Israeli army bulldozers decimate Palestinian olive groves

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0505041085172546.htm

Israeli occupation bulldozers on Wednesday destroyed a large number ancient olive trees belonging to Palestinian farmers at a village in the central West Bank.

According to eyewitnesses and international peace activists, as many as 85 trees were decimated at the village of Beli'n north West of Ramallah in order to make room for the gigantic apartheid wall Israel is building in the West Bank.

As part of a Palestinian non-violent resistance against the structure, sixteen protesters chained themselves into the olive trees while others held signs denouncing the apartheid wall and Israel's systematic repression of the Palestinians.

The Israeli army eventually cut the chains and dragged away the non-violent protesters.

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0505041085172546.htm

...the Israels may have destroyed trees that dated back to the time of Jesus.

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the wall to keep the israeli`s inside their country does not exist the wall is to keep people out does. 60 years ago and they have forgotten...

They remember. It guides some of what they do today. Self-preservation drives people to do all kinds of things, on both sides.

the abused have become the abusers.

It's a fairly common phenomena in families.

We can see it on both sides of the issue. And, just like a dysfunctional family, sometimes the abuse is not one-sided.

It may have happened, but this is a wholly biased site!

Deuteronomy 20:19 comes to mind:

When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by wielding an axe against them; for thou mayest eat of them, but thou shalt not cut them down; for is the tree of the field man, that it should be besieged of thee?

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0520.htm

So where are all the right-wing religious Jews insisting that disengagement is against Jewish law when it comes to this matter?

anybody doubt the "abuse" is one-sided. It should be noted that the attacks have increased dramatically since the Oslo accords, and especially since Arafat rejected the offer of statehood. Over 1,000 Israelis have died in the past few years.

It should also be noted that deaths have fallen off dramatically 1) since Arafat died and 2) since the wall has started being built.

So, I am sad about the olive trees - but TREES CAN BE REPLANTED OR REPLACED. I am more sad about all the lives - on both sides - that have been lost in this senseless violence. I am more sad that this damn wall apparently must be built.

Please click on the links, it is quite revealing. A sample page is opened below.

Chronology of Terrorist Attacks in Israel
Part VI: 2002
compiled by Wm. Robert Johnston
last updated 25 December 2003



9 Jan 2002 (0430) 4 soldiers killed, 2 injured in ambush near Kerem Shalom; two terrorists were killed
14 Jan 2002 1 soldier killed, 1 injured in shooting ambush near Kuchin
15 Jan 2002 1 American kidnapped and killed near Bethlehem, West Bank
15 Jan 2002 (2000) 1 killed, 1 injured in shooting attack at Givat Ze'ev
16 Jan 2002 1 killed in drive-by shooting near Jerusalem
17 Jan 2002 (2300) 6 killed, 35 injured in shooting attack at a bat mitzva reception
22 Jan 2002 2 killed, 40 injured in shooting attack at bus stop in Jerusalem
25 Jan 2002 (1115) 25 injured by suicide bombing outside cafe in Tel Aviv
27 Jan 2002 (1230) 1 killed, over 150 injured (including 4 Americans) in suicide bombing in Jerusalem
5 Feb 2002 3 killed (including 1 child and 1 soldier) in shooting attack in Moshav Hamra; the terrorist was also killed
8 Feb 2002 1 killed in stabbing attack in Jerusalem
9 Feb 2002 1 killed in shooting ambush on car in Samaria
10 Feb 2002 2 soldiers killed, 4 injured in drive-by shooting in Be'er Sheva; two terrorists were killed
14 Feb 2002 3 soldiers killed in bombing attack in Gaza
15 Feb 2002 1 soldier killed in shooting attack near Ramallah
16 Feb 2002 3 killed, 30 injured in suicide bombing at pizzeria in Karnei Shomron; one person killed died 27 Feb
18 Feb 2002 1 policeman killed by suicide bomber in Beit Zarzir
18 Feb 2002 3 killed (including 2 soldiers), 1 injured in shooting attack in Gush Katif; the terrorist was killed by explosive he was carrying
19 Feb 2002 6 soldiers killed, 1 injured in shooting attack near Ramallah
22 Feb 2002 1 killed in drive-by shooting near Jerusalem
25 Feb 2002 2 killed, 1 injured in shooting attack near Bethlehem
25 Feb 2002 1 policeman killed, 8 people injured in shooting attack on bus stop in Jerusalem
27 Feb 2002 3 policemen injured (one terrorist also killed) by suicide bombing at Maccabim roadblock
27 Feb 2002 1 killed in shooting attack near Jerusalem
28 Feb 2002 1 soldier killed during counter-terrorism operations near Nablus
1 Mar 2002 1 soldier killed by sniper in Jenin
2 Mar 2002 1 policeman killed in Judea
2 Mar 2002 (1915) 10 killed (including 6 children), over 50 injured by suicide bomber in Orthodox neighborhood of Jerusalem; the terrorist detonated the bomb next to a group of women with baby carriages outside a synagogue
3 Mar 2002 10 killed (including 7 soldiers) in shooting attack near Ofra
3 Mar 2002 1 soldier killed, 4 soldiers injured in shooting attack near Kissufim
5 Mar 2002 (0200) 3 killed (including 1 policeman), over 30 injured in shooting attack on two restaurants in Tel-Aviv
5 Mar 2002 1 killed, 1 injured in shooting attack near Jerusalem
5 Mar 2002 1 killed, many injured by suicide bombing on bus in Afula
6 Mar 2002 1 soldier killed in counter-terrorism operations nera Khan Yunis
6 Mar 2002 1 solider killed in shooting attack near Kibbutz Nir Oz
7 Mar 2002 15 injured (including 1 American) by suicide bombing (one terrorist also killed) in hotel lobby in Ariel
7 Mar 2002 5 killed, 23 injured in shooting attack at military training academy in Gush Katif
8 Mar 2002 1 soldier killed in sniper attack in Tulkarem
9 Mar 2002 2 killed (including 1 infant from South Africa), 50 injured in attack with grenades and guns on pedestrians in Natanya
9 Mar 2002 (2230) 11 killed, 54 injured by suicide bombing in crowded cafe in Jerusalem
10 Mar 2002 1 soldier killed in shooting at Natzarim
10 Mar 2002 1 injured in shooting at Ashdod
12 Mar 2002 1 killed, 1 injured in shooting attack at Kiryat Sefer
12 Mar 2002 6 killed, 7 injured by two terrorist shooters (both killed by Israeli forces) in ambush between Shlomi and Kibbutz Metzuba
12 Mar 2002 6 injured in shooting at Katzir near the West Bank
13 Mar 2002 1 soldier killed in shooting in Ramallah
14 Mar 2002 3 soldiers killed, 2 soldiers injured by remotely detonated landmine in Gaza
17 Mar 2002 25 injured by suicide bombing (one terorist also killed) on bus in Jerusalem
17 Mar 2002 1 killed, 16 injured in shooting attack in Kfar Sava; the terrorist was killed by police
19 Mar 2002 1 soldier killed, 3 soldiers injured in shooting attack in Jordan Valley
20 Mar 2002 7 killed (including 4 soldiers), 30 injured in suicide bombing of bus near Afula
21 Mar 2002 3 killed, 86 injured in suicide bombing in a crowd of shoppers in Jerusalem
24 Mar 2002 1 killed in shooting attack near Ramallah
24 Mar 2002 1 killed in shooting attack near Hebron
26 Mar 2002 2 killed by shooting ambush near Halhul; both were TIPH observers, one from Turkey, one from Switzerland
27 Mar 2002 27 killed, 140 injured in suicide bombing at Park Hotel in Netanya, during Passover
28 Mar 2002 3 killed in shooting attack by a terrorist invading a home in Elon Moreh in Samaria
29 Mar 2002 2 killed in the Neztarim settlement in Gaza
29 Mar 2002 2 soldiers killed during counter-terrorist operations
29 Mar 2002 2 killed, 28 injured in suicide bombing (one terrorist also killed) at Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem
30 Mar 2002 1 killed (died 4 Apr of injuries), 30 injured in suicide bombing in cafe in Tel-Aviv
30 Mar 2002 1 border policeman killed in shooting preventing entry by terrorists in Baka al-Garbiyeh
31 Mar 2002 15 killed, over 40 injured in suicide bombing (one terrorist also killed) at restaurant in Haifa
31 Mar 2002 (1700) 4 injured in suicide bombing (one terrorist killed) in attack on paramedic dispatch station in Efrat, West Bank
1 Apr 2002 1 police officer killed by suicide bomber when car was stopped in Jerusalem
1 Apr 2002 1 soldier killed in shooting attack by sniper near Jerusalem
4 Apr 2002 1 border policeman killed
6 Apr 2002 1 soldier killed, 5 soldiers injured by attack with guns and grenades in Gaza; the two terrorists were killed
9 Apr 2002 13 soldiers killed, 7 others injured by booby-trap bomb and subsequent shooting attack during counter-terrorism operations
9 Apr 2002 1 soldier killed, 12 others injured by bomb attack against patrol in Jenin
10 Apr 2002 8 killed (including 4 soldiers and 3 police officers), 22 injured by suicide bombing on a bus near Kibbutz Yagur, east of Haifa
12 Apr 2002 2 killed (including 1 policeman and 1 Palestinian), 7 injured in shooting attack near Erez crossing in Gaza Strip
12 Apr 2002 6 killed (including 2 Chinese), 104 injured by suicide bomber (bomber also killed) at bus stop in Jerusalem
20 Apr 2002 1 policeman killed in shooting attack near Erez in Gaza Strip; terrorist was killed during pursuit
27 Apr 2002 4 killed (including 1 child) and 7 injured in shooting attack by three terrorists who invaded homes in Adora
7 May 2002 15 killed and 55 injured in suicide bombing (one terrorist also killed) which caused partial collapse of game club in Rishon-Lezion
12 May 2002 1 killed in shooting attack in Gaza strip
19 May 2002 3 killed and 50 injured in suicide bombing (one terrorist also killed) in market in Netanya
20 May 2002 suicide bombing at an Afula bus stop kills only the terrorist
22 May 2002 2 killed (including 1 teenager) and 40 injured by suicide bombing at pedestrian mall in Rishon Lezion
24 May 2002 5 injured by suicide bombing in which terrorist (who was killed) unsuccessfully attempts to drive a car bomb into a Tel Aviv disco
27 May 2002 2 killed (including 1 child) and 37 injured by suicide bombing (one terrorist also killed) at an ice cream parlor in Petah Tikva
28 May 2002 1 killed and 1 injured in drive by shooting attack on a car near Ramallah
28 May 2002 3 teenagers killed while playing basketball in shooting attack in Itamar
5 Jun 2002 17 killed (including 13 soldiers and 1 civilian teenager) and 38 injured by a suicide car bombing (one terrorist also killed) attack on a bus at the Megiddo junction near Afula
6 Jun 2002 1 teenager killed in shooting attack near Ofra
8 Jun 2002 (0230) 3 killed (including 1 soldier and his 9-months-pregnant wife) and 5 injured in shooting attack by terrorists who invaded Carmei Tzur
11 Jun 2002 1 killed (a teenager) and 15 injured by a suicide bomber (one terrorist also killed) attack in a restaurant in Herzliya
15 Jun 2002 2 soldiers killed (one of whom died 22 Jun) and 4 soldiers injured in counterterrorist operations in the Gaza Strip near Alei Sinai and Dugit
18 Jun 2002 19 killed (including 1 child and 1 teenager) and 74 injured (including many students) by a suicide bomber (one terrorist also killed) attack on a bus in Jerusalem
19 Jun 2002 (1900) 7 killed (including 1 child and 2 teenagers) and 50 injured by a suicide bombing (one terrorist also killed) at a bus stop in northern Jerusalem
19 Jun 2002 2 soldiers killed and 4 soldiers injured while pursuing terrorists in Kalkilya
20 Jun 2002 5 killed (including a teenager and 2 children) killed and 4 injured (2 children and 2 soldiers) in a shooting attack by two terrorists who invaded a home in Itamar; both terrorists killed by IDF soldiers
10 Jul 2002 1 soldier killed in sniper attack in southern Gaza Strip
16 Jul 2002 9 killed (including 1 teenager, 1 baby delivered prematurely who died 17 July, and 1 adult who died 18 July of injuries) and 20 injured in attack on bus between Bnei Brak and Emmanuel; a bomb was detonated next to the bus and several terrorists opened fire
17 Jul 2002 1 soldier killed and 3 soldiers injured in gun battle with terrorists responsible for the previous day's bombing in Emmanuel
17 Jul 2002 5 killed (including 2 Chinese, one of whom died 24 July, 1 Romanian, and 1 Israeli who died 25 July) and 40 injured in double suicide bombing (both terrorists also killed) near bus station in Tel Aviv
25 Jul 2002 1 killed and 1 injured in shooting attack near Alei Zahav in the West Bank
26 Jul 2002 4 killed (including 1 soldier, 1 rabbi, and 1 child) and 2 children injured in shooting attack south of Hebron
30 Jul 2002 2 killed in shooting attack on truck in Jama'in in the West Bank
30 Jul 2002 5 injured by suicide bomber (one terrorist also killed) on Hanevi'im Street in Jerusalem
31 Jul 2002 7 killed (including 4 U.S. citizens and 1 U.S.-French citizen) and 86 injured in explosion of bomb planted in cafeteria at Hebrew University's Mt. Scopus campus
1 Aug 2002 1 killed in shooting attack near Tulkarem
4 Aug 2002 9 killed and 50 injured in suicide bombing (one terrorist also killed) on bus at Meron junction between Haifa and Safed
4 Aug 2002 2 killed and 16 injured in shooting attack near the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem's Old City; the terrorist was also killed by police
5 Aug 2002 2 killed and 1 child injured in shooting attack on car near Eli in Samaria
5 Aug 2002 failed bombing in which bomb explodes prematurely, killing one terrorist and injuring another
10 Aug 2002 1 killed and 1 injured in shooting attack near home in Moshav Mechora
20 Aug 2002 1 soldier killed by sniper near Khan Yunis in Gaza
5 Sep 2002 1 soldier killed and 1 wounded in sniper attack in northern Gaza Strip; the terrorist was also killed
5 Sep 2002 1 soldier killed and 3 wounded by a bomb exploding below their tank in the Gaza Strip
18 Sep 2002 1 killed in attack near el-Azzariya in West Bank near Jerusalem
18 Sep 2002 1 killed, 1 injured in shooting attack on car near Mevo Dotan
18 Sep 2002 1 police officer killed, 3 civilians injured in suicide bombing (one terrorist also killed) at bus stop at Umm al Fahm junction
19 Sep 2002 6 killed (including 1 teenager from Scotland) and 70 injured in suicide bombing (one terrorist also killed) on bus in Tel Aviv
23 Sep 2002 1 killed, 3 children injured in shooting attack in Hebron
26 Sep 2002 1 soldier killed during counter-terrorist operations in Labed, West Bank (one terrorist also killed)
30 Sep 2002 1 soldier killed, 1 injured in attack at Nablus casbah
8 Oct 2002 1 killed (died of injuries 9 Oct), 3 injured in shooting attack on car near Hebron
10 Oct 2002 1 killed, 30 injured by suicide bomber (one terrorist also killed) attempting to board a bus
21 Oct 2002 14 killed (including 7 soldiers and 1 teenager), 50 injured (including several soldiers) by suicide car bombers in jeep (two terrorists also killed) attacking a bus
27 Oct 2002 3 soldiers killed, 20 civilians and soldiers injured by suicide bombing at gas station near Ariel in Samaria
29 Oct 2002 3 killed (including 2 teenagers), 2 injured in shooting attack by terrorist invading Hermesh settlement in Samaria; the terrorist was shot and killed
4 Nov 2002 2 killed (including 1 teenager), 70 injured in suicide bombing at a shopping mall in Kfar Sava
6 Nov 2002 2 killed (including 1 teenager) in shooting attack in Pe'at Sadeh, Gaza Strip; the terrorist was shot and killed
9 Nov 2002 1 soldier killed, 1 injured by mine explosion in Gaza Strip
10 Nov 2002 5 killed (including 2 children) in shooting attack by terrorist who invaded Kibbutz Metzer near Hadera
15 Nov 2002 12 killed (including 9 soldiers), 15 injured in shooting attack in Hebron (3 terrorists also killed)
18 Nov 2002 1 killed in shooting attack near Rimonim
21 Nov 2002 11 killed (including 4 children and 1 Romanian), 50 injured in suicide bombing on bus in Jerusalem
22 Nov 2002 1 soldier killed in shooting attack near Tel Qateifa in the Gaza Strip
28 Nov 2002 6 killed, 40 injured in attack by two terrorists using guns and grenades at a Likud party polling place at Beit She'an, during primary voting
12 Nov 2002 2 soldiers killed in attack in Hebron
20 Dec 2002 1 killed in shooting attack on car near Afula, Gaza
27 Dec 2002 4 killed (including 2 soldiers and 2 teenagers), 10 injured (including 6 soldiers) in attack on kitchen in Otniel (2 terrorists also killed)


http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael.html

Chronology of Terrorist Attacks in Israel
Introduction
compiled by Wm. Robert Johnston
last updated 2 February 2005

Contents:

Chronology of terrorist attacks in Israel, introduction
Part 1: 1949-1967
Part 2: 1968-1980
Part 3: 1981-1992
Part 4: 1993-2000
Part 5: 2001
Part 6: 2002
Part 7: 2003
Part 8: 2004
Part 9: 2005

Notes: These listings are believed to be mostly complete from 1974 to the present (for information on completeness, see Summary of terrorist attacks in Israel. See the sources listed below for additional information, including information on some additional fatalities suffered during antiterrorist combat operations.

Terms: Identifications of victims, as known, include soldiers, foreign citizens, teenagers (ages 13-19, excluding soldiers), children (ages 1-12), and infants (ages under 1 year). \

A couple more links.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/israel-terror.htm
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/osloterr.html

when we're talking about.....olive groves ? :eyes:


And lets not forget the American Victims of Palestinian Terrorism

http://avpv.tripod.com/AmericanVictims.html


I would c/p it, but its really to damn depressing.

:9

:rofl:

...the beloved JPost:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1115173225222


...and yeah, it's hilarious when someones livelihood is destroyed. A real knee-slapper.

people who try to help them are run over by bulldozers
and slandered after there dead ...

:eyes: simply fu*king hilarious :eyes:

between terrorism against israelis and terrorism on olive trees , I DONT EQUATE the two.

Dead trees can be replaced......dead victims of terrorism cant.

I promise, if actual and attempted terrorism against innocent israelis were to end, you have my word I will become a SAVE THE OLIVE TREES advocate.

I will become the St. Rachel of the Olive tree world.lol

The thousands of dead palastinians, or are they not murders they are just deaths.

No there are not all terrorists before you right in the intifad 3-4 times as many palastinians have lost their lives as Isrealis plus having their land stolen

And more germans died that Americans in WWII.

And your point is ?

kind of logic is that. The Nazis were trying to conquer the fucking planet and enslave people based on racial superiority.

The palastinians had a legitimate country of their own until zionist terrorists rose up and stole it.

My point is this. Why is an innocent isreali death more significant to you than an innocent palastinian death?

Both are murder, both are disgusting

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).


There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
The Three Circles:

Article Fourteen:
The question of the liberation of Palestine is bound to three circles: the Palestinian circle, the Arab circle and the Islamic circle. Each of these circles has its role in the struggle against Zionism. Each has its duties, and it is a horrible mistake and a sign of deep ignorance to overlook any of these circles. Palestine is an Islamic land which has the first of the two kiblahs (direction to which Moslems turn in praying), the third of the holy (Islamic) sanctuaries, and the point of departure for Mohamed's midnight journey to the seven heavens (i.e. Jerusalem).

"Praise be unto him who transported his servant by night, from the sacred temple of Mecca to the farther temple of Jerusalem, the circuit of which we have blessed, that we might show him some of our signs; for Allah is he who heareth, and seeth." (The Night-Journey - verse 1).


Since this is the case, liberation of Palestine is then an individual duty for very Moslem wherever he may be. On this basis, the problem should be viewed. This should be realised by every Moslem.

The day the problem is dealt with on this basis, when the three circles mobilize their capabilities, the present state of affairs will change and the day of liberation will come nearer.

"Verily ye are stronger than they, by reason of the terror cast into their breasts from Allah. This, because they are not people of prudence." (The Emigration - verse 13).
The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Duty:

Article Fifteen:
The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.

It is necessary that scientists, educators and teachers, information and media people, as well as the educated masses, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening (the masses). It is important that basic changes be made in the school curriculum, to cleanse it of the traces of ideological invasion that affected it as a result of the orientalists and missionaries who infiltrated the region following the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah el-Din (Saladin). The Crusaders realised that it was impossible to defeat the Moslems without first having ideological invasion pave the way by upsetting their thoughts, disfiguring their heritage and violating their ideals. Only then could they invade with soldiers. This, in its turn, paved the way for the imperialistic invasion that made Allenby declare on entering Jerusalem: "Only now have the Crusades ended." General Guru stood at Salah el-Din's grave and said: "We have returned, O Salah el-Din." Imperialism has helped towards the strengthening of ideological invasion, deepening, and still does, its roots. All this has paved the way towards the loss of Palestine.

It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. Palestine contains Islamic holy sites. In it there is al- Aqsa Mosque which is bound to the great Mosque in Mecca in an inseparable bond as long as heaven and earth speak of Isra` (Mohammed's midnight journey to the seven heavens) and Mi'raj (Mohammed's ascension to the seven heavens from Jerusalem).

"The bond of one day for the sake of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it. The place of one's whip in Paradise is far better than the world and whatever there is on it. A worshipper's going and coming in the service of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it." (As related by al-Bukhari, Moslem, al-Tarmdhi and Ibn Maja).

"I swear by the holder of Mohammed's soul that I would like to invade and be killed for the sake of Allah, then invade and be killed, and then invade again and be killed." (As related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
.......................................................

you were saying something about trying to conquer the other countries and overwhelm people based on superiority ?

nation-state. Its not a country or government nor does it represent all palastinian people.

This is not a conflict between two nations, it is a conflict between a democratic country and terrorist groups.

For you to infer that every palastinian, arab, or muslim abides by this is ridiculous.

I'm a Christian i do not abide by everything in the bible.

Thank God for the Enlightenment (slight joke that line just realised)

Moderates are to be found in all works of life, as are rational people. Zionism is not rational nor are Hamas or extremist fundamentalism.

For a democratic country to have its foreign policy influenced to such an extent by things written thousands of years ago may as well talk to the fairies at the bottom of the garden.

The enlightenment began hudreds of years ago.

What do you suggest would solve this conflict?

HAMAS is not a country...yet. Elections are upcoming ( today ?) and hamas is expected to win.....BIG !!

So your assertion that hamas is not a country may not be true in the very near future.


You speak of moderates....help me out....WHO ARE THESE PALESTINIAN MODERATES??? I honestly dont know who they are. Oh there have been a few people in the that advocated peace and spoke out against terrorism, unfortunately they soon are killed....usually mercilessly.

So, seriously....who are these "moderates"? PLEASE TEACH ME.

Thank you in advance.




btw....youre may very well be right..."it is a conflict between a democratic country and terrorist groups."

the election is in 2 days.

Anyone wanna bet on how big hamas will win ??






If they do win....big ....you may have to change your first sentence..

Hamas is not a nation-state. Its not a country or and a government nor that does it represent all palastinian people.

apparently the elections are today.

I need a PDA.

For the sake of everyone in that area they don't.

Do you know what form the elections are taking? I mean what kind of parliament/government will be formed?

Will it be representative or majority rule?

I still don't think they'll get the majority vote, i think we both hhope i'm right, but we'll talk again when we know.

RE:Moderates. You're right i can't name names, and you're also right many are murdered that doesn't mean giving up. Most views i've heard from within the palistinian refugee camps are along the lines of how much they hate the IDF yes, but also how they would love to live normally.

The mothers, the grandmothers, the children, the bakers, the teachers, the students, the butchers etc

This is where you'll find moderates. These people are not aliens, they are human beings like you or I who given the chance would live normal lives like you or i. Extremism is not in their genes, just like its not in yours or my genes.

They are subjugated and oppressed by both the IDF and Hamas, by both the isreali extremists and the palastinian extremists.

Killing their children, bulldozing their houses, stealing their farms, destroying their crops, building towns on their land etc does not help people to remain moderate in thought.

Just like blowing up restaraunts and buses and murdering people on their way to work does not aid moderate thought in isreal, but moderate thought, unbiased thought, unemotional thought and rational thought is the only type of thought that will result in peace from and on both sides.

Just as on the isreali side these people would choose a normal life over this situation.

considered to be - and of course, pro-Israelis still consider it to be - extremely rational.

For one thing, there was a dire need for the Jewish people, and it is even more obvious today, to have a homeland. Nor is it irrational for people who in any case, aren't allowed to FORGET that they are different, to want to be together where their differentness won't result in being seen as second class, inferior, threatening, damned, or somehow plotting to Run The World.

Secondly, it seemed like a logical and rational fit. It still does, given what each group of people has to offer the other.

Here are some excerpts from the Faisal-Frankfurter Correspondence. Faisal of course was the Sherif of Mecca, later the Hashemite King of Iraq:

Dear Mr. Frankfurter,

...We feel that the Arabs and Jews are cousins in race, having suffered similar oppressions at the hands of powers stronger than themselves, and by a happy coincidence have been able to take the first step toward the attainment of their national ideals together. We Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organization to the Peace Conference and we regard them as moderate and proper. We will do our best, in so far as we are concerned, to help them through. We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home.

...Dr. Weizmann has been a great helper of our cause, and I hope the Arabs may soon be in a position to make the Jews welcome in return for their kindness. We are working together on a reformed and revived Near East, and our two movements complete one another. The Jewish movement is national not imperialist; our movement is national and not imperialist; and there is room in Syria for us both. Indeed, I think that neither can be a real success without the other.

People less informed and less reasonable than our leaders and yours, ignoring the need for co-operation of the Arabs and Zionists, have been trying to exploit the local difficultires that must necessarily arise in Palestine in the early states of our movement. Some of them have, I am afraid, misrepresented your aims to the Arab peasantry and our aims to the Jewish peasantry with the result, that interested parties have been able to make capital out of what they call our differences.

...I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us, so that the countries in which we are mutually interested may once again take their places in the community of civilized people of the world.

Believe me,
Yours sincerely,
FAISAL


Sadly, I submit, interested parties - like Hamas - are STILL trying to make capital out of what they call our differences. But it is not too late.

People need to learn, though, that the genesis of Zionism was hardly conceived as an evil, or as an attempt to rob the Arab people, but rather to contribute to the rebirth of an ancient land. And they need to remember, that some of the wisest and best educated of Arab leaders were completely in favor of the experiment, seeking to add to the cultural, political and economic base of a long-neglected region.

We need to realize too, though, that the parties Faisal warned of became the dominant voices, and that an even more horrible World War, accompanied by an evil philosophy, would soon rise in Europe. Its evil spilled over into the Middle East, and set the great streets upon the small, and did terrible damage to the great dream.

Speaking for myself, I have long and often sadly, envisioned a time when our ancient cradle in the Middle East will again glow with a brilliant light, with true tolerance, moderation and creativity. There will be water for all! A new enlightenment - but built upon the ancient crouching cities with their long long dreams. This is not the West. What shape will it take?

It will be something really new, I think. It will combine cutting edge 21st century technology with ancient agricultural and pastoral wisdom. It will work to nuture the fragile environment, to maximize and protect its fruitfulness, while promoting the broadest and most liberal of educational schemes in the cities. It will respect a great diversity of religion and philosophy, while establishing that each has a place and none is the "only" or the dominant, or the "best", idea. It will be a true bridge between Europe and the West, and the great world of Asia to the south and the East. It will smell like Africa. It will remember - no - it will nurture its beautiful delicate horses and its falcons, its camels and its cats.

And it will take time, and great patience, to bring it forth.

May respect for man, for woman, for land, for tree and plant and animal, and for all the arts of peace, again shine forth from these ancient lands.

bring peace to the people in this region.

And for people (not perhaps you personally) to infer that by criticising isreal is automatically anti-semitic grates my bones.

During the six day war isreal had the moral backing of the world including myself. It was under attack, it was the oppressed the bullied, the put upon.

Now however we must look at realities and practicalities.

Every death is 100% tragic to the person and the family who dies yes. But i must repeat that for a legitimate democratic nation to behave in the way isreal has over the past few years is a affront to humanity and civilised society.

The utter wilful neglect of the safety of innocent people in the refugee camps, the murder of many, and the outright oppression and domination of a race of people based on their race must stop.

Just as that other affront to humanity, terrorist murder of innocents must end.

I see the problem in much of what many of you say. Its cause and effect. From one side the cause and effect is seen as thus, and from the other side it is visa versa.

Mixed into here is religious bigotry and nationalistic bigotry from both sides.

I don't have visions of light myself in the middle East i see it as quite depressing as long as rational, unemotional thought is sidelined and religion is at the forefront of decisions making.

equating all Palestinians with terrorists (in this case Hamas) is a no-no.

At the end of the day, more Palestinian civilians are killed by the IDF, than Israeli civilians by Palestinian terrorists. By claiming that they do not target civilians (though that is debatable - there are several threads covering that), the IDF are not considered terrorists.

i have never done that.....and I do not believe that.

I have however equated palestinian terrorists with palestinian terrorists.....the kind that murder pregnant women eating pizza or that other dangerous group thats a favorite target...people riding a bus.

Ottoman Empire until the British came. There were MAYBE 400,000 people, living under a feudal system, in a region that now supports close to 10,000,000 and is, both within Israel and within the Palestinian territories, politically democratic.

So yes - there have been losses - but there have also been great gains.

The Zionists were NOT terrorists, they were INVITED by no less than the Sherif of Mecca and were granted the right to settle in this sparsely populated region by the League of Nations. They bought land at exorbitant rates, and even paid squatters. People immigrated into this region from other territories, so that the Arab population grew alongside the Jewish, and the income levels of the region grew as well.

Originally, the area they were granted encompassed Israel, the West Bank - AND TRANSJORDAN. What they wound up with - and accepted, still hoping to live side by side in peace with their Arab neighbors - was a tiny, barely contiguous strip of land beside the sea.

The Arabs were offered a state, to be a Palestinian state, at that time. They turned it down and 5 armies invaded the day Eretz Israel was declared.

This followed very specific threats to kill every Jew in the region - on top of decades of violence directed at Jewish people all over the Middle East, not just in the Palestinian region. No doubt, these threats having followed not just those decades of violence, but the Holocaust itself - which many blame at least partially on the Mufti of Jerusalem - himself guilty of murdering and driving away many moderate Arabs - was taken seriously by the Jewish soldiers.

Israel lost 1% of its population in the War of Independence. You do the math - what would that mean in American terms?

Following the War of Independence and the Naqba, revenge was taken on the Jewish communities of the Middle East, which today is essentially judenrein. Some 900,000 people lost their homes also.

Please do NOT try to present this as a one-sided conflict. It is not, it never was.

And please do not feel that we do not care about the deaths of Palestinians. That is not true. But, some of us get the feeling that the pro-Palestinian contingent is full of hatred for the people of Israel - and that upsets us deeply. So, occasionally we lash out.

It should also be remembered that Arafat was offered statehood on excellent terms, including some forty billion dollars in reparations, and he turned it down. Instead, we have had several years of terrible violence that has killed thousands of people.

We ARE concerned with the Palestinian people but we are ALSO concerned with the Israeli people, and do not consider the destruction of Israel a suitable resolution to the conflict, nor do we appreciate the ENDLESS attacks on Eretz Israel and the demonization of her people.

If you DO consider the destruction of Israel a suitable resolution to the conflict, as some here seem to, I will trouble you no further. This is a PROGRESSIVE and LIBERAL website, not a violent and reactionary website. We are trying to find PEACEFUL solutions to the world's problems, not empower violence and more killing.

You may notice, there were peaceful elections today, in Palestinian cities and towns. How many Arab states enjoy that right? How many enjoy literacy rates of more than 86%?

The Jewish people, like Christians, Kurds, Zoroastrians, Assyrians, Armenians, Copts, plus scads of other minority groups, have rights in the Middle East. They were resident there long before the Islamic Arab majority destroyed THEIR rights to live as equals, and took their lands and their homes. Probably ONE MILLION Christians have been murdered since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, the Kurds also are stateless, the few Jewish people remaining in communities in, for example Syria, are terribly oppressed as are the Copts in Egypt. The Christians of Lebanon are in a precarious position, increasingly a minority. The Berber matriarchies of North Africa are under great pressure. One could on.

So please do not point the accusing finger bone at the Israelis. They, too, are caught up in the web of history and violence, and have suffered enormously from it. There have been five wars and countless acts of violence, since 1948. It is not only Palestinians who suffer. And it is important, to go forward, for everybody to see that and to acknowledge it.

Today, the people of Israel have a great deal to offer the people of the Middle East: technology, intellectual property, great universities, cutting edge research, the opportunity to share with their neighbors desalinization techniques and modern farming and post-industrialisation. This can be a win-win situation - as it was always planned to be by progressive thinkers like Theodore Herzl, Chaim Weizmann, Ben-Gurion and the Sherif of Mecca. Brave men like Anwar Sadat and the Sherif's nephew Hussein of Jordan, and his son Abdullah, are trying to move forward even as the radicals continue to assert their rights.

Even as people vote today, the Palestinian schools continue to teach The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Even as people go to the polls, the militant groups refuse to disarm. Even as the Israelis plan to withdraw, no peace agreements are forthcoming. Oppression of the Palestinian people continues, but so do provocations and attempted bombings.

Sadat lost his life in the service of peace, as did the Israeli Rabin. Now, Arafat has passed on and we have, perhaps, a statesman, rather than a revolutionary, in the person of Abu Mazzen. The old warrior Sharon is ramming the idea of withdrawal down the throats of the right, and those who feel religiously and historically entitled, to all of ancient Israel.

Don't let the jingoists destroy this chance. And please don't be one!

you got my vote.

Great post.

Thank you Don. And blessings to all on this solemn day.

Originally they were indeed part of the British Mandate of Palestine, but they were never given to the Zionists.

that reason, many Israelis to this day believe that the further partition was "illegal" and counter to the original proposition.

Others do believe that the INTENT of the original discussion between Faisal and Weizmann was to give the entire Mandate to the Jewish people. At least, that's the way I understand it.

that those who complain the loudest about the importance of honouring the innocent victims,of treating them with dignity,of being respectful, are also those who defame the deceased,who make grotesque & ghoulish attempts at humour,& find the misfortune of others an appropriate subject for ridicule.

What's with that?:shrug:

Generalissimo Francisco FrancoChairman Yasir Arafat is still dead!"

of which there are three times as many. Lets not forget having 80% of your country stolen. Lets not forget a foreign army rolling tanks across your land to build new towns which will only house people from the country next door,. Lets not forget having your children shot dead for throwing stones at a tank that is bulldozing down your house. Lets not forget being forced to live in refugee camps for your whole life. Lets not forget being kept in the worst poverty on the planet by your neighbour.

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Or do they not count. There have been approximately three times as many palastinian deaths as isreali deaths, but hey what do you expect when fighting apaches and tanks with stones.

All death of innocents is abbhorent, but why are all isreali deaths viewed as murder when all palastinian deaths are viewed as just "killed" and statistics.

And no they aren't all terrorists most deaths on both sides are of innocent people, but when a tank comes into your refugee camp and bulldozes your house to the ground, maybe you would throw stones.

Why can't everyone condemn murder equally rather than saying this murder is more acceptable than this murder .........

All deaths of innocents are abhorent.

No, if's, and's, or but's.

L-

And I'll just add that the habit of some on either 'side' of the conflict to use innocent victims in some bizarre 'look at my more worthy victims!!!!' thread-hijacking tactic when they can't stand the fact that their favourite Side That Should NEVER EVER EVER Be Criticised (except by the Cheer Squad and only then ensuring the use of lots and lots of excuses for the behaviour) could be in for some deserved criticism is imo just a bit repulsive and cynical....

Violet...

above admittedly lengthy post, is the endless demonization of Israel and the Israelis.

That gets SO old.

So, we lash back, sometimes with a kind of black humor.

People forget that there have been Israeli casualties too. Sadness over the trees, in this case, seemed to be overshadowing the very real need - unfortunately - for this wall. That's why I posted the casualty reports. It is apparent that for too many who post here, Israeli deaths are simply not considered as "real", and only Palestinians should be pitied. That is just as wrong as not caring for Palestinian life. And people don't realize, this has been going on for ages. It is not a recent phenomenon.

In many posts, the Israelis are ALWAYS wrong, they DELIBERATELY ran over poor Rachel with the bulldozer, even though bulldozer drivers have testified you can't SEE out of them well at all; they DELIBERATELY killed Jim Miller - even though it was DARK. The soldier whose gun accidentally discharged and killed a child should be strung up or worse. You see what I mean?

Even this recent shooting of the two young boys near Ramallah was far from a straightforward situation. The construction workers and the five soldiers guarding them were surrounded by maybe 200 people, apparently throwing rocks.

I don't know if you've ever been in a situation like that - but it is frightening. I would bet that an awful lot of the Palestinian deaths resulted from fear and overreaction on the part of the soldiers - many of whom are just kids themselves. And rocks can kill.

There is great hope now. Let's work together to help it along. The tone recently has been very aggravated and mean. I hate to see that!

Cries of victimization don't work from one side when both sides are bleeding profusely.

seeking a straightforward document, as I stated on an earlier post, such as the one I posted about Israelis, about the Palestinian people.

Unfortunately, everything I've dug up so far has been heavily politicized, seeking again to demonize the Israelis rather than simply state the facts. I do not want to play into that mindset.

You know, maybe THIS will be the war that ends all wars. Unlike some of the really big ones, every house, every tree, every life, is counted in this one, by people around the world. This war has a human face. Maybe people will finally come to see, in this humanized war, the evil of war itself.

Peace to you and yours.

equivalent. There are graphs showing dead Israelis vs dead Palestinians, but that is so pointless. I was hoping to find names, something that would personalize and memorialize the lost lives.

I'll continue searching.

In fact a more noble project i can't think of would be to produce the list of names of all the dead in this conflict from day one.

In fact (impossible i know) but all deaths in this region as a result of conflict of all time.

To look at such a list may shake some humanity back into all sides and an awakening as to the futility of it all.

Would humanity prevail over religious bigotry?

I'm cynical so probably not but such a list would humiliate all involved.

But, I would settle for a list.

Not a bad long range project, thanks for the idea. From all time, impossible - but even for last few decades, it would be something at least.

with a wall you have to keep adding to it unfortunately, which gave me an idea.

(And this is not sarcastic) Someone to carve the names into the wall the Isrealis are building.

I'm sure whoever did it would be accused of collaboration with the other side for mixing the names together, but hey.

Every time there is a death that persons name is added. (This is starting to sound idealistic now but) both isrealis and palestinian families affected by death could mourn in the same place.

This would either become a symbol for peace or a symbol for calling for revenge.

Faith in humanity suggests the former. Cynicism doesn't.

By the way, while we are on the subject of remembering, if you ever go to Europe visit Ypres in Belgium.

They rebuilt the menin gate after it was destroyed in the First World War. Its a 100 feet high stone structure and carved into it is the names of all the British soldiers whose bodies were never found so never got a grave. 50 000 of them are carved into it from the battle of Paschendale alone.

And every night at eight a clock two local soldiers march under the arch and play the last post to give their thanks to the British then march off again. This has happened every single night (bar occupation in ww2) for 80 years. Its the most moving thing i've ever experienced, and the biggest anti-war advert i've ever seen.