Prominent Australians fight anti-Semitism with hot chocolate

Labor MP Michael Danby, Australian Workers Union secretary Paul Howes, former Labor Party president Warren Mundine, comedian Sandy Gutman, aka Austen Tayshus, and journalist Jana Wendt were among those who spoke out against a violent protest on July 1 outside the Max Brenner chocolate shop in Melbourne in which three police officers were hurt and 19 protesters arrested.

Mr Danby, who organised last night's meeting and is one of three Jewish federal MPs, said the violent protest had been a reminder to him of the need for vigilance against anti-Semitism, and it was worrying that Greens senator Lee Rhiannon was a vocal supporter of the boycott.

"The impetus was an ugly, violent demonstration in Melbourne and Senator Rhiannon's determination to take this boycott further," he said. "She would like to see it introduced into the Senate and into politics. "We remember the precedence of the 1930s; my father came from Germany, and (at) any sign of this kind of behaviour we have to draw a line in the sand."

<snip>

Mr Howes said the far-left protesters were "mimicking the behaviour of the Nazi thugs" and it was necessary to "nip this in the bud". "I would say the bulk of the people who are voting Greens have no understanding of the xenophobic, extremist and abhorrent policies they are voting for," he said.

more...
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/prominent-australians-fight-anti-semitism-with-hot-chocolate/story-fn59niix-1226103033643

Video of boycotters from July 29, 2011:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e4XEO2iC9E&feature=player_embedded#at=232

from June 2011:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLVE9Vu1w1k&feature=player_embedded

<snip>

Then there are the historical parallels. In the mid-1930s, Sir Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists used to go on rampages outside Jewish-owned shops in London's East End - some were boycotted, others smashed up. The British government responded by implementing the Public Order Act. Mosley targeted Jewish traders because they were Jews. The BDS protesters targeted the Max Brenner chocolate shop because its parent company does business in the Jewish state of Israel.

The demonstration in Melbourne (there was also one in Sydney in June) has attracted little attention, apart from coverage by Andrew Bolt and reports in the Australian Jewish News. This suggests society has become complacent when the target of a protest is Jewish.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/jews-know-acceptance-still-has-its-exceptions-20110711-1haka.html#ixzz1Tgurcana

Mosley hated Jews. The BDS people don't. They just hate what's been done to Palestinians. And, once more, it's demagogic to equate "Jews" with "Israel". the two concepts are NOT synonymous.

And it's not hatred of Jews simply to express anger about what the Israeli government has done to Palestinians.

If you want Palestinians to accept a two-state solution you have to call for an immediate letup on the treatment Israel has inflicted on the people of the West Bank. You can't expect them to accept the idea that Israelis are the real victims in this when they are having to live under the perpetual repression of the Occupation.

Could you at least admit that Palestinians have the right to regard the Occupation as an injustice? That they have legitimate grievances about what the IDF has done to them? Why is that something you can never acknowledge?

It does not need be Nazi to be totally bigoted and disgraceful.

...are then compared to Nazis themselves.

Are you incapable of distinguishing between Israel and its actions and Jews?

...while its goal is to end Jewish self-determination in Israel.

It's antisemitic at its core and is like singling out Palestinians using the most racist, bigoted language and saying they (especially refugees) don't deserve their own state either.

You think it's coincidence that every target of BDS just happens to be Jewish? I want to know of ONE target of BDS that is not Jewish given that Israel is 20% non-Jewish...

I've posted in this thread and quite a few others information on what the global BDS movement is about. It does NOT call for boycotts of Jewish companies. I can post the information about what the movement is about if you need to read it again.

I'm absolutely convinced that yr incapable or unwilling to distinguish between Israel and its actions, and Jews...

You need to read what Omar Barghouti and his minions are advocating elsewhere without dismissing it all as bullshit that contradicts the vague, disingenuous statement about BDS at their website.

On the other hand, I do dismiss all of yr 'arguments' about BDS as being bullshit. I've seen some very compelling arguments from very intelligent people who care deeply about the plight of the Palestinians as to why boycotting isn't the way to go, but you have yet to come anywhere close to using any of those arguments...

Here it is again

The global movement for a campaign of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) against Israel until it complies with international law and Palestinian rights was initiated by Palestinian civil society in 2005. BDS is a strategy that allows people of conscience to play an effective role in the Palestinian struggle for justice.

For decades, Israel has denied Palestinians their fundamental rights of freedom, equality, and self-determination through ethnic cleansing, colonization, racial discrimination, and military occupation. Despite abundant condemnation of Israeli policies by the UN, other international bodies, and preeminent human rights organisations, the world community has failed to hold Israel accountable and enforce compliance with basic principles of law. Israel’s crimes have continued with impunity.

In view of this continued failure, Palestinian civil society called for a global citizens’ response. On July 9 2005, a year after the International Court of Justice’s historic advisory opinion on the illegality of Israel’s Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), a clear majority of Palestinian civil society called upon their counterparts and people of conscience all over the world to launch broad boycotts, implement divestment initiatives, and to demand sanctions against Israel, until Palestinian rights are recognised in full compliance with international law.

The campaign for boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) is shaped by a rights-based approach and highlights the three broad sections of the Palestinian people: the refugees, those under military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and Palestinians in Israel. The call urges various forms of boycott against Israel until it meets its obligations under international law by:

Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantling the Wall;
Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.
The BDS call was endorsed by over 170 Palestinian political parties, organizations, trade unions and movements. The signatories represent the refugees, Palestinians in the OPT, and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Boycotts target products and companies (Israeli and international) that profit from the violation of Palestinian rights, as well as Israeli sporting, cultural and academic institutions. Anyone can boycott Israeli goods, simply by making sure that they don’t buy produce made in Israel or by Israeli companies. Campaigners and groups call on consumers not to buy Israeli goods and on businesses not to buy or sell them.

Israeli cultural and academic institutions directly contribute to maintaining, defending or whitewashing the oppression of Palestinians, as Israel deliberately tries to boost its image internationally through academic and cultural collaborations. As part of the boycott, academics, artists and consumers are campaigning against such collaboration and ‘rebranding’. A growing number of artists have refused to exhibit or play in Israel.

http://www.bdsmovement.net/bdsintro

This is not always a completely accurate representation of who they are.

Pajamas Media, for example, claims on its website to have a line-up of influencial bloggers who are widely respected for their punditry.

The reality of what they are is far from that.

Often times, websites and global organizations are not always exactly what they purport to be on their home pages.

on the BDS movement is it that because it is unbiased or more honest in your opinion?

...then it puts into question how any other group identifies themselves. RWers are prone to lying and distortion, but that does not mean that everyone else should be tarred with the same brush as some bunch of lunatics on the internet like Pajamas Media...

Folks on the left don't do that sort of thing at all?

Wasn't Tom MacMaster a LWer?

Incidentally, who wrote that piece on the BDS website that you've reprinted in this thread? It is unattributed.

It seems hard to come across any actual names of people on this website. Do you know who is behind it?

I've got no idea what point you were trying to make if it wasn't what I thought. If you have some evidence that the global BDS movement aren't honest in what they say about themselves, then I'd expect you'd explain what it was.

My point is that the "About us" on the BDS website is not necessarily the be all end all of who they are and what they stand for.

It's not so much that "the global BDS movement" isn't "honest in what they say about themselves" but rather that there is more to the movement than what is written on that website.

I dare say that there are very likely many BDS'ers who agree with what was posted there and others who do not.

I do not think that the information presented on the website that you've reprinted necessarily proves anything about the movement other than what the owners of that particular website (who appear to be anonymous) have decide to present as their version of what the movement is.

Omar Barghouti, for instance, is presented as a leader of the BDS movement, so I would think that any remarks that he made would be equally illustrative of the movement than what was posted on that website.

UNLESS you accept that Palestinians have the right to the entirety of the West Bank. And unless you reject Bibi's hate-based demand that IDF troops be kept in the Jordan River Valley(when it would be enough to have them on the Green Line) in perpetuity.

Given that he's a guy whose spent his entire career working against a Palestinian state. I feel that there's an inherent insult being inflicted on the Palestinians in this in that the idea of swaps is based on getting them to accept the notion that they(the Palestinians)can never be trusted, under ANY circumstances, to not try to attack Israel. Why SHOULD Palestinians of any stripe agree to anything predicated on that assumption? A peace agreement can only be based on the acceptance of the idea that both sides agreeing to it are equally trustworthy. Without that, such an agreement is, essentially, a demand that the side that is treated as less trustworthy must accept, at some level, the notion of peace-as-surrender.

A peace agreement must be based on the idea that such an agreement could actually MEAN that the war would end. The "swaps" idea is based on the idea that that's impossible. If you really assume that Palestinians could never, under any circumstances, be trusted, you should just admit that you don't actually support the idea of peace-because a "peace" proposal that's based on letting the Israeli government perpetually claim to be the "morally superior" side simply can't work.

Also, I'm suspicious of the "swaps" idea because it puts any Palestinian leadership that accepts it in the position of having, to some degree, to humiliate itself, which is dangerous because it puts that leadership at risk of being overthrown by more extreme forces, an event that would bring peace to an end and restore the pre-peace status quo. Even YOU, I hope would agree that little is to be gained by even risking that outcome.

If the Palestinian side felt that they weren't debilitating and weren't designed to make sure the state wasn't contiguous, than I'd trust them. So far, they don't feel that way. Even Fatah doesn't feel that way.

It ought to be enough simply to get the Palestinians to accept Israel's existence within the 1967 lines, in exchange for peace. The Israeli side has no right to ask any more than that. And nothing more than that could be sustainable anyway.

And there's no possible way that getting the "land swaps" could be worth keeping the hostilities going.

My reply was thoughtful and your dismissiveness of it was not called for.

it is being targeted by the BDS movement because it supplies bulldozers to the Israeli military.

As far as I know, Caterpillar does not have any particular association with Judaism.

BTW my CAT stock has done pretty well.

in any event, I think the point was that Caterpillar is not a particularly "Jewish" company.

It's as disgusting as a BDS campaign headed by bigoted leaders that would single out only Islamic nations.

The issue was the treatment of Palestinians. Why do you still refuse to accept that it's not reasonable to expect the world to support the Occupation?

They have never exempted gentiles from the boycott.

....and when the goal of BDS is to eliminate Jewish self-determination (not anyone else's) then that is antisemitic without question. Let's remember that BDS does not just target the settlements or occupation, but also Israeli academics, cultural activities, and any companies doing business with Israel.

The Nazis made up excuses to boycott Jews too.

And due to these twits (including BDS leaders like Omar Barghouti) having no problem routinely comparing Israelis to Nazis (ie, Palestinians living in concentration camps, genocide, etc.) and using just about every other antisemitic trope in the book, I really don't have a problem with the Nazi comparison.

=============

Do you have a problem with their Nazi comparisons?

then that would also warrant comparison to the nazis as well, would it not?

to answer your question: i have a problem with most broad-brush comparisons that are made vis-a-vis the nazis, for several reasons but largely because it is such a tired and well-worn rhetorical ploy that its use almost automatically makes me doubt the intellect of the speaker as well as their argument.

when it comes to mr paul howes of course, doubt is unnecessary. i have heard him speak in public. the man is an unmitigated idiot.

I've never seen you criticize anyone (like these BDS people) for making Israeli-Nazi comparisons or using age old antisemitic tropes in their criticism.

Let me know what you think of Uri Avnery's article cited below...

and i did answer yours.

if singling out or demonising jews is reminiscent of nazism, then surely this should hold true whenever any ethnicity is so treated, yes?

What other ethnicity meets that requirement AND is also being targeted to end its self-determination in their own country?

Also let me know what you think of Uri Avnery's article too...

"What other ethnicity meets that requirement AND is also being targeted to end its self-determination in their own country?"

I suppose the Nazis did threaten the self-determination of the Poles and Czechs in their own country, I'm not sure they could be accused of doing the same to the Jews, given that there was no Jewish state in existence at the time. I presume it is the Nazis' conduct towards the Jews that you are referring to, and not their actions in Sudentenland?

Go on, have another go. I'm sure you'll end up with a semi-coherent argument eventually.

In 1941 in Jedwabne, German-occupied Poland, 340 Polish Jews were massacred by Polish citizens. The officers of the Nazi regime for the most part stood by idly. Some may have participated or given active support to the participants in the pogrom.

In 1982 in Israel-occupied Lebanon, 2000 Palestinians in a refugee camp were massacred by Israel-allied and trained Christian militiamen, who were personally escorted into the camp by Ariel Sharon. Israeli forces stood by idly during the conduct of the massacre.

What is ridiculous is that even making such a comparison is considered anti-semitic by hasbaradoes, who on the other hand feel free to compare the Nazis to just about everybody they dislike.

The fact is BDS only singles out Jews (not Arabs associated with Israel). It employs antisemitic tropes. Its goal is to end Jewish self-determination and destroy Israel.

Almost all Jews (some 99% at least) oppose this double standard, meaning it's antisemitic. Just like if 99% of all women or 99% of all blacks, Arabs, or gays opposed some policy - that policy would have to be anti-women, anti-Arab, etc.

There is no other ethnic group singled out in this manner anymore. This is old school from 70 years ago...

more than a bunch of protestors gathered around a coffee shop? Honestly? And you don't think that the Bosnian Muslims who died on that day were being singled out for their ethnicity?

"There is no other ethnic group singled out in this manner anymore..."

Oh, you poor thing. Truly, it must be such an insurmountable burden. That Sudanese kid on the news lying in the dirt after having his legs hacked off with a machete has nothing on you. Nothing can come close to the pristine nature of your suffering. How you must wish that the whole world wasn't conspiring against you.

...groups with impunity, like they do the Jews?

No?

Were you aware of that situation with Parker before today? Where are other "anti-racist" Greens speaking out against that?

Or is that not really antisemitic either?

what is more reminiscent of Nazism, a protest or thousands of people being butchered in the space of an afternoon?

Do you really wish to argue that any attempted massacre is Nazi like?

And why are you still repeating the same bullshit as you were before you were corrected about the boycott of Max Brenner? It's being boycotted because it's an Israeli company, not because it's a Jewish company...

Does that sound stupid enough for you?

It was: 'what is more reminiscent of Nazism, a protest or thousands of people being butchered in the space of an afternoon?'

It went without saying that those protesters had nothing in common with Naziism. You always knew they were anti-fascist and pro-equal rights for all.

The answer comes as no shock at all. If it had been a different answer, I would have been shocked at the appearance of logic :)

Also, he didn't call Jews Nazis.

And you stated you have no problems with them being compared to Nazis...

For example, are you for a cultural and academic boycott of Israel like he is?

No, I don't support academic or cultural boycotts, though I do support a boycott of any academics from that university campus in Ariel.

I vote ALP in the lower house, despite being disgusted with some of their policies, especially when it comes to refugees. I'm a member of a pretty large union which negotiates with my employer on behalf of us employees, and with the upcoming new pay offer, if it's not keeping up with CPI and the union recommends we vote Yes, I'll go against the grain and vote No. The list could go on and on and on.

Global BDS wants more than just an end to the 44 year occupation, like full RoR and one state.

Would you oppose them if the movement continued beyond an end to occupation?

I said if the occupation ends, I'd have no reason to continue to boycott Israel.

I understand you won't support it after the occupation ends.

But I can only assume you will not oppose it once it continues after the occupation.

If yr looking for something else from me I can't help you

If you can't work it out, then that's yr fucking problem...

I can also choose to not be interested enough to either support or oppose something. And if you say something's stinky, that's a good enough endorsement of it not being stinky, imo

After all, opposing human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Libya is a noble and humanitarian cause - right?

Nothing stinky about singling out those nations and using a little Islamophobic rhetoric in the process?

Me, I'm sick of yr fantasy 'questions', especially given that you don't bother answering questions you get asked...

You wouldn't merely say you would "not support it"?

Nothing else.

Learn to cope...

I generally avoid asking you much at all, as I tend to save the real questions for people who I've found common ground with and who's views don't repulse me...

...is complete bullshit.

But go on, keep supporting it strongly!

And, yes, I will continue to support the global BDS movement and will continue to boycott Israeli companies. I didn't need yr blessing to do that...

...employing Islamophobic rhetoric.

You should be a very strong supporter of that!

Have a great day.

I'll support what I choose to and it's none of yr fucking business...

btw, on the subject of boycotts, I do it on an individual level and don't need any organisation to exist for me to do so. Right now if there were Syrian businesses operating here which supported the Syrian government, I'd boycott it, just the same as I'll continue to boycott Israeli businesses like Max Brenner. No amount of haranguing or idiotic accusations of bigotry will sway my decision...

The one vs. Islamist nations is - and I agree - bigoted and illegitimate, but it's just as bigoted and illegitimate as BDS vs. Israel.

Both single out nations.

Both employ bigoted, demonizing rhetoric.

Yet you support one and oppose the other.

Don't tell me what you think I do or don't support or oppose. Instead of inventing what you wish for other posters to have said, how about you put some effort into reading what I actually said. If after that you feel like talking about what I actually said, be my guest. But stop pretending I've said things I haven't.

'btw, on the subject of boycotts, I do it on an individual level and don't need any organisation to exist for me to do so. Right now if there were Syrian businesses operating here which supported the Syrian government, I'd boycott it, just the same as I'll continue to boycott Israeli businesses like Max Brenner. No amount of haranguing or idiotic accusations of bigotry will sway my decision...'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x359499#359782

When you said I'd probably have no problem with a bigoted BDS campaign singling out only Islamist mideast nations, that implied you would have big issues with such a movement.

Your views are wildly inconsistent.

Why?

'I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem with it...

Me, I'm sick of yr fantasy 'questions', especially given that you don't bother answering questions you get asked...'

That's what my post said, so please stop inventing things or trying to 'read' between the lines.

You seem to have a single-minded focus on totally ignoring what gets said in the posts yr actually replying to right now. If you think that's some smart debate tactic, it's not...

They're the type that lack logic and contain assumptions the person being 'asked' has to agree with. In this case you ignore everything I've said in this thread and inyr 'question' demand that I accept the global BDS movement and Mr Barghouti are antisemitic when Ive already said many times that they're not. To top that off, you then pretend that I did answer the 'question', a tactic I find to be a bit on tje dishonest side. Not really sure where you think this is going, but while you continue to misrepresent my views or pretend I'm entertaining 'questions' that I've specifically said I won't waste my time on I'll be here to correct you on it

I've never heard him speak, and I'm so glad I'm not a member of that union. I'd probably quit in disgust because what he is isn't what the union movement should be. I remember that when I first heard of his opposition to boycotting Israel, I went and looked into it, and the AWU has a long history of boycotting, so clearly he holds Israel to a different standard than others...

1. None of those listed are prominent Australians.

2. Max Brenner is not being boycotted because it's a Jewish business. It's being boycotted because it's an Israeli owned company owned by the Strauss Group that supports the occupation. Only those who see any criticism or protest towards Israel as anti-semitism would try to claim that the boycott is targetting a Jewish business.

There's a Max Brenner store here in Canberra. I won't step foot in it until the occupation ends. If some moron wants to claim that's antisemitic, screw them...

But it's extremely difficult to target Israeli businesses related to the occupation, as just about any Israeli business, University, or cultural event could be connected in some silly way to the occupation.

Here's part of the article below by Uri Avnery:



Also, you say you only oppose the occupation, but BDS goes much farther than that and you support it....

That's like being against Saddam Hussein's rule and saying you therefore must be for the war against Iraq. Like using a machine gun to solve a minor problem. Those opposed to Saddam Hussein didn''t have to necessarily agree with the war on Iraq. So too, you could oppose the settlements/occupation without supporting an antisemitic movement like BDS.

The OP was full of shit when they claimed Max Brenner is being boycotted because it's a Jewish company. That false claim is so demonstrably false that only complete morons would fall for it...

Yes, I do support BDS, because it's not an antisemitic movement. If an intelligent person came along and gave me intelligent and factual evidence to the contrary, then I'd reconsider my support, but flinging round ridiculous analogies about the invasion of Iraq is really quite pathetic...

Max Brenner won't be getting my business :)

...that calls for an end to Jewish self-determination and routinely employs antisemitic (nazi comparison) tropes in its campaign of singling out Israel as a unique evil.

Uri Avnery admits 99.9% of Israeli Jews (and pretty close to that in the US) oppose BDS, so you support that which almost every Jew worldwide opposes.

Why do you keep on repeating the same bullshit even after you've been corrected on it more than several times?

For those reading, here's what the BDS movement is about. Those Nazi comparisons must be in invisible ink, I guess :)

The global movement for a campaign of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) against Israel until it complies with international law and Palestinian rights was initiated by Palestinian civil society in 2005. BDS is a strategy that allows people of conscience to play an effective role in the Palestinian struggle for justice.

For decades, Israel has denied Palestinians their fundamental rights of freedom, equality, and self-determination through ethnic cleansing, colonization, racial discrimination, and military occupation. Despite abundant condemnation of Israeli policies by the UN, other international bodies, and preeminent human rights organisations, the world community has failed to hold Israel accountable and enforce compliance with basic principles of law. Israel’s crimes have continued with impunity.

In view of this continued failure, Palestinian civil society called for a global citizens’ response. On July 9 2005, a year after the International Court of Justice’s historic advisory opinion on the illegality of Israel’s Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), a clear majority of Palestinian civil society called upon their counterparts and people of conscience all over the world to launch broad boycotts, implement divestment initiatives, and to demand sanctions against Israel, until Palestinian rights are recognised in full compliance with international law.

The campaign for boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) is shaped by a rights-based approach and highlights the three broad sections of the Palestinian people: the refugees, those under military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and Palestinians in Israel. The call urges various forms of boycott against Israel until it meets its obligations under international law by:

Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantling the Wall;
Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.
The BDS call was endorsed by over 170 Palestinian political parties, organizations, trade unions and movements. The signatories represent the refugees, Palestinians in the OPT, and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Boycotts target products and companies (Israeli and international) that profit from the violation of Palestinian rights, as well as Israeli sporting, cultural and academic institutions. Anyone can boycott Israeli goods, simply by making sure that they don’t buy produce made in Israel or by Israeli companies. Campaigners and groups call on consumers not to buy Israeli goods and on businesses not to buy or sell them.

Israeli cultural and academic institutions directly contribute to maintaining, defending or whitewashing the oppression of Palestinians, as Israel deliberately tries to boost its image internationally through academic and cultural collaborations. As part of the boycott, academics, artists and consumers are campaigning against such collaboration and ‘rebranding’. A growing number of artists have refused to exhibit or play in Israel.

http://www.bdsmovement.net/bdsintro

And do you not think global BDS is for a one state solution?

The boycott of Max Brenner is because it's an Israeli company, not as the OP dishonestly claimed, a boycott of a business because it's Jewish...

I don't really care if the movement supports one binational state or two states, as long as they're democratic states with equality and human rights for all within their borders...

"I don't really care if the movement supports one binational state or two states,..."

There's no "if".

They support 1 state.

Now how would this 1 secular democratic state be forced onto both populations which oppose that?

See, the bullshit - and we all know it - is that a Palestinian dominated state would in no way be committed to secular, democratic values - meaning it would become just like other countries in the neighborhood - another fascist tyranny.

I thought you may have been able to work out that from my previous post.


See, the bullshit - and we all know it - is that a Palestinian dominated state would in no way be committed to secular, democratic values

Don't you fucking dare to tell me what 'we' all know, especially when it's accompanied by a statement where you express the view that Palestinians aren't capable of being secular or democratic. 'We' all don't know anything of the sort...

on edit: Out of interest, can you point me to where you got that claim that 99.9% of ALL Jews oppose BDS?

As to Palestinians governing one state, the problem is that most Palestinians polled say they're against a secular democracy.

Hamas and Fatah are without any question against it.

But you don't give a shit about what most Palestinians want?

========

As to 99.9% of all Jews, see Uri Avnery's article below and remember that in the US where most other Jews live besides Israel, the most Leftwing pro-Israel group "J Street" opposes BDS. If it's not 99.9% of all Jews worldwide, it's pretty damned close - which makes BDS in the eyes of Jews worldwide antisemitic.

Consider 99% of all Palestinians opposing some policy. One could then conclude such a policy is anti-Palestinian, right?

And Uri Avnery's article said nothing of the sort.

'In Israel, the situation is the very opposite. The Jews amount to more than 80 percent of Israel's citizens, and constitute a majority of some 60 percent throughout the country between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. 99.9 percent of the Jews oppose a boycott on Israel.'

Anyone who claims that Palestinians aren't capable of being secular or democratic is engaging in a bit of anti-Palestinian sentiment and broadbrushing them, imo, and totally opposed to a peaceful resolution to the conflict where Palestinians and Israelis live in peaceful co-existence.

And again you've said something about Fatah (only recently you insisted they were fascists) that's completely untrue. Fatah are a secular organisation...

Shira, I support BDS. Anyone who labels me a Nazi or an antisemite because of it is a fucking moron. As is anyone who thinks it's acceptable to label the Greens as Nazis...

1. Why not just ask other Jews here on the board how many other Jews they know of who support BDS? Personally, I know of no one.

2. I can't imagine you'd be for a policy that 99.9% of all Palestinians were against. Am I right?

3. If Fatah is capable of running a genuinely liberal, secular democracy then what are they waiting for in the W.Bank and why aren't folks like yourself helping to create that democracy? Why hasn't Fatah claimed they want a secular democracy with equal rights for women, gays, minorities, free speech, separation of powers, etc.?

Also yr pulling that 99.99 of all Jews thing out of thin air. Uri Avneryand ince didn't say that at all and I consider it dishonest to continue to make that particular false claim. You also seem to be incapable of grasping the obvious fact that someone opposing BDS does not make it antisemitic. Finally, as with much else you attempt to talk about you have no clue as to what secularism is. Add that to the inability to differentiate between the actions of Israel, and Jews, there appears to be a lot that you get very confused about.

Also, if Fatah is for a secular democracy then what are they waiting for?

Global BDS rhetoric by Omar Barghouti is really no different than the UN's odious vote from 1975 that Zionism is racism. Barghouti and his drooling minions say the same thing when they try to delegitimize Israel, calling it an apartheid nazi state that has no right to exist. THAT, as well as all the antisemitic tropes employed by the BDS movement is classic antisemitism as defined by the EU's working definition. Funny how the bigots don't buy into the EU working definition, isn't it?

He didn't. When it comes to Israelis, I would expect a large number would be opposed to boycotts of Israel, just like I would have issues if Australia were to be boycotted. As I've pointed out more than once, just because someone opposes a boycott of Israel doesn't mean they think boycotting israel is anitsemitic. Anyone who thinks that's a fuckimg idiot IMO.

You clearly have no understanding of what secularism is. Fatah is a secular organization. And only bigots who oppose a peaceful and fair resolution to the conflict try to peddle ugly broadbrush fantasies of the Palestinian people not being capable of having a secular state.

Because I can't imagine you supporting any policy where 99% of any ethnicity were against it.

Like I wrote previously, I know of no Jews who support BDS outside of the few I see on blogs. It would be interesting to ask other Jews in the US or UK here on I/P how many Jews they personally know who support BDS, wouldn't it? Out of the hundreds or thousands of Jews we know, I doubt it would be more than a handful - which makes 99% appear quite reasonable.

You think Fatah is running a secular democracy now? They're secular and they had democratic elections several times now, right? So the W.Bank now is your idea of a secular democracy that you're in favor of? With equal rights for all? How's that working out in the W.Bank so far under Fatah rule?

I don't give a shit if it were 10% or 100% because the boycott is aimed at the Israeli government, not Jews as you've falsely claimed in this thread....

I know Fatah is a secular organisation. I know that doesn't gel with yr fantasy of Palestinians being rabid antisemites who aren't capable of living in a secular democracy without destroying it, but it's reality, and I'm not really sure how you come up with such crap. Secularism was the driving force in Palestinian nationalism until Hamas appeared with their religious driven ideology. Groups like Fatah and the PFLP are definately secular in nature...

Here's a recent poll:
http://www.camera.org/images_user/pdf/luntz.camera%20poll.results.final.pdf

Questions 29 and 30 deal with boycotting, but not about BDS involving Israeli products, culture, and academics. When J-Street and Noam Chomsky oppose BDS, it's easy to see how close to 99% of American Jews would also be against it.

======

Question: Is Fatah running a secular democracy NOW in the W.Bank that you would consider the model for a future 1-state after full RoR? After all, Fatah is secular and they've had democratic elections, so.....? Yes or No?

I dunno. I thought I'd been crystal clear. What bit of what I said multiple times now aren't you grasping? I can type even slower if it'll help you get it...

Answer: Huh? That makes absolutely no sense...

Can you think of any?

As to Fatah's secularism, they are running a secular democracy now - correct? THAT is what you and the BDS people are looking forward to in your imposed 1-state solution after full RoR. Correct?

Are they randomly auto-generated things?

...to avoid and deflect questions asked of you.

The question Shaay asked you wasn't. Apart from one other poster in this forum, no-one else fires off a barrage of silly 'questions', and most are genuinelly interested in having a discussion rather than haranguing people, so I treat them with respect and do answer their questions.

You really don't see how this movement's demands are at all anti-semitic?

Obviously, my arguments as to why it's antisemitic aren't convincing enough.

You want everyone to believe that daring to boycott Israeli companies is actually boycotting Jews akin to the Nazis. It's the actions of the Israeli government that's being protested, not because people are Jewish. You've been told this quite a few times now, but still choose to ignore it...

...and only that ethnicity, while employing bigoted rhetoric vs. that ethnicity is by definition bigoted. Whether the nation being singled out is Jewish, Muslim, or Black.

I'm in a chatty mood today to distract myself from doing some RL stuff I like to avoid, so I'll address each of yr points one by one...

'Singling' out one state isn't bigoted at all. The whole idea of boycotts is to focus attention and express opposition to what a company or state is doing. Back when South Africa was boycotted, I doubt there were demands that anyone boycotting it also boycott other countries, lest they be labelled bigots. Boycotting Israel as a way of opposing the occupation is a boycott based on political ideology. If it was based on ethnicity, I'd be well and truly distancing myself, but it's not. Also, the global BDS movement was founded by Palestinians. Why do you think they'd single out Israel? Could it possibly have something to do with the way Israel has treated the Palestinians?

I'm not sure how any movement can have such power that it denies self-determination to any ethnicity. It's governments that have the power to do such things, not grassroots movements. And I'm absolutely sure that opposing the occupation isn't denying self-determination to any group, and any group that views its own self-determination at being at the expense of denying self-determination to another group has my contempt.

You keep on claiming that a movement that I'm a small part of keeps on employing bigoted rhetoric about Jews, yet you don't supply any examples that back up that claim.

1. A global BDS movement that only focuses on one country can hardly be considered a movement committed to universal human rights. Maybe they should call themselves the Palestinian BDS movement. It's like a human rights organization claiming to be for universal human rights focusing only on one nation. Any global or universal movement that singles out one nation is applying a double standard. Better that a global BDS movement for universal human rights focus attention elsewhere as well, especially against nations with FAR worse human rights records than Israel (and that's most nations). BDS vs. one nation is big time "look over there" type whataboutery that deflects criticism from every other nation...

2. The BDS movement is committed to denying self-determination to Jews when it calls for one state. They are not only against the 44 year old occupation but against the 63 year occupation, the very existence of the Jewish state. Being against self-determination for Jews is like being against equal rights, especially since BDS is not against self-determination against any other ethnic group on the planet. Also, you wrongly claimed Israel's self-determination is at the expense of another group's self-determination and that is false. Israel has offered many times to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state, even before the 1947 partition plan.

3. As to BDS bigoted rhetoric, let's see what your thoughts are on this example:

The chief spokesperson in the trade union movement for “BDS” in South Africa, Bongani Masuku, has been found guilty of antisemitic hate speech by the South African human Rights commission, a body set up by the South African state to fight racism.
http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/hate-speech-ruling-against-bongani-masuku/

Also, posts #24 and #25 show where Omar Barghouti, the co-founder and main spokesperson for BDS, refers to Israeli "Nazi" policy, which is ridiculously antisemitic. Or am I wrong?

I kind of expect that it will disintegrate into a bout of 'you believe (insert something here I don't believe) within a few posts. In order not to have it go that way, let's agree to reread what we both say before we post and not direct anything at each other that's about you or me, but continue to focus on the topic of BDS. I doubt anyone but you and I are reading this exchange anyway. Sound good?

1. There's been quite a few boycotts of countries over the years, especially if sanctions (the official, high level stuff that governments do) are included. They all tend to focus on one country, and like the global BDS movement, for specific political and humanitarian reasons. Examples are the global boycott of South Africa, a boycott by the American colonists back in the 18th century aimed at Britain, boycotts in Australia of Indonesia to protest Shapelle Corby's sentence for drug smuggling, divestment from Iran, sanctions aimed at (this is a list of a few countries Australia has imposed sanctions on) Zimbabwe, Libya, Syria, Fiji, Myammar, North Korea, and the Balkans. Back when I worked opening tenders for the government, the sanctions against the Balkans were in place, and the tender documents included information about the sanctions and then asked if any materials or services would be coming from there. If the answer was yes, they were automatically excluded from the tender process. I didn't sit there muttering under my breath that Australia was singling out the Balkans, etc. As for the name of the BDS movement we're discussing, I wouldn't care if it were called the Palestinian BDS movement, as I'd still be boycotting Israel regardless of what it was called or if it didn't even exist...

2. No, I don't think wanting one binational state that's committed to treating all citizens as equal regardless of religion, ethnicity etc is denying self-determination to anyone. I see a lot of problems with the belief that to have Jewish self-determination, Israel must have a large majority of Jewish citizens. At some point in the future (absent something massive like the Nakba happening) natural population growth in Israel will tip the scales and there may not be a Jewish majority. While I waver between support for a two-state solution (that's the pragmatist in me), and one binational state (the idealist), I do believe that Israel viewing itself as a Jewish state, and being a state where Jewish culture and holidays are done the same way as Christian holidays and shit are done here for example, then there is Jewish self-determination. Why I want the two-state solution to happen, despite the best attempts of successive Israeli governments to put a spanner in the works, is because having read a fair bit about Theodor Herzl and his rationale for a homeland for the Jewish people, being something that they wouldn't just be fleeing persecution to more persecution elsewhere, and that as a collective nation gathered together they'd be able to protect themselves. I'd prefer to see Israel be a state within its current borders, and what is now the Green Line become an official border, living alongside an equally independent Palestinian state, especially as that seems to be what the majority of Israelis and Palestinians want...

3. Well, that South African guy sounds like a bit of a wanker, imo. I assume Mr. Masuku would have lived under apartheid in South Africa, and it's always disturbing to me when someone who's suffered bigotry then turns around at aims it at another group...

I don't agree at all that making comparisons of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto is automatically antisemitic. I think it's hyperbolic and incorrect, as are the claims that Israel is committing genocide, but while I've seen antisemites use the comparisons (you can usually spot them coz they'll accompany it with things like Jews controlling the US government), well-meaning people also do it out of things like not being aware of how bad the Warsaw Ghetto was, and it's some knee-jerk thing that comes out of their anger at the situation in Palestine. I'd say Mr. Barghouti, being Palestinian, may be more frustrated and angry than most, and he has good reason to be. My issue with the comparisons is that there's no need to resort to hyperbole when the reality is ugly enough standing on its own...

...is like arguing against equal rights and saying that's not racist either. Zionism is equal rights for Jews as a nation and the global BDS people won't stop until they've ended equal rights for Jews. David Hirsh put it well here:



Another problem with Bongani Masuku is that he's still very active in the BDS movement. He still works closely and travels with Omar Barghouti. To wit, neither Barghouti or anyone else in BDS has condemned or criticized Masuku.

Equating Jews with Nazis is straight out racism and incitement as Nazis are evil and the goal is to make it as though Jews are evil. These same people (like Barghouti) who equate Jews with Nazis argue Jews misuse the holocaust in some perverse way to justify what they do to Palestinians. It's very ugly bigotry.

=====

Putting it altogether, when BDS singles out Israel, resorts to lying and slandering Jews, aims to reverse equal rights (only vs. Jews) and employs other antisemitic rhetoric as well (according to the EUMC working definition as well as every organization committed to fighting antisemitism) then it's hard to argue BDS isn't antisemitic.

If the same were aimed only at Islamic nations, it would be just as bigoted.

And I've got no idea who that David Hirsh is, but what he's written is mindless crap. I mean, who's this *you* he's accusing of all those things? The BDS movement? If so, he's a complete liar, as the BDS movement does NOT do say those things...

So what if Mr Masuku is still active in the BDS movement? Has he repeated his ugly performance again? If it was something that had happened more than once, I think everyone should be distancing themselves from him, but if it was a one-off, and especially if he apologised for what he said, I'm not seeing that it's a big deal..

No, as I said in my previous post: 'I don't agree at all that making comparisons of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto is automatically antisemitic. I think it's hyperbolic and incorrect, as are the claims that Israel is committing genocide, but while I've seen antisemites use the comparisons (you can usually spot them coz they'll accompany it with things like Jews controlling the US government), well-meaning people also do it out of things like not being aware of how bad the Warsaw Ghetto was, and it's some knee-jerk thing that comes out of their anger at the situation in Palestine. I'd say Mr. Barghouti, being Palestinian, may be more frustrated and angry than most, and he has good reason to be. My issue with the comparisons is that there's no need to resort to hyperbole when the reality is ugly enough standing on its own...'

I've already explained in my previous post that singling out one country is what most boycotts and sanctions do, so Israel isn't alone in being singled out. I haven't seen anything coming from them lying and slandering Jews. I've seen plenty of criticism of Israel, though. Also, they do not work to reverse equal rights for Jews at all. Their focus is on the state of Israel, not Jews. And they most definately do NOT employ antisemitic rhetoric...

Such an evil, disgusting state has no right to exist, and indeed BDS is against any 2 state solution keeping Israel intact as a Jewish state. What's difficult about this?

"So what" if Masuku is still active and works closely with Barghouti in BDS? It's "no big deal" he's still active as a leader? How disgusting! His apology was mandated within a 15 day period lest he suffer more consequences! It damned sure wasn't sincere!

Making Israel (the Jewish State) out to be an apartheid, nazi state is lying and slandering Jews in order to delegitimize the Jewish state of Israel and make its dissolution a moral imperative. Same lying and slander associated recently with the Goldstone Report and the Marmara incident (both incidents proven to be lying against Jews). Years ago it was the Muhammad al-Dura hoax and Jenin "massacre". All lies and slander vs. Jews that is every bit as disgusting as making outrageous, villifying, hyperbolic and lying claims when inciting against Arab nations. That you refuse to see this is astonishing! Holocaust inversion (making Jews and their grandchildren out to be Nazis) is pure filth - especially when the Nazi comparison is entirely used to portray Israel - and only the Jewish state of Israel - in such an evil manner. That's the BDS movement you refuse to see.

What's difficult about all this?

:shrug:

This conversation reminds me about our talk WRT the US boat to Gaza (where they hosted Gilad Atzmon to fundraise) and the rest of the flotilla which was backed and coordinated by Hamas operatives and their disgusting jew-hating allies (like the ones singing death to Jews on last year's flotilla). The activists are eager each year to get it on and party with Hamas as they did when they were awarded with medals of honor in 2008 for their efforts.

But you didn't seem to have any particular problem with that either.

====

Do you see all this criticism of hatred within the pro-Palestinian movement as some dishonest and disgusting show of bad faith to silence legitimate criticism of Israel?

What would you say if I denied every bit of anti-Muslim or anti-Arab bigotry by Rubin, for example?

Lastly, global BDS targets every aspect of Israel and is without question collective punishment. How can you not speak out against that?

Only three posts ago I made the following suggestion: 'I kind of expect that it will disintegrate into a bout of 'you believe (insert something here I don't believe) within a few posts. In order not to have it go that way, let's agree to reread what we both say before we post and not direct anything at each other that's about you or me, but continue to focus on the topic of BDS. I doubt anyone but you and I are reading this exchange anyway. Sound good?'

Clearly it didn't sound good, as I spotted a 'But you didn't seem to have any particular problem with that either.' amidst a flurry of things like 'what would you say' 'how can you not'. You should have just said you weren't interested in any attempt at substantive discussion of the topic, and I would have given yr invitation to have a substantive discussion a miss and focused on the threads happening now where there's some actual civil and substantive discussion happening...

I will address two areas of yr post, though, and that's the continuing conflation of Israel with Jews, and also the sheer hypocrisy of condemning anyone who meets with Hamas, while admitting in this forum not too long ago that they don't care that someone they admire and refer to regularly participated in the making of an anti-Muslim film and associates with Pamela Geller.

The global BDS movement hasn't branded Israel an 'apartheid/Nazi' state, nor do they argue against self-determination for Jews. That's all a figment of yr imagination created with the burning need to label just about anything and anyone who criticises Israel as being antisemites. Supporting one binational state with equal rights for all is clearly not arguing against equal rights for anyone. I'm positive you don't understand that when people talk about equal rights (which you did a post or so back), they're not talking about equal rights for all members of one group only, they're talking about equal rights for everyone, regardless of what ethnicity, race, religion they are. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to be trying to paint someone like Martin Buber as an antisemite who was opposed to Jewish self-determination because of his support for one binational state...

You've been told this before, but it bears repeating when you come out with an entire paragraph deliberately conflating Israel and Jews. Opposition to Israel (or as you said repeatedly 'the Jewish state) is NOT opposition to Jews. I don't know what sort of warped logic can come up with something that claims that calling the destruction and death in Jenin a massacre is showing hatred against Jews. Same goes for the rest of the 'examples' you gave, where it appears that the avalanche of words 'lie' and 'slander' must be scoring the user some sort of frequent flier points somewhere. What yr doing is applying a different standard to Israel than you do to any other state with yr insistence that when Israel is criticised, it's actually Jews being criticised, because in doing that yr trying to make it so people will be reluctant to criticise Israel's actions lest they be labelled antisemitic for doing so. And if we turn it round and apply the same sensitivity you have to criticism of Israel to the Palestinians, anyone who criticises the Palestinians (eg references to 'Pallywood', calling the killing of a young Palestinian boy a hoax, etc) would be someone who is expressing bigotry towards Arabs and Palestinians...

On hypocrisy, it is outright and blatant hypocrisy to say that it doesn't matter who someone you admire hangs out with or that he's participated in the making of a bigoted anti-Muslim film, then turn around and harshly judge people who meet Hamas and try to label anyone at all associated with the BDS movement as being admirers of Hamas. I dunno, maybe if the guys who met Hamas ever make a film with David Duke about how much they hate Jews, then you can get back to me. Until then, it's all just too hypocritical for words...

Jewish self-determination is to be replaced by Palestinian self-determination...


http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17550910903237145

The paragraph above is filled with malicious lies and distortions, dehumanization and demonization.

Barghouti calls Israel an apartheid state


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Barghouti#Career

So BDS is in favor of Palestinian self-determination, though not by 2 states, but rather by denying Jews self-determination.

The apartheid label is all part of a vicious demonization and delegitimization campaign making it a moral imperative to destroy the evil, colonialist, racist, settler apartheid state with nazi policies.

Nasty shit.

Nowhere does he say that BDS is against Jewish self-determination. Yr just making shit up in the hope it sticks. Clearly if one binational state with equal rights for all can be seen as fulfilling Palestinian self-determination, the same applies to Jewish self-determination. Unless yr going to try to argue that Jewish self-determination is somehow different than self-determination for anyone else?

It's definately not antisemitic to compare Israel's policies towards the Palestinians in the West Bank to apartheid in South Africa. No more than it's anti-Arab to compare the treatment of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries to apartheid. And you've done the latter comparison many times in this forum...

http://electronicintifada.net/content/boycotts-work-interview-omar-barghouti/8263

It's all about Palestinian self-determination, not Jewish self-determination.

Also, he's saying ISRAEL is an apartheid state for policies WITHIN Israel, not just the W.Bank. You REALLY need to read more about a BDS movement you so strongly support and not impose YOUR own views onto it.

From the same link:




It's an obscenely antisemitic movement.

Not only does Barghouti dehumanize all Israeli Jews, he resorts to lies and slander in order to rile up incitement against a state so evil and racist in his eyes that it has no right to exist.

By it's very nature, it'd be binational, whether he wants to call it that or not. As for the rest of the post title, that's you putting words in someone else's mouth yet again....

Anyway, why would someone like you, to who it's all about Jewish self-determination 24/7, complain if anyone focused on Palestinian self-determination?

I don't give a fuck whether he also thinks apartheid style policies are happening inside Israel itself. I might disagree, but it's not antisemitic to believe it. I certainly wouldn't stop supporting the BDS movement because of it. I'm not sure why anyone would think I'd need to...

'Obscenely antisemitic', 'dehumanise all Israeli Jews', 'lies and slander'. Repeating that same old bullshit over and over again doesn't hide the fact that you haven't provided a shred of evidence that would persuade any reasonable person that the movement I support or Mr Barghouti are any of those things. This is just like the other thread where you claimed Ray Hanania has written antisemitic things and when asked to show some examples, you didn't come up with anything at all...

...is not a crude generalization and is in no way bigoted or dehumanizing?

Barghouti clearly stated he's against binationalism, as Jews don't deserve self-determination like Palestinians do. You have no problem with him saying that?

I'm all for Palestinian self-determination in their own state alongside the Jewish one. Both peoples would have SD.

You don't give a fuck that he lies and slanders Israel routinely in his writings and speeches? Why would such a peaceful person do such a thing, Violet?

And in both cases, no it's not a crude generalisation coming from an oppressed people...

I've already discussed Barghouti's views on binationalism and a secular democratic state with equal rights for all. I suggest you actually go and read it.


No, I'd give a bit of a fuck if he did lie, but he doesn't. And my response would be that I wouldn't bother reading what he wrote, but seeing I don't really read what he writes now, there wouldn't be much change. Which would be different from yr reaction to the Islamophobic writing of Rubin where you still admire him and post links to his articles in this forum...

Here it is from the EUMC working def'n:

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Your logic is such that one could argue Israelis are oppressed victims of terror and can say whatever they like about all Palestinians collectively. Not even the kindest victims from Sderot should get away with that.

----------

Again, Omar Barghouti stated very clearly that only Palestinians merit SD. Barghouti is very much AGAINST a binational state as he made clear that Jews aren't on equal footing with the indigenous Palestinians. Meaning, Jews don't rate for SD. The Palestinians would host them and treat them fairly and equally, that's all. Nothing about Jewish SD.



That, in addition to calling Israel racist, is yet another violation of the EUMC working def'n:

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

So the co-founder of BDS and main spokesperson for the movement is spewing antisemitic rhetoric.

More of that holding Israel to a different standard than other countries, I see....

I'm not sure how a Palestinian referring to Israelis as oppressors and colonisers is holding Jews collectively responsible for the actions of the state of Israel. I'm guessing it's coming from yr constant equating of Israeli with Jew. What that working definition (and you should take note that it has no legal standing and aren't rules) means is that someone who blames Jews, no matter where they are in the world, for the actions of Israel. He's not doing that, or even referring to Jews. In fact, I just went back and checked and noticed that 'the acquired rights of the colonial settlers' could merely be referring to the settlers, or if he's talking the same way some indigenous activists here do, referring to all of the population that's descendants of colonial settlers. Any way you want to look at it, trying to twist it into him calling all Jews around the world 'colonial settlers' doesn't work...

Uh, I think there's a fair bit of racism at play in Israel. Is saying that antisemitic (I'll give you some time to refer to yr vast library of definitions and flowcharts before you respond).

Yr opinion isn't fact, something that you appear to have all sorts of trouble accepting. If he spewed antisemitic rhetoric, I wouldn't have a bar of him, just like I wouldn't have a bar of someone who spews Islamophobic rhetoric like Barry Rubin, who you labelled as a 'good guy'...

"Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor."

That's the global BDS movement in a nutshell, as Omar Barghouti has made clear many times over.

It's a movement whose leaders routinely spew antisemitic rhetoric.

As I pointed out in the post you replied to, you do have a habit of throwing false accusations around and then calling them *facts*. In the case of the previous post, you made an accusation that just wasn't true, and also showed that you hold Israel to a different standard than you do Australia.*

You really have to try to understand that how you interpret something is not how everyone else must interpret it.

Again, on yr repeated accusation that he spews antisemitic rhetoric. I'm wondering to myself why someone spewing anti-Muslim bigotry doesn't stop you admiring them.

* I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of explanation of why it's hate when the same thing is said about Israel but not hate when it's said about Australia...

...antisemitic rhetoric.

There's nothing creative about my "interpretations" either. When your sources routinely violate at least 4-5 different examples in the EUMC working definition, the problem isn't me - it's the sources you admire.

And I'm not playing your game WRT whether hating Australians = hating Jews or whether I admire those who spew anti-Muslim bigotry. That has nothing to do with the clear examples of antisemitic rhetoric and hate speech that you're excusing. I can't imagine you have ANY issue at all with what other major institutions define as racism or xenophobia. Only antisemitism. Something is VERY wrong here, Violet. When those criticizing Israel cannot refrain from making the most outrageous, irrational, and inciteful rhetoric that DOES cause harm to Jews, it's fairly obvious that spewers of such rhetoric don't give a shit how their words cause harm to Jews. That makes them antisemites.

At the very least we should agree hate rhetoric should be condemned. Whether those spewing it are bigots or well meaning folk who really don't know better is another issue, but treating them all the same isn't right. Agreed?

is he for the equal boycotting of all Palestinian goods until his demands are met as well? Or just specifically Israeli/Jewish goods?

for the de-Zionization of Palestine. Zionism is THE movement of Jewish self-determination. And a bi-national state clearly violates the tenets of Palestinian self-determination as well.

I've posted the Introducing the BDS movement page quite a few times now. I'll do it again, so feel free to explain what you think is antisemitic about it and why I should agree with you about it...

The global movement for a campaign of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) against Israel until it complies with international law and Palestinian rights was initiated by Palestinian civil society in 2005, and is coordinated by the Palestinian BDS National Committee (BNC), established in 2007. BDS is a strategy that allows people of conscience to play an effective role in the Palestinian struggle for justice.

For decades, Israel has denied Palestinians their fundamental rights of freedom, equality, and self-determination through ethnic cleansing, colonization, racial discrimination, and military occupation. Despite abundant condemnation of Israeli policies by the UN, other international bodies, and preeminent human rights organisations, the world community has failed to hold Israel accountable and enforce compliance with basic principles of law. Israel’s crimes have continued with impunity.

In view of this continued failure, Palestinian civil society called for a global citizens’ response. On July 9 2005, a year after the International Court of Justice’s historic advisory opinion on the illegality of Israel’s Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), a clear majority of Palestinian civil society called upon their counterparts and people of conscience all over the world to launch broad boycotts, implement divestment initiatives, and to demand sanctions against Israel, until Palestinian rights are recognised in full compliance with international law.

The campaign for boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) is shaped by a rights-based approach and highlights the three broad sections of the Palestinian people: the refugees, those under military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and Palestinians in Israel. The call urges various forms of boycott against Israel until it meets its obligations under international law by:

Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantling the Wall;
Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.
The BDS call was endorsed by over 170 Palestinian political parties, organizations, trade unions and movements. The signatories represent the refugees, Palestinians in the OPT, and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Boycotts target products and companies (Israeli and international) that profit from the violation of Palestinian rights, as well as Israeli sporting, cultural and academic institutions. Anyone can boycott Israeli goods, simply by making sure that they don’t buy produce made in Israel or by Israeli companies. Campaigners and groups call on consumers not to buy Israeli goods and on businesses not to buy or sell them.

Israeli cultural and academic institutions directly contribute to maintaining, defending or whitewashing the oppression of Palestinians, as Israel deliberately tries to boost its image internationally through academic and cultural collaborations. As part of the boycott, academics, artists and consumers are campaigning against such collaboration and ‘rebranding’. A growing number of artists have refused to exhibit or play in Israel.

Divestment means targeting corporations complicit in the violation of Palestinian rights and ensuring that the likes of university investment portfolios and pension funds are not used to finance such companies. These efforts raise awareness about the reality of Israel’s policies and encourage companies to use their economic influence to pressure Israel to end its systematic denial of Palestinian rights.

Sanctions are an essential part of demonstrating disapproval for a country’s actions. Israel’s membership of various diplomatic and economic forums provides both an unmerited veneer of respectability and material support for its crimes. By calling for sanctions against Israel, campaigners educate society about violations of international law and seek to end the complicity of other nations in these violations.

The BDS National Committee

The efforts to coordinate the BDS campaign, that began to grow rapidly as soon as/once the 2005 Call was made public, culminated in the first Palestinian BDS Conference held in Ramallah in November 2007. Out of this conference emerged the BDS National Committee (BNC) as the Palestinian coordinating body for the BDS campaign worldwide. See the BNC page for more details.

http://www.bdsmovement.net/bdsintro

Obama's actions at the UNSC on 2/17/2011 which amounted IMO to talking out of both sides of his mouth simultaneously, along with Netanyahu's refusal to cooperate in halting settlement construction and what IMO was his my way or the highway stance on what he laughably refers to as negotiations (he dictated his terms in front of Congress), have dashed most hopes for those that actually wanted an end to the occupation, rather than what we have now

That being said it would appear that BDS is gaining momentum and is apparently having some effect around the time that article was written there was much ass-shaking about how BDS can't affect Israel haha ect, thanks for confirming that for us

You're the colonialist imposing your view, something most of them oppose - as if you know better than them.

Lastly, BDS isn't shit and never will be. Jews will never yield to its demands no matter how strong the movement gets. Anyone for it, knowing full well what it's all about, is a fucking disgrace...

BDS is aimed at the state of Israel, not at Jews. Yr continual conflating of Israelis with Jews is quite telling and a tactic popular with antisemites.

Try reading and responding to what actually gets said to you instead of ignoring it and doing bot-like 'but what about them!!!!' You appear to not care about or understand the ugliness of conflating Israelis and Jews. Will you be needing me to explain it to you?

It's not going to work.

Here's why yr habit of conflating Jews with Israelis is so ugly and dangerous. It's a tactic also used by antisemites to make Jews and Israel indistinguishable so they can blame Jews for the actions of the Israeli government. You use it to try to stifle criticism of Israel by trying to portray criticism and protest against Israel for its actions against the Palestinians as being antisemitic. Regardless of what the goals of the conflater are, they're doing something that's very ugly and should be condemned by all....

...is not conflating anything. Nor is it stinky.

It's legit politics vs. nation states and not bigotry vs. any ethnic group.

Just BDS vs. the middle east countries excluding Israel. And no BDS vs. China or N.Korea.....

No conflating, right?

I explained what was so ugly and dangerous about the tendency you have to conflate them, yet you totally ignore it. What are you having trouble grasping about something that should be obvious even to you?

...that only singles out Islamist nations.

I'm pretty sure you'd have no problem conflating S.Arabia with Muslims or conflating Libya with Muslims.

I'd like to hope that even a bit of what I said seeped in and you do understand how ugly and dangerous it is to conflate Jews with Israelis. But that would be overly optimistic given the way yr intent on trying to divert attention away from it...

...and headed by Islamophobes. After all, there's NO conflation and nothing stinky going on there...

Well, I believe you now realize how stinky the BDS movement vs. Israel is.

Keep supporting it strongly!

Here's what I said:

'What's predictable is you trying to deflect away from conflating Jews with Israelis

I'd like to hope that even a bit of what I said seeped in and you do understand how ugly and dangerous it is to conflate Jews with Israelis. But that would be overly optimistic given the way yr intent on trying to divert attention away from it...'

Twisting that into something completely different takes a hell of squirming and inability to comprehend what is said...

I dislike being harangued and I'm not sure what part of me telling you I'm not playing yr stupid game isn't sinking in

I point out that 2 years ago when Avnery wrote the article there was more hope for the I/P situation and that makes me a colonist, okay then if you say so

What else do you call that other than a colonialist viewpoint?

You know better what's good for the region than the people over there...

is a very real fear of BDS a movement that may well pickup a good deal of steam after the UN vote on creating 2 states one for Israeli's and one for Palestinians
that being said once Palestinians do have a viable state the BDS will lose momentum even if as you claim the leaders wish to continue it for other reasons

Hundreds of BDS demonstrators gathered again yesterday at Melbourne's Central Business District to protest against the attack and arrest of 19 nonviolent BDS supporters on July 1st as reported here by Kim Bullimore. Victorian Police had previously arrested demonstrators at the Max Brenner cafe, owned by the Israeli Strauss Group, which directly funds two IDF brigades, the Golani and Givati brigades.

The 19 protestors now face exorbitant fines of up to $30,000. According to organizers CAIA (Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid), yesterday's demonstration expanded to approximately 500 people, 4 times as many as the rally 30 days ago. Starting at the Victorian State Library demonstrators marched through the city streets first to the Max Brenner in Melbourne Central, and then onto Max Brenner in the QV courtyard to show support for those arrested and assert their legal right to continue protesting against those who support and fund Israeli apartheid.



There were no arrests this time although police were in attendance including 8 mounted officers.

Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd, visited Max Brenner in mid-July for a photo media opportunity misrepresenting the intentions of BDS in the Australian press as a boycott of "Jewish businesses".

"As an individual citizen - that is me, K. Rudd - I am here because I object to the boycotting of Jewish businesses," he said. Mr Rudd - meeting with Melbourne Ports MP Michael Danby - said anyone with historical memory should deplore boycotts of Jewish businesses. Samah Sabawi from Australians for Palestine said Max Brenner was a legitimate target for the boycott, even though her organisation did not take part in protests. "I think Kevin Rudd has not given Palestinian civil society a good hearing," Ms Sabawi said.

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/07/500-protesters-join-boycott-demo-at-max-brenner-store-in-australia.html

“these Jews provide cover for extreme actions if they occur. If there’s a sniff of you being critical of Israel, such Jews will attack you and cut you loose.''


http://www.jewishnews.net.au/parker-wins-balmain-but-not-support-of-the-bds/20136



FUCK YOU AND YOUR JEW HATRED ,MISTER !

I suspect there are no "anti-racist" Greens in the movement calling for this piece of shit to step down.

Disgraceful.

Here's Antony Loewenstein defending the bigot, and note how Loewenstein claims Parker had no issue publicizing that hate screed...
http://newmatilda.com/2011/04/04/loewenstein-responds-news-ltd

The moronic comments from Loewenstein's idiot fan club are a hoot too.

You can not explain away antisemitism, my friend !

while in the link which you it would appear cut and pasted the quote from in the body of your post it is not capitalized in fact it appears your quote starts with something taken from the middle of a more complete sentence

let's look at the complete statement from Lee Parker shall we?

The new Greens MP told Sky News on Monday he stood by the NSW Greens policy of supporting the BDS campaign. He also refuted claims of anti-Semitism arising from the New Matilda interview, where he was quoted as saying in response to extreme actions against The Greens, “these Jews provide cover for extreme actions if they occur. If there’s a sniff of you being critical of Israel, such Jews will attack you and cut you loose.

“I have a fantastic working relationship with the local Chavurah in my community,” he said. “I’ve worked with the Jewish Board of Deputies on a range of issues.”

Parker has been involved in a joint peace-building project with both Jews and Palestinians in the Leichhardt Council, where he served as mayor for more than two years.

Meanwhile, the Greens leader distanced himself from comments by Greens senator-elect Lee Rhiannon that the party should have campaigned more strongly for an Israel boycott.

Especially given yr tendency to conflate Israelis and Jews the way you do. Seeing you posted the link to Mr Lowestein's article about the quote, if you'd read it, you'd see what context it was in, so I'd like you to explain what the problem is you have with it and hopefully do it in a coherent way...

When you go on about Jews when yr conflating Israelis and Jews, I do sit there and replace Jews with Muslims. But you don't have a problem with it when you do it, so why do you have a problem when someone else does it?

on edit: You clearly didn't read the article you posted a link to. Mr Lowenstein was the person who was interviewing Mr Parker. He took notes and pointed out that News Limited (that's a Murdoch company, though I'm sure as with everything else RW, you don't care about Murdoch's politics) had taken what was said out of its context. Given the way the OP (the News Limited flagship) lied about the boycott of Max Brenner, I have no faith in the honesty or credibility of stuff coming from News Limited when it comes to Israel.

So here it is again. Try and concentrate this time.

'When you go on about Jews when yr conflating Israelis and Jews, I do sit there and replace Jews with Muslims. But you don't have a problem with it when you do it, so why do you have a problem when someone else does it?

You clearly didn't read the article you posted a link to. Mr Lowenstein was the person who was interviewing Mr Parker. He took notes and pointed out that News Limited (that's a Murdoch company, though I'm sure as with everything else RW, you don't care about Murdoch's politics) had taken what was said out of its context. Given the way the OP (the News Limited flagship) lied about the boycott of Max Brenner, I have no faith in the honesty or credibility of stuff coming from News Limited when it comes to Israel.'

I'd have a VERY big problem with some Islamophobic BDS movement singling out only Muslim mideast nations.

Very stinky.

And you sure as hell DO conflate Jews and Israelis and have done it more than a few times in this thread.

...if some nasty BDS campaign singling out only mideast Muslim majority populations were headed by someone like Daniel Pipes?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=359499&mesg_id=359782

Here's a big tip for you. When you get told by someone that they're not interested in playing some game where stupid fantasy 'what if???' 'questions' get fired at them, don't just go somewhere else in the thread and ask the same thing again. It's not a good look...

It's as stinky as BDS singling out only majority Muslim mideast nations and headed by Islamophobes.

I know you realize that, Violet.

Have a peachy day!

Yr so intent on painting boycotting Israel as being antisemitic that yr not even bothering to read anything you reply to. And it's delusional to claim you know what people think when you so clearly get it so abysmally wrong all the time. If I point out that I'm sick of the stupid 'questions' based on fantasy and won't be answering them, that doesn't give you free reign to invent what you wish I had answered with...

It is about a vile antisemitic statement that is now being 'spun' to be A-OK.

Seeing as how she conflates Jews and Israelis, I was interested to see what she would come up with. She came back with some vague reply telling me to replace Jew with Muslim, and I told her the same can be done to her many posts where she says Jews instead of Israelis.

You haven't noticed that she posted a link to an article where the person who'd carried out the interview pointed out that the quote was taken out of context. Also, I'm not sure how even if it was antisemitic you'd have a problem with anyone spinning it to be okay, given that yr reaction to someone saying 'I hate Muslims' was 'Not Islamaphobe. Just anti-Homophobe.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x358701#358855

That's definately something that is spinning a vile disgusting anti-Muslim comment to be A-OK...

To impose your solution on the "natives" even if the vast majority of them are against it?

I'm sorry I said it in an accusatory, insulting manner.

That was further unthread where she said she had no problems with the Greens and supporters of the boycott being called Nazis.

Not that I'm sure what that post of yrs had to do with my reply to 'King_David'. Would you like to try addressing what yr replying to?

post I made in the past.



(I am proud to be anti-homophobic btw ,as every progressive should be,and we should withold support from any regime or group that is homophobic,unequivically)

Trying to claim such hatred is 'antihomophobic' is just as revolting as someone claiming saying 'I hate Jews' is anti occupation. Surely you must be able to see that saying they hate Muslims is bigoted?

or what you were trying to say.

Lost me completely.

Whenever you talk to me you keep on about this homosexual,homophobic,homo chatter ,that I have no idea what your on about.

Which is a good thing,I guess, because it sounded like crap.

Have you tried reading it out loud? That helps some people when it comes to comprehension. Or if English is your second language and yr struggling to understand, using Google to translate it can be very helpful. It should show you that the words 'I hate Muslims' and 'Islamophobia' aren't 'homosexual'.

Let me give you another example of why someone who says 'I hate Muslims' is an Islamophobe. Using the logic you used to claim the person who said 'I hate Muslims' isn't Islamophobic, feminists could use the mistreatment of women at the hands of Haredi to say 'I hate Jews'. If you turned around and said that was antisemitic, they could correct you and say: 'Not antisemitic. Anti-misogyny'. And if you objected, that would be a hypocritical objection, as you yrself said that saying 'I hate Muslims' isn't Islamophobic, it's 'anti-homophobic'.

I hope that helps you understand more clearly :)

They reads to me as " blah bla homosexual blah blah blah '
Enough already !

Not sure how anyone gets 'blah bla homosexual blah blah blah ' out of me pointing out that someone saying they hate Muslims is Islamophia. Maybe you should take those tips I gave you to help you comprehend what yr reading. Or get someone else to read the posts out loud to you :)

Because I am not even finding it vaguely amusing.

And trying to justify someone saying they hate Muslims by flaunt it's not Islamophobic to do so is spinning bigotry as being A-OK

If anyone at all understands any of these posts " shrugs"

Ta Ta.

See, how it has to do with his exchange is that I replied to yr post where you spoke of what you claimed was a vile antisemitic statement being spun to be A-OK. I've pointed out the inconsistency of yr statement by remindinf you that someone saying they hate Muslims is a vile anti-Muslim comment which was being spun to be okay

Yet you go on, give it up already.It is tedius ,when I do not understand what your getting at and I bet no one else does either.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo

Having been here a long time, I'm sure that most DUers are quite capable of understanding what I've been saying, as I've been saying it very clearly.

Just in case anyone's not following, here's the link to what I'm talking about again

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x358701#358855

Someone who hates Muslims is an Islamophobe. If the person who hates Muslims is a feminist, they're not anti-misogyny, they're an Islamophobe. Likewise if the person who hates Muslims is gay, they're not as you claimed, anti-homophobe, they're an Islamophobe. I consider such attempts to say hating Muslims isn't Islamophobic to be spinning bigotry to be A-OK...

bla blah bla blah bla




I am not sure why though ?


Enough already ! It will soon become an issue.

Well, apart from that you say you don't understand what yr reading. If you actually are having a problem comprehending what's posted and you feel the need to continue replying, it would be more constructive to explain what part of what I said you don't understand and then I can word it more simply and help you understand it. it would certainly look better than telling me not to respond to yr posts.

I'm also not Sure what you think will soon be an issue. Is it that I could be facing an army of people who confuse the words islamophobia and homophobia? Or that I might get in some sort of trouble for daring to reply to yr posts?

I get the feeling that for some reason you need to get the last word in by posting a link to a crap song that is your way of telling me to go away. It reminds me of a time on another forum where someone went to another part of the forum and posted a link to an exchange he was having with another poster, bragging about how he was kicking their arse. Having drawn everyone's attention to the exchange he was determined to get the last word in so he could look lIke a 'winner' and told the other poster to give up and go away. Of course the other poster made a point of not going away and eventually a few others joined in and started talking about stuff like what they'd done at the weekend. and still determined to win at all costs , the first poster stayed there yelling at them all to give up and go away. If he'd had Kenny Rogers at hand I'm sure he would have utilized him!


Without you telling me what it is that you don't understand, it's hard to do much else but patiently explain that bigotry doesn't turn into something noble if the person doing it is part of a group that suffers bigotry themselves. Now hot me with some more crap music stat!

Nope thats not it , I am not that up on the internet's inter and intra-forum warfare,

like you obviously are.

The song may be crap but it had a message for you.

I know that Australia is one of the worst,if not THE worst of the Western countries when it comes to Gay rights , but I was hoping for more on a progressive website.

No biggie to me,cos you got the last word .

This was mine on this poor-form exchange.

It's really quite strange that you see what I've pointed out about islamophobia as somehow being an attack on gay rights. I'd ask you to explain how you define islamophobia and why you think someone who hates Muslims isnt an islamophobe, but you haven't been interested in explaining anything regarding that in this thread.

Yep the Kenny Rogers message is loud and clear.
1. He sang some really crap songs.
2. You would like me to give up and go away

Nope can't say I'm up on intraboard warfare. It was just a cute story from another board I used to post on where the poster was as intent as you on telling others to give-up and go away.

Why do you keep bringing up australia?

There's no progressive justification whatsoever for having IDF troops in the West Bank. They simply have no right to be there.

Strawman ,Red Herring etc etc

Try the Topic