At Least 14 Palestinians Killed in Israeli Raids

At Least 14 Palestinians Killed in Israeli Raids
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: March 7, 2004


Filed at 5:22 a.m. ET

BUREIJ REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza Strip (AP) -- Israeli troops raided the outskirts of two Gaza refugee camps Sunday, sparking gun battles that killed 14 Palestinians and wounded more than 80, just one day after militants staged an elaborate attack on soldiers at the main Gaza crossing into Israel.

The dead included at least six militants and three boys -- ages 8, 12 and 15. At least 81 Palestinians were wounded in fighting, local officials said.



Hundreds of children chased after Israeli tanks and soldiers, throwing stones.

The violence was part of a new wave of fighting in Gaza as each side tries to make a proposed Israeli withdrawal from the area look like a victory.

The army said it was hitting the ``terrorist infrastructure'' in Bureij. However, the target of the raid was not immediately clear as no arrests were made.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Israel-Palestinians.html?hp


how's that "peace fence" working for you" ?

also keeping things in. Would've been nice in this case....

gun belts. Nice touch tough guys. Oh wait, they're not really kids - they're 'collateral damage'.

Geeebus - The Palestinians need a fucking peace fence to protect them from the IDF....

The Peace Fence...making the world a better place, one brick at a time.

I'm opposed to 'where' it is. Not so surprisingly the pro-barrier people are less than enthusiastic about addressing that one detail.

It has been discussed - see here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=55377#55386

you just don't like the answers given

The placement should be determined to fit the location. The issues are being addressed and it takes looking closely at the details of the communities involved and the land areas around it. Sometimes adjustments can be made, and they are being made. There was not time to analyze every meter of the way as it was built. It was urgent to get it in place.

When it's not your village being bulldozed to make way for it, eh?

i would hope that peace would prevail. I have undergone hardships for less of a promising outcome than that.

that can prevent helicopters launching missiles

Each group of 2 or 3 terrorists, wearing black hoods and carrying automatic weapons, is guarded by a child looking in every direction, apparently aged 8-10. This is to assure that if terrorists are targeted, a child will be killed also. Of course it is against international laws, but that is their strategy and warfare philosophy. They don't mind targeting Israeli kids, and they train their own, those too young to be suicide bombers, to guard their "warriors".

The kids are their fence and public opinion their mark. All visible on Israeli TV. Check out your news clips.

fucked up. Don't folks around here realize that when 'terrorists' are in the company of children (or any other civillians for that matter), the proper military position is to *STAND DOWN* - not come in with guns-a-blazing, blasting *through* civillians to get *at* the enemy.

Geebus - the discussions that I have down here....

is excuse making for the IDF murders of kids

It's trying to legitimize the terrorists use of children.

I thought they just shot them in the back like the brave hereos they are.

IDF shoots boy in the back

so that's why the IDF guns down unarmed kids in the back.

What bravery.

(Hey! Look there's a kid with a piece of bread! Kill him! Hey watch out there's a boy over there walking down the street! Gun his Palestinian ass down!)

What heroism.

Waiting

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I'm actually scratching my head at the cavalier way that people write off children getting gunned down in an unnecessary conflict and the throwing around of the blame for same. And in a selfish way, I'm glad it's not *my* children we're talking about.

It the 'terrorists' are using children, perhaps the IDF can stand down their Apaches until they're sure they can get a clear shot. It's not like the 'crack' IDF soldiers were in much danger (read the report).

Even by your barometer, we should expect such behaviour from 'bloodthirsty terroists'. Shouldn't the IDF be on the moral high ground - not blasting away at children and pointing the blame elsewhere?

No one was shooting at them. However, the terrorists started to run into the crowd (several hundred men and boys), chasing the children ahead of them and shooting at the IDF.

If you read what I wrote, I did not say that they were shot at, only that the kids were guarding them. Of course, the IDF didn't shoot them without provocation.

This little forum is such an eye-opening experience for the depths to which some have fallen.

One weeps for all of humanity when one reads the filth spewed forth here.

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throwing stones"......

I saw on TV the pictures( this am )....with armed gunman firing
in the middle of groups of kids......very brave to use kids as
human shields.

...One resident, Majed Ibrahim Aaliyan, 30, was forced to walk in front of (IDF) soldiers as they searched the three buildings...

I'm not sure if this qualifies as human shields, as they are asking the owners of the building to enter first. A human shield is like what Arafat has guarding him against an enemy sniper. If the Palestinians shoot without discretion, they might hit their own people. If they are hiding in the building and shoot without knowing their target, then they are doing what you claim Israel does, ie, shoot indiscriminately. If it's wrong for the IDF, then it's wrong for the Palestinians to do so.

You try doing it.

The safest and most expedient course is followed.

They are deliberate cannon fodder so when they enivitibly get killed in the crossfire extreme leftists can once again paint Israel as the villian in this and the terrorists among the Palestinians can feed off the sympathy of said leftists.

I didn't see your post before I wrote mine. You put it very well. Thanks.

That makes the IDF criminals.

And once again, we go through the logic and hypothetical gymnastics so that you can claim that it is the Palestinians who are at fault when the inept IDF gun down children, either by mistake, as an act of murder or as is so popular around here, a case of "collateral damage".

Your reasoning is offensive and flawed. Palestinians 'allow' the IDF to kill children so that they can 'feed of sympathy' of leftists? From what I know, the Palestinians needs are much more immediate than winning a propaganda point against the IDF. Even if your point *is* true (which it is not) it would have to mean that the IDF are 'allowing themselves' to be 'used' in the very same propaganda campaign and that they are playing along by killing children. Not exactly the 'moral high ground' is it? Surely *NOT* shooting the children would be a better propaganda victory for the IDF, rather than this constant battling against a image of being murderers and goons.

I am one of those 'leftists'. Aren't you?

Gratifying to see others here critcal of extreme leftists and their misguided sympathies.

Yeah, and those 8,000 civilians that the US shot and bombed in Iraq deserved it, too. ;)

Collateral damage--it is not just an American term.

when was the last time you saw TV footage of the IDF shooting civilians? doesn't happen often - hence why the footage of Muhammad Al-Dura's death was so appaling, it was business as usual for the Palestian people.

Please don't "see something on TV" and think you have all the answers, TV news reflects, the owner of the station and any agenda they may have, what the public wants to see (any US news media telling the truth about Palestian lives would be howled out of existence- they're in business) and the fact that the Israeli's have better technology and better media contacts.

The IDF was courageous.



"The fighting pitted hundreds of Palestinians armed with assault rifles, anti-tank missiles and grenade launchers against Israeli troops firing from helicopters, tanks and rooftop sniper positions."

For those that wail about poor unarmed Palestinians.


"Palestinian children chased after Israeli tanks and jeeps, throwing stones."

Will no parents be responsible for these children? They see Israel bring justice, yet endanger themselves. Oh, my.

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You smear the good name of the brave and moral IDF.

against a defenseless civilians population.

Brave my ass.

from the BBC story:

Israeli tanks supported by attack helicopters first moved into the camps under cover of darkness.

My, how brave and courageous to hop in those tanks and helicopters and start firing on a refugee camp. My what heroism.

There were no Israeli casualties reported, and the army has now withdrawn.

Wow that was really brave to assault a defenseless refugee camp under cover of darkness and start firing from inside those tanks and helicopters.

The IDF are cowardly terrorists.

For introducing a few facts.....

not everyone is as peace loving and "Saintly" as
Rachy.

Extreme leftists seem more inclined to support terrorists' allies such as Ms. Corrie and oppose the IDF, which seeks to defeat terror. Oh, my.

Once again, I am asking you to provide *one* shred of evidence that Ms. Corrie was *convicted* of *any* terrorist activity. You continue to smear her, while one of the reasons you used to smear was factually incorrect. You claim that the bulldozer driver is 'innocent until proven' guilty, yet will not extend that same courtesy to her. Why is that?

if others would also claim that the bulldozer driver "is innocent until proven guilty".

More than a few posters have played judge, jury, witness and God around here.

of getting a straight answer from Mr. Herschel may improve if I can get others on this board to change their minds, about something they feel very strongly about?

Guess I'll have to pass and stick to making assumptions about the hypocrisy involved...

But for others it's not appropriate?

No assumptions needed, regarding hypocrisy.

:shrug:

I didn't exepct Herschel to change his mind and be open. Far from it. I simply asked him to answer a question that I had asked before, and that he had avoided. You can see the quesrtion several posts up. I don't mind you putting words in my mouth. But it negates your parting shot 'regarding hypocricy'

Not sure why you're running cover for Hershcel, but no mind....I'll stick to my assumptions. Thanks anyway.

what some people myself included have said is that I have personally spoken to members of ISM who were there - YOU responded with "I've spoken to IDF personel" to which I asked who - as it is completely against IDF policy and you would in great demand for the story if it were true. I imagine the IDF would also wish to speak to you.

I also asked you why anyone would manufacture or buy a vehicle in which one could not see what is in ones direct path?

every time it's been brought up you disappear from the thread - what did the IDF people that you "spoke to" say about this incident and how come you could get a story no-one in the media could?

it's not really neccesary to answer the query as to how it was that you got to speak to the IDF personnel who were present at the crushing of Rachel Corrie given that it is against IDF policy and that they have refused journalists that opportunity...but if you want the thread....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=51625

"when one of mine has been answered. I too have spoken with members of the IDF and their claims are in direct opposition to your claims.

You apparently are speaking with ISM members who have the same degree of separation from this incident as do the IDF members that I have spoken with. Neither group would have any information allowable in any court in the world. That being the case, neither discussions are relevant."

Now show me where I claim that the IDF personal I spoke with were present at the accident? I'm sorry, knee jerk reactions are unacceptable. As a matter of fact, what I alluded to was the kids I spoke to probably had the same degree of separation as the ISM people you spoke with. Now if I am wrong about that, why not take the time to explain all the descrepancies in the ISM's changing versions of events.

opinions were biased - BUT I said I spoke to people who were ACTUALLY there - when you replied you certainly did not make clear that the people YOU spoke to were not there, you didn't even mention it - THAT's a big difference. Just an aisde...as you brought up what would be "allowable" or admissable in a court - the testimony of the people I spoke to WOULD be admissable as they were present the people you apparently spoke to WOULDN'T be as not being present their testimony would be hearsay

But to give you the benefit of the doubt - what was the rank of these IDF folk you spoke to? I ask because by speaking to you they STILL broke the rules of the IDF? and I find this rather strange

I would hope you will now clear up the descrepancies please.

I can not "explain any inconsistencies" for a start I have no idea what inconsistencies you're talking about.

They area not MY people, I am NOT a member of ISM and I DO NOT speak for them.

I just know what 2 seperate people WHO WERE THERE told me.

So (again) how was it you got to speak to IDF personel?

It's the law that presumes innocence until found guilty, and there's no more an onus on us lay-folk to presume that driver is 'innocent until proven guilty' than there is for the 'pro-Israel' types to presume that those many alleged Hamas members killed without trial by the IDF are 'innocent until proven guilty'. I've said here many times that at best the driver is guilty of extreme negligence and should be charged with manslaughter, and at worst he ran her down in cold-blood and should be charged with murder. I'd be more inclined to believe the former if there had been any sort of willingness for an independent and transparent investigation into Rachel Corrie's death to be carried out. But there hasn't been and I don't find it out of the realms of possibility that this particular driver was so callous and had such an utter disregard for human life that he ran her down on purpose. And if he did, I don't see why it would bother the type of folk who make jokes about her death and slander her by calling her a terrorist-supporter. After all, that bulldozer driver would have been doing the world a favour, at least that's what their logic would lead to...

More than a few posters have played judge, jury, witness and God around here.

Yes, including one in one of these recent threads who insists her death was an accident. I would expect anyone who has a problem with posters holding an opinion that she was murdered because no-one knows for sure, would also have problems for exactly the same reason with anyone holding the opinion that her death was an accident....

Violet...

though I have no evidence she carried out an act of terror. Recall that she died impeding an IDF operation.

Thank you.

And she died while she was *peacefully* protesting an IDF operation. Civilized societies allow that. Civilized people encourage it.

Ony goons, thugs and RW shills would cheer when young women are crushed doing it.

Take your pick.

She attempted to impede an IDF operation. It was confrontational rather than peaceful.

Yep, just like the Chinese student in Tiennamen Square.

You act like Corrie was shooting at the IDF goonsquad bulldozer driver.

She didn't even throw a rock at him.

and risked her life in the process. You know the rest.

and risked her life in the process. You know the rest.

I attempted to impede Bush's war in Iraq by protesting.

I guess I deserved to die, too.

which was: The demolition of houses of non-terrorists to make way for a "security zone."

How fucking noble...

If the US destroyed the houses of Iraqi civilians in Baghdad to build a "security zone" or Berlin-like or Warsaw ghetto wall, all the so-called lefties in here would be up in arms.

will not extend that same courtesy to her (Corrie). Why is that?

I think we all know that answer to that one.

The IDF is terror personified.

If the Palestinians had Apache helicopters and US made tanks, do you think they'd still be throwing rocks at tanks and using primitive mortars and suicide bombers to attack soft targets (civilians?)

There is no good and moral side to this conflict. Everybody's dirty--especially those scumbag terrorists Sharon and Arafat.

Or do you have some sort of morbid fascination with this woman? While complaining bitterly that people wish to mourn her, you can't quite seem to let it go, and inject her name into the dialogue on a regular basis.

Any particular reason?

i must have missed the 3 same threads/articles started on her in the
past 3 days here.

Or didn't *you* just inject her name into a totally unrelated thread?

it would have gotten around to her anyway.

You're the one that 'got around to her'.
Do you have a fixation on the poor woman?

than talk about Israeli terrorist operations on refugee camps

Israel's murders of civilians?

You brought up the word "camps". Why didn't you comment on the "camps?" posted?

it has nothing to do with Israel murdering civilians and gunning down kids in the back

It might be interesting.

Why not change the subject?

Hey, in your mind, has Israel or the IDF ever killed someone who didn't deserve to be killed?

penned in like animals, and even treats their Arab citizens who have Israeli citizenship like second class citizens, why would you expect those people to accept their condition as fate like good little concentration camp sheeple?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2992635.stm

*Snip*

In the Palestinian territories, Unicef believes families are still generally succeeding in protecting their children and keeping them away from flashpoints.

Most of their children who have been killed have been bystanders, in their homes or on their way to and from school.

In the most difficult circumstances, Unicef believes it has had some success in alleviating the suffering of Palestinian children. Much of this has centred around summer camps, which over the last two years have benefited more than 30,000 youngsters. Unicef says the camps allow the children to play and develop such skills as empathy, critical thinking, listening and decision making.

The UN also supports media activities, including story writing by Palestinian adolescents on the current conflict.

*Snip*

number in the thousands and range in age from 10 to 17. The next time a so called Palestinian child is taken down, these camps should be remembered.

not "taken down." Murdered.

Or as the Israel's/Likud's/PNAC'ers/Pentagon calls it:

"Collateral damage"

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/12/10/News/News.39687.html

(15:15) Two Palestinian children killed in IAF attack
By The Jerusalem Post Internet Staff


Two Palestinian children were killed when an IAF helicopter, apparently targeting an Islamic Jihad leader, fired at least two missiles at a car in Hebron earlier this afternoon.

The two children killed in the attack, who may have been in a nearby car at the time, were aged three and 13-years-old.

Seven other people were wounded in the missile attack.

if the primary target is legitimate and an effort made to avoid civilian casualties.

But you incorrectly assume there is an effort to avoid civilian casualities. Tank shells and rockets fired from helicopters into apartments or into crowded bazaars aren't very discriminating.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2992635.stm

Last Updated: Friday, 2 May, 2003, 12:55 GMT 13:55 UK

Counting the cost in children's lives

By Martin Lumb
BBC News Online

Muhammad al-Dura: One of the first young victims of the intifada
Whatever the outcome of the latest Middle East peace initiative, it has come too late for the many children on both sides who have been maimed physically and mentally by the war.

Since the current upsurge in violence - the second intifada - began in 2000, 528 children have been killed.

Of those 436 were Palestinian and 92 Israeli, according to the United Nations children's agency, Unicef.

The violence in Gaza on Wednesday night - some of the worst ever seen there - has added to the list.

Among the Palestinians killed were three more children - a boy of two, and two 13-year-olds, doctors said.

*more*

and the higher number of Palestinian children does not justify their cause. Also, it is important to know how many of these children were armed or combatants.

if the IDF is so brave and moral how do you explain the refuseniks? are they all secretly in the pay of Arafat? or maybe they're some insidious plot to destroy Israel??

I don't think there's been a single US soldier refusing to go to Iraq, and I think we can all agree that was nothing but an imperialist land grab? yet there are hundreds of Israeli soldiers who do not agree with your "brave and moral" assetrion - I can't help thinking they'd know more about it than you?

doing the same in Iraq? is it just slightly possible that the refuseniks know a little more about what's happening on the ground in Palestine than you do???

didn't mean to do that - fingers go to fast for me sometimes - take the above question to be directed at Herschel :)

USING US MADE APACHE HELICOPTERS AGAINST STONE THROWING CHILDREN IS BRAVE AND MORAL ONLY IN BIZZAROWORLD.

Perhaps this should be required viewing for Palestinians contemplating resistance.

for anyone who believes the IDF are "brave and moral" and that the occupation is not brutal and vile

http://www.yesh-gvul.org/english/

Hey, this was just pre-emptive murder, part of the Bush doctrine.

These boys just might have grown up to be terrorists.

But the IDF needs to pre-emptively murder Palestinians much sooner; they should target all pregnant Palestinian women.

Were they combatants? Or killed accidentally? None of these are murder.

or on purpose?

I guess you never heard of negligent homicide?

The parents of a child killed by a drunk driver or stray bullet grieve as much as the parents of a child murdered by a pedophile or an IDF jackbooted thug taking revenge for the latest suicide bombing.

You cannot fire into a crowd and then claim you were behaving responsibly.

Gee, I wish I could see everything in black and white like you and pResident Bush.

They could have been killed by Palestinian grenades thrown into the group. The real negligence is the the Palestinian leaders who allow and encourage children to be present at the conflicts. They often use the children to guard the armed combatants. This is a war crime.

According to UNICEF, 85% of the Palestinian children killed by the IDF have been bystanders.

There are problems with that statement. First of all, a child under the age of 15 would always be considered a bystander. No reason for him or her to be targeted. However, if a child of 12 is standing in a group of terrorists, one has to consider who placed him there and why.

it doesn't matter where he or she is standing

no of course not! :crazy: