Israeli professor accuses Israel of genocide in European newspaper

http://www.maarivenglish.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=5519

In an article published in a Belgian newspaper, Dr. Lev Greenberg of Ben-Gurion University labels Israel's actions "criminal" and calls on the world to stop Sharon immediately.

<snip>

""The murder of Sheikh Yassin is part of an Israeli policy, which can be described as symbolic genocide". This claim was made by Ben-Gurion University professor Lev Greenberg in a recent article published in the Belgian daily 'La Libre Belgique'. Greenberg, a member of the university's political sociology department, served as spokesman for the “Yesh Gvul” peace organization in 1982, was imprisoned in 1987 for refusal to serve in the territories, and is an outspoken supporter of soldiers who currently refuse to serve there.

Greenberg's article harshly attacks Israeli government policy. "The only people to suffer from the Holocaust are now performing genocide on the Palestinians", he wrote. It is a criminal act. I appeal to Europe and the international community to save Israel from itself and from its government", he added.

"The government of Israel is asymmetrically liquidating and destroying the Palestinian people. Israel has invented bureaucratic jargon to camouflage its criminal acts: murder becomes targeted killing; occupation and repression are called the peace process. The Palestinians have offered endless cease fires. But Sharon responds by assassinating the democratic leadership of the Palestinian people. The government of Israel is leading the Middle East to Jihad. The world must stop Sharon immediately", Greenberg wrote."

"The only people to suffer from the Holocaust are now performing genocide on the Palestinians", he wrote. It is a criminal act. I appeal to Europe and the international community to save Israel from itself and from its government", he added.

Such strong criticism coming from Israel itself! What will he be labeled now for this? The usual BS?

A brave man, Mr Greenberg! A :toast: for you!

"The only people to suffer from the Holocaust"? Yes, the Jews suffered, greatly and terribly; but homosexuals, the mentally ill, Gypsies, Communists, and MILLIONS of others died, too (the total dead, including non-Jews: eleven million). One would think that a man who holds a chair in "political sociology" might be expected to know something of history.

Killing the Hamas leader was by far better than trying to stop each Hamas member by arrest or in a gun fight. The targeting of such a political leader is in no way genocide. The random killing of citizens for no legitimate reason is. The Professor Greenberg has it all wrong.

I guess "symbolic" = "horseshit."

"cultural genocide", "politicide", or "ethnic cleansing" would be far more suitable, for reasons I have worked out previously (in response to you personally, in fact).

You mean like the PA does in the West Bank or Gaza, ridding itself of Jews? Or you mean like the Arab world did ridding itself of Jews in almost all parts of the Arab world?

Funny, neither seem to apply to Israel which is not only democratic, but also pluralistic.

The PA is ridding the West Bank and Gaza of Jews?

Where they kill you even if they THINK you might be cooperating with Israel.

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This is obvious.

We called that the non-denial denial.

The massive armies of battle-hardened troops?
What gave it away?

So when Arafat asks for permission to go to Bethlehem for
Christmas, and is refused, it's all a clever act to mislead
people into thinking the PA is feeble?

Is this a non-answer answer?
You made an absolutely ridiculous claim that the PA is
cleansing the West Bank and Gaza of Jews, when the places
are littered with Jews-only settlements and the PA cannot
even wipe it's butt without Israeli permission. Whatever
cleansing might be going on, it is not being done by the PA.

If the PA had any control over the WB whatsoever (outside of the city centres, which are controlled to some extent by Hamas), it'd stop the World Zionist Organisation from selling 250 mobile homes to ultra-fanatics, for a start.¹

-----

1. Ma'ariv, 11 Nov 2003 (Hebrew). Cited in Foundation for Middle East Peace (Washington).

aside from the technical inconsistencies and inaccuracies, I, for one, would prefer to see a link in place of a footnote in an on line comment. I have no way of knowing what you are quoting here, and what was actually written in the Maariv Nov 11 article. True, I may have the article available, but searching through the notebooks is time consuming.

However, in is inconceivable that the PA can retroactively prevent something in the future. If they had total control over the so-called West Bank, rather than willing to have total control over Israelis in Israeli cities, they might have gotten a little more accomplished by now.

http://images.maariv.co.il/cache/ART583616.html

That's the article, and like I said: 250 new mobile homes for "Judea, Samaria and Gaza". i.e. "hilltop lunatics", to quote Ben Caspit from the same paper.

As you could have discovered, by checking the citation:

http://www.fmep.org/reports/2004/v14n2.html

"November 11: Ma'ariv reports the Settlement Department of the World Zionist Organization publishing a $6 million tender for the purchase of 250 mobile homes for settlements."

I trust this satisfies your inquiry. If you want the link to the "hilltop lunatics" quote, I can direct you to his recent op-ed.

The Maariv article mentions the tender for improved caravans as an advertised tender for supply, and that was back in November before the unilateral plan was produced by Sharon. If the improved caravans (larger size) are purchased (not made indicated in the article that they are) and if they are sent to replace existing caravans, that doesn't mean in itself settlement expansion. Caravans can easily be sent to another area. Settlements are being created for new immigrants and for settlers from Gaza in the Negev and the Galalee.

Not only is this a speculative move, the quote from the Foundation report does not indicate settlements in any specific area.

Thank you for the links. They are rather out-dated.

Not cleansing. It's done. Much like the rest of the Arab world. Even Palestinians who have something to do with Israel or people even THINK that they do are hunted down and killed.

I am NOT talking about areas under IDF protection, I am talking about the PA areas.

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"I don't see any problem with living side by side ... the problem is between the leaders. Ordinary people can live in peace" - a Palestinian living in Silwan, East Jerusalem.

Note: This was said after Jewish fanatics (supported by the GOI) had been buying up land and homes and using settler/military threats against this exact area for many years (a policy which is going on right at this moment).

So, who is cleansing who again?

buying land and homes in certain areas of Jerusalem by Jews is forbidden, because they are, after all, Jews.

Which is, after all, their excuse. :eyes:

I do support the "Right of Return" which was guaranteed by UN resolution, and actually goes back to Balfour Document and the League of Nations.

for the Palestinians as well?

Throwing in this question about the Palestinians demand for return is opening discussion which should be addressed elsewhere.

No parameters for this are indicated at all, so I will not try to give you my opinion on this.

everything I needed to know. No right for Palestinians, every right for Israelis. Makes one wonder...

claim rights in your country?

- we lock them all in concrete ghettos behind razor wire.
- turn the water on maybe twice a week.
- shoot their children.
- deny them the vote.
- impose a curfew on them.
- poison their crops to provide an excuse for confiscating "unused" land.
- bulldoze their homes to make way for more of our colonies.
- blow up their businesses.




Yes, Jews are persecuted throughout the world. My Jewish heritage makes me a target.



</sarcasm>
ROFLMAO

:eyes:

where Jews are treated as badly as Palestinians are under Israel?

Or perhaps there aren't any?

Damn, where's that anti-semitism when you need it...

"Throwing in this question about the Palestinians demand for
return is opening discussion which should be addressed elsewhere."

:shrug:

"That pretty much tells me everything I needed to know. No rights
for Palestinians, ..."

obviously ...

As non-citizens they don't have the same rights as citizens.

Go figure.

they(Palestinians)don't have the any rights....

I believe non-citizens should have the same rights as citizens
of any nation (legal rights that is)
except voting ...

for public services no ...

Palestinians have sued in Israeli courts and, when possible, they even Palestinian terrorists have been arrested and tried.

As for what you believe, the world isn't like that. Non-citizens DON'T have the same rights as citizens. For instance, non-citizens don't have the right to enter or leave a state at will.

You mean like the PA does in the West Bank or Gaza, ridding itself of Jews? well they can't because there under the occupation thumb
although some radicals would like to ..

Or you mean like the Arab world did ridding itself of Jews in almost all parts of the Arab world? yes, so is it ok for Israel to do it
to Palestinians ?

got a question for you Muddle, How many Israeli Arab Settlers
are their ? I say none, am I wrong ? ergo Israel is a state
based on Religious discrimination. ( a Democracy NOT)

"cultural genocide", "politicide", or "ethnic cleansing"
is closer, genocide is over the top...
theres a very small minority of extremist jews
who would like to eliminate the Palestinians
but they aren't in control ...

not to Jim. You have made that correction everytime the word comes up.

Is that the same page you link to has the following headline:

"Hamas planned to smuggle explosives inside toys

Terrorist indicted for attempted smuggling using stuffed animals. Meanwhile, Fatah terrorist sentenced for plotting to murder Israeli ambassadors."

Oh yeah, I'm going to really mourn the death of the leader of Hamas.

ambulances
baby carriages
16 yo boys
15 yo boys
14 yo boys
13 yo boys
teenage young women

and now...stuffed toys.

poor Israelis right? Just killing those "terrorist" even if they happen to be Palestinian children and babies...

Actually, Israel captures would-be suicide bombers as often as possible.

On behalf of the likes of Livnat and her ilk.

Some logic:

It's not only legitimate to praise Israeli state policy outside of Israel, but it's a sacred duty.

Yet..

To criticise state policy is an outrageous crime and shows why there should be "limits" to freedom of expression.

A quick "lesson" for the education minister:

Either criticism and praise are both legitimate, or neither are. There is no middle ground, unless you're a hypocrite. Which she plainly is.

Tinnypriv! As always you :yourock:

Only Muddle is allowed in my fan club. ;-)

the MK Livnat was referring to this distortion that was published. There is room for honest criticism, but this is simply pandering to anti-Semites.

Didn't want to disappoint anyone. O8)

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and your "...ain't nuthin but..." is getting monotonous.:-)

but then again...oh nevermind... :eyes:

Jennifer Loewenstein
A Journey to Rafah

<Since 29 September 2000 the Israeli army has killed 275 people in Rafah, more than three dozen of them since October 2003. Seventy-six of the dead have been children. It has destroyed a total of 1,759 homes, 430 of them since October 2003 displacing a total of 12,643 residents, 2,894 since October 2003. Unemployment is nearing 70 percent in Rafah, with a poverty rate of 83.4 percent as of the end of the third quarter of 2003. Malnutrition affects a large number of Rafah's children as does Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. British MPs on a visit to Israel and the Occupied Territories have been quoted as saying, "Rates of malnutrition in Gaza and parts of the West Bank are as bad as anything one would find in sub-Saharan Africa." The Palestinian economy has all but collapsed. As in Rafah, overall unemployment rates are in the region of 60 to 70 percent.>

<Heavy tank and machine gun fire blast the nights wide open in Rafah. For six hours straight I listen to the continual pounding of bullets and tank shells outside my window. Now and then an unidentifiable explosion interrupts the shooting, a silent pause creeps over the skies, and the routine begins again. But the silence above me is not absolute: in the distance on the ground I can hear the non-stop rumble of machines at work; bulldozers devouring the edges of the town. >

but I agree with Professor Greenberg.

Heard on TV news that Israel's leader has said Arafat is now a marked man. He is now threatening to drop a bomb on Arafat. This from a leader of a democracy! Isn't this also terrorism?

Israel has invented bureaucratic jargon to camouflage its criminal acts: murder becomes targeted killing; occupation and repression are called peace process.

Just like innocent victims are "collateral damage."

For example, note this front page headline in the Hebrew press:

"Shabak (General Security Service) Chief: Better to liquidate Arafat" ¹

-----

1. Ma'ariv, 14 Sep 2003. One of endless examples.

between them and the people they're after, do you?

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By also killing!

When you kill terrorists, they have a tendency to NOT be able to commit further terrorist acts.

I didn't know that!:silly:

I certainly didn't. What would we do without you.:silly:

about the Palestinians and how opposed to terror they are purported to be.

Since that is not true (and the recent survey confirms this), that's one of the reasons why I am here.

you just support Israeli terror against them, that's all. No biggie...

Care to make any more.

Terror is deliberately attack civilians and I oppose it on both sides.

That's rich, coming from you. Israel's leader is threatening to assassinate Arafat. I have yet to hear you oppose this terrorism. You'd call it self-defense.

Arafat is and has always been a terrorist.

I don't think it would be wise to kill him, but I understand it.

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When you kill terrorists, they have a tendency to NOT be able to commit further terrorist acts.

Yes, and when you kill the Innocent bystanders leaving a house of worship, you create even more terrorists. So the war goes on, and Likud politicians grow fatter.

The majority of those killed and injured this morning were worshipers coming out of a mosque. Surely there can be no mistaking the obvious premeditated intent behind firing rockets from a combat helicopter into crowds of worshipers exiting a holy site in a densely-populated civilian neighborhood? This is nothing less than Israel's version of a bus bombing and the civilian casualties prove it.
more

Ariel Sharon:

"Our orders were to maximise the number of Arab casualties (and) blow up as many buildings as possible"

Referring to Qibya. Compared to Lidice in the Jewish-American press. i.e. The Nazis. That's worse than terrorism (lauded in the IDF official history).¹

-----

1. It "washed away the stain" of previous losses, according to the Tzanharim history. Interestingly, Moshe Sharret (FM at the time), used the same phrase, but in the opposite formulation: it was a "stain (that) would stick to Israel for many years". He underestimated the hypocrisy of "pro-Israel" supporters, it seems.

oft repeated. The footnote refers to what? Is that statement your own?

:shrug:

But if you want the exact references, fair enough. To take each citation one by one:

* 'It "washed away the stain" of previous losses, according to the Tzanharim history'

This is from Milhamot Ha'Tzanharim, by Uri Milstein. Specifically, the "Creation of Unit 101" section. Cited in Begin and Co. by Israel Shahak. The exact text is that the Qibya operation "washed away the stain of earlier losses suffered by the IDF in reprisal operations".

* 'Interestingly, Moshe Sharett (FM at the time), used the same phrase, but in the opposite formulation: it was a "stain (that) would stick to Israel for many years"

To quote Sharett from his diaries:

"(At the cabinet meeting afterwards) I condemned the Qibya affair that exposed us in front of the whole world as a gang of bloodsuckers, capable of mass massacres regardless, it seems, of whether their actions may lead to war. I warned that this stain will stick to us and will not be washed away for many years to come."

Cited in Rokach's study on the diaries of Sharett.

As for: "He underestimated the hypocrisy of 'pro-Israel' supporters, it seems", I don't think any comment is necessary, given the obvious and ridiculous evasions any time I bring this topic up.

By the way, given the current obsession with how Arafat supposedly says one thing in Arabic and another in English, you should be aware that right after the massacre at Qibya, Ben-Gurion denied IDF involvement, even though the entire cabinet (and him) knew exactly what had happened (in fact, they ordered the operation). Sharett stated that he was opposed to attempting to deceive the world, on the grounds that:

"No one in the world will believe such a story and we shall only expose ourselves as liars"

Like I said, Sharett needn't have worried about being exposed - this minor event in the bloodstained career of Sharon is down the memory hole, and he's a "man of peace".

For fun, you might try and find a terrorist act by the Palestinians that compares to this one. Get back to me on that.

is that the Qibya affair of 51 years ago has become your obsession. You have referred to it repeatedly, without even mentioning that it was in 1953 that you are discussing. That only came up when I noted is, and you replied that I was ignorant.

There are several terrorist acts that are as bad, such as the 1929 massacre in Hebron (67 Jews were killed), the 1974 massacre in Ma'alot for murder of 21 school children and 26 residents in all (all unarmed civilians on a school trip).

The daily bombings in Israel in 2002 saw 2 or 3 attacks each day, co-ordinated with one another. In each week scores of Israelis were killed. In March 2002 105 Israeli civilians were murdered, it was a significant month of attacks, and undoubtedly well planned with suicide bombers striking 2 or 3 times a week. One bus bombing alone killed 30 innocent people.

I'll stop mentioning it as soon as Sharon is gone from the political scene. Until then, his terrorist record is fair game. When Peres is back in the saddle, I'll talk about his terrorist record.

As for the terrorist acts that are as bad, only 1 you give remotely compares, and that is the Hebron massacre.

Note the wording - that was a massacre, not a terrorist act carried out by some organised group (as in Qibya), with official orders to kill people and the like (doesn't mean terror wasn't involved of course). That's why the events are referred to in the context of "the 1929 riots".

The accurate comparison is not between Hebron and Qibya, but say, Sabra and Shatila and Hebron. Or Qibya and Ma'alot (assuming it was as bad - while bad enough, it was not).

As for the daily bombings, those are acts (cumulative), not an act, so the analogy is irrelevant. Just as comparing the months of Jewish terrorist attacks during the mandate (70+ killed, 60+ killed in cumulative months) to Ma'alot would not be accurate.

Incidentially, as I've come to expect, you decided to ignore the history leading up to Ma'alot. Though I don't wish to dwell on this, I'll make a couple of points:

1. You forget to mention the paramilitary connections of the teenagers at Ma'alot. Surely relevant if you're going to say that the (innocent) victims were "civilians".

2. The terrorist attack at Ma'alot was in order to obtain hostages for release, not simply killing for the sake of killing, as in usual massacres.

3. The practice of capturing civilians and exchanging them for political and military gain or other hostages was instigated in the middle east by Israel, when it hijacked a Syrian civilian airliner and used the captives to obtain the release of IDF intelligence officers and soldiers, captured in Syria during an infiltration operation.

4. There was a rescue operation, which surely contributed to the deaths.

etc.

In order to pre-empt irrationality and hysterics, I'll state for you that I think the moral responsibilty for the deaths lies with the PLO terrorists themselves, despite (4). Of course, responsibility for the act itself is all theirs, and in no way mitigated by (3), despite everything above being simple fact.

:)

I keep wondering if some people in power just pretend they're stupid because they want to do what they want to do. Surely they can't be really stupid. Or maybe they're just basically nasty.

"He must be an "Uncle Jack". Woohoo! I said it. I said it!

:D











































:eyes: :puke: :puke:

:-)

Prof Greenberg has written a letter to Ma'ariv (in Hebrew) accusing them of distorting his article, and it seems that they are refusing to publish it (looking at their cotvim page, which runs to 7 April).

Also, on this same subject (vilifying left-wing activists), a Ma'ariv columist (Dror) is probably going to end up in court for comparing a prominent Israeli dove (Ran HaCohen) to holocaust deniers soon...that should be fun, especially considering HaCohen's relatives died at the hands of the Nazis.

I think the op-ed piece which provoked the hysterics by Dror is posted around here someplace ('Who Won World War II?').