Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

In Defense of the Conspiratorial Worldview

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU
 
Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 12:58 AM
Original message
In Defense of the Conspiratorial Worldview
First, let's use our friend Dictionary.com to define the term "Skeptic".

–noun
1. a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.

American Heritage Dictionary:

n : someone who habitually doubts accepted beliefs

And now the term "Conspiracy"

2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more

persons; plot.

American Heritage Dictionary:

1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.


Conspiracies happen all the time. Additionally, our government, whether we like it or not has done some very bad things, and been involved in many conspiracies. There is no reason to believe that all persons in "public service" have a deep and abiding respect for human life. History does not prove this out. In fact, many of them go their to enrich themselves, and their own - check your revolving door and pay to play legislation.

How about conspiracies here at home? "Unlawful, treacherous" plans, kept on the low, that had direct negative effects on Americans? Happens all the time.

In the '20s Edward Bernays, Sigmund Freud's nephew, brought Freud's ideas to America, to control and
manipulate the masses. He pioneered the process they now call "Demand creation". Using Freud's
techniques they learned they could make people want things they didn't need. They wanted to create a
docile public of "consumers" rather than active "citizens."

This was a conspiracy, for all intents and purposes, to subvert our system of government and our way
of life, approved by the U.S. government at that time. They intended to engineer the consent of the
governed by psychology-based, well placed, and extremely well designed propaganda. It Worked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/century_of_the_self.shtml


There were the Tuskegee Experiments

http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/jul/tuskegee/


Eugenics, between 1929 and 1968 there was a compulsory sterilization program in much of the United States for the feeble-minded, mentally ill, persons suffering from epilepsy and generally black and poor people. Is this not a conspiracy? Granted it was the law at the time.

http://againsttheirwill.journalnow.com/


Iran-Contra was of course a conspiracy, but kind of cliche to bring up in these circles.


The Gulf of Tonkin incident was a conspiracy - a lie concocted to get us to escalate the Vietnam War. Thousands died in this conflict to no good end.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2261


COINTELPRO was designed to neutralize dissent in America, and keep tabs on "troublemakers" like

Martin Luther King, Jr. This was again, an attempt to subvert the system - to quash dissent and usurp the authority of the governed. We are ruled by consent are we not?

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm


The U.S. Government has used psychochemical weapons like BZ and LSD on human subjects - some on American human subjects.

http://www.thememoryhole.com/mil/bz/reports.htm

Operation Paperclip was a conspiracy to defy international law, and bring Nazi scientists into the United States, erasing their histories, and changing their identities, assimilating them into the fabric of American governmental and intellectual life.

http://www.counterpunch.org/thieme08222003.html

Which in part brought us MK Ultra - which involved much more than LSD.

http://fpiarticle.blogspot.com/2005/03/meet-first-president-of-world.html

http://www.archive.org/details/tmdg - Watch this Video


PNAC is a conspiracy. It's a group of men gathering together to circumvent the law regarding aggressive war and change our way of life for the worse.


The attack on Iraq was the result of a conspiracy, again, a group of men circumvented U.S. law regarding aggressive war. Thousands die, as a result.


When members of the DIA saw the detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib, a conspiracy was undertaken to ensure their silence. Fortunately, it didn't work like they planned.

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/18779prs20041207.html


Members of the Federal Government (via EPA) conspired to deceive the public regarding the quality of
the air at Ground Zero. Hundreds of people will needlessly die as a result.


I could go on for a long time listing things here, but the point is made.

Personally, I exist because someone in my family had a conspiratorial world view. They had read Mein Kamph, and saw Hitler moving - he had not yet entered France and the world in general did not know about the concentration camps.

They did what most people would consider a very strange thing. They sent my mother as an infant off to live with friends in Switzerland and started figuring out how they were going to hide all the folks who could not pass for gadjo/gadje in the family. They were paranoid. Then again, can you imagine trying to hide a screaming infant from the Nazis? After the Germans invaded, the SS brought my grandmother (Irish/Scottish married into Sinti) in once a week for questioning, they came to the house, but not one of our well hidden relatives landed in a concentration camp. So I am here typing this diatribe today.

The conspiratorial world view is not nearly as dangerous as the world view that "that could never happen here, not to us" or those people who refuse to believe, regardless of the evidence at hand, anything that didn't come out of the mouth of a governmentally approved authority. The worst that happens with the former is that you have some guy out there with a weird idea of the world - OTOH, think about what happens when people blindly accept and do as they're told.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. One can't defend something one doesn't understand.
Edited on Thu Aug-31-06 02:09 AM by greyl
It may have helped if the OP first looked up some definitions and explanations of "worldview", "conspiratorial worldview", and "conspiracism". Nobody on the planet denies that conspiracies exist. Nevertheless, the OP attacks that strawman vehemently, while never providing one reason to either adopt or keep a conspiratorial worldview.

The appeal to emotion of mentioning Nazi concentration camps, very sadly misses the point that Hitler was acting upon his own conspiratorial worldviews. It didn't require a conspiratorial worldview to see what the Nazis were up to, it only required specific knowledge and not being under the spell of that worldview.

There is no defense of a conspiratorial worldview.


Excerpt from Conspiracism as a Flawed Worldview
by Chip Berlet

People with unfair power and privilege generally try to hold onto that unfair power and privilege. Sometimes they make plans that are not publicly announced. Sometimes they engage in illegal plots. Real conspiracies have been exposed throughout history. History itself, however, is not controlled by a vast timeless conspiracy. The powerful people and groups in society are hardly a "secret team" or a tiny club of "secret elites." The tendency to explain all major world events as primarily the product of a secret conspiracy is called conspiracism. The antidote to conspiracism is Power Structure Research based on some form of institutional, systemic or structural analysis that examines race, ethnicity, gender, sexual identity, class and other factors that are used to create inequality and oppression. We do not criticize conspiracism because we want to shield those with unfair power and privilege, but because we believe that conspiracism impedes attempts to build a social movement for real social justice, economic fairness, equality, peace, and democracy.

___________________

Conspiracism as part of an anti-regime populist movement works in a different fashion. Populist conspiracism sees secret plots by tiny cabals of evildoers as the major motor powering important historical events. Conspiracism tries to figure out how power is exercised in society, but ends up oversimplifying the complexites of modern society by blaming societal problems on manipulation by a handful of evil individuals. This is not an analysis that accurately evaluates the systems, structures and institutions of modern society. As such, conspiracism is neither investigative reporting, which seeks to expose actual conspiracies through careful research; nor is it power structure research, which seeks to accurately analyze the distribution of power and privilege in a society. Sadly, some sincere people who seek social and economic justice are attracted to conspiracism. Overwhelmingly, however, conspiracism in the U.S. is the central historic narrative of right-wing populism.

much more: http://www.publiceye.org/top_conspire.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. That's nothing but semantical slight of hand.
Edited on Thu Aug-31-06 01:25 PM by mhatrw
You are forced to admit the ubiquitousness of already historical proven conspiracies, but you wish to dismiss any and all speculation about current or as yet unproven conspiracies as crazy talk.

Who benefits from your semantical games other than those we have extremely good reasons to suspect of malfeasance?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm not convinced that you actually read it
because if you had, I don't think you'd say "you wish to dismiss any and all speculation about current or as yet unproven conspiracies as crazy talk."

That is such an aggregious misrepresentation of the post and the article it links to, that I suspect you either didn't read it, didn't read it for comprehension, or are just unwilling to participate in the give and take of an authentic discussion about the issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. The phrase "conspiracy theory" has a negative connotation
with the public, unfortunately. It translates to unfounded suspicions and most people immediately dismiss a story that has this attached, because it also translate to "will never be solved". People don't take it literally, unfortunately, and they don't consider the official version to be what it is; a conspiracy theory. There has been a lack of proof in what we have been told. There also is a lot of secrecy. Why? What possible national security use would all this secrecy have? There was no investigation of the actual Pentagon crash and the videos are withheld from view. There are obvious anomalies on all levels of this story , yet people think that if the government says something then it is the same as scientific proof.
I think those of us who are questioning it are skeptics of the official story. I don't know what the skeptic's forum calls themselves skeptics, they seem to believe everything that the corporate media says.
Also I do think there is a lot of cointelpro involved in the 9-11 disinformation. I remember reading that what has happened would happen. People would come up with ridiculous stories and mix it with the truth, then the ridiculous part would be proved not true and everything would go along with it. 911 skeptics would form factions and get into fights with each other. It is weird watching that happen and I think there probably is a cointelpro force behind it. So, I take everything with a grain of salt and trust my own eyes.

I think your grandparents were smart not paranoid!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Your first point sounds familiar.
Are you remembering this post by someone who frequents the Skepticism, Science, and Pseudoscience Group?

If so, great.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
29. No.eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well said!
It is our duty as citizens to demand proof of anything and everything that our government tells us. This is particularly true in respect to 9/11 because we had such tragic loss of life. Until our current government sees fit to provide us with with the proof we need (and demand), I view questioning the events of 9/11 as our patriotic duty.

KO has inspired me. Thank goodness we have someone like him on our side!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2016805

PS: Sinti...thank you for posting this thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
5. Thanks for this Sinti. I didn't realize you're Gypsy (or should I say
Edited on Thu Aug-31-06 08:01 AM by lulu in NC
"Rom"?) Yes, your grandparents had a very healthy skepticism. A healthy dose of skepticism is, to my way of thinking, the only way to view ANY government. It's certainly better than going through life with a "happy happy joy joy" outlook. People in power can't be trusted--too many are corrupted by that power and influence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Nope, Roma is a different tribe
Rom is actually the word for "man". In Europe there are three tribes, Sinti, Roma, and Kalderash. I'm Sinti. Gypsy is a case of mistaken identity, long, long ago the European people thought these nomadic people came from Egypt - so they called them Little Egyptians or Gypsies, and the name kind of stuck. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. Thanks for that--interesting! I won't say "Rom" again, but "Roma"--I knew
that centuries ago, people thought Gypsies came from Egypt, but I've read Gypsies originate from somewhere north of India. Don't know if it's true. I know this is a bit OT from your original topic, which is recognizing signs of increasing hostility in a culture gone hate-mad. I worry, seriously, about something like that happening here. The level of hate speech, in the media, is becoming incredible. When some segments of the citizenry are being encouraged to hate other segments, who knows what will happen?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. I don't worry about the hate speech too much. It's a method they use
to keep people from noticing the real abuse they're getting from those in power. If you can keep the "little people" fighting amongst themselves, you don't have to worry about them coming after you. This kind of social control has probably been at work in some form since the time of the pharaohs.

I really think we need to try and make people understand how their strings get pulled, though, and put a stop to the nonsense. When the regular folks stop blaming/hating/fearing each other they'll start to look up at those who gain wealth and power on their backs, and gleefully spill their children's blood to further enrich themselves. It's some kind of obscene gluttony they suffer from - I mean, just how much money and power do you need?

It could get really scary if people really realized how little value they have to these monsters, IMO.

BTW, no one that I know of is offended by the term Rom. It's acceptable. If the words "criminal" and/or "life unworthy of life" are not used in the description of us, we're generally pretty happy AFAIK. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. That's ironic
I really think we need to try and make people understand how their strings get pulled, though, and put a stop to the nonsense. When the regular folks stop blaming/hating/fearing each other they'll start to look up at those who gain wealth and power on their backs, and gleefully spill their children's blood to further enrich themselves.


Conspiracism prevents both A & B.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
democraticinsurgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent Post!
I especially love this point:

The conspiratorial world view is not nearly as dangerous as the world view that "that could never happen here, not to us" or those people who refuse to believe, regardless of the evidence at hand, anything that didn't come out of the mouth of a governmentally approved authority. The worst that happens with the former is that you have some guy out there with a weird idea of the world - OTOH, think about what happens when people blindly accept and do as they're told.


Let's keep this moving. A combination of positive energy like this and the ignore button should make the dungeon more inhabitable than it has been of late.

;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. That point is very dull, actually.
It's based on severely fallacious logic which, not-ironically, is central to conspiracism.

The conspiratorial world view is not nearly as dangerous as the world view that "that could never happen here, not to us" or those people who refuse to believe, regardless of the evidence at hand, anything that didn't come out of the mouth of a governmentally approved authority.


That's clearly a straw argument constructed upon a false dichotomy.

Where in that point is the mention of ever vigilant critical thinking? Nowhere. No critical thinker would suggest that it's best to believe everything the government, or anyone says without confirming the veracity of it for oneself. That would be an appeal to authority, and it's one of the easiest logical fallacies to spot, especially by true skeptics. By the same token, no critical thinker would suggest that ones worldview should be filtered through conspiracism.

Critical Thinkers

Are honest with themselves, acknowledging what they do not know, recognizing their limitations, and being watchful of their own errors.

Regard problems and controversial issues as exciting challenges.

Strive for understanding, keep curiosity alive, remain patient with complexity and ready to invest time to overcome confusion.

Set aside personal preferences and base judgments on evidence, deferring judgment whenever evidence is insufficient. They revise judgments when new evidence reveals error.

Are interested in other peoples's ideas, so are willing to read and listen attentively, even when they tend to disagree with the other person.

Recognize that extreme views (whether conservative or liberal) are seldom correct, so they avoid them, practice fairmindedness, and seek a balanced view.

Practice restraint, controlling their feelings rather than being controlled by them, and thinking before acting.


Uncritical Thinkers

Pretend they know more than they do, ignore their limitations, and assume their views are error-free.

Regard problems and controversial issues as nuisances or threats to their ego.

Are impatient with complexity and thus would rather remain confused than make the effort to understand.

Base judgments on first impressions and gut reactions. They are unconcerned about the amount or quality of evidence and cling to earlier views steadfastly.

Are preoccupied with self and their own opinions, and so are unwilling to pay attention to others' views. At the first sign of disagreement they tend to think, "How can I refute this?"

Ignore the need for balance and give preference to views that support their established views.

Tend to follow their feelings and act impulsively.

-Vincent Ryan Ruggiero's opinion
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
democraticinsurgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I heartily disagree
Unfortunately there is a large % that cannot and will not consider that their goverment could be evil. This is the problem with stolen elections and many other "conspiracies" outside of 9/11. People refuse to use critical thinking skills because of the dissonance created. It's not a straw man, not at all.

That is the OP's point.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. A large %? Can you describe them for me?
Are you talking about the repukes who hated Clinton, the Democrats who hate bush, or the Libertarians who hate everybody? ;)

Sorry, but I don't think you've provided a solid argument against my assertions of fallacious logic in the OP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
democraticinsurgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. this is what the ignore button is for
and i will now use it for the first time. i will not waste my time arguing with you over stupid stuff.

we all know there is a huge mass of uncritical thinkers. who knows what the % is. who cares, really.

what i care about is open and honest debate not vitriolic BS.

see ya.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. lol Amazing, simply amazing. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. You're being grossly unfair to greyl
His posts were calmly and politely explaining his point of view and what he saw as the failings in yours. Disagreement is not 'vitriolic BS'. I'm not clear what you mean by debate, but if you mean discussion then open and honest discussion is exactly what greyl was providing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
democraticinsurgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. that would be a first for greyl (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrokenBeyondRepair Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. good call..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
democraticinsurgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Much appreciated
Thanks BrokenBeyondRepair!

Most of you here don't know me, but I have been reading this form more than daily for more than 2 years. I don't post a lot in general, and I specifically haven't posted a lot in here for the same reasons others have recently articulated. I don't care to be jumped on for the most minor issues which really aren't even debatable.

I do think that this forum should be about debate, and yes, disagreement. But I am simply not going to argue irrelevant side issues like whether or not there is a large number of uncritical thinkers in the good old USA. Duh. Puhleeeze. Are we all Democrats here, or not?

I also don't want to debate whether the sky is blue, whether the earth is flat, or what a conspiracy theory is or isn't.

Let's poke at the official story, and even support it where it can be supported (a stretch, I know). DU has given us a limited gift, but it's a gift nonetheless. I have marvelled and admired the postings of many here who genuinely want to get at the truth. Lots of groundbreaking work has been done here despite the trolling obstacles.

One thing does occur to me: we won't find the truth if certain posters succeed in discouraging us from looking for it. So here I am. Not giving up.

Perhaps it is true. The ignore button shall set us free to do what we came here to do.

Cheers.

Rick

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Ignore is definitely a good thing. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. I think that's an unsubstantiated bit of DU folklore
Edited on Thu Aug-31-06 07:27 PM by salvorhardin
democraticinsurgent said...
Unfortunately there is a large % that cannot and will not consider that their goverment could be evil.

I think that's an unsubstantiated bit of DU folklore. You may have been right in 1964, but as recently as 1994 79% of people polled in a University of Michigan survey indicated that they did not trust the federal government to do the right thing "most of the time". That was at a time where the President had approval ratings ranging from about 45% to 55%.

Do you suppose that today, at a point where the President has an approval rating of just about 40% or less, that more people would trust the government today than in 1994? In point of fact, as late as 2004 only 43% trusted the government to do the right thing most of the time, while 52% trust their government only "some of the time". That is more than double the 1994 number but it is also after a concentrated effort by the Clinton administration to restore trust in government.

And while there are no studies that I know of that gage the public's perception of the degree of evilness of their government, the numbers would seem to indicate the majority of the public is far from blindly placing their trust in government. One could say that given the sheer number and variety of conspiracist theories that people believe in, many having to do with the U.S. government, it would seem that a very large number of people do indeed feel that their government is capable of evil.

No matter how one looks at it I just don't think your statement stands up to analysis. Which underscores another danger of conspiracism. It plays the public as fools (similarly to neoconservativism) and when we base our positions and policies on such toxic attitudes the public will pick up on it. After all, who would you rather vote for or support? The person who tells you you're a fool or the person who plays to your intelligence and reasoned judgement?

http://www.umich.edu/~nes/nesguide/toptable/tab5a_1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_clinton#Public_approval
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_w._bush#Criticism_and_public_perception
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3257/is_n5_v50/ai_18340535
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alleged_conspiracy_theories
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
democraticinsurgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Thanks for proving my point
The statement was "a large %". You have just made my case.

Is it 21%? 43% Either one is fine with me. Both are large. (I never said "majority" or "most)

Besides, those figures don't test the % of people who would not allow themselves to believe in something as heinous as our government perpetrating 9/11 or stealing an election. They test the % of people who don't trust the government to consistently do the "right thing". Something entirely different than asking people if the government is capable of intentionally murdering its own people.

This is exactly what I don't want to be doing. Debating silly points.

However, you set out to disprove a generalization that's widely accepted to be true.

And thank you for proving it instead.

Yours in critical thinking,

Rick

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I agree.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. FYI
Edited on Thu Aug-31-06 03:02 PM by salvorhardin
Debunking Conspiracy Theories
An interview with Chip Berlet
By David Barsamian
Z Magazine, Sept. 2004
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Sept2004/barsamian0904.html

BERLET: I’m going to make a distinction between conspiracy and conspiracism, which is a way of seeing the world that overvalues the role of individual actors and undercuts any kind of systemic or institutional analysis. Conspiracism sees the world as governed by plots hatched by relatively small groups of people.

...

BERLET: ... For many decades these are right-wing theories that surface against the Jesuits, against Jews, against anarchists, and during the McCarthy period, against Communists. The basic theme is that the reason you’re unhappy with the government is that there are these secret elites who run everything. The original allegations started out with the Illuminati, which is said to be controlling the Freemasons. In the 1900s, this gets changed to the “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion,” a hoax document that alleges that Jews run everything. In the 1950s, it’s all about the Communists and the State Department and the CIA versus the really righteous people in the military and conservative groups. Today it filters down so that a number of progressives have adopted this way of thinking and claim that ever since the JFK assassination the government has been run by a handful of secret elites.

The reason I get so frustrated with this is that we’re sitting here in a library. Just a few feet from us there are 300 or 400 books written by right wingers over the last 50 years making all of these allegations. Then I have a shelf of books by progressives who have adopted this way of thinking and made it a progressive issue by abandoning any kind of systemic institutional or structural analysis.

...

BERLET: ... The problem is that it distracts attention from those things that we could be talking to our neighbors about how society is structured to ensure that a certain number of people are unemployed. Do we like that as a policy for the economy of the United States? Do we like the policy being put forward by the Bush administration of being the global cop of the world? If we go into a political setting and say, “Bush engineered the attack on 9/11,” we are closing the door to reaching into new communities that we can bring into the movement for social change. It is suicidal for progressives to make these outlandish claims on scant, if any, information and documentation when there is so much really good reporting going on.

Conspiracy theorists are right—something is wrong. But we’re not going to change things by running down six white guys drinking bourbon in a basement on Wall Street. We’re going to change things by showing how people are affected by a political and economic system that values wealth and power and privilege and we need to change that to value democracy, diversity, and equality.


Much more at the link. It's a fairly lengthy (~4,100 words) and informative interview with Berlet. You seemed to be struggling with trying to understand the difference between a conspiracy and conspiracsim so I thought this might help you clarify the distinction in your mind. Also, I can not point it out enough times, Richard Hofstadter's The Paranoid Style In American Politics. The 'paranoid style' of Hofstadter's title is what's referred to as conspiracism by researchers these days.
http://www.neuralgourmet.com/theparanoidstyle
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. "a distinction between conspiracy and conspiracism"?
Say it ain't so!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. A bit of a false choice - here's an analogy.
Edited on Fri Sep-01-06 02:58 AM by pauldp
The implication is if you suspect widespread conspiracy, you will hinder efforts to make systemic and institutional changes.

It's like a doctor saying you shouldn't worry about how far
the cancer has spread, you should just focus on changing your diet and exercise habits. Well some times you need to know how far the cancer has spread in order to know what to do about it. Sometimes the cancer has gotten so bad it requires immediate drastic measures.

Granted some people will become overly agitated when they hear it is cancer
like people who become overly paranoid about government conspiracies. But I contend many, probably most here on this board who question the official story of 911 are not overly paranoid - they've seen some evidence that
implies a huge problem and they want some real thorough testing done. This doesn't preclude anyone from making systemic changes.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Just a real quick point:
Edited on Fri Sep-01-06 03:28 AM by greyl
How often do people who believe that our government conducted 9/11 and fabricated bin laden, think about port security, airport security, and the fact that bushco's behavior in the Mid-East has led to an increase in the threat from terrorism over the level that already existed since the early 80's spawned by our government's horrible behavior in the Mid-East?

Referring to your analogy, I think it misses the mark.
Conspiracism doesn't stop at a thorough search for cancer, it goes on to assume that the patient has every illness in the textbook, and goes on believing so even after the evidence doesn't bear it out.
In that way, conspiracism is analogous to hypochondria rather than to a vigilant regimen of good health.

edit: spling
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kailassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
31. Great post, Sinti. I'm so glad your relatives were kept safe.
It must have been difficult for people back then to acknowlege that their own countries,
and the people they had worked with and been friends with for so long, could turn on them
the way they did. Because what happened was inimaginably horrendous, too few could foresee
the possibility of it ever getting that bad.

:pals:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FoxOnTheRun Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
32. Some quotes
"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson."
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

In politics nothing is accidental. If something happens, be assured it was planned this way."
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

"It is not a matter of what is true that counts, but a matter of what is perceived to be true."
- Henry Kissinger

"Truth is so precious that it must be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies."
- Winston Churchill


And more quotes
http://www.letstalksense.com/more_quotes.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-02-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Man, this quote from Henry Kissinger is so fascistic.....
"It is not a matter of what is true that counts, but a matter of what is perceived to be true."
- Henry Kissinger
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-02-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Well... he isn't a very nice person.
Edited on Sat Sep-02-06 12:33 PM by Make7
"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." - Henry Kissinger

"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." - Henry Kissinger
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC