Enough is enough: Time to play hardball

The supposedly more "moderate" Hamas refused to condemn the attack by Islamic Jihad. That was logical given the recent statement of a senior Hamas official. Mahmoud Zahar said that he would "definitely not" settle for co-existence with Israel--even if it withdrew to its 1967 borders.

-

Thousands of innocent civilians such as van Gogh have been murdered by Islamic extremists--in Darfur, Gaza, India, Israel, Lebanon, London, Madrid, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippines, Thailand, Tunisia, Turkey and the United States. The carnage gives credence to the adage that while the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, the vast majority of global terrorists most certainly are Muslims.

The killers always allege particular gripes--Australian troops in Iraq, Christian proselytizing, Hindu intolerance, occupation of the West Bank, theft of Arab petroleum, the Jews, attacks on the Taliban, the 15th Century reconquest of Spain, and, of course, the Crusades.

But in most cases--from Mohamed Atta, who crashed into the World Trade Center, to Sheik Omar Saeed, the former London School of Economics student who planned the beheading of Daniel Pearl, to Magdy Asi el-Nashar, the suspected American-educated bombmaker in London--the common bond is not poverty, a lack of education or legitimate grievance. Instead it is blind hatred instilled by militant Islam.

Civilization has only two choices. It can continue to appease these murderers, looking in vain for "root causes" of the mayhem. Maybe Mohammed Bouyeri did not have equal opportunity in Holland? Maybe $50 billion in past American aid to Mohamed Atta's Egypt was too little? Maybe Britain was too insensitive to its Muslim minorities? Maybe the price paid for Middle East oil really is too low?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0507220305jul22,1,6967465.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

............................................................

At a certain point, excuses and understanding becomes a circular firing squad.

"militant Islam"? Bomb them? Invade Iraq? Iran? Syria?

NO, its not like the other 2 world wars. This is a different world war that so far has affected every continent.And seemingly the target is anyone who doesnt agree with terrorism aims....and even those that do.

At this point one tries to stop the money and incentives for terrorism and it may reach a point where free socities may have no other options.

And with Iran, by most accounts the #1 sponsor of terrorism,getting a nuke, raises the stakes that much more.

First off, the Iran machinations have to do with the Iranian Oil Bourse which is meant to trade oil for Euros in early 2006. The only "terrorists" are US provocateurs and nutcases local to the areas they bomb (generally ignored as minor law enforcement stories).

Second, some said the "Cold War" was "WWIII" and say that what's coming is "WWIV." The comments are googlable and available from mainstream news sites (just like Boykin's "appointed by God" comment about Dubya). This makes a vague amount of sense. I wonder if this "WWIV" will likewise transcend the usual sphere of prior world wars as the purported "WWIII" did. Something about "asymmetry" has been mentioned.

bushinc staged a coup overthrowing the legal representative government of the american people....before one tries wipe off someone elses' face, wipe off their own face (that's in the bible)!
EVERY SINGLE THING since nov 7/00 is suspect, because criminal have seized control of the media (in order to abet the bush coup in first place)
especially anything to do with israel/ME/oil...

http://www.israelemb.org/non-political-FAQ.html#10

"How can I join the IDF?

Generally, eligibility for IDF recruitment is given to Israeli citizens who have reached the age of recruitment (18). In addition, new immigrants to Israel are also required to serve in the IDF. For further inquires about the IDF and your recruitment eligibility you should contact our consular department: P: 202-364-5527. F: (202) 364-5429. They will be glad to assist you Monday through Friday, 9:30 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. Unfortunately, this department section is not available via e-mail."

or:

http://www.marines.com/request/contact_recruiter_request.asp

At a certain point, excuses become...

that because i'm not in the military then my opinion is wrong?

and that anyone who doesnt walk in lockstep doesnt see whats really going on?

i just..well i struggle to find a way to react to the items you post and your commentary,as im sure you understand. Poor attempts at humor sometimes result..
I'm all for variety in opinion and wouldnt deny you the right to yours.
but the picture of the world you paint scares me.WWIII?
The only people who seem to want this WWIII are a few extremists.
and the only places these extremists have real power and the WMD's to make it so are in the USA and Israel.

is really bizarre.....for extremists i think you should look at saudi arabia where they chop off limbs for crimes...perhaps iran where they hang 13yr olds for have "big mouths"...or maybe N.Korea where they cant feed their own population but can build missles.....the govts of israel and the US may not be to your liking but to claim they are extremists is to "rape the word".

er for further examples of extremist countries, china may be appropriate as well...since runnig over people with APCs duringa protest probably isnt such a thing most of us would do.....jus guessing here, but zimbabawa with the way the killed and stole land from white farmers might fit the description...or simply racist.....but neither the US nor Israel are extremist countries...

and i dont think its unfair to call that extremist?
i agree with you that china and zimbabwe and north korea also have extremists in power,and maybe only to a slightly lesser extent in Iran but i wont argue that point of yours.
It is about relative power though in my eyes.
I dont get many arguments from liberals if i say that the history of american foreign policy is extremist?
I dont have to get into common knowledge do i?
I'm not the first to draw a parallel between the neo-cons and al-qaida either.

terrorism would magically disappear??

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from a era i had hoped was long gone
and we all now know the real reasons behind all that?

i have looked under my bed and i didn't find a crazy wide eyed islamic terrorist with a bomb strapped to his body.
when i went outside a bit later i did notice that every muslim i see looks more scared than angry and when i say hi and i smile i see surprise and relief.
It felt alot better than walking around all day with "WWIII" "WWIII" "evil muslim terrorists" "WWIII" running through my head.
think about it. ;)

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i have looked under my bed and i didn't find a crazy wide eyed islamic terrorist with a bomb strapped to his body.

guess you werent in sharmel sheik last night...or in certain subway stations last week, or a bus, a couple days ago.....or in netanyas mall a couple of days ago....

I wont be surprised if soon you have to open up your bags to have them checked before you enter a bus, or store or subway....and it will be because of those "wide eyed islamic terrorists"

you may not like the idea behind it, it may bother you to generalize.....but in western europe the chances of finding a christian/jewish/hindu/buddist suicide bomber are not that high compared to the islamic one.....

the world is at war.....unfortunately some people havent realized it yet.

a war against Muslims :crazy:

Do you really think we are "at war"? That is insane. We have created more terrorism by supporting the BASE policies of Israel, invading Iraq, supporting the Taliban, supporting anti-Muslim (Azerbaijan), not admitting a secular Islamic country to the EU...the list goes on and on.

Oh, and what about those terrorist organizations like: KKK, Tamil Tigers, ETA, IRA, LRA (Uganda), Interhamwe (that only recently surrendered after slaughtering 800,000 people), OK City bombers, IDF and others? Yeah, they're all Islams too! :sarcasm:

Just...wow.

I honestly believe the world is at war.....and to a certain degree the battle is now joined.

The ones you mentioned ,KKK, Tamil Tigers, ETA, IRA, LRA (Uganda), Interhamwe (that only recently surrendered after slaughtering 800,000 people),and OK City bombers are not global .

Radical islamic fundamnentalism is.

Sorry, it may be simple to falsely blame israel and us foreign policy and certainly terrorists love to cover their atrocities with these reasons, but the facts are there are a number of groups and people who disagree with us and britain policy who DONT murder innocent people RIDING BUSSES and subways or slamming planes into skyscrapers or murdering a film director or blowing up pizzerias or night clubs.

From the opening article....

Thousands of innocent civilians such as van Gogh have been murdered by Islamic extremists--in Darfur, Gaza, India, Israel, Lebanon, London, Madrid, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippines, Thailand, Tunisia, Turkey and the United States. The carnage gives credence to the adage that while the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, the vast majority of global terrorists most certainly are Muslims.


The world IS at war.....whether you chose to believe it or not.



Something you might also want to read....

Muslims today face an urgent moral challenge, which they must respond to in a number of ways. They must refrain from reiterating the worn-out refrain that there is a conspiracy which aims to undermine Muslims and their image in the world. Every country, culture and society has its adversaries and opponents, and there are always conspiracies being hatched. But we must understand that it is the behaviour of individuals and groups that define themselves as Muslim which has allowed this stereotyping of Muslims to spread. Ignorant bigots, with the audacity to speak in the name of God, his Prophet and the Islamic religion, as well as for millions of Muslims throughout the world have hijacked Islam. It will remain hijacked for the foreseeable future.

Muslim and Arab intellectuals and opinion leaders must confront and oppose any attempt to excuse the barbaric acts of these groups on the grounds of the suffering endured by Muslims in Palestine, Chechnya and elsewhere around the world. In condemning atrocities committed against innocent Muslim civilians, women and children, we must condemn too, and with equal force, similar acts committed against the innocent of any religion or culture. We must categorically refuse the linking of such acts to our religion and our belief system. The death of innocent people in Palestine, Iraq or Chechnya can never justify killing innocent people in Nepal, Turkey, Spain or France. Moral values are indivisible. We criticise the US for employing double standards. We must not make the same mistake.

Our most difficult, and most important, challenge is to create a strong body of Islamic public opinion which loudly condemns the actions of these groups. They must no longer be allowed to hijack Islam. The Muslim majority must declare to peoples of all cultures and religions, and in the clearest of terms, their condemnation of these acts, and their determination to bring them to an end. Strong and vocal Muslim opinion will show up these groups for the aberrations they are.

Tackling this task is long overdue. Institutions must be created through which the public can be informed and through which it can participate and express its opinions. The emergence of a well-informed public willing to make its opinions heard cannot, however, happen overnight. Fortunately there are institutions already in place that can play an important role. There is no doubt that Al- Azhar, with its unique prestige based on its long history and wide-ranging structures, should have been at the forefront of this effort. It should have been the first to speak out and condemn such barbaric acts. We must make it abundantly clear that the actions of these groups have no relationship to Islam, which is a religion based on compassion and mercy, one that clearly states that adherents of other religions must in no way be demeaned or coerced and whose prophet admonished his followers never to kill women or children while engaging in battle.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/709/op8.htm

......................end...............................

The world ISN'T at war, the faster you get that through your head the better.

Those were terrorist organizations, not general categories. Unless you haven't noticed, Islamic Fundamentalism is not an ORGANIZATION, it is a BROAD MOVEMENT (and Interhamwe and IRA are multi-national).

The world is NOT at war. The "enemy" is a group of terrorists, not an army or a country or even a large group of people; the enemy is also our own actions, which only helps the terrorists' cause. To have a "war against terror" is to have a war against an idea, against a tactic; this is impossible and ill-conceived.

Also, would you say that we are 'at war' with the Irish? Would you say that we are 'at war' with Christians? You wouldn't, and that shows how wrong your logic is.

Muslims have no responsibility to denounce the lunatics who claim to be part of their religion. And even if they did, many of them are (which is about all you can ask for, there's no Muslim Pope). I do not expect Jews to denounce Israel's actions because Israel does not represent Judaism; I do not expect Christians to denounce the LRA or KKK, because they do not represent Christianity.

"when i went outside a bit later i did notice that every muslim i see looks more scared than angry and when i say hi and i smile i see surprise and relief."

I live in Europe and i know all about the hate and the discrimination against muslims,its not a new thing either.
That quote from my post was pretty important.
when im out i look around me,i see muslims every day.
None of them look or act angry (bar a few kids,but hey,what kid isnt angry sometimes)
Most of them look a bit worried,scared even.
I have made a point of saying hello when i pass a obvious muslim or arab in the street or in other situations since 9-11.
you know,just the normal polite human thing to do.
Why would the universal reaction i have been getting for 4 years now be one of relief?surprise? one of "he sees me as a human being"
I havent had a SINGLE negative reaction.NOT one.
i have had many smiles back,a few good conversations even.
it feels SO much better than hate
i cant understand why anyone would want to chose the other path

it might help to understand your perspective.

Good one. :thumbsup:

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Catholic Croatia that sided with the Nazis during WWII? The same Croatia that starting ethnic cleansing of the Serbs long before Milosevic got his own gig going?

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i'm not complaining about deleted posts,or attacks on me even when they get personal.I can handle the attacks and counter it with facts just fine.in some ways if the only thing someone can do to counter my words effectively is hit alert this is a "victory"
It does irk me though that i feel im posting to COUNTER this poisonous swill,yet some of my most pointed criticism get deleted for ostensibly the same thing i believe I'm "fighting"
i know what i say is uncomfortable and confrontational for some but i back it up with facts and links and quotes which is something the people that reply to my posts cant seem to muster.
I'm fine with people posting items that are uncomfortable for me or i would consider racist if i can counter that with facts from sources they find uncomfortable or facts considered "not conducive to bringing about a positive outcome". I know its uncomfortable i know its not conducive but they are facts and opinions and quotes that provide balance to a one sided argument with a monopoly on emotive language.
If people "step up to the plate" and say its "time to play hardball" don't go running to mommy when someone takes up that challenge and REALLY plays hardball using the same tactics and emotive imagery.
I dont see how people can have it both ways and keep a straight face.

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in fact they probably will.lol

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=157018


Was it something he said?

I wonder if they were actually 'Forever Freep'? I'm putting it down to the Kiss Of Death that happens here sometimes...

Violet...

and you most assuredly are.

Your shallow and mistaken impressions are pretty obvious. The US provides aid to Egypt's GOVERNMENT, and Islamic terrorists don't really care about that, that is simple. Britain IS insensitive to Muslim minorities, and it shouldn't be. Are you arguing for intolerance, because that's what it sounds like.

Furthermore, it is bigoted to say that Muslims cause the most damage to the world. There are innumerable non-Islamic terrorist organizations, and much more injustice is caused by disgusting military action, done by non-Muslims. Ignorance and murder is not confined to one group, and you have proven that yet again.

Also, terrorism has been perpetuated and created by our wrong actions, like supporting Israel, invading and destroying a sovereign country for NO REASON and oppressing the people, supporting terrorist groups and more. Of course, one should not justify and injustice with another injustice, but realize the effects of what has been done to Muslims.

The common bond is hate, and that is what the US, Israel and you are spreading. You receive what you give.

Your views are so parallel to the most intolerant groups in history it is frightening.

(on edit) BTW, you can scarcely call terrorists Muslim. If that is the case, then the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda and the KKK represents Christians; the IDF represents Jews. It is wrong to put them in the same group.

you have accused me of alot of things .... based on one sentence.

And yet it remains.So be it.

Now,you said the following "Britain IS insensitive to Muslim minorities".

Do you believe britain has oppressed and isolated their muslim community?

Do you believe this oppression and isolation has caused them to lash out at the british?

And do you think they had no choice and if britain had treated them better than this wouldnt have happened?

in the UK. Actually, America is pretty welcoming of Muslims compared to a lot of European countries (this is from my Muslim friend who's going to England). There is no doubt that this can lead to such occurrences (or at least contribute to it).

Generally, I believe that this isolation has caused the British to lash out against Muslims more than the other way around (obviously excluding the bombings).

If Britain treated Muslims better, then this could still have happened. However, I think there would be much less a chance of it happening, and if it did, it would be the work of international terrorists and not domestic terrorists (in other words, it would be carried out by agents from another country, not people living in England with friends and being connected to their community).

Also, realize that the IRA was doing the very same thing before, so look at that example for some insight to the problems and solutions (and know that Muslims are neither the first nor only group to have radicals do this kind of thing).

"Britain IS insensitive to Muslim minorities"

so big "fucking deal!"....if I recall correctly the US wasnt exactly sensitive to many of its immigrants over the years....irish, chinese, japanese, jews, vietnamese......nor was israel so nice to its immigrants

I cant recall any universal law by the galactic empire spelling out the sensitivies that a country must give to it immigrant population (or even its native one).

if any particular group has a grievence with the govt of a democratic country such as Britan there are various ways of producing change...that is the essence of a democracy, change is allowed via public pressure using certain rules.

just because a govt is "insensitive" gives nobody the right to go out and slaughter people nor are they to be excused

causes they're sensitivies have been hurt....the more i think about the more satirical it becomes....x has been insulted and is now sulking and hurt....so he goes out and kills people....and now that hes also dead, we feel better that he is now feeling better. So instead of going out and getting some pscho help....its ok to kill (weird value system you have there-stay away from my neighborhood)

Also, terrorism has been perpetuated and created by our wrong actions actually the terrorists disagree with you: those who blew up the red sea resort, the tamil tigers, taba, the actual list of terror activites NOT involving britian isnt small and has nothing to do with Britian...its just catching on and spreading as a "way of life" for the disaffected

that is what I am asking for. At the very least, Britain could accept their new immigrants and their culture (especially since the British Empire screwed up the Middle East), as well as give them a decent amount of respect any human being deserves.

The US has NOT been sensitive to its immigrants, and that is wrong. Do you think I'm trying to excuse the race riots in California against the Chinese and Japanese, or the ghettos in NYC that continue to exist, or the widespread hatred of anything German during WWI, or any other injustice that the US has obviously done to immigrants (not to mention its truly native population)? Of course not! I am just as incensed, if not more so, by those terrible travesties.

The fact that England has been insensitive EXPLAINS why the bombing most likely happened, but it does not excuse it at all (I don't ever think I did), just as a bombing does not excuse intolerant behavior, but may explain it. If Muslims were treated better, there would be a smaller chance of this sort of thing happening. That is not bowing to terrorists, it is giving people the treatment they should receive.

X is sulking and hurt, but he should not hurt anyone. However, those who hurt and isolated X do not have any justification for their actions. X hurts others because of his treatment, and is not justified for his/hers. I never said it was OK to kill at all, but I merely pointed out the reasons for such actions, and a way to better the situation.

Terrorism against the US and UK has been perpetuated by our wrong actions. The Tamil Tigers reacted to (what they claim as) unfair treatment in Sri Lanka, and other groups have done the same. It is very much similar in many instances.

it is gain.....asking for respect, is not the way to get it. One gets respect by ones actions. Britan does NOT have to accept the new immigrants and their culture (does that include honor killings? female mutilation?)...they may, as a result of Britans liberal laws keep PART of their culture, the part that does not conflict with Britans western democracy. Those aspects which do must be discarded. Britan is a western liberal democracy, that has every right to defend its liberal laws. Customs and culture which conflict with those liberties have no right to exist within England. If immigrants feel that, such a policy is "insensitive" then they have come to the wrong country.

the idea that a country has to be "sensitive" is absurd. A democratic country has laws to insure the working of its society and bends to public pressure to cause change....thats all. If the govt is not "sensitive" enough then its up to its citizens to cause change in a peaceful manner. The muslims have a problem with the way they are treated?..so, so did the spics, the dagos, the jews, the mormons, the indians,...and they all got over it didnt they?...they all made something of themselves....thats how it works in new environments, whether you a kid in a new school, a young lawyer in a new firm or a new immigrant....first you prove yourself...no one likes it when one gets "special help" as the mulsims seem to be demanding....



those terrorists who are "insulted" and their cheerleaders who agree with them dont seem to understand what democracies are all about. They are about taking responsability for ones actions

not being a cry baby about being "hurt"...you dont like something, then you have the right to attempt change, (and that doesnt include killing people)

oh and the "explaining" aspect...excuse me while i take a minute here.....when a palestenain is killed by the IDF do you also except the "explaining" of why a soldier may decide to shoot in a split second decision or are those explainaions "not allowed"

If you are suggesting that Muslims are beneath respect, then words fail me. Respect needs to be shown for those entering Britain. To say that they have to "earn it" is xenophobic, intolerant and unfair. Britons SHOULD accept their new neighbors, for if they do not, it shows a lack of concern, humanity and empathy.

I don't care if you say Britain is a utopian commune, it is still intolerant of many people who live within its borders, and that is wrong, whether the country is a "western liberal democracy", or a dictatorial oligarchy.

I think that you have a pretty bad vision of what is going on. Muslims have not been causing friction with British "freedoms", but it is the British who have been causing friction with Muslims themselves. There is a great amount of intolerance in England, and it is only because of prejudice.

For all your praise of "democracy", you fail to understand that democracies need to recognize the grievances and voice of EVERY PERSON, immigrant or otherwise. Democratic societies respect all groups within its jurisdiction. Those qualities are especially not shown in your opinions, nor are they shown in Britain's present environment.

Are you saying that kids have a "right" to bully a new kid? That is sick, and it explains some of your opinions. Also, your comment about generalizing Muslims as "cry baby(ies)" is absolutely ridiculous and wrong.

When an Israeli soldier murders a Palestinian, I deem it the fault of the Israeli government and policy, as well as the soldier, since Israel should not be occupying Palestine's land. That is the explanation: Israel occupies and oppresses Palestinians, and so such occurrences happen (Why is Israel occupying Palestine? The reason for this is: land and superiority). That comparison does not work. Also, realize that such a soldier is no more justified than a terrorist.

(By the way, the xenophobia in Britain is not THAT bad, but it is something that most Muslims do feel and something that is very significant).

just as anybody....whereas basic respect as humans is a requirement of democracies....as is shown to be quite evident as i understand no particluar group lives on the street and is starving in Briton....beyond that, it has to be earned, its is not given.

Of course people in societies in this day and age are intolerent of the "other" thats an expression of freedom.....the states is required to keep that intolerence to a minimum to protect against bodily harm, to educate against it, but by NO MEANs is a democratic state to interfer in a gross way...that is the opposite of being a liberal society, Freedom of belief (that the other guy is a moron) is a basic tenat of an open society.

wasnt it volair who said "I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."...thats a liberal democracy....

as far as britons accepting their new neighbors...all imperical evidence suggests that they do...dont these muslim immigrants go to work? pay taxs, go on vacations?...i havent heard of any being "hung" by their neighbors...what is acceptance?...who defines it? by living in enclaves (are there laws that put muslims in a single geographic area?)...they are aiding in creating their own problems?

if the individual person defines what is being "hurt" it and the state is required to act:
"democracies need to recognize the grievances and voice of EVERY PERSON,"...then you are making the state inoperable.

...since some muslim immigrants believe in honor killings...you know if your daughter goes out with the wrong guy its ok to slice her throat....this is a cultural norm...is that ok with you?..seems to me its pretty insensitive of the state to stop this cultural norm....

who decides which norms are acceptable and which arent..which hurt the "sensitivities and which dont?


I would suggest you do some reading on smaller liberal communities and the conflicts between identity/community and the individual:

no single society can answer the needs of all....look at your family...are ALL greivences answered all the time so that "no one is hurt?..no one sulks....hardly

oh yea:
Also, "realize that such a soldier is no more justified than a terrorist".....the comparison to me (IDF reserves) as a terrorist is one of the most pathetic pieces of ignorent crap that i read here:

I dont go looking to kill children, shoot up their busses on the way to school, I dont go to schools and massacre them, gun down palestenains at their weddings,.....thats what terrorists do......if I was "like them" then next time i'm overlooking the them as they enter israel for work..i would just open up with my machine gun....thats what terrorist do...or maybe instead of calling in some movement in the distance at night, instead of spending the next hour trying to figure out if its just some palestenians hoping the fence looking for work or some terrorists with bombs I should just order some artillary on the area...why waste so much battery time on my night scope?

no difference huh....your ignorence is showing...better yet, come on by and act as a human shield in Gaza to protect the simple palestenains from their islamic jihad or hamas....no difference huh?.....the second we leave gaza, so too will all idealistic westerners.....because they know damn well there is a difference between the IDF and the terrorists and they trust us with their lives....but they sure wont go up against the islamic jihad, hamas, hizballa to protect the civil rights of the secular palestenian.....would you? no difference huh?.....try putting your life on the line with that opinion (yes i get to say that).....i suspect your opinion would change in a microsecond

Muslims have not been accepted by Britain (nor other European countries). This is as clear as day. If you took the word of actual Muslims, maybe you'd see that.

"Acceptance" is respectful treatment, and I don't need to give you a color-coded scale to illustrate what that is. You know what is acceptable and what isn't (as in: very little prejudice and intolerance), don't play that pathetic game with me.

The state needs to look out for and recognize every voice, that is a democracy. I suggest you start up the Czarist Party if you want to exclude some groups from government.

All I'm asking for is a little respect and tolerance, not roads paved with gold. That is the minimum that societies should generally provide.

"Such a soldier" refers to many of your peers who have killed Palestinians for no reason. They ARE no more justified than a terrorist. Excuse me, but Israeli soldiers HAVE killed children on MANY occasions; they HAVE destroyed the homes of countless FAMILIES; the US even bombed a wedding in Iraq (a tangent but you get my point). Perhaps if your country didn't steal Palestinian land and destroy their livelihoods, their (obviously dangerous) trip to Israel would not be needed. They leave their destroyed homelands, homelands ravaged by your country, in search of the means to live, and you have the audacity to say that your country isn't terrorizing them?

I call people who murder innocents terrorists. I don't care if they do it from a helicopter, a roadblock, an A-10 or a bomb vest.

One of those "idealistic westerners" (is that an insult?) got run over by an Israeli tractor and was brutally killed on purpose. Yeah, she can really trust you guys :eyes:. What's the difference again?

yes israeli soldiers have killed for no "good reason"....i dont have to hide that fact that we have kids that have poor judgement, that ignore the rules, and that panic...but there is a very large gap between individual screwups vs a methodoloy/cult that looks for/plans to kill as many children as possible....I guess according to your view point the British police are now the same as terrorists. If you believe that then at least your being consistent....

as far as the land..that whats the war is all about...its in dispute....but disputes dont mean that one is excused of war crimes...or do you give the palestenains a pass on that....(because.....???????)

i believe a war crime is targeting civilians.....cant say I or the IDF does that as policy...at least not in any briefings I've been in (pelsar....grab some extra ammo for you and your unit...we're going after palestenian farmers today)

and those westeners?....have you any idea how many thousands are out here? how many times they "get in the way"?........like i said...try going up to a hamsnik and get in his way...throw a red paint balloon at him...(try it, I"m sure you'll love his reaction)

oh what was that?....got it, different value systems for different people.....his reaction is "natural"....whats a matter, he cant control his emotions/reactions? Why is that, is he a "lesser human being?...


"The state needs to look out for and recognize every voice, that is a democracy"

Do you know anything about how liberal societies work?...do you have any idea of whats involved in terms of government in hearing "every voice"...do you know about the various societies that have attempted such?....if you dont I have a book or two for you to read...try coming down to earth

btw what is the definition of being 'sensitive"...and i was very serious about "honor killings" being acceptable or not...Obviously to some muslims that is very important to them....enough for them to be willing to go to jail, both here in israel and to a lesser degree in Jordan. Its THAT important to them...so how is it that in Britan its not agreed to?

so who defines what is "sensitive enough"...

Acceptance" is respectful treatment....do you get spit on when you walk outside?..do you have to go down to the street an leave the sidewalk, when your "better" walks by? do you have to wear a sign pinned on your jacket saying your a muslim?

whats your definition of "respect"....not being stared at for dressing differently?....if so, tough shit..thats the right of every person in a society to look at someone who isnt dressing to the norms of that society....hell i stare at the funny priests clothing when i see them...and dont when i see an arab dressed in his traditional outfit.

I dont excude groups from having a say in a democratic govt....i believe each group has to earn the respect that they crave. No group should have more or less than any other group, thats what democracy is all about. The individual will NOT get all he wants in a democracy, such is life, nor will all groups get all they want as well, but that doesnt mean that those who get "less" at any particular time have right to demand more...they have the right to work for change, but not at the expense of others....and that includes the freedom of others to stare, insult and just be mean.....thats an integral part of a democracy.

its up to the immigrant groups to adapt to the new surroundings....its not the country that has to dilute its own culture to accommodate its guests.

one of the most famous wishes that came out of american immigrant parents was for their kids to be AMERICANS...that meant its culture, its language and customs...they adapted to their new land because they left the old, because the old was no good, and didnt drag it with them....and they didnt complain...they worked hard and sent their kids to college and were proud of that integration dispite the hurdles...thats what immigration is about....

i sound some like kind of cold asshole here....my relatives are all imigrants,some out of the camps, some were lucky and left before...some went to america/canada some to israel, some religious (hasid with the funny polish dress of the 18th century) some not.....

they all went through anti semetism of various stages in their new homes...and i cant recall ever once hearing a compaint...quite the contrary they were very appreciative of the countries that took them in...they knew the limitations, they didnt like the anti semstism they faced but they also understood from where they had come, and they didnt complain that it was the countries fault, the country that took them in....is that true from your perspective?

are your fellow muslims appreciative of Britan for letting them live in such a country, where they can scream Blair is an asshole and not get tossed in jail?..where there children will have choices that cant be found in Egypt/Pakistan/Iran?

where little girls can grow up with fear of having their throat cut for going out with a white Britan?....

i could go on forever about the liberties enjoyed in western democracies vs those in totalitarian govts and theocracies...and for those who cant see and appreciate them I admit to being short on patience.....

i look around at the world and see people live in fear of their own govt, or because the govt cant control its population in their own countries , zimbabwe, syria, iran, saudi arabia, PA,....and then these same people come to britan or france...AND COMPLAIN!.....do they live in fear of their new govt?.....perhaps now they do, but then how many muslim immigrants went to the police to warn them of what was happening right beneath their noses? how many are now going to risk their lives and spy on their fellow muslims to help get rid of the vermin within?..the police are going to need their help, their info..will they help dispite the discrimination?

Perhaps you should take a note from Ben Gurion, what he said during WWII: to fight the British for the restoration of aliya as if there were no war with Hitler, and to fight Hitler as if the British had not closed the doors of Palestine to the Jews.

fight for your rights to live in britan as respectable citizens and fight the terrorists within your community as if britan was not being "insensitive"..... (or something like that)

I didn't see this until now, so sorry my reply is delayed.

To me, you don't sound like an asshole; I hope I haven't either.

I think that your relatives have a right to expect better treatment from their countries. There is no excuse for prejudice, and as long as people do not speak out, anti-Semitism will continue to inflict Europe as it has for such a long time. I think that there is a responsibility for the country taking the immigrants to treat them just as anyone else (it's a little rude to egg the house of a person that just moved in the neighborhood). Living in a country is no free ticket for discrimination against anyone.

I'm not Muslim, but I specifically know a Muslim who has gone to the UK and I've heard it's a lot worse there than in America.

It's culture shock more than governmental shock. Also, racial profiling is pretty widespread. If you live in Iran as an Iranian, if you don't do anything really "bad", you're fine; if you live in Britain/Europe as an Iranian, you will face prejudice. What worth is free speech if you're worried about being harassed by the police or having your place of worship vandalized? That is the basis of the complaints. Also, realize that the Civil Rights Protesters were, in essence, complaining.

Muslim girls can date whites, it just depends on the family. However, as a personal example, I know of a Muslim father who refused to have a peer student tutor his daughter because he was Hindu. This is an extreme example, and it is different for each situation/family. Remember, honor killings were very rare in Iraq, but after our invasion, they are commonplace. Also, many cultures do similar things (husbands need to be baptized in a certain church to take part in a wedding and so on).

There are really no terrorists in the Muslim community as much as there are no terrorists in the Christian community. There may be hardliners, but the terrorists are insane sadists who aren't even a part of the Muslim community. There is no extra responsibility on the part of Muslims. It is impossible to weed out the terrorists in such a community, this endeavor would be like me trying to weed out secret KKK members in PA (I don't live there, but there's a strong KKK presence there).

bottom line I dont agree to any predjudice...i dont like it nor do i agree to it...but at the sametime its here its has to be dealt with on a realistic level....its a constant fight, not a zim bang and were done...

hence the solution is not via laws...its via the communities constantly fighting it..as each new generation grows up it is to be educated they should grow up with not just the education of equality but the actual idea and experience of meeting the "other"....

and i suspect more liberal societies have the irony of being more biased as people are free to express themselves as your examples have shown....

as far as the responsability of the muslim communities to weed out the bad...their responsability is no more than any other citizen...but they have the advantage that a jewish boy from scotland doesnt have.....they'll understand the language and culture..they'll be able to recognize the potential terrorists, they'll be able to reconize when something is "out of wack"

and if they do this....and they succeed, they will have provided to the British society something invaluable that may very well be part of the culture...an moment to look back with pride for the collective British country...just as many black, indians, japanese look back at their contributions to america during WWII with pride... a quick google shows quite a bit imagy with just that aspect of it....

and its those collective moments that change a countries collective view of many of its subcultures....not always there no guarantee....

in a lot of immigrant situations. I do think that immigrant groups CAN help their conditions, but it is difficult. I also think that the people of the country should be respectful to the immigrant population, this is actually a must; the people living there have more power to stop discrimination than immigrants do.

Yes, Muslims can understand the language and perhaps culture better, but I just don't think that it is really healthy to expect that much. I don't think Irish people living in England could do that much about IRA bombings. Same thing with Basques in 'Spanish' Spain. Arab civil groups have uniformly denounced terrorism, but to do so religiously is almost impossible (although Ayatollah Sistani did kind of save Najaf from total destruction and work out a peace agreement in Iraq; so no matter how much of a hardliner you might think he is I don't know if he is or not, he did do something good about one instance) when you consider the fact that there is no central structure to Islam. There was some group called the Jewish Defense League or something, and they did a few illegal stuff (I think an assassination or something like that), and I think it would be hard to get all the groups of Jews in the world to denounce such action, and I also think it is unreasonable for Jews to be expected to stop any type of similar occurrence.

Although many Natives, blacks, latinos and Japanese look back with pride on their military service, I am more than outraged at the injustice they suffered and continue to suffer. There is no excuse to put a group through the misery that we have put them through. I cannot help but shake my head when Native Americans join the military that almost wiped out their entire culture; I cannot help but feel perplexed when blacks and latinos fight and die for a country that treats them as second-class citizens - or worse. With the onset of Japanese economic boom, the Nisei (Japanese-American) population has probably been able to find the treatment that I think every minority deserves NOW, although one must not forget the pain and agony we put them through. This cannot be justified in any way; and the idea of "rite of passage" is a cruel one, in that no people need prove themselves to be "as good" as another before getting basic respect.

Military service is one way out of others that minorities can improve respect, but realize that WWII didn't bring down segregation, African American organization, will, defiance and power did.

I think the power lies in the hands of the majority to bring about respect. There are things a minority/immigrant population can do, but not nearly as much.

Oh, I almost forgot, check this out: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/4690285.stm

(edited: deleted unintentional italics)

that stuff is great...so too when israel has israeli arabs as their soccer champs or win in the song contests.....it one of many ways to move the minorities up the ladder...but is not enough...btw after wwII it was the US army that first integrated....and in the IDF the army serves as the great integrator as everybody tends to meet and work with everybody else. In fact if you do want an example of how immigrants have been both succesfully an not israel is a fascinating experiment as its basis came as socialist/communistic with the goal of everyone having a say in the govt...the result is actual paralysis...the system rather than give everyone a voice is held hostage to the few....

still all levels have made it to the upper echelons of politics..yet discrminiation still exists for those same groups....

but I think this expains it:
"I cannot help but shake my head when Native Americans join the military that almost wiped out their entire culture; I cannot help but feel perplexed when blacks and latinos fight and die for a country that treats them as second-class citizens"

when you understand why...you'll get a better understanding of socities and their workings....
rites of passage....i'm afraid you'll have to accept their existance..they dont have to be cruel, but they do exist and all new groups and individuals go through them..all the time....also, values have changed over time.....much of it due to americas immigrant population...

as far as "arabs denoucing terrorism" ....thats fine..but these are strange and violent times....the british muslims are in a unique position to really do something, something that no one else can....were talking about the extremists in their neighborhood that will ruin not only their lives but change the character of the whole country....more than that if they dont do anything ..the discrimnation will only get worse. True they are caught between the rock and the hard place..but this has happend before...

if you want an example...the jewish hagana would both chase down arrest and hand over to the british some of their extreme colleges, it can be done, but it takes lots of guts an belief...and i dont think that the "jews" had anything over the muslims...except perhaps a leader (ben gurion) who was wise enough to recognize the problem of the extremists and rein them in.....

"...honor killings were very rare in Iraq, but after our invasion, they are commonplace."

Why are they commonplace now

when countries have more "liberal" laws (not the facist dictatorship...) the weirdos and extrmists tend to come out of woodwork..they are no longer afraid to express themselves.

(ever see a gay pride parade in Iran?)....honor killings are part of the arab/islamic culture usually tolerated by arab regimes (jordan for instance...almost eliminated in israel).

iraq no longer has the heavy hand of the saddam....so people are now expressing themselves in various ways...if honor killings are up, this would probably explain it.

always amazes me how repressive,reactionary regimes like Iran and Iraq are overlooked or even given a free pass here cause 'thats just the way it is'.:shrug:

And seeing as how this is the Israel/Palestine forum, despite recent attempts to turn it into something else, most people come here to discuss the Israel/Palestine conflict and tend to discuss other issues in the forums they belong in. I remember being told off in no uncertain terms by one poster a fair while ago for daring to bring up East Timor in this forum...

Violet...

PS "... kind of cold asshole..."
no, you sound very logical

Israeli soldiers have tried to kill and have killed people who were known to be civilians (even someone standing in front of a bulldozer) on many occasions (one occasion is too many, by the way). Civilians have been targeted, whether through IDF Soldiers or the destruction of homes, they have felt the purposeful ire of the occupation. If a terrorist bombing in Iraq targets US Soldiers, but ends up killing many civilians, that is a horrible terrorist bombing. Same thing here. Israel has had full-blown assaults on refugee camps full of REFUGEES because they wanted "revenge" for a terrorist bombing. That is more than enough to figure out the severity of Israel's actions.

Well, one person "got in the way", and was crushed alive for it. They are trying to oppose the IDF because it is an army that shouldn't be there. When terrorists start stealing Palestinian land wholesale, as well as destroying their homes, I would expect the same actions from those activists.

On a side note, I have no doubt that you do your job to the best of your ability, and that you do not target or lack concern for Palestinian civilians, but that is unfortunately not the case for much of IDF's actions.

In America, Muslims have been able to be in our society quite well, and it is mostly considered a great success story, as they do work and go to college quite frequently (The top 5 or so finalists in our national spelling bee were Indian, the immigrants here are working 10x harder than most kids). Immigrants don't need to discard their culture, they merely need to put it in another environment. To my knowledge, the only problem with Muslims in America is Americans attacking them. In Europe, this is not the case, and Muslims are isolated more than those in America/Canada. This leads to great problems, and if nothing else, demonstrates intolerance for the people of those nations.

I am quite aware of honor killings, and I think governments should pursue such acts just as any other. However, this is only one thing which obviously conflicts with society. Staring at someone who is dressed outside the norm isn't really what people are talking about, it is discrimination. By the way, honor killings are now epidemic in Iraq after the US' invasion, while before, they were very rare.

No matter what a group wants, tolerance should not be something that needs to be asked for or demanded. Acceptance should not be thrown to the wayside for the benefit of people's prejudice. That is respect.

Also, in the 1930's, when the US Government went to the Mid-West to help agriculture and rural communities, they routinely needed German interpreters because the immigrants were not able to speak English, they didn't need to, as they kept to their own German-speaking community. Ethnic enclaves in NYC caused ethnic tension and in some cases, violence. The immigrants who came before the Arabs (and other Muslims) have not assimilated so easily as you say. It is also worth noting that although they "became" American, those families still eat Italian food for dinner, they go to wakes (an Irish tradition), root for their country-of-origin's soccer team...the roots are definitely still there, and that is a very good thing.

yes i find eating druze food, seeing a festival of iraqi jews.....quite interesting and see no reason for them to give up parts of their culture...as in america..little chinatown etc...

assimilation may not be easy, but it is essential for a liberal country to continue its liberal ways...liberalism may defend itself against "illberal customs and ignorence"

I am not saying that there isnt predujudice and bias against the muslims...i am saying that a large part of the responsability lies with the muslims themselves...its irrelevant if they are the cause or not....they get the shit, therefore its up to them to initiate changes.....I do not know the details but the idea of a govt not being "sensitive enough" is absurd. Perhaps the citizens are not sensitive enough...so?...then its up to the muslims to do something about it.

what is the actual problem?..are they integrating or are they living in enclaves and refusing to?...if thats the case then they have no business in England or Europe. First generation I understand probably cant..but their kids?....and their kids?....I recall how the vietnamese immigrants to the US were so proud of their first Harvard Grad...they saw it as a step toward integration...do the muslims have that attitude?

Europe may very well be biased against muslims.... i hear that they arent too nice to jews either, and there are complaints, and infact it could be argued that the holocaust probably cant be beat as far as hating a particular group goes.....yet as things are relative i dont hear the jews talking about lack of "sensitivty"....but they are trying their best to make changes...though I would wonder if its even possible. I get the impression that europe still thinks its in the middle ages with nobility and serfs...

Bottom line...its up to the muslims to make the changes, its up to them to integrate....oh and those germans of the 1930's who didnt speak english?...their sons had one helluva a record during WWII fighting their relatives in europe.....they knew why they immigrated... the japanese those tossed in the camps had volunteers to fight the germans, and became one of the most decorated units in WWII..the blacks?....one of their fighter squadrens when protecting bombers...never lost one...they were "requested by the white bomber crews...and they new what discrimination was far more than any muslim (the US army was segregated). The native americans?....used their own native language on the radio...germans never could break it...I could go on, each immigrant group in america used their special knowledge to aid their new country...even those whom had massive discrimination against them....

thats what immigrants do when (including the blacks/indians) ....they fight for it against the facist dictatorships that they left.

the muslims have it no better or wose than other immigrants... they should be waving the british flag/french flag with pride and volunteering to rid the community of the terrorists and those that inspired them....perhaps thats part of the problem?

and since this is I/P...i'm nothing special interms of my attitude toward my neighbors.........i actually represent the vast majority of the reserves who are today by default-volunteers......and were not looking to hurt anyone.....but black and white descriptions have no real meaning out here, were in a constant gray area attempting to balance past events with future events.....kind of impossible

SHOULD be accepted and tolerated by the surrounding environment. That is not quite the case in the UK.

Muslims are pretty discriminated against, and not because of honor killings. It is because of prejudice against their entire culture, and not just one rare act. There is a difference between crime and culture, and one needs to be tolerated while the other needs to be prosecuted just as any other similar act.

Muslims in America are integrating well. It is the resistance from European nations that is the problem (the virtual Nazi party in France got an obscene amount of the vote - more than 20% I believe, because of hatred of immigrants). Muslims do have a lot of pride over their achievements, which is significant; why would you think they would not? By the way, the African Americans that you said had shown their mettle in WWII cannot find such results due to continued subjugation (don't believe me? Travel to the inner city, you'll see the skin get darker as the houses get worse).

Yes, there is some intolerance against Jews, and this is just as unacceptable. I would call it a lack of sensitivity on some parts of the European population (and with other radical elements: outright hatred). It is no different, but I think intolerance against Muslims is worse and more widespread than intolerance against Jews (if you think otherwise, let me know). Every group deserves respect, that is the bottom line.

You fail to understand a few things: Those Japanese were treated like sub-humans, and they had every right to spit in the face of any American who dare ask their help in WWII. The Navajo also should have said "screw you" to any American who had the audacity to even suggest their involvement in any American war (just FYI, the Navajo language was used in the Pacific Theater, not in Europe). And no matter how many blacks served heroically during WWII, they still came back to a country where they could not drink from the same water fountain as a white person; even now, African Americans are languishing in poverty-stricken ghettos, as well as facing renewed obstacles. Also, realize that Native Americans are NOT immigrants...WHITES ARE. How comforting, the Japanese go to the US and get so much better treatment than their "fascist dictatorship": concentration camps! That is not a rite of passage, that is disgusting treatment that can never be rationalized, now or then.

Furthermore, Arabs have been doing similar things; the Iraqi army, although pitiful and hopeless, is full of Arabs. It is sad that we have pretty much signed their death certificate by putting them in such a messed up situation.

Muslims have no responsibility to wave any flag more than anyone else. Were Irish people in this country expected to wave the Union Jack during the IRA bombings? Are blacks supposed to apologize for the Watts Riots, while waving the flag which has oppressed them for countless generations? Bullsh*t. They are not responsible for the actions of lunatics just as much as you are not responsible for IDF soldiers who murder civilians in cold blood (do you see me asking you to wave a Palestinian flag? No, you don't).

understand a few things: Those Japanese were treated like sub-humans, and they had every right to spit in the face of any American who dare ask their help in WWII. The Navajo also should have said "screw you" to any American who had the audacity to even suggest their involvement in any American war (just FYI, the Navajo language was used in the Pacific Theater, not in Europe). And no matter how many blacks served heroically during WWII, they still came back to a country where they could not drink from the same water fountain as a white person; even now, African Americans are languishing in poverty-stricken ghettos, as well as facing renewed obstacles.

(btw i know indians are the natives...i was just typing fast..nor can we really say blacks were immigrants...)

but the point is that those groups who were spit on....still volunteered, still fought for the country they believe in...thats my point. Nothing was handed to them on a silver platter and yet, they still believed enough in their country to fight and die for it....and that is the way immigrants should act toward their new country. They understood where they came from and why there were in America and hence they volunteered, i repeat that since you dont seem to understand why would they fight....because they believed in the promise of america....good for them!

of course there are problems....as there are in every country...but if someone comes to another country that country is doing them the favor of letting them in...then they do owe that country something....and yes they do owe that country to wave the flag. They can protest bad conditions work for change...but they still owe that country for letting them in..they owe the citiizens of that country for paying for their housing and other aspects that that country gives them.

and thats what it comes down to...change does not come easy, the muslims may be spit upon in europe...which simply means they've got some work to do to convince their fellow citizens that they are worthy of their new found citizenship...it may not be a utopia but thats the way the real world works for the newbies...be it in cyberspace, the classroom or the country...no difference...and given the bombings and knifings....I hope europe hasnt passed the point of no return cause finding terrorists in 3rd generation brits is going to be very difficult without help from their comrads...and that is also their responsability.....


and as far as the blacks go..having worked in downtown detroit I got a pretty good feel of their situation.....

Those groups that fought for the country that exploited and hurt them: many of them are still not as well off as they should be. Licking the boot of the person who kicks you is not the way to go. They found that the promise of America was thievery and injustice. Blacks died for the US, and have gotten nothing in return. No matter how much the Navajo helped the US, Natives are not getting their land. Latinos are still racially profiled, treated badly and seen as "lawn care workers". The promise of America hasn't been fulfilled at all, and it needs to be. It seems they believed in a mirage.

The thing is this: Europe colonized the world, and then cries about people from those countries going to the country that oppressed and used them. They should welcome new people to their country, it is not an exclusive club. People owe others nothing but decent treatment.

I will not stand for anyone being spat upon, and I fully reject the argument that the group merely needs to "pay its dues" to get a sliver of respect (blacks have given more than their dues, and not much has changed. I've heard that in DC, half of blacks have been through the criminal justice system; in Trenton, you can literally see the skin get darker as the city gets worse; Camden, Newark, Jersey City: all cities in NJ that are horrible, and are very African American).

Read "Let America Be America Again", by Langston Hughes. You'll really like it.

and even if it was for a split second it wont be after that..infact make is simpler..show me any small group of people that can get along perfectly for over 20 years?....let alone hundreds with a changing population and changing values

your view seems to be that countries can make a perfect civiliazation where peoples human value dont seem to exist....show me any group of people where the newebies dont have to "pay their dues" in one form or another?...doesnt exist.....you may reject it, but you wont find an alternative on this earth that involves people......(do you have one?) And if you cant find a smaller organization that doesnt require such a thing, however small and simple, whatever it may be, you can hardly expect a large organization to be different

as far as the indians, blacks, Chinese, jews, germans etc all who fought for america despite getting treated unfairly...seems most dont agree with you as America as a society is very strong.....their kids and their kids are part of america the society which is not indanger of collapse or internal strife.

Blacks?....the real question is why have the blacks kept themselves seperate while others, such as the vietnamese, cambodians, palestenians etc all all have gotten ahead. I can remember my friend be called an oriel cookie...black on the outside white inside. Meaning his friendship with me cost him his contacts with his own society.....

blaming discrimination based on color is far too simplistic.....to a certain degree the black society has rejected the white one, makeing their own strong subculture which to a degree is based on that rejection....examples being the fact that blacks hi up in the govt not being looked upon as role models....

america the mirage?....not to my relatives who came with nuthing but hope...not to millions of people who came to america...before there was civil rights before there was child labor laws, women suffrage etc...and they kept on coming....kept improving america and they're still coming and still working, modifying america. America is a work in progress...that mirage is not an illusion....its been a dream come true to millions. Its not perfect and life isnt fair, there is still much to fix up as things change.....but it remains one of the few countries that offer a poor imigrant the chance to improve his life as well as affect the world...i could list the immigrants to america that came with little and have affected the world if you would like.....its an amazing list

and some of those people were racially profiled and treated badly...but that didnt stop them, and their accomplishments helped eliminate those racial slurs....

the "cry of insensitivy is the cry for a facist dictatorship, a paternal government that herd the people into one line of thinking. Liberal democracies thrive on the give and take, the various opinions, the emotions...thats what their essence is and its that which causes change. When you run to the govt to "take care of some opinion that is "insulting" you turning away from a liberal democracy and turning toward a dictatorship that will tell people what they can and cannot say...and that is simply wrong (note a line must however be drawn when the words lead directly to killing...)

it seems you would rather have people 'taken care of " by a strong govt than a more open liberal one that has more give and take, that puts responsability and freedom upon the citizens and less upon the govt........guess I'm simply more liberal than you are....

from both black and latino perspective, due to my heritage.

When we look at the USA, we look for what it can be, not for what it is or has been. The "struggle" is to bring it closer to the former.

we actually agree on something.....because I couldnt have said it better.....

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Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. - Karl Rove (no Karl we should just let him run free and make video's)

and who wanted to "offer therapy and understanding" ??

so lets play hardball

were not killing enough people, to show people its wrong to
kill people ...

WW-III my ass

oh by the way have we caught Osama, so he can be Indicted ?

Bush is a failure ! ya go ahead delete this

an effective, well thought out policy.