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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 01:41 AM
Original message
The fence is an Israeli PR defeat
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/368652.html

<snip>

"Israel has suffered a serious defeat in its attempt
to explain why it needs the separation fence in
the West Bank. This is in contrast to the fence
built in the Gaza Strip, which was accepted
without question. Many of Israel's friends, too,
are finding it difficult to accept the explanation
that it is only a security fence, intended to make
life harder for both Palestinian terrorists and
Arabs who want to settle in Israel without
permits.

Even Israeli diplomats are
finding it hard to explain
the harm the fence causes the
many Palestinians who live
adjacent to it and which
disrupts their lives."


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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Didn't we just tear down a wall about thirteen years ago?
Do these people have collective amnesia? WTF is going on?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. Diplomats Are Such Silly Twits!
Even Israeli diplomats are
finding it hard to explain
the harm the fence causes the
many Palestinians who live
adjacent to it and which
disrupts their lives.


Haven't they got the memo yet? All they have to do is come and read this forum where a few folk have no problem explaining the harm the fence will do to Palestinians. All they have to do is flash their Peace Fence Fan Club cards, and when anyone asks them questions about why the fence is being built deep into Palestinian territory and why the Palestinians left on the western side have to apply for permission to live on land they've lived on all their lives, while Israelis and tourists have unlimited access, cleverly refute all claims and answer all questions with five big words: 'This Is A Peace Fence!' And when anyone points out that those words didn't explain anything, all the diplomat has to do is swiftly divert attention to past suicide bombings and repeat even louder: 'I told you! This Is A Peace Fence!' And if anyone dares to ask why it's okay to punish the Palestinians being affected by the fence for acts of terrorism committed by others, ignore the question and make some weird crack involving Cat Stevens and that crappy 'Peace Train' song and hope the person they're talking to doesn't realise that the mindless conservative trolls with the L-plates on over at LGF have already done that to death ;)

Violet...
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Bravo!
Well done! Encore!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. LGF?
From what I garner reading here, that's some reference to another site. I'm at a loss on that one. Do you spend time at other sites? I don't. Other than DU, I don't post anywhere -- who has the time?

You rail on the fence (sorry, bad pun) but all of the complaints you make are identical to ones I read in my newspaper every day about every single major project built in the U.S.

Sorry if I sound unsympathetic, but every time anything is built -- a road, a stadium, a shopping center, or a Peace Fence -- someone is inconvenienced, someone is displaced, etc.

The goal in this case is the goal of ever state, the protection of its citizens.

The Palestinians still have the option of choosing peace over terror. But as long as many Palestinians are choosing terror, Israel has the obligation to keep them away from its citizens.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes...
That's what I said. Why? Is there some reason why I shouldn't be reading LGF? I found the most amusing things there when I read it. As yr interested I post in quite a few other places, and LGF isn't one of them. I've got my own blog (link at the bottom of my posts), I moderate a pro-choice group, and when the mood takes me I still make fun of silverchair fans wherever I find them....

Muddle, I'm seriously not interested in you repeating the same lines again and again and again. Unless yr going to try to explain why there's a legitimate security aspect to building the Apartheid Wall deep into Palestinian territory rather than on the Green Line, then yr not addressing the issue as far as I'm concerned...

Also, please try to refrain from claiming that 'the Palestinians are choosing terror'. That's stereotyping a group of people, and only a very small number of them are terrorists, though the numbers could rise if you want to include kids throwing rocks and militants who dare to attack the Most Moral Army In The World...

Violet...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Again, LGF?
I have never been to this site. So again, you can reference it all you like, but it will be lost on me. Have fun though.

OK, I said this before, in case you hadn't noticed, the wall protects a bunch of Israeli citizens in contested areas. That is why it is built where it is.

I am not stereotyping anyone. The Palestinians allow the terrorists to speak for them. The Palestinians support (75%) terror actions. The Palestinians don't shut down the terorists.

So, it is pretty clear that is the path they are choosing either actively or passively. And no, quite obviously, many are not choosing. Even with the 75% number, 25% are NOT choosing that path.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I already said yes...
Edited on Sun Dec-07-03 09:26 AM by Violet_Crumble
Seeing I wasn't addressing you in my post, it's of no importance whatsoever if you've ever been there or not. There isn't any need to have been there or not as I was saying what *I* read there. Do you have a problem with that??? Many other people post in this forum, y'know, and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that people who do know where that site is are reading, do you? I'm a bit confused as to why yr making such a big deal about this...

Those so-called 'contested areas' are Israeli settlements that are illegal under international law. I asked for legitimate reasons and by that I meant ones that were legal. Yuck. Calling the Occupied Territories 'contested' is just the same as if the Japanese had called Singapore contested....


You claimed the Palestinian people choose terrorism, and didn't mention anything about some 75% figure that you've pulled from a poll, even though you've claimed in the past that much more reputable polls concerning attitudes towards the US couldn't be trusted because they're just a poll. Interesting that this particular poll you cite as fact appears to be such a concrete thing all of a sudden...

Condoning suicide bombings is NOT the same thing as choosing terrorism. If so many Palestinians were choosing terrorism there'd be a hell of a lot more suicide-bombings...

Violet...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. First
"disputed" and "contested" territories, now a "peace fence". What an incredible spin are we witnessing...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. What a crock
You wrote a post specifically to tell me Post #2 was for me and then responded to my response.

You clearly seem to be trying to score some sort of point about LGF and link me to it and I am making it clear that won't work.

The contested areas are just that, contested. Does anyone on this forum think the Palestinians will get all of those areas when all is said and done? I sure don't. But, in the meantime, all is NOT said and done. Israel is in charge of those areas and will remain so till there is a peace treaty. The Palestinians contest even that. So contested works that way as well.

How many times do I have to mention the poll? We all post in the same threads. Do you want me to restate every position and fact in every post?

How is, "Condoning suicide bombings" "NOT the same thing as choosing terrorism?" That's a new one on me.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. Nope, it's not...
Muddle, let's get this clear once and for all, because this whole thing about one tiny reference to LGF is quite silly in my opinion. When I wrote my post (#2) it was NOT addressed to or specifically for you. When I returned and read yr post further down the thread where you appeared to be doing exactly what I'd talked about in my post, I decided to devote the post to you. Due to wanting to do a little rhyming thing I was constrained as to space and wording and didn't worry too much as I didn't expect I'd have to return and spell out something so trivial word by slow agonising word....

Nope, can't say I was trying to score some sort of point about LGF other than mentioning something I'd read there. As I'm the author of the post in question, I'd hazard a guess that me saying what I did or didn't mean carries a fair bit more weight than guesses as to what I'm thinking on yr part...

I don't know. How many times do you have to mention the poll? I'm pointing out what you said earlier about far more reputable polling groups, which appears to contradict what yr saying about this particular poll...

Someone can condone suicide bombings without being involved in them, which is what 'choosing terrorism' implies. Of course, as state terrorism on the part of Israel has occurred in the past, I guess if you want to try saying that the Palestinians choose terror, the same thing can also be said for the Israelis...

Violet...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. All I can tell is what you write
Edited on Mon Dec-08-03 08:40 AM by Muddleoftheroad
You right a post and say a certain post is specifically to me. Then you respond to the post that I write in response. Looks like a one-on-one exchange to me and to everyone else.

You can back off that if you wish.

As for LGF, you brought it up for some reason. Since I don't go there, that is something in your head.

As for the poll, the numbers vary a bit from time to time, but the poll results consistently show what that poll showed. That the Palestinian people support the terror. After a certain point, I get tired of the claim that they do not.

Of course, "someone can condone suicide bombings without being involved in them, which is what 'choosing terrorism' implies." But if they are condoning terror, that means they are not pushing their government to stop it. And that means they look the other way when Hamas sets up operations down the street. Or it means they contribute money or time or children to the effort.

And, no the same CAN'T be said of the Israelis.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Yes
it can...
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. No
it doesn't
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Yes...
it does



Wow, that was fun!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Then why aren't you understanding what I write?
Go back and reread the post you were responding to. I made it crystal clear that I didn't write my post with *you* specifically in mind, but devoted it to you later on after reading a later post of yrs in this thread. What part of that don't you understand? Also, just because you claim you don't visit somewhere on the internet doesn't mean that there's something wrong with anyone else visiting and talking about what they read. It definately doesn't make it a figment of my imagination...

When it comes to polls, you rubbished a highly reputable poll in the past by claiming that polls can't be trusted for a variety of reasons. Not once have you mentioned these same concerns when it comes to this one poll you keep on referring to as 'stats' and other such terms....

Sorry, but you can't claim that one group 'chooses terrorism' because they may support illegal actions that you oppose, and then turn round and say the other group doesn't support illegal actions because you support those illegal actions. It's being inconistant, and so if yr saying it of the Palestinians, you most definately ARE saying the same of the Israelis...

Violet...
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. Violet: I vote this for "Post of the Month"
Perhaps "post of the year".....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. Thanks, Ed....
I was having a moment of cuteness, but there's a point being made there that I suspect probably went several miles over the heads of anyone who is prone to wielding mostly nonsensical little jingoisms as a debating tool :)

Violet...
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Well, at least I enjoyed it....
nt
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. Same article; different spin:
When relating to the fence, many people around the world, including in the United States, refer to an Israeli "wall," a term that arouses associations with the Berlin Wall. "The fence" is perceived as the expropriation of Palestinian lands, not a defensive measure designed to protect Israel's residents. People find it hard to believe that the idea of building the fence actually sprouted in Israel's leftist camp, which sought to prevent the massive shift of voters to the right due to Palestinian terror. The fence's opponents were, first and foremost, all the supporters of the settlements, and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon himself.

cut

On the other hand, it is unimaginable that so many nations are demanding that Israel forgo a defensive measure and expose itself to suicide terror and the invasion of Palestinians who want to live in Israel. The problem is that an initially correct defensive idea has been totally distorted. The settlers' contention that the original route of the fence was designed to abandon them is incorrect. Budgets
were set aside to fence in every settlement separately.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/368652.html
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You have no problem about the path the wall's taking?
Those two paragraphs you copied appear take opposition to the path of the wall and treat it as though it's opposition to the wall itself. Many people wouldn't be opposed to it if it was being built on the Green Line, which is what the original Labor plans were, and the reason Sharon opposed it so strongly was that he didn't want his precious settlements on the other side of the wall. But then again, the author says: 'The problem is that an initially correct defensive idea has been totally distorted.' which is true. The original idea was definately a legitimate defensive measure, but what Sharon's done to the original idea has turned it into something that's got much more to do with expansion and land-grabbing rather than security and defence...

Violet...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. All we are saying
Is give Fence a chance.

Properly used, a Peace Fence will wildly limit terror.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Absolutly
The PR problem with the fence is a problem like with a bad reputation. It is only in the minds of others. The fact that the fence will give Israelis more security, has already begun to do so is far the greater measure of usabilty.

It matters little if Ms Crumble in Australia dislikes it, or Mr Bluesole in Czechoslovakia is opposed to it. The real test for the Peace Fence is to stop terror.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Can't agree with you here...
Whether the Femce "works" or not, which is hardly certain, given the isolation of 250,000 Palestinians on the INSIDE part of it...there can be no doubt that it has hurt Israel's diplomatic position in the US, etc.

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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. "It is only in the minds of others."
It's utterly amazing to witness the illogical gyrations of either getting excited over what's in "others" minds, or not getting excited. In this case, it doesn't matter? For a group of pathetic souls who rummage for every stupid article on polls about anti-semitism, this seems to be a radical one-eighty in position on being concerned about what's in the minds of "others". If you don't want to discuss what people are thinking now, don't come back later with some mewling about anti-semitism polls or studies and expect to be taken seriously. It's clear you really don't care what people think and it's all a game, and that's truely pathetic.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Right or wrong
is not determined by polls, in my opinion. Polls can be useful to show public opinion, but sometimes, public opinion isn't "the answer". No 180 degree difference. I don't chase after every poll, as you put it, either.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
49. The point of my post...
is to point out hypocrisy so obvious, that you have no choice but to ignore the issue, as you have.

Either you care what people think, or you don't. In this thread, the same misguided souls that don't care what people think, all of a sudden are interested when it comes to perceived anti-semitism. That position is laughable bullshit, and that's being kind.

Like I said, either you care, or you don't. Pretending to care in the case of anti-semitism is nothing more than stupid, Hasbara style, point-scoring and not to be taken seriously.

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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Somebody answer us, now.
What about the Palestinians who the fence will kill because it takes their homes, their agriculture, and their other means of survival?

Doesn't the possible genocide of Palestinians mean anything to you all, or do the far fewer Israeli lives mean more to you all than anything else?

There's an answer to stopping the terrorism. The answer is to stop ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. Oddly enough, the nations that Israel isn't ethnically cleansing isn't sending citizens into Israel strapped and ready to blow themselves up.

I demand answers to this stuff. I'm sick of hearing about how it supposedly will save Israeli lives, while ignoring the future genocide of the Palestinians. I'm sick of people like yourself acting like I should only take the lives of the Israelis into consideration, and give no consideration to the Palestinians. That's what you all are doing when you talk about how the fence will supposedly save Israeli lives and not answer to the concerns of future genocide against the Palestinians.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Like everyone
Many people lose their jobs because of the Intifada. People in Israel. Then we can say, by your logic, that it kills them. They are dead economically. Some committed suicide because of it. Economic crisis happens fao many reasons. With rich Old Man Arafat, and Saudi Arabia on their side, economic losses can be made up.

Besides, Israel offers compensation for loss of land.

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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. That is so well flawed.
"Many people lose their jobs because of the Intifada. People in Israel. Then we can say, by your logic, that it kills them."

Are they also having their homes mowed down and their food destroyed? BTW, the recession Israel is having is not just because of the infidata. I think I'll post more on this subject and what it does to Israelis later on in the day.

"They are dead economically. Some committed suicide because of it."

I'm sorry to hear that. I have been reading that in order for Israel to get aid from the US, that they had to cut back on social funding for poor people to help them out. Don't you think it's time that the Israeli government gets their priorities straight? Do they want land, or do they want better off citizens.

"Economic crisis happens fao many reasons. "

Do they usually happen because another nation is coming in and destroying all of your means of survival, including clean water?

"With rich Old Man Arafat, and Saudi Arabia on their side, economic losses can be made up."

Then why aren't the Palestinians getting their economic losses made up to them? First of all, Saudi Arabia is not really connected to the Palestinians, so they probably don't see them as their responsibility. Arafat either can't do what you're saying, or he won't. You're talking about the idea of him taking money out of his own pocket, not taking funds for the Palestinians. On the contrary, some of the funds that were helping out Palestinians have been put on freeze by the PA because the groups are accused of helping out terrorists. In any case, the economic losses are not being made up.

"Besides, Israel offers compensation for loss of land. "

Not to the Palestinians, they don't. They never have. It all started when Israel became a state. The Israeli government had decided to take a slightly Socialist stance by taking about 92% of the land for itself to lease and not own; meaning that they took owned property from the Arabs already living there. In return, Arabs have had a hard time getting land to lease ever since then because they're not wanting to lease out to non-Jews. Of course, I'm talking about the actual Arab citizens of Israel. I've never seen Israel compensate for land taken from the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza strip. Heck, some of the reasons that they're losing their land to begin with is to build a Jewish neighborhood in its place.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I see you've gone
Edited on Sun Dec-07-03 01:45 PM by Gimel
to great lengths to explain the situation and Israel's economy to me. Even going back to the beginning of the state. Can you prove that Israel hasn't given compensation for the land that has been confiscated for building the Peace Fence? I have heard several times that compensation was being paid. Palestinians may have refused to accept compensation (if they starve to death as a result who is to blame?) on political grounds.

Saudi Arabia is directly connected to the Palestinians and their cause. Arafat receives compensation for the suicide attacks from the Saudis.

All your weaving this story, leaves the impact of the nearly 200 suicide/mass homicide bomb attacks on Israeli citizens in another world, doesn't it?

Restructuring the Israeli economy has been undertaken, beginning 20 years ago. The economy suffered with the collapse of the high tech industry (Israeli is third in the world in the size of high tech industry), the world wide recession and the Intifada II which reduced tourism (another major industry in Israel) to close to zero. On top of that, the cost of security and damage caused by the many attacks on public buses and private businesses, the medical expenses and the rehabilitation expenses for thousands of victims, and the economic disaster is further compounded. Israel has economic losses that need made up as well.

European Jews bought hundreds of dunams of land before the state was created at inflated prices. Whenever possible land was bought and paid for. As much of the land was in the hands of the Turks, your claims leave a lot be be explained. There are actual records of land ownership, so I won't need your reporting on this.

And on edit: I forgot to remind you that the EU gives generous contributions to the PA, about 10% of which Arafat puts in his own pocket. There is money, and water resources are available, as well as desalinization plants (one is a joint Israeli/Palestinian project). Water problem solved.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
32. Some information on Israel's poor.
Just some information about the poor in Israel, and how it’s really the fault of the Israeli government.

http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.09.05/news1.hunger.html

“The study, which was leaked to the Israeli press and dominated headlines for two days last week, showed that 22% of Israeli households, more than one in five, suffer from inadequate nutrition because of poverty.”
“Declaring that Israel had "poverty, but no hunger," Sharon won Cabinet approval June 1 for a resolution calling on Diaspora charities to focus on "Jewish and Zionist education" rather than on Israelis' economic hardship.”
Note: When they say education, I don’t think that they mean regular education. I think that they mean to say that religious and political education is being put before helping Israel’s poor. How is this all the fault of the infidata?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1121/p06s01-wome.html
“A $3.2 billion budget cut planned for 2003 will unfairly target Israel's poorest citizens, say critics.”
“The lack of attention, even in Israel, to the lopsided battle between left-wing activists and government economists points to the extent to which even social emergencies continue to take a back seat to security issues.
Activists say the budget cuts could help shape Israeli society for years to come, locking more poor into a cycle of poverty and widening income and class distinctions in a society that was founded with an egalitarian ethos.”
“Shlomo Svirski, director of research at the Adva Center, a left-wing Tel Aviv think tank, says such an approach is steadily widening the gap between rich and poor. He stresses that the capital-gains tax was coupled with new tax breaks that benefit the wealthy: "There was a moral choice between two groups here, and the government decided that hurting poor people would not hurt it politically," he says. Gideon Ezra, a Likud deputy minister said that while some poor people would be hurt, the cuts are necessary to balance a budget that contains essential projects such as a security fence to stop infiltrations from Palestinian areas.”
Note: Oh, sweet! The Likud party has decided that they would rather that Israelis starve (possibly to death) than decide to not build that land grabbing fence. Oh, but they care about saving Israeli’s lives, right?
And for those of you who think that this is about security….
“The Labor Party, which as a part of the national unity government joined in passing last year's cutbacks, should begin to stress the woes of the poor, says Meir Sheetreet, the Labor deputy mayor of Jerusalem. But other Labor leaders insist that after two years of terrorist attacks security and the Palestinian issue are what most interest voters.”
Note: They’re putting votes above Israeli lives. I think that they’re going to do much more damage to the Israelis than even two years of suicide bombings have. Suicide bombings in Israel hurt them as much as the humans hurt the spaceships in the movie “Independence Day” (before they were able to turn the alien’s primary weapon on them is what I’m comparing it to). However, a war on the poor is probably one of Israel’s primary weapons. My God! The government is destroying their own people for land and for votes.
What is Israel doing with their poor? Many of times, they’re talking them into living in the OT territories. These Israelis would rather live in danger of being killed by Palestinians, than put up their suffering of being poor anymore.
http://www.peacenow.org/nia/news/margalit.html
“The third strip, in which most of the settlers live, is the one closest to Israel's Green Line, the pre-1967 border. This strip consists roughly of three types of settlers: those who seek a better "quality of life," those who are economically needy, and those who are both economically needy and ultra-Orthodox. The settlers who seek a better life moved from densely populated cities in Israel into settlements built on scenic hills with red-roofed houses and a garden of their own—all for a relatively small investment. One settlement of that kind is Nili, with 604 largely secular residents, which is next to the modern Orthodox "quality-of-life" settlement of Na'ale. Both are about a forty-minute drive from either Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. For the price of a three-room apartment with two bedrooms in the vicinity of Tel Aviv, a family in Nili can purchase its own six-room house. In some of these communities both secular and religious people live together.
“The second type consists of those who are relatively poor and cannot afford to buy an apartment inside Israel. Since there is very little Israeli property for rent, most people buy apartments, partly financing them by mortgages. If a settler buys an apartment worth $100,000, he will receive from the government a standing loan of $20,000, which in practice comes close to turning into a grant after five years. Moreover, he also gets $12,000 as a flat grant; and he pays such low interest on his mortgage (2.5 percent compared to 5.5 percent in Israel proper) that he saves $40,000 in mortgage payments over twenty years. Small wonder then that a settlement of 25,000 residents such as Ma'ale Adimmim near Jerusalem, on the way to the Dead Sea, has many young families that could not afford to own an apartment in Jerusalem.”
Note: So, the Israeli government is exploiting Israeli poverty by sending them out into the OT. The money for these settlement could go inside of Israel, but the Israeli government wants the OT land too much to do that. Therefore, they take advantage of the desperation of some of the poor in Israel.
“Someone paid for it, though. According to the government's master plan for settlements, the establishment of Ma'ale Adimmim in 1974 meant the expulsion of the Bedouin tribe of Jahalin, whose members grazed their flocks there. Some 12,000 acres, the size of Tel Aviv today, were allocated to Ma'ale Adimmim, and more than 25,000 people now live there. Nor do government subsidies stop with money for housing. Living in a settlement like Ma'ale Adimmim (ten minutes from the Mount Scopus campus of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem) means, among many other benefits, that income taxes are reduced by 10 percent, health taxes by 30 percent, and kindergarten fees by 50 percent.”
Note: Of course, this meant that a non-Israeli tribe would be driven off of their land. Oh, how the oppressed becomes the oppressor when it comes to the Israeli settler. What the poor in Israel need to do is get together in solidarity with the people in the OT and rise against the imperialist government of Israel to make them stop exploiting the both of them for land. These settlements are not the answer. It’s turning workers against workers, just like the Capiatlists in Israel want the situation to do.
“In comparison to Israelis within the Green Line, settlers are thus doing better economically (or at least they were until the beginning of the current Intifada).”
Note: The Israeli government is deliberately making things better for those outside of the Green line to encourage a complete takeover of the OT.
“The ultra-Orthodox settlements are fairly large (Betar Illit, 13,000; Qiryat Sefer, 12,000), and also relatively poor. Most of the residents can't even afford to buy ordinary apartments in the settlements. They get all sorts of subsidies that the other settlers don't.”

Note: Despite what some people around her might think, the ultra-Orthodox Jews living in the OT are not necessarily there for religious reasons. They might very well be there for economic reasons.

If you want to take Israel's poor into consideration, the source of their poverty and exploitation goes right back to the source for the Palestinian's poverty and exploitation. The source is the Israeli government.











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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Israel's poor
the fault of the poor, as you explain it, is that they:

1) live in the territories to get subsidies
2) are religious to get subsidies
3) are both 1 and 2 above
4) are getting sidelined to education
5) and capital gains tax credits.

The prevention of terror should have a lower priority than providing for the needy, according to your thinking. Both things should have top priority in my estimation.


Actually, all sectors in Israel have had to cut back expenditures. While the poor do suffer, and proposed legislation would have cut back more, new programs have been added, such as providing school lunches (a program that did not exist before 2003). Protests lead by activists have forced the government to reinstate the proposed cutbacks to single parents as well as the unemployed. It is a social problem in the time of recession, but ithere is a continuing flow if information on this, and some quotes and statistics taken a few weeks ago could well be outdated.

As in many capitalist economies around the world, the gap between rich and poor is widening. Unemployment is a major problem, but there are indications that the recession is over, and slowly things will improve. The economic cycle is a phenomena of all free economies. At the US insistance, Israel has given up a lot of the subsidies on basic food items to benefit the poor, as well as on supplemental income grants.






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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Two in one.
Other people and myself have already gave you and others the details about what is happening to the land of Palestinians with the construction of this fence. I've also given information on here before talking about how land for the Arabs wasn't compensated for once it was taken from th em by the Zionists who bought it up by Britain (who had no right to sell what was not theirs)for the sake of creating Israel.

If you can show where the majority or all of these Arabs have been compensated, then I'll consider what you have to say.

If the answer to preventing terrorism came in the form of putting the money towards the military, then I might agree that it is more important than the poor at the moment. However, it is of my belief that the occupation is oppressing the Palestinians, and this is what makes them desperate enough to blow themselves up to begin with. Therefore, I think that the money would be better used in helping out the poor. Poverty is driving many Israelis to move into illegal settlements, which provokes war. Poverty is a key component to what drives the Palestinians to suicide bombings (because their poverty is far more severe than Israel's is). If Israel keeps the OT (instead of giving the Palestinians their own state), then they need to also help out the Palestinians that are in them.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Not poverty alone
Poverty alone will drive people to such moral depravity. That is clear from any historical or psychological perspective. Many cultures and countries are even poorer than those in the Palestinian territories. Look at Aphganistan, at the poverty there, and the people were manipulated by one of the richest men in the world (OBL).

The people of India practice non-violence ane are some of the world's poorest.

Israel is not opposed to the creation of the Palestinian State (speaking of the majority in Israel), but a neighbor that spends excess money funding terrorist attacks on it's neighbor's citizens is not welcome anywhere.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. Yes, poverty alone
Have you noticed that the majority of "criminals" in the United States are poor? That includes the violent ones. They live in a state of hopelessness. Sometimes, they resort to really bad crime such as drug dealing, armed robbery, and other things to make money.

Afghanistan is a country that has been torn up by years of war. I don't see what you're talking about there.

You just think that India practices non-violence. Did you know that India has a high female infanticide rate? That's because couples have to come up with a dowry to marry off their daughters so they won't have to keep taking care of them. They can't afford a dowry but for so many girls. As a result, sex selected abortion and female infanticide is at a high rate. No violence?

By contrast, the Netherlands have minimal problems. They're characterized as Socialist because they make sure that everybody has enough. Other European countries have similar results. Japan has a very low crime rate, and a good economy. Canada has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. They're not as rich as the US, but their unemployment rate is lower.

Actually, if you would name a civilization, I bet that I can show you where they're resorting to things that we find horrible because of a lack of money.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. I am from Slovenia
not Czechoslovakia (which doesn't even exist anymore, there's now the Czech Republic and Slovakia) a country several hundred miles southern
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. All those European countries are all the same!!
Edited on Sun Dec-07-03 06:40 AM by Violet_Crumble
Only joking, bluesoul. Hey, did you like how what we think doesn't matter because we're in Czechoslovakia Slovenia and Australia? The logic seems to be that it does matter what we think, no matter where we are, if we're in agreement with Gimel, but if we're not, then it's tough titties to us because the implication is made that we're not there so what would we know! Gimel's dredged this line up in the past and each time I point out to her that a person's location doesn't matter one iota when it comes to opinions on things concerning Israels actions in the Occupied Territories. After all, there's many Israelis who strongly disagree with Gimel and feel the same way as we do. And there's some Australians and Slovenians who would probably agree strongly with Gimels stance and strongly oppose ours. Of course Gimel still hasn't explained why if as she claims the purpose of the wall is to keep terrorists out of Israel, how the wall is achieving anything being built on the path its taking that it couldn't have achieved being built along the Green Line. And how she knows that all those Palestinians finding themselves on the Israeli side of the wall aren't possible terrorists. And why she's ignoring that Sharon's aim has always been an Israel that includes the Occupied Territories and that the settlements are his project and he not only has every intention of them remaining where they are, but of expanding them....


Violet...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. True
There are people there living (on both sides) that disagree with Gimel.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. Preferences
While I would prefer the Peace Fence to be on the Greenline, I also think that the Israelis should be on one side of it, separated from the Palestinian side. Since the purpose of the Peace Fence is to provide security, it should provide it, and not be defeated by the supposed border. If life were so simple, and you could kindly explain how a barrier that is to provide security becomes a border for you, and that security of Israelis is still protected, then I'll believe that you have a relevant point of view.

What is an intellectual exercise for you will not impine upon the safety of your children or your neighbor's children. If it did, I'm sure that you would not ask my advice for giving them security.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. How about
the security and life of Palestinian children and other civilians? Those don't exist? As long as only they are being killed and affected by it, everything is OK judging by your comments...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Crude assumption
As long as only they are being killed and affected by it, everything is OK judging by your comments...

The Peace Fence will bring peace to both parties (peoples). The fence protects the innocent of both sides, as terror is the greatest threat to peace and to the health and well being of the Palestinian children as well as the Israel children.

Why have you been so blind to this reality? You project evil intention where there is none.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. No evil intention from the likes of Sharon?
You trust him too much IMHO...
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. How can you use a term like "Peace Fence"
And maintain any kind of dignity?

Talk about Orwellian!
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. "Peace Fence" is a very lame PR term.
Anyone with a brain will recoil from it in disgust and horror.

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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. "Peace Fence"
Interestingly, the largest nuclear weapon in the American arsenal is called the "Peacemaker". Sounds like the same PR firm is naming these things.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Yes, same Orwellian glow...
God help us.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
45. Like the Good Fence
The Good Fence separated Lebanon from the northern Israeli communities. Workers with permits were allowed entry into Matula to find employment.

Palestinian laborers numbering close to 20,000 a day enter Israel when there is not a security alert. Good neighbors in time of peace can compliment one another. A fence will allow good relations to return. Anyone who is able to analyze the situation prefers peace to attacks. The fence is good for peace and thus the Peace Fence is an appropriate term.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. You can change the name, but the thing still stinks the same...
Maybe you need to apply a liitle air-freshener to your illegal, nakedly expansionist fence.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #24
43. It's not a 'supposed border'...
The Green Line is the internationally recognised defacto border of Israel. What's on the other side of it isn't Israel. It's a simple concept. If it was Israel, then everyone born in the Occupied Territories would have had Israeli citizenship bestowed on them. So, as there's no reason for any progressive to believe that Israeli citizens have a right to steal land and set up home wherever they like outside of Israel and get the protection of the IDF and live under Israeli laws, I think what you should have said was that Israelis should indeed be on one side of the wall, and if their security is so crucial to the GOI, then the settlements should be dismantled and the settlers moved back to Israel. That way the wall would follow the Green Line and Israelis would be safely on their own side and people would believe that it's being built to provide security and not as a land grab. Of course, Sharon isn't interested in providing security and he's not interested in peace...

It's not an intellectual exercise at all. It's a matter of right and wrong, and giving a shit about the Palestinians being affected by this wall. You still haven't given any legitimate reason that's a legal one about how this wall being built where it is will provide any security that being built on the Green Line wouldn't. You haven't explained how the GOI knows that all those Palestinians finding themselves on the Israeli side of the wall aren't a threat to Israels security (so much for keeping Israelis and Palestinians separated, eh?). Until you do that, I think the only who believes that wall is being built where it is to provide their children security are the sort of folk who would have been stupid enough to vote for Sharon. Fortunately there's many left-wing Israelis who don't fall for that fake security line...

Violet...
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. And what we are saying is...
That we might give the fence a chance if it was built in an area that didn't destroy the lives of Palestinians; that would be before the Green line.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Muddle...
Post Number Two...
It's written for you...
:)


Violet...

p.s. to the mods - If this post gets alerted on because I used the word 'you' or something, it's there for aesthetic value as it rhymes and us poets have to rhyme or we'd be out of a job...


Violet...
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-03 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
26. Curious language....
nt
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