If it's against Jewish law, then why is Israel doing it?

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2378.shtml

<snip>

"The Israeli army has destroyed hundreds of thousands of Palestinian olive and citrus trees throughout the Occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip in recent years. Yet in a startling admission, a staffer at the Jewish National Fund for Israel (JNF) has written that, "it is against Jewish halachic law to uproot fruit bearing trees."

The Jewish National Fund for Israel is a quasi-official Israeli state organization, founded in the early twentieth century to acquire land in Palestine for the Zionist movement. EI co-founder Ali Abunimah sent an e-mail to the JNF website asking, "Could you provide me with statistics on the number of olive and citrus trees destroyed by Israel in recent years?"

Zachary Lerner, of the JNF's "Marketing and Communications" department responded, "Thank you for contacting Jewish National Fund with your inquiry. Please note that it is against Jewish halachic law to uproot fruit bearing trees. Jewish National Fund is committed to caring for the land of Israel."

<snip>

"It takes an extraordinary amount of sanitization, and indeed self-delusion, for staff at the Jewish National Fund for Israel to declare that destroying trees is a violation of sacred Jewish law, while feigning ignorance that each and every day Israel lays waste to the land and its people and at the same time claims to act in the name of Jews all over the world."

and everything palestinians, christians, buddhists, and shi'ites, etc., do is 100% consistent with their own religion, especially during times of war/strife with neighbors of different cultures and religions.

ElectricIntifada is an authority in Jewish Law? No one will ask their opinion on halacha. They haven't an inkling.

And anyway, it is rather the Jewish National Fund that speaks of halachic law. They are the people quoted as saying that it is against Jewish laws to destroy fruit-bearing trees, yet such acts are done with great frequency (to put it mildly). Do you dispute either of these? Would you try to challenge the JNF's Zionist credentials? If you had read the piece (that you are ostensibly replying to) and digested what was said, I should not be writing this.

The RNF is not a rabbinical court. All laws are relative to the situation. Some have precedent over others, but the saving of life is above practically all others. If uprooting trees has the potential of saving a life, it would be allowed, in my estimation.

but relevant passages are not difficult to find. I had a suitable page bookmarked from a few weeks before that is useful for this. A Rabbi named Arik Ascherman has some words on the subject that begin with a quote from your Torah:--

"When in your war against a city you have to besiege it a long time in order to capture it, you must not destroy its trees" (Deuteronomy, 20:19)

http://www.shalomctr.org/index.cfm/action/read/section/OLIV/article/peace28.html

There are some rabbis in Israel who disagree, including those yesha colonists who attacked Rabbi Ascherman (who is on trial for heroically standing in front of bulldozers to prevent the destruction of peoples' homes and orchards) while he was observing the damage that these racist fanatics had done to Palestinians' olive trees. Other rabbis in the occupied lands believe destroying them is wrong, but stealing the produce of non-Jews within the "Land of Israel" is permitted.

There is much disagreement on the matter, as there often is on such subjects, but I believe the quote from Deuteronomy (otherwise a fairly nightmare-producing work, if I may say so) is clear enough to not require a rabbinical court to be convened for this DU discussion.

Now that I look at an analysis of the complete passage, it actually suggests both sides noted above as correct--that destroying the trees is not allowed by your laws, but stealing from them, however, is permitted.

Do you think that uprooting thousands of acres of these trees saves lives?! It seems to destroy them. Is that permitted?

When I used his words, people wanted to disown him.

"I don’t think we’ll ever know whether she fell, whether the bulldozer saw her or whether it was a game of chicken that went too far,” Ascherman says. “If it was an accident, it drives home that when you’re in front of a bulldozer knocking down a home, accidents can happen.”"

I thought you were one of the main opponents of continued Rachel Corrie discussion.

I promise to not bring her name up again as of right now. Of course that extends until the next time it appears in another thread started by someone else. You are welcome to make the same promise.

then why are you quoting the Rabbi's opinion on Rachel's death? (particularly in a thread that had nothing to do with Rachel Corrie)

:shrug:

started at 5:27 PM today. Are you preparing to make the same promise?

It's pretty well known amongst regular visitors to the I/P forum that I believe Rachel Corrie was murdered intentionally (because I trust the only four eyewitnesses to the crime, who all say the killing was intentional) and I believe the United States should investigate what had happened, rather than sit back ignoring the family and the calls for an independent investigation, hoping the whole thing just goes away.

In other words, being the good little Leftist Commie Do-Gooder that I am, I'll continue to speak out against this injustice.

with the Rabbi who might be in a position to know a little better

First of all neither myself nor the Rabbi were there, so let's put aside the idea that one or the other of us might know better.

Second, on the question of what really happened to Rachel, since you have the Rabbi saying "I don’t think we’ll ever know" and then you have me saying "I believe she was murdered", I think we can safely conclude that indeed I am not in agreement with the Rabbi.

I am familiar with some of his thoughts on her.

He also remarked that he thought of her when an Israeli bulldozer was threatening to run him down (she was martyred about a month before this, if memory serves), as he heroically put himself in front of the target it intended to destroy. I guess the drivers *can* see what is in front of them, since he survived the incident and was able to be put on trial for it.

uprooting thousands of acres of these trees

It certainly doesn't involve thousands of acres. This sort of hyperbole is continually thrown into the argument.

A square kilometer is 0.3861 square miles.

A hecture is 2.47 acres. 1 mile = 1.61 kilometers

On completion of the fence at the end of 2005, around 6 percent, or some 200 square kilometers, of the West Bank will lie within Israel...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=379370&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

As no "thousands of acres" are involved, that many trees are simply not being destroyed.

The quote relates to trees, but it is not the situation. It is the protection of the homeland that is involved, not the capture of a city. The lives of the citizens of Israel are protected by the anti-terrorism fence.

I was not limiting strictly to the situation of the wall (that was what Muddles was doing), though there are indeed thousands of destroyed acres in the course of the destruction/construction.

Your segment from Haaretz refers not to any fruit groves, but to '67-occupied land that will be de facto annexed by the racist wall. Point of fact, thousands of acres of groves are destroyed in each of several distinct events, to say nothing of the overall amount within this specific project. But that not even what I was referring to, but in general and over several years. The destruction of these trees occurs not just for your "Peace Fence", but for any or no reason and has been happening for long before the racist wall was planned.

Actually, the situation referred to in the Torah verse applies quite well to the besiegement of Palestine that exists and has for quite some time. Since we have a very different view of things, I do not expect you to agree.

why don't you divulge your sources? The thousands of acres of crops and fields and fields that you claim were destroyed need to be verified. You'll have to categorize them also as to the reason they were destroyed. Maybe you are also including Bedouin crops on state lands, or trees that were removed for a highway. Count every acre and every tree. Don't just spew out large figures as facts.

I have enough information on hand to answer your question, but as a curiosity I put the phrase "Palestine olive trees destroyed" into a search engine and had over 5,800 returns to compliment what I already had.

The best of reports that I have close at hand are at--
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland2.htm
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland3.htm
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland4.htm
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland5.htm
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland6.htm
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland7.htm
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland8.htm
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland9.htm

These are a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very long list of building and field destructions. I'll quote some of one pat at the end, but my few segments do not do any justice and I recommend reading the whole. The level of ignorance and denial exhibited here is most bizarre, but not something that is beyond my abilities to pummel.

------------

500 Palestinian Olive Trees Destroyed
By Matthew Gutman
Jerusalem Post
November 3, 2003
--snip--
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Feature/500_Trees_%20Destroyed.htm

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Bitter Harvest in West Bank's Olive Groves
By Chris McGreal
Guardian
November 14, 2003
...Rights groups estimate that more than 1,000 trees have been damaged or destroyed in recent weeks, some planted in the Roman era...
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Feature/bitter_harvest.htm

------------

...In the village of Hares, for example, the Israeli rabbis of Rabbis for Human Rights found 1500 olive trees destroyed — many in places far from where they could have been used as cover for violence...
http://www.shalomctr.org/index.cfm/action/read/section/OLIV/article/peace27.html

------------

...According to the Palestinian Agriculture Ministry over 200,000 olive trees have been uprooted by Israel over the last two years in the name of security.
The small Palestinian village of Jayyous has had over 15,000 olive trees and 50,000 citrus and other trees destroyed as Israel constructs its 8m high "security" wall...
http://www.support-palestine.org/herbs_products.htm

------------

...From the fruits of the ancient, venerable olive trees with their silver green leaves, men and women who cultivate the land gain the precious oil. For them this oil is a symbol of life and basis of their survival. These trees also symbolize the rootedness of the Palestinians in their country. Around Palestinian villages, those olive trees are uprooted and destroyed by bulldozers of the Israeli Army. The official explanation of the Israeli Occupation Force is "security reasons".
For the Palestinian people it is a question of life...
...In the past three years at least nine olive farmers were killed, and hundreds were injured and harassed by Israeli settlers threatened by settlers and Israeli army and blocked from harvesting their crop. During last year's olive harvesting in autumn 2002, settlers under the cover and protection of the Israeli army set fire to around 500 dunums of olive groves. According to the statistics published by the Palestinian Ministry of Agriculture, Israel has uprooted about 203,000 olive trees and confiscated thousands of dunums of olive groves.
Since the construction of the Apartheid Wall on Palestinian land in early 2002, confiscation and destruction have escalated...
http://www.womenspeacepalestine.org/olive%20oil/oliveoil_english.htm

------------

Posted on: 12/02/2000 2:00:05 PM
...Israelis chop down Palestinians' precious olive trees, insisting it's retaliation for rocks being hurled at settlers...
...When Ali Abed Daoud Jaber, 76, awoke the next morning, he found he was ruined. More than 400 olive trees were cut down by the Israeli army along the highway leading to three Jewish settlements. At least 110 were his. His entire olive orchard lay felled on the stone-strewn ground...
...One farmer, Abdullah Hamed Suleiman, 62, who lost 71 trees to Israeli chain saws Thursday, said the destroyed trees represented $ 4,000 a year in income, from olive oil he sells to Jordan...
http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/manager/features/display_message.asp?mid=121

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30 July:
...lso last week, the IDF demolished olives trees in various districts of Rafah, such as Tal Al Sultan, and Block J...
26 June:
...The soldiers shoot everyone in the streets, it did not matter if it was a child, an old man, or woman, they shoot on everything, and demolished all the olives trees that they found in their way...
24 June:
...Every day in the last week there were IDF attacks in Rafah, today they killed a 30 year old woman, and yesterday I saw a woman who was shot in her eyes! The IDF demolished many houses in all the places in Rafah, and they demolished hundreds of olives trees in Rafah...
http://rafah.virtualactivism.net/news/today.htm

------------

27 February:
...Last night, the IDF demolished 7 houses in AL Shaeer street and 3 people were injured, one arrested, and more than 500 HUNDREDS of olives trees were completely demolished...
http://rafah.virtualactivism.net/news/today_two.htm

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29 January:
...The IDF demolished 6 houses in the Tal Alsultan area, there are more than 10 tanks, and 3 bulldozers ... 15 people are injured... Now they are trying to demolish a large building, built by the Canadian government, the "Orphan City" ... this building houses all the orphans (children who have no parents or relatives). Also, they demolished many olives trees...
http://rafah.virtualactivism.net/news/today_one.htm

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8 January 04
...They also demolished a large numbers of olive trees, and vegetables that belonged to Al Abaddla and Al Farra families in Al Qara Camp, and burnt the water machines after demolishing it so they can hide their crimes...
http://rafah.virtualactivism.net/gazanews/gazamain.htm

------------

...As one approaches the area, bulldozers are laying out what looks like a eight-lane highway through some of the richest farmland and olive groves in the West Bank. The Israeli Defense Ministry has acknowledged uprooting 63,000 olive trees. The wall is not on the 1967 border, the Green Line, but cuts deeply into Palestinian territory. The village of Qaffin is completely encircled. The mayor of Qalqilya, a city of 45,000, told our delegation that the wall prevents people from tending their olive trees or vegetable farms, and the wall is a barrier to transporting their produce to market in Nablus and other cities. Demolished homes, empty greenhouses, unattended gardens, uprooted olive trees attest to this fact...
http://www.vtjp.org/letters/Tear_down_the_Wall.htm

------------

...Thus we continued toward Um Safa Beit Rima, Deir Ghassaneh, or Ajul. It was not possible to enter because the streets were totally destroyed. We continued to Abud. As we passed the settlement Halamish, the soldiers at the entrance stopped and inspected us. Soon after, we saw along both sides of a two-kilometer stretch of road, gouged deep into the land, total destruction. Hundreds of olive trees had been uprooted and destroyed, the land scorched, and about 12 tanks and many soldiers working with military bulldozers to destroy and uproot the trees, destroy the land, and level the terraces...
http://www.palaestina.ch/e/report/farhat-naser.html

------------

...As of December 2002, some 11,500 dunams of land have been razed for the footprint of the wall, and 83,000 trees uprooted...
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0306/S00365.htm

------------

November 27, 2000
...And the Israeli army has bulldozed several hundred acres of olive trees in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In Beit Sahur, West Bank, the Israeli troops uprooted 80 trees in a grove that Miriam Sababa planted over 50 years ago. Her family has not told Miriam--now 80 years old and unable to walk because of a stroke--what happened to her trees. Her son said, "We're afraid it will kill her. They're her soul. Her life was put into them." In the Gaza Strip, a small area where the people are very poor, the Israelis have destroyed 250 acres of olive trees in recent weeks...
http://rwor.org/a/v22/1080-89/1080/pales.htm

------------

...In the last two years, the Israeli government has uprooted more than 160,000 olive trees in the West Bank. Many of these trees were hundreds of years old and had sustained the Palestinian economy for generations. Yediot Aharonot reports that large numbers of the uprooted trees, particularly those from near the Green Line, where the security fence is being built, are taken to Israeli nurseries...
http://www.palestineoliveoil.org/links/harvest/oliveloot2.htm

------------

--snip--

Some facts and figures: An olive tree is a natural wonder. It has become a symbol for good reason. Professor Shimon Lavi, one of Israel's greatest experts in this field, Tells us he himself established the age of an olive tree in Gethsemane, Jerusalem: a 1,700 year-old tree, and still bearing fruit. Arabs in the Galilee speak of 3,000 year-old trees. It's a hardy tree and does not die easily. If uprooted correctly and well-tended, Prof. Lavi explains, there is a 95% chance that it will adjust to its new surrounding. Even if it's not too well tended during and after the uprooting, there is still a 25% chance that it will survive.

A modern olive grove in Israel yields nearly 1.5 tons of fruit per dunum, a grove in the West Bank subsisting on rainwater alone will yield 200-300 kg olives per dunum, but this is still a very important source of income in the occupied territories. Nearly 60% of the agricultural produce in the territories are olives. Let alone the emotional and symbolic aspects of this tree. And this branch has taken a deadly blow. The Palestinian Ministry of Agriculture has supplied these data, cited in the Wold Bank report on the economic situation in the occupied territories: In the two years of Intifada, 160,000 olive trees have been uprooted in the territories by the army in its "exposure" operations, for bypass roads, by settler incursions, and now the latest - the "security fence" preparations.

The first section of this line, 110 km, passes mostly through agriculture areas. Hundreds of Palestinians have filed complaints against the seizing of their land. At a village like Zeita, the separation line actually destroys the residents' livelihood. 450 dunum were confiscated for building the "fence", 450 dunum are on the other side of the "fence" and cannot even be reached now. At any rate, Israel's higher court has rejected all appeals and accepted the position of the security forces, claiming the "fence" essential for security reasons. Landowners will be compensated upon proof of ownership.

And what happens to the trees in these areas? "Trees uprooted for the purposes of setting the "fence" will be transplanted wherever possible, in compliance with the owners' requests," answered Captain Gil Limon, the Legal Adviser to the Central Command in a letter of November 3rd, answering objections presented by attorney Azam Bshara of the organization Kanoun on behalf of landowners in the Qalqilya area.

It should be noted that in many cases the contractors who are constructing the "fence" do return the trees to their Palestinian owners. At works done these days in Falame and Jayous near Qalqilya, the uprooted trees are given to their owners. This has also happened elsewhere. But in many cases it has not. At Zeita and Qefin near Bak'a al Gharbiye, at Jammal near Qalqilya, and in many other places, landowners told the same stories: they asked for their uprooted trees, the security people in charge would not let them near the trees, and the uprooted trees were loaded on trucks and gone. Where? No one knows, no one told them.

--snip--

http://www.palestineoliveoil.org/links/harvest/oliveloot2.htm

------------

Israeli Forces Storm Tel village in Nablus Governorate
December 2001

...Tel Village is located 5 kilometers south west of the city of Nablus in Zone A which is completely under the Palestinian rule. The population of the village are estimated at 4 000, mostly work in agriculture. The village is famous of fig and olive trees which both are considered the most important source of economic income for local people...
...Violations in the agricultural field caused by the attack 1. Building a road with 10 meters width and 1.5 kilometer length for the use of a military observation post set up during the attack. 15 dunums of land owned by Said Hamza were leveled and 30 olive trees and 20 fig trees were uprooted as well. Another 20 olive trees and 10 fig trees belonging to farmer Khader Mustafa Asa'ad were uprooted. In addition, 15 olive trees owned by farmer Mohammed Asa'ad Ramadan were also uprooted. 2. Excavating a 2- dunum piece of land owned by farmer Moahmmed Asa'ad Ramadan to establish a military post overlooking the village houses. This location is only 400 meters from the boys' school which creates an atmosphere of tension and panic amongst pupils. 3. Preventing farmers from reaching their agricultural fields situated in the vicinity of the village...
...In 1994, the Israeli occupation authorities built a road bypassing the village from east and south. This project destroyed the total of 240 dunums of agricultural land cultivated with olive and fig trees, where more than 1500 olive trees and 1000 fig have been uprooted. The destroyed land is owned by more than 50 farmers from the village...
http://www.poica.org/casestudies/nablus12-12-01/

------------

...In 1993, the IOF cut down about 700 olive trees on Deir Ballut land, saying that this was Israeli land...
...On 17 November 1998, Israeli authorities demarcated the land for a new bypass road that now cuts through land of the Palestinian villages Broqin, Kufur Adeek, and Deir Ballut. The road links the settlements of Ma'ale Labona, Ele and Shilo and is 7180 metres long. The construction of the road involved the confiscation of 1150 dunums of land, of which 600 dunums were olive groves...
...On January 14th 2000, settlers from Eli Zahaf (protected by IOF troops) uprooted 200 olive trees in Deir Ballut...
http://www.womenspeacepalestine.org/dballutlandtheft.htm

------------

Al-Aqsa Intifada.. Day 50 - 16.11.2000
...Israeli occupation and settlers have destroyed and uprooted as many as ten thousand grown olive trees in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip since the outbreak of al-Aqsa intifada on 28 September. On Wednesday, the Israeli army destroyed over 400 dunums of orchards, including citrus and olive trees, in the Gaza Strip...
http://www.palestinehistory.com/intifada/day50.htm

------------

...The Israeli army today issued a new directive forbidding Palestinians from picking olives in the West Bank. October and November are the main months for olive harvesting.
The Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz reported that the Israeli army issued the prohibition on gathering olive harvests, claiming that Israeli troops could not protect pickers from Jewish settlers. Yediot Ahronot, another Israeli newspaper, further noted that Israel's army could not protect Palestinians because they were fortifying positions in Palestinian cities.
According to information gathered by LAW, Israeli forces were implementing this order from the early hours today. This morning Israeli forces prevented olive pickers from the 'Ayoun al-Haramiyyeh' area, west of Ramallah from picking olives. The forces took away the ID cards of 25 farmers for two hours, and ordered them to return home, threatening to shoot them if they returned...
...On Saturday October 12, settlers opened fire on Palestinian olive pickers in Beit Forik, near Nablus. When Israeli troops arrived to the area they arrested 6 Palestinian farmers and prevented others from harvesting their olive trees. Settlers also carried out similar attacks on Palestinians farmers in Orif, Kfar Kalil, Deir al-Hatab, and Salem in the district of Nablus on the same day. Also on Saturday October 12, Israeli settlers set fire to olive groves in Silwad and al-Mizra'a al-Sharqiyya, east of Ramallah. The fire destroyed approximately 2000 olive trees belonging to Palestinian families...
http://lmno4p.org/fa/FA35.htm

------------

...Until now, we have sold gift certificates of 150 crowns each, enough to cover the cost of 110 olive trees. They will be planted during the march to replace some of the 400,000 trees that have been destroyed and should bear fruit within five years. Most of these gift certificates have been sold to individuals, but trade union locals, institutions and political parties have also bought trees for larger amounts...
http://uscom-humanrightsmarch.org/OrganizingCommittees.html

------------

...From the beginning of the al-Aqsa Intifada until 30th June 2002, Israeli forces demolished 668 Palestinian houses, 585 completely and 102 partially in the Gaza Strip, rendering 5,725 people homeless. They have also razed 15,052 donums of land, about 12,834 of which were agricultural lands, and about 2,218 were wooded land. The areas of agricultural land razed by Israeli forces constitute 9.1% of the total area of agricultural land in the Gaza Strip (165,720 donums)...
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland8.htm

------------

Saturday, 6thApril 2002

...At approximately 06:00, three Israeli heavy military vehicles moved approximately 150m into al-Ja’farawi area, east of Deir al-Balah. A tract of agricultural land was razed and two houses were demolished. Below is the list of damage inflicted by Israeli forces:
They a five-donum area of agricultural land planted with palms, olives and guavas, and destroyed a greenhouse, an agricultural pool, a well, two stores and a water pump, owned by Salama Nasrallah Abu ‘Amra.
-They demolished a 130square-meter, asbestos-roofed house, in which three families comprised of 15 people used to live, owned by Fathi Salama Abu ‘Amra.
-They demolished a 130square-meter, asbestos-roofed house, in which three families comprised of 13 people used to live, owned by Salama Nasrallah Abu ‘Amra...
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland8.htm

------------

Sunday, 7th April 2002
...-They razed a 35donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and fruits and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Fares Jaber al-Ghoul.
-They razed a 10 donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and guavas and destroyed an irrigation network and agricultural equipment owned by Mousa Mahmoud Jaber al-Ghoul.
-They razed a 5donum area of agricultural land planted with fruits and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Jaber Mahmoud Jaber al-Ghoul.
-They razed a 7donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and guavas and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Muyassar Mahmoud Jaber al- Ghoul.
-They severely damaged a 14donum area of agricultural land planted with vegetables and corns and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Mohammed ‘Abdelhai Ma’ruf.
-They destroyed a well owned by Ya’qub Mahdi.
-They destroyed a well owned by Yousef al-Shanti...
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland8.htm

------------

Tuesday, 9th April 2002 (Aidoneus' note: quite a busy day..)
...-They razed a 15donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Ahmed Yousef Shurrab.
-They razed a 15donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Fadel Yousef Shurrab.
-They razed a 10donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Mohammed Yousef Shurrab.
-They razed a 15donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Walid Yousef Shurrab.
-They razed a 10 donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Hassan Yousef Shurrab.
-They razed a 5donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Eihab Khaled Shurrab.
-They razed a 4donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and destroyed an irrigation network owned by the heirs of Ahmed Helmi al-Basha.
-They razed a 4donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Yousef Mohammed al-Safadi.
-They razed a 4donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Abu Khaled al-Nakhala.
-They razed a 3donum area of agricultural land planted with citrus and destroyed an irrigation network owned by Mohammed Ahmed Jarada.
-They destroyed 250 beehives owned by Tawfiq ‘Abdulrahman Wahdan.
-They destroyed 50 beehives owned by Eyad ‘Abdullah Wahdan...
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/sweepingland8.htm

------------

The PCHR reports go on and on and on and on and on and on in a similar fashion.

comprehensive figures on acreage or even on trees. I think we all know how the same story gets redone a hundred and one times, each time trying to sound more impressive.

Something reliable, please. This doesn't validate your claim.

You were talking about thousands of acres of trees destroyed, correct? Trees on Israel's land and crops on Israeli territory don't count for your total, either.

By the way, the land size of donum
1 donum equals 1000 square meters according to your source.

There are 100 donums in a square kilometer. A square kilometer is 0.386 square miles. Therefore, there are close to 3 square dilometers in a square mile. You're going for thousands of square miles, remember?

Please note that thousands of donums of forests have been destroyed in Israel by Palestinians arsonists. It isn't a response to there situation, but I think they have some Tzadaka to do also.

:wow:

is, of course, From the beginning of the al-Aqsa Intifada

None of this occurred prior to the violent Intifada.

Then they claim that they can determine that it was not a military necessity. They are not the judge in that matter.

you can think of a donum as the same as a 1/4 acre minimal size tract-home building lot for those of you who don't do either metric or obscure middle east measurements.

Please check your inbox.

Trees, grass, shrubs all periodically must make way for things mankind builds. In this case, national security is an issue, as exhibited by today's latest terror bombing.

to be gained from destroying thousands of acres of crops?

Picky, picky.

:wow:

Israel lessens the ability of Palestinian terrorists to come and blow up Israelis as they so like to do.

I was not aware of that. In what universe did this happen?

I can just picture the Peace Fence at a Hamas meeting. No, I guess not.

Crop destruction also occurs when you build highways on farmland or houses or hospitals.

the level of denial here is surreal..

the PA's insistance that all those pesky Jews living in the West Bank have to leave so they can have their pure Arab-only state.

You are opposed to the racist expulsion of non-Arabs by the PA. Right?

Even on its best day, that was never cute.. it is good that you have finally given up the practice. :eyes:

I don't give much a damn for the half-collaborationist PA either way, but you'd have to be far more specific if you want my opinion on something like that.

The PA's racist policies call for an Arab-only state of Palestine with all Jews expelled. Do you oppose this policy?

Nor am I seeing what this has to do with the destruction of fruit trees being both a common event and allegedly against Jewish customs. If I didn't know better, I'd think that you were coming out of nowhere to try and divert the subject away from what would be an uncomfortable argument if it didn't have to pass through miles of denial to be even acknowledged..

but are you saying that if the policy exists you oppose it?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

and I resent the accusation.

and the fact that the bigoted idiots at Electronic Intefada don't know the difference between a country with a state religion (like the UK or France) and a theocracy (like so many of EI's friends in the Middle East) shows once again how ridiculously useless and ignorant they are as a "source".

I wonder when we'll see them post articles entitled,
"If it's against Anglican law, then why is the UK doing it?" or
"If it's against Catholic law, then why is France doing it?"

The answer is, of course that they never will. They reserve their mindless rantings for Jews.

It is good to see this Electronic Intefada identified as the bigots they are. Many take their unsubstantiated rantings as fact. Oh, my.

The claim that Electronic Intifada are bigots is as unsubstantiated a ranting as it gets.

Your post is entirely false.

There seems something just a bit strange about the secular Muslims at EI trying to tell the rest of us what is proper Jewish behavior.

They can challenge the behavior of the Israeli government if they like. They are within their rights to do so. But this is a bit tasteless. There are better approaches to solving the conflict than this.

would have such talmudic angst?...

no talmudic scholar meself, but, I think it goes without saying that one can interpret religious law in many number of ways in order to create any number of arguments...

Ali's feeble attempt at dragging Jewish religious law into his bag of political tricks can be blown to smithereens faster than a 'shahid' sitting next to a baby on a bus...

as sanctity of human life is one of the foundations of Jewish law, saving of human life generally takes precedence over all other religious laws...hence, from there, the argument is that life-saving overrides landscaping...

speaking of shahids, you'd think Ali's religous angst would start closer to home where he could wax talmudically about how it is that, per Islamic law, a suicide bomber could be considered a shahid, as in one who dies in defense of faith (allowing that that makes you honorable), rather than for the peculiarly self-seeking interests of Arafat or Rantissi or Yassin (definitely makes you a big schmuck), when, per Islamic law, murder and suicide are both unpardonable sins (not unlike Jewish law), and human sacrifice is prohibited (rooted, of course, in the substitution of a lamb for the sacrifice of the first born son of Abraham, the Hebrew)...

from there he could branch out and pontificate on why it is that none of the suicide murderer/human sacrifice shahids have actually been blood relatives of Arafat or Rantissi or Yassin...you'd think they'd be the easiest to recruit and most willing to be so honored to die for the cause...

because I eat on Yom Kippur. Yet medical necessity takes precedence over fasting.

I just love having my religion explained by people who don't share it.

Although it has been claimed that "the First Intifada was largely non-violent", it did include the destruction of large sections of Israel's forests by arson.

In a comprehensive study of the forests of Israel, the following is said about the causes of forest fires. Not that fires along the Green Line sere determined to be arson.

Fire Causes:
The first and most important cause of forest fires in Israel is arson (Table 2). In the 1980s and early 1990s arson comprised about one-third of all forest fires in Israel -- a very large proportion. Some of the sources for this arson were identified as the work of criminals whose sole aim was to collect insurance money. Many cases of arson in the late 1980s, however, were directly related to the Palestinian uprising (Intifada). Palestinians used fire as a means of their resistance movement as early as the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s, but in the 1980s it was adopted as a highly visible action against the Israeli occupation in the West Bank. Arson was found to be easy to execute: all one had to do was cross the old border, which was unguarded and open to all, start a fire in one of the many forests which straddle the mountainous areas near the border, and then disappear. The occurrence of forest fires in areas adjacent to the old "Green Line" border between Israel and the West Bank was very frequent: in the years 1988-1990 between 288 and 388 forest fires were caused by arson and took place in areas near the old pre-1967 border (Kliot and Keidar 1992). In some of the fires which took place in northern Israel, Israeli Arab Palestinians were found to be responsible. These fires were extremely remarkable because 1988 was also rich in precipitation and, as a result, the vegetation concentration was highly combustible. Intifada-induced arson gradually faded out as the uprising started to die out in the early 1990s.

http://www.fire.uni-freiburg.de/iffn/country/il/il_3.htm

If the ElectronicIntifada were in fact interested in saving trees, they might also deplore this habit of arson amongst the Palestinians. The newly erected anti-terrorism fence will also prevent arson. Saving the forests is saving lives. Israel has a special day to commemorate the birthday of the trees.