Why is 9-11 important to you?

I would like to know what everyone believes is at stake in the 9-11 debate.

For advocates of "truth": why do you believe 9-11 issues merit your time and energy (why is it important to you?)

For advocates of "received wisdom": why do you believe 9-11 issues merit your time and energy (why is it important to you?)

Further -- what to you suppose will be the BENEFIT (to the world) if your position becomes the final word? What hangs in the balance?

_______________


I'm interested in what either group thinks is the VALUE of the debate. How will the world benefit should your side of the debate wins the day?

You may notice a pattern on this board. The native New Yorkers are the skeptics and pro-truth posters. For us, in addition to its political and geo-political ramifications, 9/11 is also personal. I would like to know who was complicit in the attacks -- everyone who was complicit, where ever the guilt trail leads.

Most of the OCTers, untruthers, Amazin Randi worshipers, Penn & Teller freaks, etc., are out of towners for whom this debate is basically a word game on an anonymous board.

You never cease to amaze. Narcissism at it's finest.

I'm here because I am untruthing, Randi worshipping, Penn & Teller freak...and proud of it. :woohoo:

What is it you need? Our take on the events of 9-11-01 or the 9-11 Inside Job debate?

The same thing that is at stake when I choose to do anything. The well being of myself, my family my community, my nation, my fellow species, my planet.

Ignorance is bad for everybody. It is my goal to enlighten.

Besides that, simple entertainment.

concretely. any ideas?

Ignorance is not bliss. It is bad for everyone.

are ignorant?

as you aim to combat ignorance, do you also seek to combat your own (by "ignorance" i believe we mean "lack of information" rather than a personality defect)? is it as sweet when you learn something new -- or do you mostly relish pointing out what you perceive is "other's ignorance"?

People who disagree with me on aspects of the 9-11 attacks are ignorant of the facts.

I have found many opportunities to educate myself during the discourse.

I don't "relish" pointing out other's ignorance. I appreciate legitimate uncertainty and misunderstanding. What drives me to frustration is those who make definitive claims and declarations based on these misunderstandings.

I relish acting as a gatekeeper for those legitimately confused by those making the false statements.

Ummm... I disagreed with you, and also PROVED *you* wrong...

Who's the ignorant one in *that* case?

Damn, you people need to learn to watch what you say and post.... it has ways of coming back and biting you on the ass....

Just sayin'.....

so I will give you credit where credit is due.

I was mistaken when I refereed to the debris as paper. I should have been more precise regarding the material that was found. All the reports I had seen refereed to the load of mail on board the aircraft. Your facts, however change nothing regarding the point that I was making.

I recall you are not immune to taking liberty with the way you word things to further your argument.

I do not consider you one of the ignorant ones. Slightly misguided, but not completely devoid of objectivity like some around here.

and class. No trying to cover my ass or anything, just "yes, I was wrong, thanks for pointing that out"..

I think it helps to raise the level of discussion around here. We need more of that, IMHO. Sure, we have differeing opinions on some things, as is normal in all of society, but when something is staring you right in the face you have two choices. You either see it and acknowledge it, or you bury your head in the sand. I like to see and acknowledge...

You're a class act, vincent, I'll give you that much.... and I mean that in a nice way, not snarky...

PEACE!

Ghost

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depend on the conspiratoid market yet YOU and your rationalists would DESTROY that.

What kind of decent American are you????

/snark

The gagging of Sibel Edmonds
The outing of Valerie Plame
The war in Iraq
COLLUSION: INTERNATIONAL ESPIONAGE AND THE WAR ON TERROR.
Iran/Contra - George Bush Sr.
BCCI
Tuskegee Syphilis Study
IBM and the Holocaust
Operation Mockingbird
The Manhattan Project
The Catholic Church covering up the pedophila by priests
Enron
Watergate
The Gulf of Tonkin Incident
Vietnam and Other American Fantasies (Culture, Politics, and the Cold War)
Live American POWs in Vietnam
Internal Combustion
philanthropies launched a national campaign of ethnic cleansing in the United States
"Fixing" of intelligence around the desire to invade Iraq --- October Surprise
"Black Box Voting" and computer hacking of elections -- See: VOTESCAM
Operation Gladio
MK-ultra.
COINTELPRO: The FBI's War on Black America
Watergate -- including "black bag jobs" and "The Huston Plan"
Operation Paperclip
CIA coups on democratically elected leaders all around the world ---
CIA-backed death squads in El Salvado
Operation Northwoods
Savings & Loan Theft and Embezzlements
The Drug War is also an obvious conspiracy
CIA-Contra-Crack Cocaine connection
Operation Phoenix, torture program in Vietnam
GULF WAR ILLNESS
Control Room -- Propaganda of the Iraq War
Watergate
The Other Side: An Interview with William Blum
1990 Testimony of Nayirah:
The Mafia
The Dreyfus Affair
Echelon
Ashcroft stopped flying on commercial aircraft before 9/11
Corporatocracy
Hitler really was out to exterminate Jews.
Bernard Ebbers convicted of fraud and conspiracy 180 billion dollar loss to investors.
Secret CIA Prisons
Secret Bombing of Cambodia
Operation Midnight Climax
Operation PBSUCCESS
Operation Ajax
General Motors streetcar conspiracy
De Beers was charged by the United States Justice Department with Sherman Antitrust Act
Indonesian occupation of East Timor
USS LIBERTY
Suppressing Sarkhan
London Police Found Guilty of Health and Safety Failures in Brazilian's Shooting Death
Brzezinski What's most important to the history of the world the Taliban or collapse of SovietEmpire
Curveball REVEALED!!
Subpoenaed: Rice, Hadley et al. in espionage case

Perhaps I could learn to put up pointless lists too!

You forgot the Moon landing hoax and the JFK assassination as those are the only CONSPIRACY THEORIES typically get involved in debunking. Personal preference.

(Hint: note the word after conspiracy...see if you can see the difference.)

P.S. it is a STRETCH to call "NORTHWOODS" (never and operation) a conspiracy.

And if everyone had their heads up their asses none of them would have been proven

such as those surrounding the JFK assassination, the Apollo Moon landings or the 9-11-01 Inside Job theories.

All three involve pseudo-scientific "facts" used as 'evidence' of a conspiracy.

What was the theory?

Did the doctors conspire to let black men die?

There are plenty of collaborative efforts in Human history that have been done surreptitiously that don't meet the usage convetion of the term "conspiracy theory".

There has to be no or inaccurate evidence of the act.

A theory that doctors conspired to spread AIDs amongst the homosexual community would qualify.

An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
A group of conspirators.
Law. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a U.S false flag plan from 1962 as a "preliminary submission suitable for planning purposes" for the agenda of generating U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government of Fidel Castro. The plan says, "The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere." Operation Northwoods was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and signed by the Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer, to the Secretary of Defense.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods


Do you want to try another one?

and it was a stretch to call it a conspiracy as there was no act. If anything it was a proposal.

Another what?

If Northwoods proves something, it proves that the government thinks about hoaxing the people, but doesn't actually do it.

in a vacuum. Look up Group Think.

The gagging of Sibel Edmonds
The outing of Valerie Plame
The war in Iraq
COLLUSION: INTERNATIONAL ESPIONAGE AND THE WAR ON TERROR.
Iran/Contra - George Bush Sr.
BCCI
Tuskegee Syphilis Study
IBM and the Holocaust
Operation Mockingbird
The Manhattan Project
The Catholic Church covering up the pedophila by priests
Enron
Watergate
The Gulf of Tonkin Incident
Vietnam and Other American Fantasies (Culture, Politics, and the Cold War)
Live American POWs in Vietnam
Internal Combustion
philanthropies launched a national campaign of ethnic cleansing in the United States
"Fixing" of intelligence around the desire to invade Iraq --- October Surprise
"Black Box Voting" and computer hacking of elections -- See: VOTESCAM
Operation Gladio
MK-ultra.
COINTELPRO: The FBI's War on Black America
Watergate -- including "black bag jobs" and "The Huston Plan"
Operation Paperclip
CIA coups on democratically elected leaders all around the world ---
CIA-backed death squads in El Salvado
Operation Northwoods
Savings & Loan Theft and Embezzlements
The Drug War is also an obvious conspiracy
CIA-Contra-Crack Cocaine connection
Operation Phoenix, torture program in Vietnam
GULF WAR ILLNESS
Control Room -- Propaganda of the Iraq War
Watergate
The Other Side: An Interview with William Blum
1990 Testimony of Nayirah:
The Mafia
The Dreyfus Affair
Echelon
Ashcroft stopped flying on commercial aircraft before 9/11
Corporatocracy
Hitler really was out to exterminate Jews.
Bernard Ebbers convicted of fraud and conspiracy 180 billion dollar loss to investors.
Secret CIA Prisons
Secret Bombing of Cambodia
Operation Midnight Climax
Operation PBSUCCESS
Operation Ajax
General Motors streetcar conspiracy
De Beers was charged by the United States Justice Department with Sherman Antitrust Act
Indonesian occupation of East Timor
USS LIBERTY
Suppressing Sarkhan
London Police Found Guilty of Health and Safety Failures in Brazilian's Shooting Death
Brzezinski What's most important to the history of the world the Taliban or collapse of SovietEmpire
Curveball REVEALED!!
Subpoenaed: Rice, Hadley et al. in espionage case
Signature lines are currently turned off due to high traffic.

the list looks a little short.

including whistle blowers. 911 is in the UFO/Bigfoot/Fake moon landing camp until can cough up some real evidence (names would be nice.)

Do you want to tell me how long it took to get to the truth?

There is no proof. Only theories...therefore...

Ashcroft stopped flying commercially orior to 9/11. Even Michael Moore's fact-checkers concluded that claim is false.

Ashcroft stopped flying commercially orior to 9/11. Even Michael Moore's fact-checkers concluded that claim is false.

let's do another, one down 50 to go?

Are you?

but I'll give ya one let's move on to the other 50

you won't own up to it. Your intellectual dishonesty is astounding.

Moore's fact-checkers found documentary evidence that the claim is false. Jesus, you're impossible to reason with. It's like the Monty Python dead parrot skit.

Show me proof

according to the story.

read my other posts. Especially, read the part where Michael Moore's fact-checkers eliminated reference to the claim in "Farenheit 911" because they documented at least two instances in which he had flown commercially.

the 911 truth movement, by muddying the waters and opening any questioning to ridicule through association, will help him get a way with it. If the 911 didn't exist, Karl Rove would have created it.

They knew enough to stop the attacks.

What attacks?

They didn't stop the attacks didn't you see the buildings go boom?

they had the info to stop the attacks but either ignored it or didn't put all the pieces together. Stop playing grade school word games.

I thought you meant they stopped the attacks, at least that's what you wrote

it has been a while since I have written for adolescents.

Don't blame me for your inability to write a coherent statement. Did you mean "They knew enough to stop the attacks but did not stop them"?

You left out a couple of important words

are you one of those people where it is always someone else fault?

stated accurately what you meant

I apologize for not recognizing that you were one of them.

The CIA, FBI and Bush Administration were demonstrated to have had enough information to PREVENT the 9-11 attacks.

Stop and prevent can sometimes be synonymous.

What a stupid statement, nothing to do with the fact he didn't finish his sentence

If they *ignored* it, wouldn't that be LIHOP?

:shrug:

"The never ending litany of intelligence and law enforcement failures.
Posted by hack89
They knew enough to stop the attacks."

I don't buy the 'coincidence theory', either...

PEACE!

Ghost

edited: to fix HTML tags.... D'OH!

due to their incompetence. They didn't really know what they had.

You don't get practically everything you want through bumbling and incompetence..

How would that even work? Gotta be the luckiest SOB alive, huh?

I do, however, understand how one could arrive at your conclusion.

PEACE!

Ghost

the truth movement. 911 "truth" is built on the scientific ignorance of many.

I post here because I enjoy the give and take. I am under no illusion that anything that happens here will ever have any significant impact in the real world.

you know exactly what I meant.

This is a childish game you are playing, and I am quickly loosing intrest.

"Government Conspiracies exist therefore 9-11 was a US Government conspiracy" is logic originating from either a child or from an adult who lacks logic skills.

A plan they CONSPIRED to

Thank you for dropping the OPERATION.

My wife and I need to conspire to make dinner plans now.

:applause:

Why 9-11? As opposed to any other issue in political discourse. What's special about 9-11 to you?

Why do you only read one side of the debate?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml


In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term.

the record is clear that he continued to travel by commercial jet also.

sounds like it became a political issue long before 9-11.

he was still warned by the FBI not to fly on commercial planes -- so, i'm not sure where the problem is with this bit of history. if Ashcroft was warned not to fly back in the summer of 2001, and a commercial aircraft was used in a terrorist act, then it seems reasonable to ask what the nature of the "threat assessment" was back in July of 2001. if the FBI had a "threat assessment" concerning commercial airlines, then it seems reasonable to want to more about that threat assessment in the aftermath of a terrorist act using a commercial plane.

just don't think this makes your point very well.

Why didn't they let the airlines know so EVERYONE could stop flying commerical

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/20/movies/20SHEN.html?pagewanted=all&ei=5007&en=906cd89473ac07fc&ex=1403064000

It's still a myth.

where, oh where, is my SLAD-to-English dictionary when I need it?

what we were talking about. Of course, I've come to expect that from you.

figures.

Pointing out your false claim is a "stupid remark"?



http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/20/movies/20SHEN.html?pagewanted=all&ei=5007&en=906cd89473ac07fc&ex=1403064000

the claim that John Ashcroft stopped flying commercially prior to 9/11 is demonstrably false.

You just can't admit to your mistake. Sad.

You just can't admit to your mistake. Sad.

read everything carefully again and you just might see where you went off-track. The initial article was talking about how a threat assessment caused Ashcroft to stop flying commercially on government business. Why is that so surprising to you? It had nothing to do with 9/11, as is shown by Ashcroft continuing to fly commercially on personal trips. If it had ANYTHING at all to do with 9/11, wouldn't the Bush admin started having EVERY cabinet secretary refrain from using commercial travel? Use your brain.

the claim that John Ashcroft stopped flying commercially prior to 9/11 is demonstrably false.

so make up your mind already... which one of us is Jesus???




:hi: .... just messin' with ya, SDude...

PEACE!

Ghost

You can be Jesus

:hi:

I'm the 'Space Age Messiah'... I bring you many good words from above...

Follow Me....

youtube blows on dialup...

I bookmarked it though...

PEACE!

Ghost

the claim that John Ashcroft stopped flying commercially prior to 9/11 is demonstrably false.

the claim that John Ashcroft stopped flying commercially prior to 9/11 is demonstrably false.

the claim that John Ashcroft stopped flying commercially prior to 9/11 is demonstrably false.

you'll find it had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. It'll do you a world of good. After you have, tell us how this claim relates to 9/11.

JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixxgeCrB1ic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzF1W1JvdIo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzF1W1JvdIo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL2iC9IUGXs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTMpTabtWp0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCQ_eH9gUM
CIA coup of Guatemala 1954

Dwight D. Eisenhower- President of the United States from 1953-1961 who allows the first two coups by the CIA to unfold in Iran and Guatemala.

John Foster Dulles- Secretary of State 1951-1957 who is obsessed with the destruction of Communism and neutral governments that tolerate its existence.

Allen Welsh Dulles- Director of the CIA 1953-1961 who lead the first coups produced by the CIA. He is the brother of John Foster Dulles.

E. (Everette) Howard Hunt- Propaganda chief for the CIA in Guatemala. His mission was to try to overthrow the elected President Jacobo Arbenz and replace it with a more pro US dictatorship.

Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán- President of Guatemala from 1952-1954. He was coup d'etat by the CIA for reforming land to peasants from the United Fruit Company and for allowing a Communist Party to function in Guatemala.

Carlos Castillo Armas- The CIA's choice pick to replace Jacob Arbenz after the coup. He becomes President of Guatemala 1954-1957 in a military take over.

United Fruit Company- Was a major US corporation that traded large quantities of fruit. The Company becomes enraged by President Arbenz's policies and lobbies the US government to help them.

Seriously.

not the general topic of lies, Try to stay on point for a change.

the specific topic you and I were discussing was your false claim that Ashcroft stopped flying commercially prior to 9/11. You just can't admit you were wrong.

Ashcroft quit flying commercial aircraft just after he received the warnings in a secret meeting with Tenet and Black on July 17, 2001, the same warning Tenet and Black had given to Rice and Clarke on July 13, 2001, that a huge al Qaeda attack was about to take place inside of the US that would kill thousands of Americans. Although reported on evening news by CBS on July 26, 2001, no one could get any more information out of the FBI or the office of the AJ until after the attacks on 9/11 on what this threat from the FBI was. He later claimed he flew on personal business on commercial aircraft after this point, but other news articles pointed out these flights were in Europe and not in the US.

No one has been able to explain why when Tenet and Black warned Rice, Clarke, Ashcroft, and even Rumsfeld in these two meetings in July, they then forbid Tow Wilshire from transferring the information he had on the Kuala Lumpur meeting and the people who were there on July 13, 2001 and again on July 23, 2001.

This is the very information that could have prevented the attacks on 9/11. Wilshire at this time had stated in emails that he was sure the people who were at Kuala Lumpur were connected to the warnings of a huge al Qaeda attack the CIA had been getting information about and then on July 23, he even stated that he was sure Khalid al Mihdhar and by association Nawaf al-Hazmi were going to be found at the point of the next big al Qaeda attack. On August 22, 2001 Wilshire was told these two al Qaeda terrorists were inside of the US and he knew immediately they were here only in order to take part in this huge attack!

Yet he and many other people at the CIA who knew this said nothing to the FBI or gave any warning at all even when they knew by not giving any warning thousands of Americans would perish in these attacks!



GO FIGURE!!!!

Ashcroft DID continue to fly commercially on personal trips after this date. You'll note the article establishing this is written by Phillip Shenon, who is also the auther of "The Commission", so I think we can regard him as credible. Why are you spreading misinformation?


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/20/movies/20SHEN.html?pagewanted=all&ei=5007&en=906cd89473ac07fc&ex=1403064000

Reply To SDuderstadt: Ashcroft did continue to fly commercially on personal trips after this date. You'll note the article establishing this is written by Phillip Shenon, who is also the auther of "The Commission", so I think we can regard him as credible. Why are you spreading misinformation?


That is exactly what my post said, did you actually read my post? My post said he did fly on personal trips after this date because the government was not going to reimburse him the $10,000+ for flying private jets for personal trips.

This leaves the fact that he not only quite flying on commercial aircraft for his work as AJ but also the fact his office released a press statement that said he was no longer going to fly on commercial aircraft for the remainder of his term due to what was called "an unspecified threat given to him by the FBI". We now know the threat was this information he received from the CIA from Tenet and Black at the secret meeting on July 17, 2001 where Tenet and Black said the al Qaeda terrorists were going to attack inside of the US in an attack that would kill thousands of Americans.

So why did he not tell the FBI to investigate this and find out how to stop this huge attack. Almost 3000 dead Americans and people of other nationalities would be alive today if he did.

By July 17, 2001 the official CIA liaison to the FBI ITOS section, Tom Wilshire, former deputy chief of the CIA Bin Laden unit, already knew that people at the Kuala Lumpur meeting were connected to the warning of a huge al Qaeda attack the CIA had been warned about and by July 23, 2001 we again learn from his email that Wilshire knew that Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, two long time al Qaeda terrorists at the Kuala Lumpur meeting were going to be found at the point of the next big al Qaeda operation. On August 22, 2001 when he is told these two terrorists are found to be inside of the US he says nothing to the FBI even though he is working right at FBI Headquarters in the ITOS unit. The ITOS unit was the unit that at this time was doing everything it could, with Wilshire's help, to shut down and block FBI field investigations of al Qaeda terrorists found inside of the US, Moussaoui, and Mihdhar!



GO FIGURE!

In case you have not seen this before or were not aware of this information, Ashcroft had just been told in a secret meeting with Tenet and Black on July 17, 2001 that the al Qaeda terrorists were just about to stage a massive attack inside of the US that was going to kill thousands of Americans.

He then almost immediately quit flying on commercial aircraft except for personal business, trips he would not be able to be reimbursed for by the US government. According to the press information at that time, this was due to a threat assessment from the FBI, but we now know this was due to this briefing by the CIA and not the FBI. What ever the details of this briefing were Ashcroft was so terrified for his own personal safety he quit flying commercial aircraft on any AJ business.

He clearly did not give a DAMN for the safety of the American people!


In fact there is good reason to think he never bothered to inform the FBI of this CIA briefing and this al Qaeda threat. If he had then why did the FBI do nothing at all to stop this massive al Qaeda attack that was going to kill thousands of Americans? And why did the FBI instead deliberately shut down all investigations of al Qaeda terrorists found to be inside of the US?

EXPLAIN THIS!!!!!

;)

I don't respond to claims that beg the question. All we have are your assertions without a shred of evidence.

I don't respond to claims that beg the question. All we have are your assertions without a shred of evidence.

In case you have not seen this before or were not aware of this information, Ashcroft had just been told in a secret meeting with Tenet and Black on July 17, 2001 that the al Qaeda terrorists were just about to stage a massive attack inside of the US that was going to kill thousands of Americans.

He then almost immediately quit flying on commercial aircraft except for personal business, trips he would not be able to be reimbursed for by the US government. According to the press information at that time, this was due to a threat assessment from the FBI, but we now know this was due to this briefing by the CIA and not the FBI. What ever the details of this briefing were Ashcroft was so terrified for his own personal safety he quit flying commercial aircraft on any AJ business.

This comes from two sources.

First the book "State of Denial" by Bob Woodward describes the Ashcroft briefing on July 17, 2001. Rice backed up this story after she first denied the meeting had taken place, as did the joint heads of the 9/11 Commission after it was obvious there was just too much information from this book to further continue to deni that this meeting had taken place. The meeting had been deliberately left out of the 9/11 Commission report in spite of the fact that information had been given to Richard Bin-Vinesti, and to Philip Zelikow by Tenet in an offical 9/11 Commission interview!

Second the CBS report now all over the internet decribes Aschcroft no longer flying on commercial aircraft after July 26, 2001, you can even find the actual broadcast on the evening news on July 26, 2001 by Dan Rather if you want. The prior post has the information on this CBS report.

The fact the FBI issued this press release is also available on the internet and in the 9/11 Commission report as is Ashcroft's testimony on April 13-14, 2004 at the 9/11 Commission hearings. I was at those hearings and personally heard his testimony and heard his feeble attempt to weasel out of fact he had quit flying commercial aircraft for AJ business. If he had just told the American people of this CIA threat of an impending huge al Qaeda attack about to take place inside of the US that was going to kill thousands, the deaths of 3000 Americans could have been prevented.

GO FIGURE!!

do you have a sense, though, of the outcome that you hope for? is it justice? security? why is "truth" important.

do you wonder what is the outcome hoped for by the "other side"?

what "piece of meat" are people fighting over. i'm not dense -- i have my own ideas about this. but i think it's worth it to explore the question. maybe something unexpected will come up.

The attacks were mass murder, and the guilt trail must be pursued to where ever it leads. We know now that the 9/11 Commission was lied to and stonewalled to prevent that trail from being pursued to its end.

Hence, murders are going free and justice has not been done. Moreover, whoever was involved is free to do it again.

As a New Yorker, we experienced in addition a vast gaping wound in the city itself. I passed through the WTC every day on the way to work. When friends or relatives came to say with us, we took them to the top of the south tower.

On many Friday summer nights, we danced Salsa on the Plaza.

The WTC Plaza in better times (none of these is me):











I don't think the OCTers can tell you why not getting to the truth is important to them. It's either a word game, an opportunity for snark, a deranged belief that they are smarter than everyone else -- or one more reason that I won't mention but that seems obvious.

The fact that the 9-11 commission report was incomplete does not mean 9-11 was an inside job. That is an opinion based on hatred. The moment one lets hate enter the picture you compromise your thinking.



This part is less thoughtfully. It is meaningless. It is ignorant statement that can all too easily be flipped around, just change OCTers to Truthers.

Its not a matter of not getting to the truth its about not allowing blatant untruths to cloud the truth, like thermate, no-planes, and controlled demolition, ect.

I don't argue about money connections or LIHOP theories, because it is pointless. I only have the information that anyone can access on the internet. What I do argue is about material things I see to be false, like the so called "magic bullet" in the JFK assassination, or the waving flag from the moon landing, or the hole in the Pentagon.

and re your post #1, i am with you. raised in Bay Ridge and later lived on Staten Island. my SI apt was on the top floor of a six-flight walk-up slum, but my fire escape, facing the harbor, had a million dollar view. the WTC was, like the Verrazano, iconic to me. i watched the Verrazano go up, and i watched the WTC go up.

i went back to NYC in September 2002 for my Mom's BD and just wept coming in from JFK, as i hit the curve of the Belt Parkway where you first would see the WTC in the distance.

i have always believed in Forensic Files 101 -

FOLLOW THE MONEY

i think it's very clear now who was meant to benefit from the event.

you look at the "once-great" city/nation, and believe "we can do better"? is this the same as "justice"? or is that something else -- because i know that feeling, of looking upon something that has been destroyed. that deep sadness. and i know i "want" something -- but i'm not sure it's "justice" per se.

there's anger too -- that "we" have "dropped the flag." that were given a precious/fragile treasure to protect, and we failed. and continue to fail.

we deserve no less

and in terms of the money trail, yes, justice needs to be done.

i wonder if "justice" covers it -- but that's a good place to start.

there's a sense of shame, is there not? like, how could we allow this to happen. how can there still have so many conflicting narratives?

it's shameful that in lieu of getting the full story on 9-11, we invaded Iraq. i believe if there had been more attention paid to "truth" back then, we wouldn't be in a "land war in asia."

still no answers on 9-11, and now we have a whole new universe of shame to try and un-do.

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