Someone please explain to me why some DUers have an undying...

support for Israel.

Everytime I post something about a politician who is Pro-Israel or, about Israel I get comments on how we should be supporting Israel as it is the only "real democracy" in the middle-east. Which first off is a GIANT LOAD OF BULLSHIT!

No one can deny the Israeli governments hatred for the palestinians. Not seeing that is being almost as blind as not seeing *'s lack of concern for anyone not white and in a three piece suit.

As I have said before, they indiscriminantly kill INNOCENT Palestinians. Now, granted the Palestinian terrorists indiscriminantly kill innocent civilians in Israel too, but I expect that from terrorists. Israel as a democracy is nonexistent. Israel is a democracy has all the makings of Bush and Co. after having been in power for 50 years. Another claim no one can dispute.

And I don't want to start a war but denying that Israel is doing to the palestinians exactly what shrub and his minions would like to do to us, and by "us" again I mean not rich people, is blinding yourself from the truth.

Again I'm not trying to flame but, if anyone has comments they would like to share please help confirm my opinion or show me how I am incorrect.

Zak

the McKinney treatment,
that's the way it is, unfortunately.

Most Palestinians don't think Israel has a right to exist. They want to push every Jew into the sea...in short...to kill all of the Israelis. Most Israelis do NOT want to kill 100% of the Palestinians...though if they wanted to, they could accomplish this overnight. You can bet your ass if Arafat had the bomb, he would have nuked Israel by now. Israel will never do this to the Palestinians...They will simply build their wall and deal with the terror attacks as they come.

Only a few Palestinians want to "push every Jew into the sea". Most Palestinians just want to work and feed their families.

Maybe you should actually TALK to some of the Palestinians before you ASSume what they think or want.

maybe if you had any respect for the truth you would
be taken seriously

Who support Israel no matter what. It think that is a shame as it shows no critical thinking. But I would say a vast majority here don't. The moderators also get sensitive about this topic as I have had a few of my posts deleted, and I never had a post deleted on any other topic..

Only time I've eve had a comment deleted was during an argument about Israel. That was like 6 months ago...

You never hear exposes on how much foregin aid goes to Israel. How politicians on both sides are bought by lobbies like AIPAC and the fundamentalists. If this country stopped giving foregin aid to Israel, I think it would solve soo many problems...

:D

Seriously, I'm in two minds about Israel. I've studied its history to an extent but still find myself reeling from the complexities involved and would have to admit that I know little of the current issues or their ramifications.

The creation of Israel was a real David-vs-Goliath struggle, and I admire their tenacity during the 1967 and 1973 wars -- as well as the efficacy of their special forces and the Mossad (bad dudes though they may be) -- but they're also their own worst enemy in many ways and have acted disturbingly worthy of the Nazi swastika at times, in terms of interaction with non-Jewish populations. Very disturbing.

And it can be further disturbing that US policy offers what seems blanket support for Israel. Israel's confusing, and it really doesn't help that talking about the issues tends to end in a blizzard of knee-jerk name calling: you're a facist Zionist running-dog antisemite if you agree with Israel's actions and you're a facist Nazi running-dog antisemite if you disagree with their actions. Weird, the number of Jewish liberals I know who're hard-core right-wingers when it comes to anything that might affect the welfare of Israel. I guess that's one reason why Lieberman is such a rightie.

of our foreign policy toward Israel continues to be censored and taken off the table, there will be a backlash of anger and resentment toward Israel.

The Jewish community needs to broach this subject in a public way and become more willing to discuss unpopular alternatives and not so willing to play the anti-semitic card. By not dealing with it, it will fester and become a national boil that is ripe for bursting.

You completely forgot the defense lobby and Christian fundamentalists who are in complete support of Israel. You you analyzed about 1/3 of the problem...

but it is in the nuance of foreign policy and what form the relationship should take, and what role THIS country should play in the Middle East, that is under contention.

At any rate, I think there just needs to be a good discussion about the current policy and ALL the options.

Yes I know what you mean, and this is beyond DU, and beyond left or right wing.
But to be fair, I'll say that in my (limited) experience, the Israelis I have met have often been more rational and concerned for peace and equality for Palestinians, than many or most American Jews are. An old joke over there goes something like: "A Zionist is an American who will fight to the last Israeli".
There are a hell of a lot of idealistic, or even simply practical, Israelis who want the violence and injustice to stop. Of course, they have to live with it, live with all the dangers and madness, or else change it sensibly. It's easier for Americans - on the left and right equally - to be belligerent about Israel from a distance.
And of course this gives the lie to the "anti-Zionism equals anti-semitism" chestnut, because after all the Jews are a very, very diverse people worldwide. Judaism does not equal Zionism - and even Zionism has many different varieties, some of which are egalitarian and humanist. Which, of course, is the main reason why antisemitism is illogical - because Jews are extremely diverse, religously, racially, culturally, as diverse as all mankind.
In THAT sense, personally I support Israel, although not the Likudniks or Sharon or the settlers or the wall. And something like half (more or less, but a large portion) of the Israelis support Israel but are against the wall and other kinds of apartheid.
So I support THEIR Israel as one of God's many chosen nations.
Like I support Fijians and Cambodians and Belgians etc.
(BELGIANS! Oh no, that's flame bait for the Flemish-Walloon dispute! :-)

the creation of israel was like a huge meteor landing in the middle east -- i'm not sure that any one should be surprised by the violent reaction that has taken place.
i don't even think that humans have a choice but to react negatively to a shock as enormous as that -- look at the reaction of indigenous people the world over when faced with dislocation, migration, etc.
and yes -- propped up states, by their very definition would not be democracies.

there are many of us who share your point of view.

Including many Israeli military.

http://www.spectacle.org/0302/refuse.html
>>We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.<<

I can accept criticism of Israel, no problem -- it's just discussion! Provided, of course, that such discussion is sincere and not inflammatory. For example, when you say "they indiscriminantly kill INNOCENT Palestinians", I consider that inflammatory. Obviously, innocent civilians have been killed on both sides, equally tragic. It's up for discussion whether one side targets innocents more than the other side does. But you must be smart enough to realize that if Israel wanted to kill Palestinian civilians "indiscriminately" (say, like the Chinese did in Tiananmen Square, 1989), the casualty count would be an order of magnitude higher.

Nutshell disclosure of point-of-view: Supporter of Israel but not Likud, settlements are a tragic (for both sides) mistake, supporter of two-state solution.

THAT is indescriminate.

The Palestinians do it too, but that only means that the Israeli government is no better than the Palestinian terrorists.

Sad, but true.

For the first time in many years, Mr. Stauffer has tallied the total cost to the US of its backing of Israel in its drawn-out, violent dispute with the Palestinians. So far, he figures, the bill adds up to more than twice the cost of the Vietnam War.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

because of my sympathy for the semitic Palestinian people and a two state solution.

I'm still waiting to hear how Israel is democratic while having an apartheid system that denies the right to vote based on reliigion and skin color. And they have a caste system. That's why you don't see the darker skinned Israelis on TV. Those brown or black skinned Jewish folks can only have the shitty jobs.

refers only to a prejudice against Jews and has never meant anything but. that is simply what the word means--try looking it up in the dictionary. why people get into this semantic (and utterly useless) argument about that word mystifies me constantly.

As I see it the Palestinians have a right to self-government and a decent life for their families.

While most Israeli citizens may not wish harm to the Palestinian population, the ones with a political voice tend to.

Plus, it seems wrong that when Israel bombs apartment houses and refugee camps, it is an act of war, yet when Palestinians (who frankly, have nothing to lose anymore) bomb a target it is terrorism.

In the end, it seems that both sides need to give in and realize that all of their goals will not be met.

All Palestinians will not just quietly go into a walled-off area and live in poverty for eternity and Israel is not going anywhere either, so the only way for everyone to have a decent life is for the moderates on both sides to work for peace.

Sadly, that's not likely to happen.

I remember a settler's comment (Israeli, obviously) that I heard on an interview program several years ago. (No link, just my own memory of the comment) and it stuck in my mind. She said something to the effect that the entire middle east was "their" land (Israel's) and she would not rest until all Arabs had been driven out.

Strikingly similar to hard line Palestinian rhetoric.

It is a very sad situation. No one wants to see children killed by bombs, on either side.

Hint!

posts like this get made all the time, and just like this one, they subsequently get filled 90% with people saying how they support the Palestinian cause. I'd bet my bottom dollar that the majority of DU'ers are Pro-Palestinian.

With that said, I think you're blinding yourself to the truth as well. As far as I can see, there are pro-Israeli posters who say callous things about the lives of Palestinians, and there are also pro-Palestinian posters who say extraordinarily hateful things about Israel. I have certainly seen it coming from both sides--posters who don't mind bulldozing peoples homes, and posters who justify suicide bombing as a legitimate moral tactic. Even you, saying that what Hamas and Hezbollah do is "understandable" because they are terrorists crosses the line, in my opinion.

This is a highly-charged issue, and unlike most other ones that are discussed here, it really isn't partisan. There will be no furthering to the discussion by simply implying that those who disagree with you are as bad as Bush.

New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece. They may not be based on editorial cartoons or photographs. Citations and references should include a link to the original source.

Undergroundrailroad
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