitler's side in WWII.

Although there is certainly evidence of some Arab meetings, discussions and agreements with Hitler; they would only have occurred because both sides wanted to rid the world of Jews; but, I don't recall reading that the Arabs who sided with Hitler actually wanted to murder the Jews. I think they just didn't want Jews to be anywhere.

And, of course, this does not reflect on the Palestinians because then, as now, they didn't have a state. In fact, they weren't even referring to themselves as Palestinians until 1967.

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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #91
96. this is long, but perhaps it will clarify the issue of Nazis and Arabs
Edited on Sat Nov-29-03 01:38 PM by rini
regardless, that was then and this is now.

http://www.chuckmorse.com/hitler_palestinian_arabs.html

<oops>:shrug: This guy is very right wing........the history is correct, but the guy is well, not of my persuasion. I was trying to avoid an Israeli site and fell into this.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. As I said, the guy is weird
but just google "grand mufi nazis" and pick whatever....the end result is the same. As I said, that was then and this is now.......
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. ok
I agree, this author is different but his history is correct. Make your own conclusions or refute it if you can. Not the author, the history.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. Come now Rini
When the message can't be attacked, attack the messenger.

When neither can be attacked, announce a "strawman" intrusion.

When the history can't be attacked, just rewrite it to make it fit.

When all else fails, just say "oh my"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. One more time
if you disagree with the history, please refute it. No more dancing around the problem of its historical accuracy, just refute it if you can.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. I know
the message is historically correct. There is no way to refute it's accuracy. But I am confident someone will find a revisionist article.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #101
108. Don't be so hard on Herschel!
I know what you've just described fits him perfetcly, but I find his 'oh my' at the end of every post cutely endearing and have adopted him as my pet mascot in this forum while he continues to do it.

Oh my!

Leave him alone!!!! ;)

Violet...


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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #96
133. Rini
Please re-read #91 - I'm not sure you read it as it was intended...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #62
111. The uprising
If it were only an uprising, and if it were relatively non-violent, then of course there would be no wall necessary.

"...how does punishing them become okay because there's been suicide bombings?"

The point is not to punish innocent civilians, but to prevent further suicide attacks, which everyone knows by now are relentlessly planned, internationally organized by terrorist organizations, and threaten every western country, including Australia and GB.

The "Move it west" idea is a non-starter. For the reason that the "West" is only a few miles from the sea as it is. There is a trade-off planned for areas within the Greenline that contain Israeli settlements and land that is currently on the Israeli side. Negotiated peace and non-violence are the only way.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. There's no such thing as Israeli land either.
It was not terra nulla before 1948.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
131. And this is 1946
sure thing.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Build it on the green line!
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 06:21 AM by Classical_Liberal
otherwise you create hate! If you intend on starving all Palestinians you are no different from the genocidal maniacs you describe.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. Green Line
Do you honestly think that the response to a wall would have been much different if it had been built on the Green Line? Not likely.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. If you would be reading what people
say you would see that it would be much different. I don't care what Israel builds on it's own territory, it certainly has the right to do there whatever they wish. This HOWEVER is something completely different. Why would anyone build something this huge if it would only be permanent? The answer is very clear to those that know Sharon and the right wing and their plans in Israel. Just not to you...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. So, hypothetically
Israel builds the barrier on the Green Line. As a result, it cuts off all access into Israel from either Gaza or the West Bank or transit between the two.

You see no likely clamor from that? I sure do.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Yes, I do
ARe you saying the purpose of the Weall is to starve the Palestinians?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. Give that line a rest, Muddle
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 05:40 PM by Jack Rabbit
EDITED for an obvious error in syntax

Yes, some people would object to a Wall no matter where it is built. Not all would.

The point about building the Wall on the Green Line is that were it there, no one could accuse Israel of attempting a de facto annexation of territory beyond her borders; no Palestinian farmer would find a fortified barrier between his dwelling and his crops; and no Palestinian would be living between the Green Line and the Wall to be classified as a "long-term resident" with no political rights.

No one has yet presented a good case why the Wall could not have been built on the Green Line and how the Wall where it is would protect Israelis from terrorists any better than one built on the Green Line.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. I am afraid
we will never hear those answers as even those for the wall know why it is really being built...
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. That may be true in some cases, but not all
I'd still be interested in hearing the answer. Doc actually attempted one the other day, although I can't say I found it convincing. Nevertheless, I appreciate his effort.

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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Darn....
I thought my power of persuasion would have won you over.

oh well....we're still at ONE in a row.

:)
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Ian Anderson is the greatest rock flautist ever
There, that's two.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. I have a big smile right now....
i stand corrected....that is two.


thanks for the smile.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. LOL
A distant Number 2 would probably be Focus' Thijs van Leer. Some very tasty work on Hocus Pocus.

And no, I don't consider Kenny G a rock flautst or even great for that matter.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #64
121. I'm getting the feeling....
...that I'm surrounded by a bipartisan mob of people with really, really bad taste in music. Or otherwise you guys are being really sarcastic, in which case I forgive you all ;)


Violet...
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. Taking a guess
But I think the Good Doctor, Mr. Rabbit and myself are with in a decade of the same age and this is the music we grew up with.

L-
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #123
125. I'm also taking a guess...
That I might be in the decade that followed, because Jethro Tull were already kind of past it by the time I became aware of them. But then aagin, I have ever-so-precious, incredibly awesome taste in music that just can't be matched, y'know!

So, do you guys like anything, well, that's good? ;)


Violet...
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #125
135. I like all kinds of music
Edited on Sun Nov-30-03 01:31 PM by Jack Rabbit
Of course, I am a creature of the sixties. I like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Dylan, the Grateful Dead and (oh, yes) Jethro Tull.

Music of the late seventies? Unfortunately, music at that time was overwhelmed by some pale imitation of the art called disco. Popular music has never fully recovered from that assault.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #46
122. Ideally there should be no need at all
for a wall, but since Israel wants a wall it should NOT be built on occupied territory. That is just inciting the enemy, and inviting more hatred. How does that help the search for peace?

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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Yes, my responce would have been different
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 05:25 PM by Classical_Liberal
if it had been built on the green line. The fact that it isn't just confirmes my position that Sharon intends to create greater israel.
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
84. Great Article, drdon326; here's something related:
cut

The Palestinians committed themselves in the Oslo accords and in the road map to dismantle terrorist networks and confiscate illegal weapons. After more than 10 years of negotiations, and a mounting toll of Israeli civilian casualties, however, it became clear to the Israeli people that the Palestinian Authority (PA) made a strategic choice to use terror to achieve its aims and that something had to be done to protect the civilian population.

cut

The security fence does not separate one people, i.e. - Germans from Germans, and deny freedom to those on one side. Second, while Israelis are fully prepared to live with Palestinians, and 20 percent of the Israeli population is already Arab, it is the Palestinians who say they do not want to live with any Jews and call for the West Bank to be judenrein. Third, the security fence is not being constructed to prevent the citizens of one state from escaping; it is designed solely to keep terrorists out of Israel.

cut

Most of the barrier will be a chain-link type fence similar to those used all over the United States combined with underground and long-range sensors, unmanned aerial vehicles, trenches, landmines and guard paths. Manned checkpoints will constitute the only way to travel back and forth through the fence. The barrier is altogether about 160 feet wide in most places.

cut

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelsecurityfence.html
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. We have seen pictures of the wall
and how it affects the regular Palestinians (not terrorists) that have to wait sometimes hours before passing by, on THEIR land! No minimizing and trying to relativize will help here...
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. Did you check out the site or just glance at
the 4 paragraphs I excerpted?

The fence is shown on the site as well as info responsive to your post.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. That is a propaganda site...
hardly worth notice.
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. If you want to get technical,
everything is a 'propaganda' site.

If a site or a news article comes from Israel or is fair to Israel, those who side against Israel here dismiss it as propaganda.

There really is no absolute truth in matters such as these. Existentially speaking, actually, there is no absolute truth at all.

The progressive wing of the democratic party certainly has no litmus test that all progressives must despise Israel: what is this? Aping the aggressor? Is it like all Bush-appointed judges must be anti-choice?

Hey everybody: empathy: try it sometime! It's a good thing.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. I highly recommend
empathy to the other side as well. And I agree with you as far as this is concerned...
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. I don't understand.
I wrote:

Hey everybody: empathy: try it sometime! It's a good thing.


What side is there besides everybody's ... :eyes:
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. Oh, ok then
I thought you were only referring to certain people ;)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #94
117. Can we help you understand?
Reading yr post it was clear that you were only referring to empathy when it came to Israel. If you honestly believe that there's no sides, and that empathy should also be shown towards Palestinians as well as Israelis, then may I welcome you to DU because we need more of those sort of posters. But I've been reading some of yr other posts in other threads and I'm not feeling too confident that you actually don't see yrself as being on one side or the other..

Violet....
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #117
134. Yes, I do have my own beliefs.
However, those beliefs do not preclude me from having empathy for all who find themselves in this most awful quagmire.

Does it not make sense to care for others even if they don't have the same views as your own? It does to me.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #134
138. Let's try this again...
I've got absolutely no idea what caused my reply to be deleted as there was nothing breaking the rules in it, but obviously someone hit alert over something in it, so here goes...

I'll hold you to what you claim and expect to see you displaying empathy for EVERYONE caught up in the conflict, regardless of whether they're Israeli or Palestinian....

I'm not sure where you've gotten yrself the idea that I was talking about showing empathy for everyone who disagrees with me. Especially when it comes to the internet, I don't have a lot of empathy with some folk...


Violet...
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
126. Technically--this is an EDITORIAL...not an "Article"....
That is, this is an OPINION PEACE...from the EDITORIAL/Op ED section of the paper.

An ARTICLE is generally based on a REPORT of some sort..that is, it presents..usually..some new factual content as opposed to purely intepretive material.

Although some articles take more of an interpretive position that others, these are distinct genres...and the distinction is not unimportant.

I didn't think this piece was especially "Great" either.
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