Israel’s immoral novelists

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4046028,00.html

snip - Amos Oz and David Grossman, Israel’s most popular authors, have a track record of genuine Zionist endeavor. But Oz just got in touch with Marwan Barghouti, the Palestinian terrorist leader convicted of murdering five Israelis and planning several terrorist attacks. The Israel Prize recipient sent the Palestinian prisoner one of his books with a personal inscription wishing him a speedy release from prison: “This story is our story. I hope you read it and understand us better, as we attempt to understand you. Hoping to meet soon in peace and freedom.”


Indeed, the gap between these authors and the guillotine threatening Israel grows larger every day. David Grossman, whose son Uri was killed in the Second Lebanon War, was the first Israeli writer to explore the psychology of the Israeli occupation after 1967. Since then, Grossman’s paradigm, simply put, was always the same: Israel must end its role of occupier and oppressor if the horror of terrorism is to end.

snip - Indeed, the morality of Israeli writers is not longer in tune with reality and its contradictions, Israel’s security, very existence, identity and memory. These authors’ publications attract so much attention abroad because of the baleful influence they have on Israel’s reputation, as they promulgate the most vicious distortions about Israel.



I am saddened to read such a commentary....and the comments below the article.

Mr Grossman is quite correct: "Grossman’s paradigm, simply put, was always the same: Israel must end its role of occupier and oppressor if the horror of terrorism is to end."

All the blather in the world will not change that. Some of the comments seemed spot on to me.

Isn't it possible, even likely, that terrorism would still continue, as the aim of some of the terrorists is expansion rather than simply freedom from oppression?

And people who are raised with violence do not suddenly become pacifists, as a rule. So:

1.) It will take generational change to reduce the level of violence to some new equilibrium level. Nevertheless, the decline in violence should begin quickly once a satisfactory political settlement is in place. Most people, being able to get on with their lives in a satisfactory way, choose to do so. There are a number of examples to go on: South Africa, Ireland, India, that give an idea.

2.) The probable new level of endemic violence (fancifully imagining we can ignore all other factors) looks something like it was before the large influx of immigrants to the area, though there are other possibilites.

3.) The main point is that one cannot keep doing the same things and expect the situation to fix itself, the current situation is the RESULT of past and present policies.

Do you think there is a connection between the revolution in Egypt and the recent escalation in the level of violence in Israel and the surrounding areas?

I would be interested in what anybody else thinks too. It seems too much to be coincidence, but I have no evidence, no theory.

Not sure - certainly worth considering.

My theory, though, is that the recent escalation is more related to the Palestinian protest movement in support of reconciliation.

There are extremists who would very much prefer that this not occur.

The agent provocateur sort of thing is commoner than one might think, but that sort of reasoning leaves one with many potential perps, since so many will have a vested interest in the status quo. I was thinking more along the lines of an increase in material support to the jihadis, or a decline in Hamas' control of Gaza and/or the jihadis, but I have nothing much to support that either. It was notable that Hamas felt obliged to take "credit" for a large share of the mortar attack.

According to one website - the Popular Resistance Committees lauded the attack....although I am not sure if they claim responsibility.

violence has its spasms.....it could have speeded up the next "spasim" but nothing more than that. Hamas has to release the pressure by letting its more militant wings attack israel, otherwise those very energetic young men have little to do and will eventually turn on hamas. Hamas own identity requires those attacks.

by the way.....this is more wishful thinking than anything else :
Nevertheless, the decline in violence should begin quickly once a satisfactory political settlement is in place.

Your examples are democratic nations. For your theory to work, you'll have to find a dictatorship, preferably an arab one where the cultures are simaler....

as far as doing the same thing and nothing changes....where have you been the last 10 years?...from oslo to gaza there were major changes in both the political and geographical landscape

My examples are all ex-colonial enterprises, the issue is the process by which they became "democratic nations", it isn't something that just pops up here and there like mushrooms.

the illusion that the citizens of western countries and arab islamic countries react the same to simaler events is nothing more than the classic ignorance of the western elite.....the events unfolding will be clear testament to that....more so israeli occupation doesn't even resemble the colonial enterprises-hence not only is your base assumptions wrong, but so too are conclusions....
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it's all random and there is nothing we can do
its always smarter to ask for further clarification rather than making dumb assumptions....

why its never discussed?....is it because its not believed that that the arab middle east cultures are different from the west?....is it believed that its irrelevant?

seems no one has ever told me "to my face" why different cultures may or as i seem to understand from your reaction, that different cultures are actually irrelevant in terms of reactions to events.

all cultures "react the same to the same events"...is that it?

Cultures are indeed different, and that has consequences, but that does not mean diddly shit when it comes to people, people are not the culture they grew up in, and the cultures they grew up in are not all you need to know about them.

Also, the fact that cultures are indeed different does not mean some are better than others, it just means they are different. It is just amazing how people who indulge in the delusion of measuring cultures against each other almost always seem to come to the conclusion that their culture is the best, it's almost like their is some not-so-subtle bias at work.

Also, cultures can change, and they do, all the time, so postulates to the effect that this or that culture is worse than some other culture deny the reality of cultural change.

If you want to just say "I'm a loyal Israeli and I support my country and it's policies, right or wrong", then I'm OK with that, that just makes you like everybody else. When you start babbling on about "Arab culture" you are completely full of it, both in the sense that there is no such thing, there are many "Arab cultures", and in the sense that you know only a small and highly distorted version of those varied cultures, the one your country created by its own actions.

what is it with the the word 'racist"..as if its THE INSULT...that is supposed to make some of us cower in shame?...

of course as in your first sentence you really make a mess:
Cultures are indeed different, and that has consequences

see, now thats true for anybody who has ever worked with people of different cultures.....

but then in some weird attempt to cancel out that first statement, which is obvious to many, you come up with some weird statement:
but that does not mean diddly shit when it comes to people, people are not the culture they grew up in

since cultures are actually made up of the people that grew up in those cultures your statement makes diddly shit. (but yes people can change and that includes their cultural traits as i have- infact we TAKE ON the local culture.)

this is my all time favorite statement:
Also, the fact that cultures are indeed different does not mean some are better than others, it just means they are different.

why you ask? only because its the most hypocritical statement one can make...its an illusion that doesnt hold up to reality.

tell me, as one who advocates that "all cultures are equal but different"...do you believe that we should support those cultures that believe in and still practice the following?

FGM, stoning of women, hanging homosexuals, honor killings, virgins in to volcanos, cannibalism, keeping women uneducated, ..i could go on, the taliban have quite an interesting culture, that, from what you've written, i guess you would defend their culture..right?

wait a sec..now your claiming the Palestenians have a "distorted culture"......whoooooooo, what happened to "different"...distortion is a negative term, i.e a value judgement on their culture, i thought you claimed that you don't do that?
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whats are conclusion so far?...

that your trying to have it both ways: you say all cultures are equal, but then you make a value judgement on the Palestinian culture....
and of course i eagerly await your defense of the talibans culture in regards to women... (do that, i will actually believe that you really do believe that all cultures are equal)

this is one of those, its either one of the other kind of things, no wiggle room here.

the discussion gets a little bit interesting about your views....and what? you disappear?
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and please dont give me the "i've already explained that" excuse" or the " I know where your going with that."....etc etc etc. ..they 're nothing but cop outs, excuses to avoid a real exploration of your real views and opinion.

You've made a definitive statement about how all cultures are equal, and that to imply that they aren't is to be racist (that accusation really makes me shake in my boots). Thats a view, so now i apply it to the world and look what i get?


you disparage the Palestinian culture as being "distorted" (please note, they probably disagree with your judgement upon their culture).

and i'm awaiting to confirm your confirmation of the Taliban culture as a culture to be respected and equal to that of the wests or a good excuse for you to claim its "distorted" ...or something?

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this is where the discussions should be....where the "talking points" are gone and you have to really define and explain your views vs the real environment.

The youth in Gaza have been trying to protest their own government....and have been met with a violent crackdown. Those youth, from the universities wanted reconciliation. And the terror groups definately do not. I do not think those two groups are monolithic.

Hamas own identity required those attacks...because it is COUNTING on Israel to reciprocate...which it has very few options....and thus solidifying Hamas violent rule which it sees as being threatened from within. It worked after Cast Lead 1 didn't it?

I am not sure....it is just a theory.

are not thrilled with hamas rule...which is the problem we're going to be seeing in egypt soon enough (muslim brotherhood) and what we saw in iran....when the religious ones get the power, they no longer have any need for real elections or revolutions or rebellions (having god on your side tends to give you that 'power')....so protesting their rule is not going to get them much.

Btw there were two main universities in gaza, hamas owned and fatah owned.....i no longer know if the fatah one is still working, but those secular youth are not going to get much leeway from hamas. (or from those youth who joined hamas to 'get a job").

Hamas has already cracked down on its rebellious youth, in the south they razed a mosque, they've shot protestors, trashed the intl News organization offices....they have little patience for western morality nor values when they god given govt is threatened

but the violence on each side escalates the violence on the other.

Meotti may disagree with them, but calling them 'immoral' is too much. And let's note that both Oz and Grossman have lived in Israel all their lives, experienced the dangers, served in the IDF, and Grossman lost his son to the conflict. Of course this doesn't mean that everyone has to agree with them, but Meotti's attitude of moral and intellectual superiority to them is a little much.

I posted this op because I thought it might inspire some interesting discussion...although I freely admit it is a bit difficult focussing on that when a bus stop just got bombed.....sigh.