Has ANYONE out there in the DU world EVER seen any

statements from the air traffic controllers that day? I was looking through the 9/11 investigation and report already, I could find nothing.

If anyone saved an article, website, knows the names of the people who sat there for 40 minutes and did not contact our military that planes had been hijacked? Then, after the first plane hit, sat and watched the other plane go off course for almost 20 minutes and did nothing as well as the planes going toward Washington and over Pennsylvania?

Does ANYONE have any names of these air traffic controllers, statements, anything? OR Have these people have completely disappeared . . . like every scrap of the plane that hit the Pentagon and the plane crash in Pennsylvania.

I have NEVER seen anything and I feel their comments as to why they did not react like they should have would be a very important part of this tragedy.

ANYONE?????

But a few months ago, it was reported in an article in LBN that the air traffic controllers WERE interviewed on tape, but a honcho at the FAA collected all the tapes and destroyed them.

Seriously.

...FOR YEARS--including here at DU. The air traffic controllers seem to have been left out of everything. There was a report a few weeks ago about a manager or supervisor(?) who had recordings of statements that ATCs had made within days after 9/11 and he, for some reason, destroyed the tapes. He actually cut them up and put them in different trashcans around the building. I personally don't believe that he ATCs sat and did nothing once they realized that planes were being hijacked. I think the situation was somehow taken out of their hands at some point and they are being left out of the investigation because anything they might say could raise even more serious questions.

...the interviews violated union rules.

We actually have a ATC who posts here at DU. He's explained why the tapes had to be destroyed and that the ATCs involved were interviewed many other times. What they had to say has not been lost. He'll notice this thread any minute now and post yet again on this topic.

1. Why did this guy dump the cut up pieces of the tape in different trashcans around the building?

2. After an event of the magnitude of 9/11 couldn't this particular union rule be temporarily suspended?

3.What did the ATCs say in their interviews and where can we find it?

on edit: Also, in the articles I've read about this tape destroying incident the people directly involved don't mention anything about union rules.

I wonder too.

Which will be supplanted by anything Mercutio says, but here goes:

1. Why did this guy dump the cut up pieces of the tape in different trashcans around the building?

Basically, you'll have to ask that guy. I think the tape was that egregious a violation of union rules.

2. After an event of the magnitude of 9/11 couldn't this particular union rule be temporarily suspended?

No. Union rules are there for the protection of the workers. Everything the ATCs said on those tapes, they said for their later interviews. Nothing's been lost.

3.What did the ATCs say in their interviews and where can we find it?

Don't know. There's one interview I know about here, from October 24, 2001:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/2020_011024_atc_feature.html

It's mostly about Danielle O'Brien who worked from Dulles that day.

I only speculated that the interviews were conducted in violation of contract, I have no direct knowledge of the tapes. However, the same controllers were (and are) available for further interviews. It was bizarre to cut up the tapes and dispose of them in that way, but nothing's been lost.

I can tell you some hints where to look.

This O`Brien story has no value as it is obvious. Why not? We must differ between local airports and their atcs fos landing and starts, then we have the artcc -air route traffic contrl centers which Mercutio is allegedly a part of
and then we have the superiors , i.e. in Herndon, VA, the center of all.

O`brien covers the lowest level and has nothing to tell us.
Most important is:
ARTCC Cleveland ("mercutio"s domain - which was evaciuated in the crucial time except Stacey Taylor, who heroically did her job to accomany UAL83 to its final point

and the one in Nashua, NH. He was not named, but a colleague ATC refered to him the next day in the local newspaper. He was so heroic that he was alble to handle even UA175 after AA11 had hit WTC1. And he was the sme guy responsible for Egypt air two years earlier.

So we have more or less (because no ARTCC said to be responsiblöe for the erratic AAL77) TWO (in numers:2) ATCs in charge and no other witnesses because Cleveland was evacuated.

All this is in my book "facts forgferies and the hidden evidence of 9/11, see : www.medienanalyse-international.de/fakten.html

In comparison to the conspiracy theorists this book will be valid for many years as a standard.

Cleveland Center was evacuated, but there were two controllers (at least) who stayed in each of the (then) seven areas, plus supervisory staff. 20+ people hardly constitutes "no other witnesses".

(For those unfamiliar, Cleveland Center was evacuated becauses of DAL1989 which had lost contact with ATC near Cleveland and allegedly might have had a bomb aboard. It was later determined that there was no bomb aboard DAL1989)

and they are so clear as you say:
why cant we find the story about 2ATCs + supervisor wether on the ARTCC Cleveland website nor in Staceys recalling of the events in the Brokaw show ?

And: if you evacuate a building but let 20+ perons inside isn`r it somehow funny to differ between indispensablöe persons and the not needed ones, between cowards and heroes ?

LOL.

The Center was evacuated, but SOMEBODY had to talk to the airplanes in our airspace. Volunteers to stay were solicited and Stacey was one of the volunteers chosen. I'd imagine that it wasn't presented that was because nobody asked. It wasn't a matter of "cowards and heroes", the Center just went to absolute minimum staffing.

I don't think you have a good picture of the size of our facility. We're the busiest ATC facility on the planet, employing about 470 controllers and 250 support staff. We cover 70,000 square miles of airspace. There's no way one controller could have handled that kind of workload, even if it was physically possible to combine all of the airspace at one sector (which it's not). There were obviously other controllers working at the time, they just didn't have contact with any of the 9/11 pl,anes (other than one other controller who's voice can be heard on the tapes when UAL93 first checks in at Cleveland Center).

This paragraph, in particular, is completely false:

“Pilots are supposed to hit each fix with pinpoint accuracy. If a plane deviates by 15 degrees, or two miles from that course, the flight controllers will hit the panic button. They'll call the plane, saying ‘American 11, you're deviating from course.’ It's considered a real emergency, like a police car screeching down a highway at 100 miles an hour....” < MSNBC, 9/12/01 >


Paul uses such statements to set the stage that something was done incorrectly. The problem is that the statements just aren't true.

a deviation of 15 degrees draws no reaction at all in the most populated airspace of the world?

Or that the ATCs begin to argue, to discuss, to beg the pilots to stay on the road? Pilots sign their exact route as a document before start are they free to break that rule?

And do not tell us about sudden thunderstorms - any deviation is DEPENDEND on the agreement between ATC and pilot.

Hell, the WIND can blow a plane 15 degrees off course without much difficulty. Some radials of certain navaids "bend". A plane can show that it's on course and still be at least 15 degrees off course. We deal with this every day.

No, we do not beg. If the plane doesn't begin to correct its course after a few minutes, we generally let them know they're off course. If that doesn't help, we usually assign an appropriate heading. If there's no traffic for them, it's an even lower priority.

The statement on Paul's site is simply wrong.

indicates that the story we are being fed is totally false.

Several aircraft in the US were hijacked and brought down in a massive coordinated terrorist action. Both New York WTC towers were hit, as was the Pentagon in Washington, DC
Aircraft which were involved:-
» Boeing 767-223 N334AA
» Boeing 767-222 N612UA
» Boeing 767-222 N591UA
» Boeing 767-223 N644AA
http://www.flightlinemalta.com/airaccidents/HijackDisaster11Sep2001/

THAT is what the mass media claims.
But the Bureau of Transportation Statistics
maintains a database
which completely contradicts
THAT version of the events of September 11, 2001.

Let us hie to the BTS stats page and take a look at
the Departure Statistic(s): Wheels-off Time
Airport(s): BOS
Month(s): September
Day(s): 11
Year(s): 2001
for
American Airlines
and United Airlines
and Delta Airlines.


American Airlines flights out of Logan on September 11, 2001.
AA 09/11/2001 0153 N232AA ORD 8:41
AA 09/11/2001 0189 N3BMAA SEA 8:56
AA 09/11/2001 0269 N636AA SJC 8:09
AA 09/11/2001 0461 N255AA DFW 6:50
AA 09/11/2001 0645 N3BLAA JFK 6:20
AA 09/11/2001 1019 N078AA SJU 7:14
AA 09/11/2001 1135 N2CFAA ORD 7:19
AA 09/11/2001 1547 N321AA MCO 7:39
AA 09/11/2001 1555 N3BBAA ORD 6:03
AA 09/11/2001 1663 N521AA DFW 7:18
AA 09/11/2001 1711 N061AA MIA 6:18
AA 09/11/2001 1757 N3CLAA ORD 7:48
AA 09/11/2001 1811 N2CBAA DCA 6:47
AA 09/11/2001 1857 N630AA DFW 8:30
AA 09/11/2001 1971 N5EPAA SJU 8:34
AA 09/11/2001 1983 N3BRAA FLL 6:43
The total number of the records found for this query: 55


United Airlines flights out of Logan on September 11, 2001.
UA 09/11/2001 0163 N526UA SFO 7:20
UA 09/11/2001 0175 N612UA LAX 8:23 *Allegedy crashed into the WTC.
UA 09/11/2001 0211 N463UA IAD 7:51
UA 09/11/2001 0503 N314UA ORD 6:11
UA 09/11/2001 0505 N431UA DEN 8:10
UA 09/11/2001 0507 N564UA ORD 7:43
UA 09/11/2001 0583 N433UA DEN 6:10
UA 09/11/2001 0895 N461UA ORD 8:40
UA 09/11/2001 1439 N356UA ORD 6:40
UA 09/11/2001 1877 N556UA IAD 6:52
UA 09/11/2001 1947 N435UA IAD 0:00
The total number of the records found for this query: 44


Delta Airlines flights out of Logan on September 11, 2001.
DL 09/11/2001 0295 N505DA CVG 6:20
DL 09/11/2001 0355 N665DN DFW 6:04
DL 09/11/2001 0565 N394DA SLC 7:16
DL 09/11/2001 0631 N910DE ATL 6:23
DL 09/11/2001 0915 N177DZ ATL 7:29
DL 09/11/2001 1043 N113DA ATL 8:21
DL 09/11/2001 1823 N3733Z LGA 7:46
DL 09/11/2001 1989 N189DN LAX 8:25 * Almost"hijacked."Landed" at CLE.
DL 09/11/2001 2179 N3737C LGA 6:19
DL 09/11/2001 2351 N316DL MCO 8:13
DL 09/11/2001 2433 N380DL RSW 8:16
DL 09/11/2001 2435 N382DL PBI 8:02
DL 09/11/2001 2545 N324DL FLL 7:13
The total number of the records found for this query: 64

Most of the AA flights appear to be taking place aboard planes with bogus registrations.
An FAA issued N-number must contain five characters - not counting the initial N - and can only contain one or two letters which must be placed at the very end.
The letters O and I are not included
since they are easily confused with the numerals ONE and ZERO.
An N-number can be composed of only numbers
BUT
the first numeral after the N CANNOT be zero.
A closer look at these AA 9:11 Logan Departure N-numbers
indicates that most of them are invalid.

AA 09/11/2001 0153 N232AA ORD 8:41
AA 09/11/2001 0189 N3BMAA SEA 8:56
AA 09/11/2001 0269 N636AA SJC 8:09
AA 09/11/2001 0461 N255AA DFW 6:50
AA 09/11/2001 0645 N3BLAA JFK 6:20
AA 09/11/2001 1019 N078AA SJU 7:14
AA 09/11/2001 1135 N2CFAA ORD 7:19
AA 09/11/2001 1547 N321AA MCO 7:39
AA 09/11/2001 1555 N3BBAA ORD 6:03
AA 09/11/2001 1663 N521AA DFW 7:18
AA 09/11/2001 1711 N061AA MIA 6:18
AA 09/11/2001 1757 N3CLAA ORD 7:48
AA 09/11/2001 1811 N2CBAA DCA 6:47
AA 09/11/2001 1857 N630AA DFW 8:30
AA 09/11/2001 1971 N5EPAA SJU 8:34

These are the ONLY legitmate AA operated planes
that departed Logan.
AA 09/11/2001 0461 N255AA DFW 6:50
AA 09/11/2001 1663 N521AA DFW 7:18
AA 09/11/2001 1547 N321AA MCO 7:39
AA 09/11/2001 0269 N636AA SJC 8:09
AA 09/11/2001 1857 N630AA DFW 8:30
AA 09/11/2001 0153 N232AA ORD 8:41
As you can see, the BTS is telling
a completely different story from the media.
Lets see what happens when we run these planes through the FAA n-number registry.
N255AA is Assigned DC-9-82(MD-82) Serial 49287
N521AA is Assigned STEWART MACO FALCON-XP Serial 600128 Undeliverable Triennial
N321AA is Assigned Boeing 767-223 Serial 22322
N636AA is Assigned ALLEVA ANTHONY DRAGONFLY Serial 715 Amateur Built Experimental plane
N630AA is Assigned Boeing 757-223 Serial 24588
N232AA is Assigned DC-9-82(MD-82) Serial 49179

That leaves us with one 737, one 757 and one 767 Boeings,
and two AA operated DC-9s which are operated by Amerian Airlines.
NONE of these planes is alleged to have crashed anywhere on September 11. Furthermore, some early reports charge that the AA flight out of Logan was chartered privately which fact might explain the ommission of Flight 11 from the BTS database.
Let us run the UA planes through the FAA N-number registry.

N526UA is Assigned Boeing 757-222 Serial 24994 MFR 1991
N612UA is Assigned Boeing 767-222 Serial 21873 MFR 1983
N463UA is Assigned AIRBUS INDUSTRIE A320-232 Serial 1282
N314UA is Assigned Boeing 737-322 Serial 23675
N431UA is Assigned AIRBUS INDUSTRIE A320-232 Serial 571
N564UA is Assigned Boeing 757-222 Serial 26666 MFR 1992
N433UA is Assigned AIRBUS INDUSTRIE A320-232 Serial 589
N461UA is Assigned AIRBUS INDUSTRIE A320-232 Serial 1266
N356UA is Assigned Boeing 737-322 Serial 24362
N556UA is Assigned Boeing 757-222 Serial 26650 MFR 1992
N435UA is Assigned AIRBUS INDUSTRIE A320-232 Serial 613

That leaves us with two 737s, three 757s and one 767
and five Airbus A320-232s which are operated by Unted Airlines.
Only ONE of these planes, N612UA, is alleged to have crashed into the WTC.
I wonder what it was that the Air traffic Control people at Logan put on that tape. It must have been most interesting.
I do declare that this is the first time I have EVER seen union regs supercede national security.
And nary a shop steward in sight....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6892-2004May6.html

In defence of the Air Traffic Control personnel,
it does not appear,
judging from the info on the BTS database,
that even one hundred flights were scheduled or took off that day.
The US national airspace was practically DEVOID of US domestic air traffic
BEFORE any of the hijackings took place.
Yes,
I know that the mass media claims that over 4,000 planes
were brought down safely on the morning of September 11, 2001.
I say there were fewer than one thousand flights to start with
and quite possibly less than even five whole hundred.
I bet that no-one here at DU (not even the lurkers)
will be able to demonstrate
that even as many as one whole thousand flights
occupied US contiguous airspace
for the entire 24 hour duration of September 11, 2001.

NOTE:
the mere testimony of public figures such as Norman Mineta,
is not considered valid for the purposes of this wager.
Each flight includes one takeoff and one landing,
unless there exists good reason
as to why a plane either vanished or appeared out of nowhere.
AA domestic flights are particularly prone to this phenomenon, therefore points will be awarded on a case-by-case basis.

but I don't know if it's available on the net.

But here's another interesting article from Matthew L. Wald, the NY Times reporter who introduced the manic tape-crushing FAA manager to the public (bytheway, does anyone apart from boloboffin and mercutio believe that union rules dictate to cut tapes into pieces and distribute them over different trash cans?):

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/national/13AVIA.html?ex=1087012800&en=4214b4fa5c6a7699&ei=5070

Controllers Say Flow of Information on Hijacked Planes' Course Was Slow and Uneven

...

The F.A.A. has refused to give details, saying that the way the information flows within the agency is part of the F.B.I.'s investigation into Tuesday's attacks. But people involved describe a haphazard flow.

For example, at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center in Ronkonkoma, which handles long-distance traffic around the New York metropolitan area, the first inkling of a hijacking that most controllers had was when a supervisor came to the cafeteria and asked if he could change the television channel to CNN.

"Our TV's are always tuned to ESPN," one controller said.

The television screen showed one tower of the World Trade Center with a hole in it. "We didn't know what kind, what airplane. There were rumors it was a 737," the controller said. "We said, `No way, it would be a much bigger hole.' We were watching, and we saw the second one go in."

In the darkened, windowless cavern that is the operations floor of the center, most controllers did not learn of the twin hijackings until their colleagues came up from the cafeteria.

...

http://members.fortunecity.com/seismicevent/msnbctransponder.html

Thank you both dulce for the informations. There should be a way to evaluate the smaller amount of flights:

- the crisis of the industry should have reduced the amount anyway - so there must be statistics about the amount of flights per day, day by day and in comparison to the year befor. I am talking about statistics which are basic for any political decision when you plan new airports or when you think about increasing the amount of Boeings in your fleet and so on.
Including numbers of passengers.

And is there any significant change on 9/11?

If so: dulce got it out.
If not: a) the fake numbers produce a fake normality, but then:
b) where wee the protesting passengers?

Ir is worth to get a second source. If the fake number story is valid it explains a lot. So it is all hot.



And concermning Woody s info: I must repeat it again and again:
Ronkonkoma was not involved in 9/11. It is a red herring. Look into the airspace-borders: Ronkonkoma is out, it was never mentioned by the way, it is a false lead. Pardon me. Simple fact.

involved?

Look at the airspace again. New York Center overlays the TRACON.

tell us how Ronkonkoma was involved. I.e. tell us how Nasua, NH, handed AA11 over to Ronkonkoma:

"Hey, Newyorkers, here I have a funny plane for you: I guess it is AA11, it has no transponder signal, does not eact on radio and is normally bound to L.A.. Take it, Ronknkoma, I do not like it anymore and I noticed NORAD at 8:28"

Please be so kind to tell us when and how and from whom to whom the responsibility went with which flights.

Tell us how Ronkonkoma was involved.

New York ARTCC is located in Ronkonkoma, N.Y., so it's occasionally referred to as "Ronkonkoma" by laypersons.

(New York ARTCC is that BIG airspace that overlays parts of New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, etc. from the top of approach control airspace to 60,000 feet.).

bytheway, does anyone apart from boloboffin and mercutio believe that union rules dictate to cut tapes into pieces and distribute them over different trash cans?)

That is not what has been stated and you damn well know it.

Union rules govern how managers can interview ATCs following emergency situations. The interview conducted on that tape violated those rules. The manager took it upon himself to dispose of the tape in that extreme fashion.

Neither mercutioATC or I have ever claimed what you say we claimed. Post a link to one of our posts and prove me wrong.

Why are you misrepresenting what we say on these forums? Hmmm?

for misjudging your knowledge of union rules. But I didn't misrepresent a statement of yours.

bytheway, does anyone apart from boloboffin and mercutio believe that union rules dictate to cut tapes into pieces and distribute them over different trash cans?

You see the difference? I never claimed that you were claiming something. I just concluded from your statements that you believe in these weird non-existent rules. The conclusion was wrong. For that I apologize.

I know that you are a real seeker of the truth.

a new hampshire atc spokeout on either 9/11 or 9/12 and talked about the two boston planes and how a military plane had followed 93 the whole way and said something like "he must have seen the whole thing"

check paul's timeline.

...which is what I've been saying all along. The system was at fault, not the people involved.

how comes that it is always the same lame excuse every time in those situations?

I.e.: the system never gets tested? Is there no evaluation, test, simulation, never? Nobody is responsible for the validity of the system?

So even when I follow your argument it makes no sense. Everybody know Murphys laws. And everybody knows Murphys excuses. And everybody knows that it is impossible to use Murphys laws 4 times in two hours.

Forget it. Tell your superiors: "Sory, they do not believe it".

He interviewed most of the controllers involved on national TV.

That aside, I work with Stacey Taylor, the controller in who's airspace UAL93 crashed, so I've heard her story (if you search in the archives, the posts should still be there).

Controllers didn't sith there for 40 minutes before notifying anybody. There's a chain of command that's followed (well, before 9/11, anyway) and it takes time to relay the information. We do NOT have any way to contact NORAD from the sector.

The controllers did not "disappear". Most of them are still doing exactly what they did prior to 9/11, working airplanes.

...from an obvious disinformation artist like yourself!! :D

Heya, thumb-biter! :hi: I haven't popped down here for a good little while, nice to see I didn't miss too much.

Great to see you again, though

:toast:

nad let us think about why some guys are never emotionally involved when we call them "spooks`?

Anyway it shows: it makes no sense to tell them what they are and who pays them. They know it themselves. So let us be friendly and nice and kind. Untill we put them where they belong.

Actually, that's a very perceptive comment -- about how they are "never emotionally invovled when we call them ""spooks"".

Even though they're professionals (at what they do), they rarely show any emotion except for when they get posts deleted and when they occasionally act like they're offended. Mostly, they just plow along, responding mainly whenever an otherwise damaging message (to the Official CT) makes it easy to cite an opposing expert who would argue the opposite of a particular opinion.

A post, mind you, not even addressed to you...

- i.e. how comes that AA1060 was so close that they could listen to UAL93 radio calls?
Or: where was executive 956 bound for?
Or: why did the not send these planes away from a plabe beining erratic and hijacked since half an hour after WTC and Pentagon being hit`?

Or ask her: did she handle Delta 1989 too?

Or: how comes she did not mention the F16 circling the UAL93 which was mentioned by the Nashua ATC?

Or: how comes that we do not hear anything of her concerning NORAD involvement when it was allgedly involved?

or: how comes that half an hour of action on the tape is reduced to three minutes?

or: who was her colleague? The male voice?

or: what action did she personally take after the y heard "we have a bomb on board"? Is it normal to ask ten times "did they say a bom?ß What means "a bomb"? Could "a bom" be dangerous"?

I like that tape. It is one of the most stupid fakes the CIA ever did.

1) If AAL1060 was within a couple of hundred miles, It would have heard the transmissions from UAL93. We use radios, not paper cups on a string.

2) If I remember correctly, the Execjet volunteered to swing around and try to see what was going on with UAL93. I may be mistaken about this...it's been quite a while since I looked into it.

3) If you listen to the tape, planes WERE turned to protect them from UAL93's deviations.

4) No, she didn't handle DAL1989.

5) She didn't mention the F-16 because there was no F-16 according to her.

6) Stacey is a controller, not anybody who'd have direct contact with NORAD. Communications with NORAD go on at higher levels and controllers are generally not invited.

7) The reduction in length of the tape is for two reasons. First, the FAA edited it to remove the screams of the cockpit crew. The tape was later edited to remove "dead air" and include only actual transmissions. Only FAA officials, investigators, the controllers involved and the families of the victims were permitted to hear the entire tape.

8) The colleague was John Worth, a controller in another Area.

9) Again, if you listen to the tape, SHE didn't ask about the "bomb". Nobody used any of the ridiculous language you suggest.

Please bookmark this post. I'm getting tired of having to repost it for you every six months.