Soldiers kill Hebron's Islamic Jihad leader; revenge promised

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1060829010284

Israeli troops killed a top Islamic Jihad fugitive in a gun battle at his hideout Thursday, prompting threats of revenge by the militant group and placing further strain on an already shaky cease-fire that is vital to a U.S.-backed peace plan.

The bloodied body of the wanted man, Mohammed Sidr, was pulled from the rubble of a small warehouse after daybreak Thursday, following a standoff of several hours during which he traded fire with troops. A Kalashnikov assault rifle was found near his body. The military said the warehouse doubled as a bomb lab.

Several hours after the battle, soldiers blew up the remains of the building where Sidr held out.

Israel holds Sidr responsible for the deaths of 19 Israelis and two international observers, one from Switzerland and one from Turkey, in several bombings and shootings.

.......................................................

had Abu gotten rid of this thug, then israel wouldnt have had to.

do some people have a hard time understanding? :shrug:

Does not mean sit around and do nothing while a terrorist organization continues to plan and acquire the resources to murder more of your innocent civilians.

If I didn't know any better, after reading the threads this morning, the supporters of the Palestinians are far more outraged over the deaths of terrorists and their cronies than they are the two innocent Israelis who were blown up by suicide bombers from said terror organizations.

But that's par for the course. A Palestinian terrorist organization blows up innocent Israelis, and the progressive liberals here condemn the IDF's efforts to combat the terror groups, put the IDF on par with the terrorist groups they are fighting, and accuse Israel of aggression.

I don't know how to make that more clear to someone.

on edit: I don't think you understand, I'm not that concerned about Mohammed Sidr (I think he is a very minor sort of terrorist compared to most of the current Knesset members and my lack of sympathy extends to them, but that's neither here nor there).

What I'm concerned about is the very deliberate effort to try and kickstart the violence again. Obviously when Israel breaks this cease-fire various groups have the capability to revenge themselves at will, immediately and the lack of these sorts of attacks when Israel leaves people the hell alone shows an obvious contempt for any sort of peace process.

Stopping a terrorist organization from murdering your civilians before they get the chance to do so is not "kick-starting the violence." It is protecting your innocent civilians from barbaric murder and fighthing those who are attempting to carry it out. Once again, Israel is in the wrong because it tried to stop a gang of murderers from carrying out their deeds, and the murders are excused because they weren't actually able to carry out the plan.

Whatever.

Isreal sponsors terrorism
I guess it's okay to kill Palenstians and bulldoze their homes.
When they fight back they are labeled terrorists.
So I see no reason not to turn that right back at the sharon gang.

works both ways.

which, like other standing armies, often kills people but does not deliberately target completely civilian groups. By definition, a terrorist organization, which is stateless, deliberately targets civilians. When they target military installations and personnel, we do not refer to that as a terrorist attack. Bulldozing the home of a known terrorist is not a terrorist act, although it is a very painful event for his family.

Israel does refer to attacks on their occupying army as "terrorist attacks", as does the US/western media. In fact, the US government has gone even further than that and said it views rock throwing and rioting in occupying territory as "terrorism against Israel".

do not refer to attacks on the military as terrorist attacks; they seem to fall into a grey category of not quite war. I think the attack on the USS Cole was one of those. The people interviewed at the Pentagon after 9/11 viewed the attack on themselves as different from the attack on the World Trade Center. I've never heard of rock-throwing being called terrorism; only stupid.

Is irrelevent to the point at hand. Israel calls attacks on its occupying army "terrorism", and the U.S. government has called rocking throwing and rioting "terrorism against Israel". Every word of the above post is accurate.

I assume no citation is required for the fact Israel refers to attacks on its military as terrorism. For the second point:

"the PLO must call off the riots, which we view as terrorist acts against Israel" - leaked transcript of U.S-PLO dialogue, (referring to the first Intifada, before the use of Molotovs), 1988.

Now you have heard of rock-throwing being called terrorism.

it's right in front of your eyes and you still can't see it.

the use of loaded language that's not my problem
I'm just pointing out the double talk related to this issue

I was talking to Proublib and the incredible ability of the reflexive Israeli defender to ignore the obvious.

doh!

The hudna, which roughly translates as cease-fire but has subtle meanings of preparing for battle, is the brain-child of the Palestinian terrorist groups themselves. According to the road map, these active militant groups are to be dismantled. What part of dismantling don't you understand?

Israel didn't agree to a cease-fire. In fact, Israeli leaders declared their intention of striking at "smoking-gun" terrorist situations. That was understood up-front. the hudna was declared in an attempt to hobble the road map, and make the conditions those of the terrorist organizations, not the internationally promoted "road map".

Who really cares as long as the violence is stopped? I also have no idea where you got the idea that Hamas, et al have to be dismantled according to the "road map", I've read the thing and it's not in there, it's just Sharon's demand to try and stall.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I could point you to about a few hundred people arrested since the "road map" was trotted out but why bother, to be honest I wonder why the Mazen bothered since you already know that it's all a big sham and that Israel ever takes their boots off the Palestinian's neck all the "terrorists" are going to drive away a nuclear power committing suicide with fertilizer bombs :eyes:

I don't see "dismantling" anything in there and since I'm sure your idea of "fighting terrorism" would be something like an Arab facade government doing what Israel does now for them I'm sure nothing done will appease you.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

"I could point you to about a few hundred people arrested since the "road
map""

Point away,buddy.

"I don't see "dismantling" anything in there "

youre joking right??

"Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus begins
sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged
in terror and DISMANTLEMENT of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure."

i'm embarressed for you STANDWATIE.

http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en34660&F_catID=&f_type=source

Just another nugget to go down the memory hole of the committed propagandist. It's not worth doing because you are dragging me into a position where I would apparently agree that the PA's job is to arrest anyone who acted violently against the IDF, settlers, Israeli civilians (the Israeli propaganda version of "terrrorist"), but be advised that the first victim of the marketing pro is themselves and can lead to nasty shocks later when they remain the only one convinced.

"I could point you to about a few hundred people arrested since the "roadmap".

A FULL 20 PEOPLE they arrested.wow. i'm underwhelmed.

wheres the "few hundred" you were going to "point" out
to me?? empty promises...so sad.

by the way, did you happen to read that road-map again??

and I'm done pointing things out that screw up your imaginary world.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm

Phase I: Ending Terror And Violence, Normalizing Palestinian Life, and Building
Palestinian Institutions -- Present to May 2003

snip

Palestinians declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake
visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and
groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.
Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus begins sustained,
targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror
and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. This includes
commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and consolidation of security authority,
free of association with terror and corruption.
...........................................................

arrest,disrupt and restrain....NONE

Confronting all those engaged in terror....NONE

Dismantlement of terrrorist capabilities....STRIKE 3.

Which part seems to be confusing??

Of course any reduction of violence is welcome. The hudna, however, is a temporary cease-fire, with an aim to gather force for a new onslaught. The road map calls for an unconditional cease-fire on the Palestinian side.

The dismantlment of militant organizations is specifically called for in the Road Map. Abbas is dragging his heals on this saying it would ignite a civil war. It is obvious that the terrorists have a large following amongst the Palestinian population. If not, how would a civil war result from their dismantlment?

and they are very, very, rightly cynical that he could ever attain anything more than a new prison with a less intrusive staff through negotiating with Israel.

.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

if you read the article, it says...

"Israel holds Sidr responsible for the deaths of 19 Israelis and two international observers, one from Switzerland and one from Turkey, in several bombings and shootings."

too bad abu mazen hasnt seem fit to "dismantle" the
terrorists AS HE AGREED TO. Arafats little understudy
can blame himself.

it's ridiculous, there was never an agreement to "dismantle" (whatever the hell that means) anything, you just made that up because there must be SOME reason why peaceful Israel which would like nothing better than to see the product of 48's carnage sitting next to it as a state instead of an Israeli prison would act like this.

on edit: I don't read Perle's rag and if it said the sky was blue I'd check outside sources.

.

That is one of the funniest statements I've read in maybe five minutes. What planet do you live on? Mazzan stood in front of cameras in front of the entire world and pledged to dismantle (that means take apart) all terrorist groups.

Now clap your hands if you beleive in faeries..

asks the PA to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure. That does not neccesarily mean "arrest or kill all the terrorists." DEstroying their capability to make attacks would qualify. One way to do that is to eliminate the empathy many of the Palestinians have for the suicide bombers-in other words, DISMANTLE THE OCCUPATION!

thats the worst rationalization i've heard yet.

"Palestinians declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.
Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus begins sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. This includes commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and consolidation of security authority, free of association with terror and corruption."

what part of "arrest,disrupt and restrain" is confusing you ?

"This includes commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and consolidation of security authority, free of association with terror and corruption."

yea,Darranar ...you cant explain that away.
sad

Yes, I forgot about the arrest part.

Anyway, the rest only supports my arguments. It would indeed disrupt and restrain the terrorists if they lost most of the sympathy they get from many of the Palestinians. It might also allow the Palestinian government to arrest the terrorists who won't stop without as much disruption.

You call them terrorists, acknowledge the support of Palestinians, yet defend them? do you feel the same about Al Quida? What about the Klan? A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist.

The Palestinians? I defend them because the vast majority of them are innocent. There are some among them, however, who support or tolerate the terrorists because of the occupation. If the occupation ended, it would be far easier for the PA to arrest terrorists without causing a civil war.

"It would indeed disrupt and restrain the terrorists if they lost most of the sympathy they get from many of the Palestinians."

Prove it.You can believe that if you want to, but there is a
whole of dead israelis who would prove you wrong.

Sorry you feel the pa/plo is worthy of your defense when in
reality they have done NOTHING to deserve it.

How do you think the terrorists manage to survive IDf raid after IDF raid? The way all resistance fighters and guerilla fighters and terrorists have always survived-by hiding among the populace, especially those with sympathy towards them. If they couldn't do this, they would fall.

"The way all resistance fighters and guerilla fighters and terrorists have always survived-by hiding among the populace, especially those with sympathy towards them."

So know your implying the some of the palestinian "populace"
are involved as co-terrorists by aiding and abetting
these atrocities??

are you sure you want to go there??

Crucial word: Some. Not most. Hardly even many. But some, the same way that some Israelis advocate transfer of the Palestinians and an ethnically cleansed state. You and others have said that much of that would go away without Palestinian terrorism; well, much of this would go away without Israeli terrorism. Two sides of the same coin.

you like using those words dont you?
Im sure it makes you feel that theres some moral
eqivalence between terrorists and their victims.


no....not everyone is blameless and not everyone
is blameful.
your confusing terrorism with counter-terrorism..again.

Hey...theres an opening for a human shield in israel.
Would you be interested??

a suicide bomber kills an Israeli child. What's the difference, drdon?

Then there's less blatant acts that could be considered terrorism, like the racist law, the wall, the bulldozing of the houses, the settlements, etc.

The innocent civilians-on both sides-are the victims. The extremists-on both sides-are the terrorists.

the diffence seems to escape you...doesnt it.

intentionally blowing up busses and pizzerias is
an disgusting atrocity.......terrorists hiding
amoung the "populace" put innocent people at risk.

So whose fault is that, huh??

as for the wall, i hope the terrorists arent
too inconvienced. i really feel for them.

It is also a large number of Palestinians, made refuges on their own land.

No, I don't get the difference. The IDF soldier shoots the child on purpose; the suicide bomber murders the child on purpose. The only difference is the delivery.

So blame the terrorists and (what you described)
as that small number of the palestinian "populace"
that aids and abets these these terrorists.

that job of human shield is still open.

I DO blame the terrorists. I simply don't distinguish between Israeli and Palestinian terrorists in my judgement.

"The IDF soldier shoots the child on purpose"

prove it or retract it.

sorry for the misunderstanding. I have one question for you, however: Do you know that these events occur, regardless of rarity or lack thereof, and do you condemn them?

i hate the loss of all life. period.

but i also put the blame where it belongs.
I dont find excuses for wanton deliberate murder.
And i dont find some psycho-bs moral equivalence
to the terrorists and their victims.

Please do so.

run it by me again.

Are you aware that IDF soldiers kill civilians on purpose?

bull.

prove it.

the answer's no. Just wondering out of curiosity...

Btw, it isn't bull. Thousands of Palestinians have died. Not all of them were militants or terrorists. A large number were in fact civilians. By the laws of probability, it is impossible to assume that all were killed by accident or all were killed in order to protect a greater number of Israeli lives.

I've been posting here long enough to read articles and posts about the intentional killing of civilians by the IDF. I posted part of a HRW report in another thread last night that proved it too. So my question would be why should anyone be expected to prove anything to someone who's so intent on insisting that Israel NEVER does anything wrong that they stick their head up the closest dark, dank place they can find and go into total denial mode? Mind you, that's a question you actually don't need to answer this time. I've noticed how you avoid answering any questions put to you, so I don't want to add to the strain :)

Violet...

Palestinians throw rocks at terrorist on their way for attacks.

15:16 IDF Intelligence Chief tells gov`t that Palestinians in some places threw stones at militants en route to attacks

News Update

Note: The people become wise and have had enough.

Ethnic cleansing? Of all the people on the face of the earth, Israelis are the least likely to use "ethnic cleansing. No sir/madam, there is NO MORAL EQUIVALENCY HERE!

If the Palestinians put down their weapons there would be no war.
If the Israelis put down their weapons there would be no Israel.

I guess you need to read more about the Moledet party...

There are plenty of settlers and extremist Israelis who advocate ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. There are Palestinian extremists who advocate ethnic cleansing of the Isrealis. Don't attack one while ignoring the other.

No one to my knowledge has ever claimed Israelis are not human with all the usual human successes and failings. The problem is you are talking about a fringe group as though they were the Likud. These people (the fringe group) are not in power. On the other hand it is the goal of the Palestinians to drive all Jews into the sea. Read their manifesto!

Please do not liken a fringe group to the PA who is in complete, total, uncontested control. That is like saying the KKK or the Nazis are in control of the US. Get Real!

I'm not sure I'd call it a fringe group. Anyway, the West bank and Gaza are not democracies. The etxremists are indeed the people in power there, but i don't know what to call Sharon aside from an extremist.

Please tell me where it says this in the "manifesto"

Also, please look at the Likud Charter and tell me what you see.

...something about "persuading" the Arabs to leave the West Bank and go to Jordan.

You were saying who's in power?

Two things. First ethnic cleansing is not the same as genocide. While both are heinous crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing concerns the planned displacement of a population from land for ethnic reasons. Genocide is the killing of a population for ethnic reasons.

Second, Israelis and Jews are not a monolithic people and do have their share of extremists. This includes a small number who openly advocate for the equivalent of ethnic cleansing (transfer of Palestinians from the territories to other Arab countries). One example of such a small, politically organized group espousing such a belief is the Moledat party. Again, while they have a small influence, it does show that such a belief is extant in Israel despite the painful history of both ethnic cleansing (Russian Pogroms) and genocide (Nazi Germany).

L-

There are extremists amongst every people. Extremism does not pick and choose.

tell us what the definition of 'is, is', is...

n/t

n/t...

'I asked you first..' nardy nardy nah nah! What else am I going to be inflicted with here? 'It is because I say so!!'? Just a hint, but if you ever get round to asking a genuine question that you sincerely want an answer to, you won't go into pre-school mode when asked why yr asking it. You'll do what anyone wanting an answer would do and explain what yr looking for and maybe word yr request differently so that the person yr asking understands....

Violet...

"You'll do what anyone wanting an answer would do and explain what yr looking for and maybe word yr request differently so that the person yr asking understands...

YES MA'AM

(and you think you are inflicted?...aaaaiiiiieeeee)...

Though my own pre-teen prefers right now to call me Hitler-Mum when I refuse to let her ride buses through three interchanges so she can hang out till 10pm with older kids. Seriously, if you take some advice on how to participate on this forum in a constructive and genuine way as schoolmarm scolding, then that's a problem you have to deal with on yr own. The thought of getting into a schoolmarm spanking session with you is making my lunch start to come back up. Yuck...

Violet...

Your advice...:eyes:

Your anecdotes...:hurts:


Your pre-teen...:boring:



Likewise...:puke:

...end of peace process. :eyes:

Do, please, put up your stakes, and allow me to cover a hundred of the wager at two for one.

The recent announcement that Israel will turn over security responsibility for four cities within the fortnight would seem to indicate that both the Israeli government and the Palestine Authority mean to continue a path of negotiation regardless of the low intensity hostilities continuing.

Since the cease-fire is a declaration of the various irregular bodies, never ratified between hostile parties, and binding only on themselves, they can hardly expect not to be subject to attack when they have broken their own strictures, for whatever reasons they have chosen to do so.

What is essential is that the responsible governing authorities continue with negotiation despite occassions of violence: this is the only way to remove the "ultras' veto" from the process.

and the debate whilst vigorous and intellectual, seems to suffering for the same malaise as the I/P situation,that being there does not seem to be a solution, ..this war/jihad has killed ,maimed too many innocent israelis and palestinians for lasting peace to have a chance..blame must be appropriated to both sides..as both sides have committed atrocities that is undeniable..

peace

does not apply to this situation. There is no equivelency between a murderer and the victim.

so why do you attack the Palestinians as a people (the victims) and defend the extremists in Israel (the murderers)?

Gee darraner.....its good to see your moral
ignorance is still intact.


And btw, as far as i'm concerned you just disgraced
the memory of the innocent victims of suicide bombers.

Dont bother to respond....i would probably be
immediately banned telling you what i think of that
post.

BOTH the Israeli people and the Palestinian people are the innocent victims in this conflict. Their governments have been hijacked by extremists and they as a whole get criticized and attacked for what those extremists are doing. The extremists on the other side are attacking the innocent among them, strengthening the extremists on their side because the only support those extremits can muster is through fear and a desire for revenge.

Those extremists are the murderers. The Palestinian and the Israali peoples are the victims.

people often get things ass backwards. Sir/Madam, just read some history. Who has always attacked whom? Which entity publicly calls for the extermination of the other? Here is an online site to help educate you. However, a psychologist I know once said "two things are impossible to change, the weather and an ignoramus' mind." I post to those willing to learn.



http://arabterrorism.tripod.com/index.html

i'm too disgusted with the post to try.

have you responded to post #75 yet?

i know youre rap about "extremeists on both sites".
hell....we all know it.

hey take a few minutes and read rini's refenence.

http://arabterrorism.tripod.com/index.html

you know ....you might expand your mind....
rather than regurgitating the same repetitive talking
points.

"ya neva know"

"We with the help of God will meet next time in Jerusalem, because we are fighting in order to bring the victory to our prophets, every baby, every child, every man, every woman, and every older person, and all the youngsters, we will sacrifice ourselves for our holy places, and we will establish the guard on them, and are prepared to give 70 of our martyrs for every martyr of theirs in this campaign, because this is our holy land. We will continue to fight..."

is hardly balanced. That site, biased or not, doesn't disprove what I say: There are extremists on both sides, on the palestinian side and the israeli side.

They ignore the violent extremists on the Israeli side, as do many of the so-called "pro-Israel" posters here.

It's just soooo disgusting that someone could point out the blatantly obvious fact that there's extremists on both sides. Pointing out hard, cold facts like that can cause some who will defend EVERYTHING Israel does to break into a cold sweat and rush off to LGF to wallow in the anti-Arab muck, and wail about how they're being expected to try to respond to posts that point out that extremists are on both sides. The reason you can't respond to posts with anything is because yr very aware that there is extremism on both sides, and to condemn extremism when it comes to Israeli extremists would mean that you have to label yrself anti-Israel and anti-Semitic and we can't have that now, can we? ;)

Violet...

you see, I hear about things like the Moledet party, which openly calls for the transfer of the Palestinians.

I don't understand you. You paint ALL of the Palestinians as war-mongering extremists, and when someone points out that there are Israeli extremists as well, you call them "fringe groups."

I really hope Bush says that at some point, Nixon-style :D

for war crimes in Iraq, and a huge amount of evidence is found that they were committed with his approval: "I am not a war criminal."

LOL!