Israel Says It Blew Up Hamas Leader's Car

Israel Says It Blew Up Hamas Leader's Car

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israel blew up Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi's car in Gaza City on Saturday, Israeli security sources said. Palestinian rescue sources said two people were killed and one was badly injured.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=3&u=/ap/20040417/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_explosion

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Keithyboy, a single missile that takes out it's target and his two bodyguards is NOT "genocide." Now, if Israel had sent a few more missiles into the crowd that gathered after, collecting body parts and waving them proudly, dipping hands and cloth into blood, you might have a better argument.

J.

it's hard to have "more" of it in the same place.
Another Alice in Wonderland moment.

"become toward the Palestinians just as evil as Hitler and the Germans were toward them"
Seriously? Where are the cattle cars full of Palestinians from many lands on their way to death camps? Where are the mass executions and arsons? Where is the evidence of a rapidly dwindling population? I'll let you know when someone comes along who is "just as evil as Hitler".

reporting 2 bodies guards dead and power outages in the city

He was taken to a hospital, condition unknown, but he was breathing.

I would have been better had Sharon been in the same car with Rantisi. Two terrorists for the price of one!

Other than language and religion, there is no difference between Israel's government and Hamas's leadership.

On edit:

CNN saying he died in hospital.

Hes dead

ARABS WILL SEEK REVENGE and America will be the receivers

Why is this bein allowed to continue?

I mean, no one was trying to kill 'em BEFORE this, right?

Speaking of Chimpy, what does he have to say about this? Surely it was discussed during Sharon's recent visit.

There has been a tremendous karmic shift in the Palestinian conflict. Two evil lives have been eradicated.

How is it that the most powerful nation in the world should now feel fearful? So much posturing means nothing. The world is a safer, more sane place, thanks to the elimination of the two Hamas leaders Yassin and Rantisi.

You nailed it.
Contrary to what the average ignorant 'murikkkan
wants to believe, the Muslim population blames
the US government for what Sharon is able to do
with impunity.
Our troops just got marked for yet more retaliation.
Thanks to George and his "Bring it on" Cabal.
BHN

:eyes:

I dont hate the Palestinians, I believe they have just as much right to fight for that land as the Israelis do.

The big difference that I see is that it doesnt seem like the Palestians are very concerned about actually trying to win thier war.

They seem to be more concerned with killing non-combatants than fighting for thier independence.

:( n/t

Just when I think the badness has hit a steady level, some crap like this goes down.

These pictures I'm seeing on CNN are beyond disturbing.

This death however has the potential to save many lives.

Shed no tears for this butcher.

the radical muslims will attack back...it's a cycle that never ends.

The radical Muslims will also use this as a reason for attack.

how unreasonable. Especially since our tax dollars went towards it.

What has followed since? Nothing but killings and more killings. Who is suffering because of these misguided actions by Sharon? Americans and Iraqis. I fail to see how this will save the life of anyone.

Surgical Strike Not a Retaliatory Action
21:14 Apr 17, '04 / 26 Nisan 5764


(IsraelNN.com) A government source released a statement that tonight’s surgical strike in Gaza targeting Hamas leader Rantisi was not a retaliatory action for today’s Gaza suicide bombing attack. The unnamed source quoted by Galei Tzahal Radio explained that this was a first opportunity to strike out at him and the government will continue targeting terrorist leaders who seek to kill innocent Israelis. The report added that whoever replaces Rantisi will be targeted for elimination as well.

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=60974

WTF....this is sooo fucking out of control.

against International law. I am confused, so many are broken.

It's not.

If they're at war, no, it's not. If they have a peace agreement (which they don't), then it is.

http://smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/02/1080544641272.html

April 2, 2004 - 1:31AM

A previously unknown group has claimed responsibility for the the gruesome killing of four US contractors in Fallujah, western Iraq.

It said the action was in revenge for Israel's assassination of Hamas leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin.

"This is a gift from the people of Fallujah to the people of Palestine and the family of Sheik Ahmed Yassin who was assassinated by the criminal Zionists," said in the statement from the "Brigades of Martyr Ahmed Yassin".

"We advise the US forces to withdraw from Iraq and we advise the families of the American soldiers and the contractors not to come to Iraq," said the statement obtained by AFP.

The statement, entitled "Fallujah, the graveyard of the Americans", claimed the group's fighters killed "members of the Central Intelligence Agency and the Zionist Mossad", referring to Israel's intelligence agency.

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As usual, the biased pro-Israel posters' arguments are not based on truth or logic.

Israel first for them, regardless of the truth of things. You would do better arguing with a wall - at least a wall doesn't insult your intelligence by spouting easily (and readily) disproved anti-Palestinian propaganda.

Fortunately, the vast majority of progressive people realize such propaganda is bullshit, and thus it enjoys less and less influence over time.

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Nice rhetorical flourish, though. We disagree (because you are wrong), but at least it's entertaining!

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"Pro-terrorist" - that's a good one. So all Palestinians are terrorists?

Nice. How is that any less bigoted than someone saying that all Jews are greedy?

It's not, but feel free to justify your bigotry anyway. I'm certainly not going to listen - you offer nothing to this debate - but knock yourself out, someone else may be amused by your floundering attempts.

Sweet Zhade. "I am unable to support my position with facts and logic, so I will instead call you a bigot and declare victory!" Wow. You sure showed me. Guess I'll go rethink my support for those evil israelis now.

But think on this. Since the palestinians are doing nothing to stop anti-Israeli terrorism isn't it fair to say that they do in fact all support it?

That according to surveys a majority of Palestinians do indeed support terrorist acts against Israel.

you support the most oppressive illegal apartheid system on the face of the earth.

As you are likely doing nothing (and to be fair, what COULD you do to stop it?), do you therefore support that terrorism?

Again, if you prefer to engage in fallacious arguments and not just bent but totally broken logic, feel free. Just don't expect a response, because I don't need to waste my time on you.

Oh, and feel free to say I'm "running away" if it makes you feel better. It's not true, but then, does truth matter to you?

I'd appreciate it. I'm not aware of any.

,...and I am always appalled to witness it on this discussion board.

Yet when it comes to the I/P conflict, that truth often gets lost amid AIPAC money and pro-Israel bias.

Not that bias of any kind is good, but let's face it, history is written by the winners, and so far the Israeli government has won in its fight against the oppressed people whose land it continues to steal.

Both sides are culpable in this conflict, but one side has the power and the other does not. The side with the power needs to make a sincere effort towards peace. Instead, it persists in assassinations, just further inflaming the other side and leading to more violence. Makes no sense to me. And makes me incredibly sad, since I had hopes for the "road map." Silly me. I forgot that we needed a president dedicated to peace in this region, as Clinton was.

Does Hamas simply disappear when its leader is summarily executed?

..we captured Saddam and killed his sons. Put an end to the resistance there didn't it?

;-)

Resistance works even when the leaders are killed.

After all, did the civil rights movement die with MLK? Thankfully, no.

That is what I thought the post meant.

Did I misinterpret?

I do believe that there is puhlenty of evidence that the demise of Saddam & Sons failed to suppress a resistence against US occupation.

There might have been a break in communication here - I agreed with the poster that the resistance in Iraq did not end with Saddam's capture by the Kurds.

With all the emotions flying, it's often difficult to keep track.

:)

If you do it enough, that is.

soldiers.......I hope the POW will come out of this okay.........but bush must think this is okay.because sharon is his friend.

Another MLK, another Gandhi. Bush should know, right?

"The president believes that Ariel Sharon is a man of peace"
Ari Fleischer, April 12, 2002

...then I'm an extraterrestrial transsexual Eskimo.

:eyes:

Here's a hint: men of peace don't wage war, they don't assassinate people, and they don't steal land.

``stealing land`` business....

stealing??

that by withdrawing from Gaza they are giving away a great swath of land including multiple luxurious homes and agricultural rich lands...

How to really get things moving in the middle east.

Just like it did when they assassinated Yassin? Or will this be a ``setback`` for the ``peace process`` ?

,...not!!! More like perturbing greater anger and violence.

Let's see... on the Roadmap To Peace, Israel took several steps it had committed to, the Palestinians took none. When Israel announced that the Roadmap seemed doomed to failure, out came the Geneva Accords. Israel released prisoners, suicide bombings increased.

Looks like Israel said "screw this" and started hitting BACK. Yassin got blowed up real good and Israel said "hey, Gaza, we're outta this toilet." Palestinian reaction? Lotsa seething, no real action.

One month later: several dozen thwarted suicide bombings (including one with a teenage boy), and one gets through. Same day: Rantisi gets blowed up real good.

(Aside: note the number of "others" who were NOT killed or injured when Yassin and Rantisi achieved their long-desired martyrdom. Israel knows how to kill, and how NOT to kill.)

Palestinian reaction: more seething, lots of waving of body parts.

I predict quite a few more thwarted suicide bombings, and a bit of a wait before Hamas gets another publicly announced leader. As several others have commented, you'd probably be safer being Spinal Tap's drummer than Hamas' leader.

J.

So, you obviously love sharon, huh. And, you support this path of selective assassination, too, huh.

That's your prerogative.

Personally, I think sharon is a brutal and imbalanced *sshole in addition to being crooked.

Love Sharon? No, not really. I'm focused more on the issues than the individuals.

Support selective assassination? Again, not really. But I prefer it to either non-selective assassination (read: suicide bombings and other indiscriminate acts of terrorism) or doing nothing in response to non-selective assassination.

Rantisi was the head of Hamas, which has repeatedly sworn the absolute destruction of the state of Israel and intends to drive every single Israel "into the sea." As such, he's a legitimate target for arrest or killing.

Here are some excerpts from the Hamas charter. Read them, Just Me, and see if you can see any hope of peaceful negotiation with an organization that has these as it's core principles, has restated them repeatedly, and considers every single Israeli -- man, woman, child -- a "legitimate target.

J.

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)." Preamble.

"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. " Article 13.

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." Article 13.

"Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror." Article 31

"The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying." Article 32

Full Text:
http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html

,...by foreign forces. :) You are a devotee to "occupation", right? Well, that is, unless it is your country being occupied, of course. :)

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Actually, you were the one who stated that you look at issues rather than individuals. I consider sharon an abolute mess for a leader and a man who has obviously proven himself worthy of an investigation for corruption. Hence, I seriously doubt the man gives a damn about "laws" and he certainly has ignored (along with his best pal, Bush) all admonitions by the international community.

You obviously view the world through your own microphone,...which is totally your freedom to so do. I am also free to hold my perspective and have absolutely no obligation whatsoever to justify my view to you or anybody else. If the administration can do whatever the hell they want without regard to ethics or laws and can manipulate the masses towards their self-serving agenda, I certainly have the right to hold my opposing views since they don't cost a dime and haven't left one drop of blood on my hands.

Just Me:

Sharon on his position (and actions) against the leaders of Hamas: dead right.

Sharon on other issues, as far as this topic is concerned: utterly irrelevant.

As far as your second paragraph... Harlan once stated that "everyone is entitled to an INFORMED opinion." Let me take this opportunity to head off some potential future disagreements with your opinions: the moon is NOT made of green cheese, the earth is NOT flat, and stoves can get hot. I'm not saying you have opinions to the contrary, but it certainly seems consistent with some of your other opinions.

J.

and a criminal is a saint. Am I getting it ALL right, now? By the way, you don't KNOW me or my thoughts or opinions or heart well enough nor have you earned sufficient authority to come on here and obviously seek to demean me or my perspectives. I am sure you think that you are all that,...but, to me, you are just another cyber-poster looking for a fight,...just like any other bullying troll that surfs here and there.

I presumed you'd have the courage of your convictions, and the facts to back up your opinions. You certainly have the right to espouse your opinions, and I would fight to defend that right if they were threatened, but "freedom of speech" does not mean "freedom from disagreement and criticism," and my exercising my right to speak is in no way infringing upon yours.

NOBODY has the right to speak without fear of contradiction -- that's tyranny. Alan Dershowitz has stated that the best remedy to "bad speech" is "more speech," not repression.

The best definition I've ever seen of "freedom" was "the right to be held responsible for one's actions." Anyone care to disagree with that?

J.

Having worked with victims of domestic abuse,...I definitely see right through you.

I thought it "sarcasm." Just Me, do we have some kind of domestic relationship that I'm unaware of? If so, I've been missing out on certain conjugal benefits...

On second thought, I'll not go there.

I'll just repeat your own words to you. "you are just another cyber-poster looking for a fight,...just like any other bullying troll that surfs here and there. "

"Bully" and "troll" are insulting terms, and insults are apparently abuse in your dictionary. I shrugged them off, though. Perhaps I was presumptuous in thinking you would do the same. Maybe I should've gone into the full "you can't call me that! You don't know me and have no right to judge me!" rant, but I find that an intellectually dishonest and immature response.

J.

Whatever *smile*.

:bounce:

Here's a clue: it wasn't the Palestinians.

;)

I'd presumed it was whoever had losted Hamas.

Zhade, everything I've seen referred to Yassin and Rantisi as the co-founders of Hamas. I presume you claim to have other information?

J.

You might try The Center for Strategic Studies and a story written by UPI correspondent Richard Sales.

There are many unfortunate parallels between the US/Hussein and Israel/Hamas relationships.

Okay, I will admit, that one made me grin. :D

I'll give you another hint (and a suggestion: Google is a wonderful tool) - you could ask Yitzhak Rabin about it, if a right-wing Israeli hadn't assassinated him.

(damn, those petards are tricky.)

http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r

(Analysis: Hamas history tied to Israel

By Richard Sale
UPI Terrorism Correspondent
Published 6/18/2002 8:13 PM

In the wake of a suicide bomb attack Tuesday on a crowded Jerusalem city bus that killed 19 people and wounded at least 70 more, the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, took credit for the blast.

snip

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon immediately vowed to fight "Palestinian terror" and summoned his cabinet to decide on a military response to the organization that Sharon had once described as "the deadliest terrorist group that we have ever had to face."

snip

"But Sharon left something out.

Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years."

snip

Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative," said a former senior CIA official."

interesting indeed :(

Amazing how easily some Israel-firsters ignore this salient little fact.

Ah well, ignorance helps with denial, and vice versa.

Good find, thanks for sharing it with us. :)

That would be the story by Richard Sale I'd seen before.

,...go figure. Sounds so familiar. Same shit, different day. But, hey, let us never ever hold the leaderships responsible.

Ariel Sharon has nerve calling anyone a terrorist. This man should have been tried for war crimes years ago!

http://www.counterpunch.org/sharon.html
http://www.socialistworker.org/2002-1/402/402_08_SharonIsTerrorist.shtml

Let's call this what it is: HYPOCRISY.

I once worked next door to a pet store, JustMe. When I got bored or stressed, I'd go and "borrow" a rabbit for a little bit. (With the store's knowledge and permission, of course. It was good for the rabbit, and good advertising for them.) Petting a rabbit is remarkably soothing.

Might I suggest you try it some time?

J.

,...I have two loving dogs, a cat and a gerbil. They pet me *LOL!!!

Let's see... on the Roadmap To Peace, Israel took several steps it had committed to, the Palestinians took none.

Wrong. Israel postponed its troop withdrawals. Prior to that, there were virtually no suicide bombings. The deadline for the Palestinians to have a state under the Oslo Accords came and went -- that gave rise to the Intifada, then that Fatso took a walk down to the holy sites to get elected.

Looks like Israel said "screw this" and started hitting BACK. Yassin got blowed up real good and Israel said "hey, Gaza, we're outta this toilet." Palestinian reaction? Lotsa seething, no real action.

Sounds way too callous. People dying is not something really to joke about. But maybe that is just me (or some of us).

One month later: several dozen thwarted suicide bombings (including one with a teenage boy), and one gets through. Same day: Rantisi gets blowed up real good.

Are you seeing a connection between the assassinations and the suicide bombings yet? Do stick around. You might learn something.

I predict quite a few more thwarted suicide bombings, and a bit of a wait before Hamas gets another publicly announced leader.

Nice thing going, this cycle of violence. Do you think so?

Can be broken...no more pizza or disco massacres and its gone.

You think the illegal land grab is going to stop if the suicide bombings stop? Please. You must be smarter than that.

Take a look at the nonviolent resistance to the land-stealing wall - Palestinians are NOT bombing anyone there, and yet the work continues, stealing more land on the Palestinian side of the Green Line and sealing the villages into separate little bantustans, their water and croplands destroyed or confiscated.

Let me say it again, for anyone who is too slow to understand it the first time: those nonviolent protests are not stopping the theft of land. And you honestly think such theft won't continue, even if Hamas and the rest of the militants lay down their arms?

Zhade, nearly all that land was either 1) BOUGHT by Jews after the establishment of Israel, or 2) ABANDONED just before the first Arab-Israeli War.

Short version of history: Israel is founded. Arab seething begins. Arab nations announce they will "obliterate" Israel, urge all Arabs and Muslims to clear out of their way, with the understanding that they'll get their land back after all the Jews have been driven into the sea. About 850,000 Arabs and Muslims get the hell outta Dodge, just in time to miss the utter defeat of their champions.

Obscure trivia: 850,000 "Palestinians" fled Israel after it's founding. Care to guess the number of Jews who left/were driven out of surrounding Arab/Muslim nations and went to Israel? About 850,000. Yet I don't hear too much rumbling about their "right to return" or "compensation" for the homes and property they had to leave behind...

J.

This is not nearly the entire story, and I'm fairly sure you know that.

Zhade, I KNOW that's not the entire story. Hence my use of the term "short version." I didn't have the time/space to go back to the creation of the earth in 4004 BC, let alone the Big Bang some 20 billion years ago. But I think I hit the salient points.

J.

Keep trying. I know you can find the truth if you avoid the pro-Israel bias.

You might try some of the renowned Israeli scholars who disagree with your version, for starters.

Wasn't the term invented to describe the re-writing of history (removal of significant facts, inserting of falsehoods) by the Soviets?

Simply calling the facts I've cited "revisionist" does NOTHING. I would've accepted "selective," because we all have to select the facts that we consider germane, but "revisionist" smacks to me of intellectual laziness. "I don't like what you have to say, so I'll call it a fancy word for lying and ignore it."

J.

,...use that "history revisionism" language ALL THE TIME!!!! They suddenly are worse than the "commies" they supposedly were obsessed with,...being the propagandists of "re-writing history".

Ohhhh,...my stomach hurts from laughter.

",...use that "history revisionism" language ALL THE TIME!!!! They suddenly are worse than the "commies" they supposedly were obsessed with,...being the propagandists of "re-writing history".

Ohhhh,...my stomach hurts from laughter."

(looking for something of substance to respond to...)

(still looking...)

(gee, it's foggy around here...)

Oh, well.

J.

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"I'm lying?" That's the extent of your response? An ad hominem attack?

I acknowledge "selective" because there simply isn't room for every fact -- I chose the ones that seemed most germane to the issue at hand. If you have something that contradicts what I have said, I'll listen. If you're just gonna spout off ad hominem attacks, though, I think I can safely presume that you don't have any response of substance.

I won't bother responding to attacks with attacks. Resorting to such lofty discourse as "nanny nanny boo boo, stick your head in doo-doo" and "you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny" both denigrates the participants and detracts from the discussion of real substance.

J.

You specifically asked for honesty.

Also, I never said you dressed funny. ;-)

``you must be smarter than that``.?

What are you implying.Nobody has ever accused me , ever of not being smart.(before now)

,...you only see through the lens of narrow view,...which is an auto-indication of biggotry or way, way too PRO-anything that has historically resulted in the worst human atrocities. Go read some materials about Goebbels and Hitler.

Ah... when the facts conspire against you, attack the person. How profound, how convincing.

J.

Would the "facts" convince you to take a more even-handed position?

No. I think not.

You have made up your mind. Incorporating "understanding" and considering all the facts would make absolutely no difference to your position, whatsoever.

All I can ask is this,...is your position working to build peace? If so, prove it.

Hamas has no interest in "Peace" -- unless, of course, you mean the peace of the grave. Their stated GOAL is the extermination of the state of Israel and every one of it's citizens. Their actions have repeatedly reinforced this point.

Rantisi, a bad man, is dead. The organization that he headed is now too busy 1)ducking for cover and 2) trying to find a new leader to organize more murders.

And, with luck, those "moderate Muslims" and "peace-loving Palestinians" will gain courage from the death of this terrorist and stand up for their principles and we might actually see them confront the cult of death that has dominated their culture and the world's perception of them for far too long.

J.

TheStranger, here's an analogy for you. Suppose one person walks up to another and starts hitting them and kicking them. If that person starts hitting back, aren't they "perpetuating the cycle of violence?"

Israel withdrew from several settlements and released many, many prisoners -- all as spelled out in the "Roadmap." The Palestine Authority promised to crack down on militants and fight terrorism. When they were pressed to keep their word, they said they didn't dare crack down on militants "for fear of triggering a civil war." To the best of my knowledge, the PA didn't take a single action in compliance with the Road Map -- could you correct me if I'm wrong?

Also, several of the suicide bombers (and wannabes) of the last few months were Palestinian Authority officials and employees -- even at least one policeman. Everyone urged Israel to show "patience" and "restraint," two concepts that always seem to get measured in dead Israelis. I realize that's a pretty cheap price to a lot of people, but not to me (Methodist turned agnostic, before you ask), and not to Israel.

Rantisi ordered, endorsed, funded, and arranged suicide bomber attacks against such military, strategic targets as buses, pizza parlors, and Passover celebrations. When Israel killed him, they killed him and his two bodyguards (who, not to sound too callous, must consider such things as "occupational hazards"). No one else.

Also, according to the Geneva Convention, combatants MUST keep themselves separate from civilians to avoid endangering them. If any civilians are around them and are killed or injured, it is the responsibility of those combatants, not their attackers. Whether or not Israel and the PA are signatories to the Geneva Convention, it is a valid principle.

There's an old saying that defines "insanity" as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting something different." Israel has done the negotiating and restraint thing for years, and gotten absolutely nowhere. The Palestinians showed absolutely no interest in restraining or removing it's most militant and determined factions. Now Israel is doing the cleaning-up for them. Maybe if enough "Death To Israel!"-screaming sociopaths get sent to their much-desired martyrdom, some reasonable Palestinians will rise up and sieze their own destiny away from the Cult Of Death.

J.

Full transcript, with the Junior Bush's thoughts added back and in red:

SMIRKY W. McWARHARDON: I'm pleased to welcome Prime Minister Sharon back to the White House. Having another bloodthirsty fascist in my company gives me, y'know, the biggest woody y'kin imagine. For more than 50 years, Israel has been a vital ally and a true friend of America. 'Specially now that they've adaptified Dickie Perle's policy of preemptification. I've been proud to call the Prime Minister my friend. And if I were a homosexual, I'd change mah name to Ben Dover jus' for him, but Pat Robertson tells me that the Bible says being a bootie bandit'll send me ta hell. But killin's OK, especially if I get to make fun of my victim the way I did Karla Faye Tucker. I really appreciate our discussions today. Especially those pointers on torturin' the brown people. Sounds like fun. Damn, I'm gittin' another chubby. I jus' love usin' that word, "'preciate." Karl Rove told me to. Makes me sound like a Methodist Minister. He says it'll brainwash my "base." The policy of the United States is to help bring peace to the Middle East and to hope -- bring hope to the people of that region. Through a policy of death, blockade, sanctions and bigotry. Thank ya, Jayzis. Thank ya, Lord.

ON EDIT: tag fix

That traitor b*sh has emboldened his fellow fascist war criminal Sharon, and the blood of innocents on both sides will be the price paid.

The Israelis need to get Sharon the hell out of office before he gets them all killed. They deserve a true leader, not this pusher of violence and death.

**Actual number may be higher.

Man of peace my ass. This man defines the word "terrorist".

http://www.counterpunch.org/sharon.html
http://www.socialistworker.org/2002-1/402/402_08_SharonIsTerrorist.shtml

...a few last licks against various Palestinians on his hit list before the Israeli AG returns an indictment against him for fraud and he's forced to step down and relinquish the right to assassinate whom he pleases. Who are we to criticize this fine man? Let him have his fun before he's hauled off to the gaol to rot.

:hi:

Welcome to DU.

Maybe while sharon is charged, tried, convicted and jailed,...we can do the same right here in the USA!!!!

:bounce:

...looking forward to the day when both Israel and the US can rid themselves of Sharon and Bush and both nations can get themselves some intelligent progressive leadership. :)

That would be a start.

After the incendiary remarks by Rantisi, the response seems to be logical and expected.

Just so we're clear, you support the idea of murdering someone merely for what they say?

If not that, then please clarify, because your words give the impression that you do agree with my analysis.

Rantisi was a Hamas leader. May they all meet a similar fate until they lay down their arms.

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Silly me. I thought private discussions might be discussed IN PRIVATE, and discussions ON A PUBLIC FORUM would be open for all to participate. Gosh darn me for misunderstanding...

J.

Zhade, killing someone for what they SAY is not justified.

If Rantisi had limited himself to speaking, he'd be considerably more watertight today. But he ADVOCATED violence, SPONSORED violence, PLANNED violence, REWARDED violence, and ARRANGED violence.

Hitler never directly killed anyone. Does that make him OK?

(Oh, damn, I just Godwinned myself. Lemme think around that... how about "Ted Kennedy's directly killed more people than George W. Bush. Does that make Bush better than Kennedy?")

Thank you. As I said to Muddled, I'd prefer the poster answer himself (or herself), but I do appreciate your understanding this.

Oh, damn, I just Godwinned myself.

I confess to not understanding this sentence, however.

At any rate, my issue was not with the man's actions, but with the appearance that the poster accepted that killing someone merely for what they said was okay. I could be (and hopefully am) wrong in my interpretation about this, which is why I asked for clarification.

I'm not defending Hamas. As you'll see elsewhere on this thread, I believe the targeting of civilians that occurs on both sides is wrong and unjustifiable. Apparently that makes me "pro-terrorist" to some, but then I never bother myself with the interpretations of those who cannot fathom the complexities of a viewpoint that can discourage terrorism yet understand and sympathize with legitimate resistance.

From The Jargon Dictionary, at http://info.astrian.net/jargon/:

Godwin's Law prov. "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

It's only a provisional "social law," but DAMN, it seems to be amazingly accurate.

I don't think it's a perfect law - after all, the U.S. and the IDF have used collective punishment, which is a Nazi-esque tactic - but there are some limits to the usefulness of the Nazi analogy, I suppose.

Hmm... Zhade, you just gave me an insight. Could suicide bombings be considered "collective punishment?" After all, there is no direct connection between those killed and the actions they are supposedly being killed for...

That's actually mostly serious. I had literally never thought of suicide bombings (and other terrorist bombings) in that context, but it does seem to fit...

J.

Also, I believe the concept of "collective punishment" predates the Nazis by a considerable time. Consider the origin of the word "decimate."

J.

If you're the leader of a terrorist organization, and you're exhorting people to commit violence, then yes, I believe that those against whom the violence is directed have every right to take whatever action they deem necessary to protect themselves. That includes killing your vile ass.

Are you threatening little ol' ME?

Or are you in fact the leader of a terrorist organization? See, by saying 'If you are the leader of a terrorist organization...' I was placing the comment in the context of what's called a hypothetical statement. The 'you' was actually intended as an impersonal pronoun that referred to the hypothetical terrorist leader I was conjecturing. I see now that that could be confusing to some people, especially if they actually did head up a terrorist group. So, just to be crystal clear Zhade, no, I am not threatening little ol' you. You of course in this context actually referring to you as an individual. Got it?

The fact that their leadership is targeted is not surprising. They openly admit and perform murder against civilians. As a military organization, their leaders and their troops are subject to attack and casualty.

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews."

From his hospital bed on June 10, 2003. Rantisi suffered light shrapnel wounds following an Israeli missile strike on his car in Gaza City.

On Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon: "A liar, terrorist, Nazi, with G-d's help Hamas will strike all of Israel a blow and will kill both Sharon the cur and his friend Peres."

About Suicide Bombers: "I congratulate them. They will teach the Jewish mothers in Haifa, Tel Aviv and everywhere that our blood is not cheap.

On the borders of Palestine: "There is no difference between Akko, Haifa, Gaza, Jaffa or Nablus. The Palestinian Intifada will continue until the last Zionist is banished."

On the Road Map peace proposal: "This is a Zionist conspiracy against the Palestinian people. Our armed resistance will not stop. On the contrary, Hamas will reach deep into the cities of Israel."

About terrorism: "This is the answer to the Zionist terrorism, in the future we will multiply the suicide bombing attacks and we will carry out operations that will shock the Jews."

On the explosion of Space Shuttle Columbia: "... The explosion of the shuttle Columbia is, it is reasonable to assume, part of the divine punishment of America and, together with it, Zionism - because of their massacres of Muslims, the destruction of their lives, the humiliation of their honor, and their desire to globalize corruption..." - Hamas Web site, 2/2/03.

http://www.adl.org//israel/rantisi_words.asp

Good bye abdel.

Do you really believe that Arabs are less than human and should not have the privilege of outrage over the deaths of their men, women, and children, the taking of their land, the bulldozing of thier homes, the cut off of a means to provide for their families?

And should be exterminated at every opportunity.

say we should have gone to war was because of the many U.N. resolutions that were broken by Iraq.

Isn't it also true that Israel has also broken many U.N. resolutions?

Iraq broke resolutions that we supported, Israel broke ones that we didnt.

The only UN resolutions that are binding are Security Council resolutions. And Israel hasn't violated a single one. If you can find evidence that this is untrue please post.

UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992
1. Resolution 106: "... 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation""
13. Resolution 259: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN  resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "....'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'
31. Resolution 444: "...'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians" 39. Resolution 471: "... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "... 'reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'"
41. Resolution 478: "...'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
42. Resolution 484: "...'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: "...'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops" 55. Resolution 605: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: "...'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: "...'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: "...'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: "...'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
62. Resolution 681: "...'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: "...'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return. 
 


The following are the resolutions vetoed by the United States during the period of September, 1972, to May, 1990 to protect Israel from council criticism:
1. ....condemned Israel's attack against Southern against southern Lebanon and Syria..."
2. ....affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and equal protections..."
3. ...condemned Israel's air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians..."
4. ....called for self-determination of Palestinian people..."
5. ....deplored Israel's altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an international city by most world nations and the United Nations..."
6. ....affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people..."
7. ....endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people..."
8. ....demanded Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights..."
9. ....condemned Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations..."
10. ....condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem worshippers at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem..."
11. ....urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon..."
12. ....urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Beirut..."
14. ....urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon..."
15. ....condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace..."
16. ....deplores Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urges its withdrawal..."
17. ....condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli 'Iron Fist' policy of repression...."
18. ....denounced Israel's violation of human rights in the occupied territories..."
19. ....deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon..."
20. ....deplored Israel's activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy sites..."
21. ....condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan passenger airplane..."
22. ....deplored Israel's attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon..."
23. ....called on Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian intifada that violated the rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations..."
24. ....urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians, condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN auspices..."
25. ....condemned Israel's... incursion into Lebanon..."
26. ....deplored Israel's... commando raids on Lebanon..."
27. ....deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian intifada and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians..."
28. ....deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians..."
29. ....demanded that Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian intifada..."
30. ...called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands..."-


 

 Source: Paul Findley, Deliberate Deceptions: Facing the Facts About the US/Israeli Relationship  (Chicago: Lawrence Hill, 1993). 

These are almost all General Assembly resolutions, which are non-binding and thus not liable to being violated. The only SC resolution that I see in the list is 446, which deplores and calls upon but does not demand anything. And what's with the list of vetoed resolutions? How could Israel possibly violate a resolution that was vetoed? You'd have had better luck with SC resolution 242, but then the Arab states have never honored it so Israel is certainly under no obligation to do so unilaterally.

Israel is violating a UN Security Council resolution right now - demanding "the expeditious withdrawal of the Israeli occupying forces from Palestinian cities".

That's 1435. And one of many.

I suspect you are confusing yourself because you don't actually understand the truly sophisticated Israeli propaganda that you're attempting to recite (shoddily).

If you would like the UN/SC Chpt6/7 intricacies explained to you, just ask.

Operations around Ramallah have long since ceased. And once the wall is complete the Israelis will be able to fully comply. When are the pallys going to comply with the UN demand for 'the complete cessation of all acts of violence, including all acts of terror, provocation, incitement and destruction'? or to heed 'calls on the Palestinian Authority to meet its expressed commitment to ensure that those responsible for terrorist acts are brought to justice'?

And yes tinnypriv, please explain to me the intricacies of Chapters 6 and 7 of the the United Nations Charter vis-a-vis the Security Council and its role in maintaining international security and the pacific settlement of disputes between nation states. It should prove quite entertaining.

I'll refrain from seriously addressing your comment about how "operations around Ramallah have long since ceased", because that is irrelevant (even if it was true - which it isn't - it has no bearing on the demand to withdraw from all Palestinian cities). With that noted, I'll provide the explanation.

The UN SC resolutions passed against countries other than US-clients (say, Iraq) are under Chapter 7 of the UN charter. That means that they are enforceable via economic and military means.

The resolutions passed against Israel are passed under Chapter 6 of the UN charter. Hence, they are not enforceable via economic and military means.

That is the point you were attempting to make, and it is one well understood as highly useful in defending the Holy State by the truly sophisticated propagandists, who have the argument honed down to a fine art.

If you're interested in joining that club, you may want to consult some real-world examples. Say (to pick at random), the 2003 op-ed in The Guardian by the editor of The Economist. He employs the line above, and (in effect) argues that Iraq is deserving of "enforcement", while Israel should be free from censure.

For full disclosure, I should point out his op-ed was demolished within 20 minutes of publication - I know, because I did it (essentially conceded by the author privately - you don't have to take my word for it). Still, that is of no consequence - facts are a heresy in this kind of culture, passionately dedicated to lying as a matter of course.

You're not there yet, but a bit of work on google and some friendly pointers will go a long way. Stick around.

When the world gangs up on a minority people it is their duty to ignore the world.The USA is doing its duty to protect us from the anti-zionists just as I expect protection from the anti semites.

I live in canada and I say THANK G-D FOR THE USA...

:yourock:

gg

charred and mutilated contractors in Iraq.

Congratulations, Chimpy. You've gotten us firmly entrenched in what could blossom into another world war.

My uninformed opinions

1. Israeli mole in Hamas security.
2. Signal intel told Israel where he was.
3. Hamas dissention lead someone (competing leader) to rat him out.
4. PA ratted him out.

I lean toward 3 and 4, just because the power change has happened so soon.

I think you are right on about 3 or 4.

members in this particular thread. I wonder why.

I mean, anyone with a sub-1000 post count and who disagrees with you is a freeper, right?

All terrorists need to be arrested or killed. Period.

World War III is going to erupt here! Bush* needs to weigh in on this, and with considerable force, but he has effectively abandoned the "road map," the only hope that these people have. We need new leadership, on all fronts.

I don't think so.
They are protecting themselves in a conflict with mutually exclusive desires.

and their actions will just result in more anger and deaths, not solving anything, and, certainly, not promoting peace.

"positions of the pro-terrorist/palestinian posters."

:hi: have a nice day eh'...;)

thot i was just pro Palestinian

glad thats cleared up <sarcasm> :eyes:

You play with fire, eventually you get burned. Who will be the next brave Hamas leader? Hopefully Israel will help him attain martyrdom as well.