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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 08:27 AM
Original message
James Gourley Published in "The Journal of Engineering Mechanics"
(The following article by James Gourley reports the great news that another piece has been published in a mainstream technical Journal. This follows the publication in April, 2008 in the Bentham 'Open Civil Engineering Journal' and in August, 2008 in 'The Environmentalist'. It also recounts the extra hurdles that critics of the official WTC collapse theories have to jump along the way. -rep)

The Journal of Engineering Mechanics has recently published a paper I authored. It can be found here, beginning on page 915: (PDF 224kb)

Normally, such a publication would be announced here at 911Blogger to let everyone know we are still making progress publishing criticisms of the official fairy tale in mainstream technical journals, in the hopes of reaching more members of the scientific and engineering community.

While I am excited this paper will be reaching new audiences, and I would like to share that fact with you, I am writing today for a different purpose.

Not much is ever written about what we go through to get these papers published. The publication of this paper is a case study in the struggles we face. I’d like to relate to you exactly what I had to go through to get this paper published, and what influences the substance of it have already had. I hesitate to reveal some of the information below, but as will become clear, the Journal of Engineering Mechanics personnel have demonstrated a complete lack of scientific ethics, and I feel like I have no choice but to publish exactly what occurred in the lead up to my paper’s publication.

Before I begin, let me make it perfectly clear that I do not want anyone to call, email or otherwise harass the editors or staff at the Journal of Engineering Mechanics or the authors of the papers I talk about below. Such behavior is extremely counterproductive, and I do not support or endorse such actions...

Continued...
http://911blogger.com/node/18196
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, I'm certainly not an expert in structural mechanics
I read through the PDF and I think I have to go with the rebuttal by Zdenek Bazant and Jia-Liang Le that begins on the page after the article by James Gourley. I found it more convincing. Though for the sake of fairness, I will admit there are parts on both sides where I do not understand everything being said and to be able to do so would take years of study. So I certainly could be wrong but please make another post if you see any updates by Mr. Gourley (he seems to indicate on the 911blogger page that he will).
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. "More convincing" is quite an understatement
Bazant handed Gourley his ass. The engineers who read that will be laughing their asses off, especially when they get to the end and read Bazant's polite suggestion that people who would like to enter the technical debate ought to first invest the time to learn what the fuck they're talking about. I think it's safe to say that Gourley doesn't understand Bazant's rebuttal, either, but I doubt that he's dumb enough to continue thinking he's going to recruit any new "truthers" from the readers of that journal.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. (Self-delete, wrong reply)
Edited on Sun Oct-19-08 01:54 PM by William Seger


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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. This is the quote you mean:
Although everyone is certainly entitled to express his or her opinion on any issue of concern, interested critics should realize that, to help discern the truth about an engineering problem such as the WTC collapse, it is necessary to become acquainted with the relevant material from an appropriate textbook on structural mechanics. Otherwise critics run the risk of misleading and wrongly influencing the public with incorrect information.


OUCH. "Please consult a structural mechanics textbook before attempting to contribute to the discussion again." That's going to leave a mark.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. "That's going to leave a mark."
I gather from Gourley's blog entry at the OP link, his response is, "It's only a flesh wound."


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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-23-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. If it was so uninformed, why did they even bother publishing Gourley's paper then?
The fact is that Bazant's WTC work is horrendously, fraudulently flawed.
See here:
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/spooked911/2007_12
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-23-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. They published it to show...
... why a lawyer with a BS in chemistry shouldn't try to debate structural mechanics with a PhD professor who writes textbooks on the subject. Gourley won't understand Bazant's response, but the people who read that journal will. It's a dead horse, Spooky; I suggest that you try to find some more productive use of your time.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-23-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. ... or, as Bazant put it....
Although none of the discusser's criticisms is scientifically correct, his discussion provides a welcome opportunity to dispel doubts recently voiced by some in the community outside of structural mechanics and engineering.

Ouch! I think Professor Bazant is giving Gourley an F on his paper, Spooky. Are you really delusional enough to think this stuff is just a matter of subjective opinion, so you can post pseudo-scientific blather on your blog and expect people to take it seriously?

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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. what I haven't seen from you is a specific scientific reason for how Gourley was wong
basically all you've said is Bazant says he's wrong. Wow, what a surprise there! Bazant says a critic of his work is wrong and uses the "I'm the expert" line.

I don't trust Bazant at all. His last WTC paper was severely flawed.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Your question implies that either you didn't read it, or you didn't understand it.
Since you parroted the "Newton's third law" nonsense on your own blog, you should have taken some interest in that, at least. Gourley and you claim that Bazant had ignored that law, but Bazant explained that when strain is analyzed in structural mechanics, it is assumed to be an internal force that's acting in both directions perpendicular to an imaginary plane through the structural element, so Newton's third law is automatically satisfied. That part is trivially obvious to anyone who understands anything at all about the subject. But second, he justified the "crush-down/crush-up" model, which is much less obvious. I originally thought that was just a simplification to make the analysis more tractable, but Bazant explains -- in extreme detail -- exactly why the bottom section would undergo more destruction than the top. The "third law" argument that Gourley was making was that the forces should be the same on the top and bottom sections, so they should have been destroyed equally. Bazant points out that in fact the forces are not equal, because the layer of compacted debris that formed in the early stages is actually a third element that must be considered. The force on the bottom section is greater than the force on the top section, and the difference is the weight plus the momentum of that layer of compacted debris. (And the momentum is clearly many times greater than the weight, i.e. many Gs.) When that fact is noted, even high school physics students should be able to see that Bazant is absolutely correct, and that you and Gourley are absolutely wrong. Bazant's calculations show that that difference in stress grew rapidly, and after only a few floors were caught up in that debris layer, the lower structure was being destroyed while the top section was not. Now, I don't personally have the knowledge and math ability to double-check Bazant's calculations, but they were peer-reviewed by people who do, and considering that Bazant writes textbooks on the subject, it's laughable to think that you or Gourley can offer any valid criticism of it. That's certainly the case if you don't even know what you need to be analyzing, and Bazant also deconstructs the logic of Gourley's argument and points out the flaws. That part is pretty easy to follow without any math, and it's pretty interesting.

Bazant also addresses the second major point raised by Gourley: the temperature of the steel. Bazant points out that Gourley is misinterpreting what the NIST report actually says about that -- in fact, no one really knows exactly what temperatures the steel reached -- but the much more important point is something that should have been obvious even to a non-expert reading Bazant's original paper: The temperature of the steel plays no part whatsoever in Bazant's argument. He mentioned it only in the context of what triggered the collapse, and NIST's finite element analysis confirmed that heat-weakening of the steel is what triggered the collapse. Nonetheless, Bazant goes into a lot of detail about the effects of temperature and shows why Gourley's implicit argument -- that the temperature wasn't high enough to trigger the collapse -- is not convincing, which you also apparently didn't understand.

You would like to say that Bazant is just arguing from his own authority, but the reality is that Bazant gives an impressive demonstration of why he is considered an authority. You, on the other hand, apparently understood so little of what Bazant was saying that you have the gall to say, "Bazant says a critic of his work is wrong and uses the 'I'm the expert' line." Sorry, Spooky, but that's a pretty lame response after a smack-down like Bazant handed Gourley, and it strongly suggests that the entirety of Bazant's arguments flew right over your head.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I have now read over the Bazant response
Yes, he gives a very lengthy rebuttal. I will need to look it over carefully. I saw a couple of questionable assertions already.

Aside from the Newton's third law issue-- the problem with the crush-down-crush-up model was that videos show that there is massive crush UP during the "crush down" phase. Bazant's model simply doesn't conform to reality!

The fact is, Bazant at this point, has staked his whole reputation on the official collapse story, so there is every incentive for him to try to manipulate the science to fit his agenda.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Well now that you've read it, I'm sure the whole world is waiting
with baited breath to hear your opinion. :sarcasm:

Get a grip. You are so far out of your league it would be funny if not so sad.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Yeah the Newton stuff is pure BS.
and Bazant's response was respectful and easy to read. Very strait forward rebuttal of every 'point' made.
Gourley (and his followers) clearly lack a basic understanding of what they are discussing.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. thank you Reprehensor! nt
:hi:
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. ridiculous!
"There are many other problems with Dr. Bazant’s Closure paper that should have been caught during peer review. I plan to write separately on all of them, but do need to mention one more. If you look at the first full sentence on page 919 at the first link above, you see the results of Dr. Bazant’s mathematical equations. He basically claims that when the upper block of floors impacts the lower, intact steel structure, that the upper block suffers a dent of between about 1 inch and 1.5 inches, before completely destroying the lower section of floors. Does that make any sense at all? An inch and a half dent? When the upper section of floors slams into the stationary steel structure below? The absolute absurdity of Dr. Bazant’s results is the main reason I’m happy his Closure was allowed to be published. Dr. Bazant appears to be going to extreme lengths to prop up the gravity-only driven collapse scenario. For clues as to why, I recommend page 4 of Kevin Ryan’s paper on the connections between NIST and nanothermite here: (PDF 82kb)"
from:http://911blogger.com/node/18196

bazant is clearly covering up something for unknown reasons. The assertion that the upper part of the building, which was damaged, smashing the entire undamaged building section below is ludicrous to say the least.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. So how does damaging a portion of a building make it lose mass? nt
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. it doesn't. it relocates it in this event...
Edited on Sun Oct-19-08 01:54 PM by wildbilln864
in videos we can clearly see a lot of the mass going outward around the entire building. That ejected mass cannot be a factor in causing the building to completely collapse.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I see a lot of dust and some lateral ejection of structural material
Edited on Sun Oct-19-08 02:59 PM by hack89
but considering that the areas above the collapse zone were within the footprint of the building when they collapsed, logic dictates that gravity was going to bring the vast majority of that mass straight down. What lateral forces are there acting on any of the debris that even approaches the magnitude of the acceleration due to gravity?
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Yep, that's ridiculous
> "For clues as to why, I recommend page 4 of Kevin Ryan’s paper on the connections between NIST and nanothermite here: (PDF 82kb)"

Considering the spanking he took in that exchange, that "rebuttal" is beyond ridiculous. It's not even coherent.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yes, and it's pretty obvious WHY they published it
Perhaps you don't appreciate that with Bazant's rebuttal, it's actually a death blow to the "truth movement physics" that claim the collapse should not have occurred. It's a settled issue now, whether or not Gourley and equally incompetent "truthers" continue waving their hands.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. actually Gourley only raised a fraction of the flaws with Bazant's work
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/spooked911/2007_12

but I was impressed with how lengthy of a rebuttal Bazant gave-- it's gonna take some time to pull that apart, but pull it apart can be done, I'm sure
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Uh-huh
After the flaming rabbit cage experiment, I'm sure the world can hardly wait for your expert opinions. I tried to read that page you keep linking to, but after the thermodynamics part, I just couldn't see any reason to waste the time. In the first place, whoever you parroted that argument from (Steven Jones? I thought you believe he's a disinfo agent?) apparently doesn't understand that entropy only applies to a closed system, and a building collapsing from gravity is certainly not a closed system. Second, it ignores the painfully obvious point that the building fell straight down because that's the direction gravity was pulling it, and there weren't any forces to cause it to do anything else. The only other forces acting on it were secondary forces such as deflections and elastic rebounding, which explain the "fountain" of debris shooting out to the sides. Third, the nearly symmetric nature of the collapse is easy to understand if you could understand that the floor structure and the spandrel beams were distributing impact forces horizontally, so any initial lack of symmetry (which there clearly was) was also quickly spread horizontally. And fourth, after the first couple of seconds, it's impossible to tell much about what's happening because of all the dust and debris, and imaginary descriptions are useless.

You're in way, way over your head, Spooky.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Bazant says the initial crush up for WTC1 was 37 mm and 26 mm for WTC2
"The crush-up simultaneous with the crush down is found to have advanced into the overlying story by only 37 mm for the North Tower and 26 mm for the South Tower."

(Top of page 7)


Do you really believe that????? The WTC2 upper story was only crushed 2.6 cm or about 1 inch when the top started going down?

Does that make any sense or follow the observed destruction in the videos???

http://wtcdemolition.blogspot.com/2006/01/irrefutable-evidence-for-massive.html

It's simply laughable!

Not to mention the laughability of Bazant's perfectly inelastic collision model:
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/spooked911?id=9

Face it, Bazant is full of shit, and is just trying to throw a bunch of equations at us, to try to overwhelm us with math.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Common sense is on your side even less than the math
The engineers who read that journal will immediately understand that Bazant's analysis is a highly simplified two-dimensional model of the actual collapse, which was far too complicated and chaotic to analyze even with our best computer programs. But you're jumping out of the frying pan into the fire if you try to cast doubt on the analysis with that approach. If you're looking for a yes/no, collapse/no collapse conclusion, a simplified analysis is justified provided that when you get to the end, you ask if a more complete, realistic analysis would flip the conclusion. In this case, quite the contrary is true.

The engineers who read that journal will also understand that the two-dimensional analysis greatly favors the "no collapse" scenario, because it requires the columns to be stressed to their maximum theoretical capacity before failing. In reality, we know that's not what happened. We can see from the videos that the collapse began on the perimeter walls, with columns buckling inward. In the couple of seconds after that, before everything is obscured by dust, we can see a sort of accordion effect with whole sections of perimeter columns alternately being pushed out or sucked into the falling debris. That's because the structural integrity is being destroyed, because the floors that were holding the columns vertical are pancaking and destroying each other. Under those circumstances, those columns failed with much less force than would be required if structural integrity had been maintained, i.e. the maximum strength that Bazant uses in his equations.

We can't see what was happening with the core columns, but we can look at the final debris pile and note that most of the columns were not buckled. That's because the floors were also holding those columns vertical. With the loss of structural integrity, most of those columns also failed by being pushed aside and breaking at their weak connections. The core was designed only as a gravity frame, not as a moment frame.

So, Bazant's crush-up calculation is only of theoretical interest. In reality, the structural integrity of the top section was also being lost, so both the top and the bottom sections were literally being torn apart, not crushed.

Face it, you analysis is full of shit, and you're just trying to find something that Bazant got "wrong" to try to convince your fellow ignorant "truthers" who really, really, really don't want to understand that office buildings are simply not designed to withstand that kind of disaster.

It isn't working, and it isn't going to work. Again, I'll suggest that you find something productive to do with your time.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. So you admit his calculations are wrong but you don't care?
Nice bloviating there, but you have neatly evaded the key issue-- is his analysis correct or not?


If he can't get the crush up calculations right, how can we trust the rest?

And remember, those ridiculous crush-up numbers are only the tip of the iceberg.

He's full of shit, and shame on you for supporting his shit.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. That post would be funny if it wasn't for the fact...
that you really do not understand what you did wrong. Sadly I doubt anyone can ever explain it to you.

Fortunately the intended audience for that journal will understand what a simplified model is and what it is not.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. please enlighten me
and also tell me why we should trust a simplified model that doesn't conform to reality.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. This is, hands down, the most ironic post I've ever seen here.
Edited on Sat Oct-25-08 10:27 PM by AZCat
I am shocked you, of all people, asked "why we should trust a simplified model that doesn't conform to reality"? Didn't this occur to you when you built the rabbit cage?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. I agree, clearly in the top five - ever. nt
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. I know, I did that expt with the rabbit fencing, bla bla bla
I assume you know the difference between someone having fun in his backyard and someone getting a scientific paper published.

Further, I never claimed that my "model" proved anything about the WTC event. Moreover #1 I was just having fun, #2 I've learned a lot since then, and #3 never tried to get it published in a scientific journal.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. You haven't learned a damn thing, spooked.
You did claim your experiment was relevant to the WTC collapses. It seems you've forgotten what you said about your experiment:

What I conclude is that a fairly flimsy steel structure does not distort and bend and collapse very easily from a simple hydrocarbon fire. And thus, it is not clear why the much stronger steel columns in the WTC towers weakened so much from fires that the towers underwent global collapse.
(this was from the OP - there are other examples in your replies)
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Yes, I said it was RELEVANT.
But I never said it PROVED anything-- then or now.

And I have learned plenty since then.

YOU still seem to be in denial about 9/11, however.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Oh for fuck's sake.
You thought it meant something. The truth is, it has no fucking relevance to the WTC collapses whatsoever. Your continued defense of that experiment is excellent proof that you haven't learned jack shit.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Yet again AZCat says it better than I could ever have done. n/t
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Thanks, RH.
I've had plenty of practice (thanks to this sub-forum).
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Does Bazant's 26mm crush-up simultaneous with crush down theory have any relevance to the WTC event?
No. But it is more relevant to this post than anything I've done in the past.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. And I had just finished telling you that I doubt you CAN be enlightened.
How about you explain in your own words when a simplified model can be used.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. chirp n/t
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. So you admit that you have no idea what you're talking about but you don't care?
What kind of "truth movement" depends on people who have no idea what they're talking about, Spooky?
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. For some reason, I find models that conform to what happened more convincing
I know, I did that expt with the rabbit fencing, bla bla bla

Except, I never claimed that it proved anything about the WTC event. And further, #1 I was just having fun, #2 I've learned a lot since then, and #3 never tried to get it published in a scientific journal.

What you seem to be good at is trusting the official experts, even though I bet you have almost no idea about the details of what Bazant actually showed.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Your inability to understand Bazant's model isn't his problem, spooked. n/t
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. HIS MODEL IS WRONG FOR MANY REASONS.
Edited on Sat Oct-25-08 04:12 PM by spooked911
I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

YES, HE DID SOME MATH TO SHOW A RAPID COLLAPSE THAT SUPPORTS THE OFFICIAL STORY.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE'S PROVEN THE OFFICIAL STORY.

AND WHEN YOU FUCKING SEE A ONE INCH CRUSH UP AT THE START OF COLLAPSE WHEN VIDEOS SHOW TEN-TWENTY STORIES BEING CRUSHED UP YOU KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM.


WHEN HE USES TOO LARGE OF A SIZE DUST PARTICLE BECAUSE THAT GIVES A LOWER ENERGY REQUIRED FOR COMMINUTION, YOU KNOW THAT'S A PROBLEM.

WHEN HE USES A FREAKIN' PERFECT INELASTIC COLLISION FOR FLOORS IMPACTING EACH OTHER IN HIS MODEL, YOU KNOW THAT'S A PROBLEM.

TOO BAD YOU ARE SO BLINDED BY WHATEVER TO SEE THE FREAKIN' PROBLEMS OF HIS WORK.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Bazant is not an "official" expert
Bazant is a professor at Northwestern U, and has no association to NIST or any other government agency, nor has anyone granted him any "official" status as an expert. Rather, his standing as an expert is the result of having published over 400 peer-reviewed papers and six textbooks. Recognition of his expertise is demonstrated by the fact that he is among the top 250 authors cited in other peer-reviewed technical papers.

One of the co-authors of the paper that Gourley was "reviewing" was Frank Greening, a Canadian scientist who is an outspoken critic of the NIST report.

The numerical model they presented DOES "conform to what happened" in all significant details, from the totality of the collapse to the precise time it took (which ignorant "truthers" claim was too fast to be explained by anything except demolition). The significant finding from that (self-admittedly simplified) analysis was that the dynamic forces involved were at least 8 times what the structure could withstand under the best of circumstances. Nit-picking about the "realism" of the analysis simply isn't going to change the conclusion that the collapse was inevitable, and slander by the likes of ignorant people like you and Gourley isn't going to change the broad consensus among other recognized experts.

But the truly pathetic thing is that ignorance is not your major problem, Spooky. Ignorance is curable. The major thing that stands between you and understanding what happened on 9/11 is your own impenetrable delusion that the towers "must" have been demolished, and your insistence on rejecting anything that doesn't fit that delusion.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-25-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. He's official; he gets grant money from them
Edited on Sat Oct-25-08 04:12 PM by spooked911
Yes, he has plausible deniability that he's independent but that's a ruse.

HIS MODEL IS WRONG FOR MANY REASONS. I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

YES, HE DID SOME MATH TO SHOW A RAPID COLLAPSE THAT SUPPORTS THE OFFICIAL STORY.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE'S PROVEN THE OFFICIAL STORY.

AND WHEN YOU FUCKING SEE A ONE INCH CRUSH UP AT THE START OF COLLAPSE WHEN VIDEOS SHOW TEN-TWENTY STORIES BEING CRUSHED UP YOU KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM.


WHEN HE USES TOO LARGE OF A SIZE DUST PARTICLE BECAUSE THAT GIVES A LOWER ENERGY REQUIRED FOR COMMINUTION, YOU KNOW THAT'S A PROBLEM.

WHEN HE USES A FREAKIN' PERFECT INELASTIC COLLISION FOR THE FLOOR COLLISIONS IN HIS MODEL, YOU KNOW THAT'S A PROBLEM.

TOO BAD YOU ARE SO BLINDED BY WHATEVER TO SEE THE FREAKIN' PROBLEMS OF HIS WORK.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. FYI usage fo the caps lock key is inversely proportional to credibility. n/t
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. I was hoping that typing in a louder voice
might help y'all to understand.

Of course, I should have known better.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. So, if you're dead wrong about something....
saying it louder makes it right? Wtf?
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. I'm not the one who is dead wrong
too bad you and you friends here can't see the problems with Bazant's model-- or pretend not to see them

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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. You haven't yet shown that there's anything wrong with it
... and you haven't yet produced a single competent structural engineer who agrees with you. Have they all been paid off? I can't find any proof of your claim that Bazant gets any government grant money, but the guy who was the lead engineer on the project, Leslie Roberts, certainly doesn't, and he agrees completely with Bazant that the total collapse was inevitable after it got started. How do you explain that?

Instead of showing any actual problems with Bazant's analysis, you have made assertions that don't agree with the evidence -- while saying that Bazant's analysis is unbelievable because it doesn't agree with the evidence. Here's a graphic from a site purporting to prove that the top section disintegrated before crushing the bottom section. In fact, the problem with that claim is that it fails to identify the actual location of the collapse initiation, which is clearly at the line of smoke and debris, not at the lowest fire-damaged floor. I have indicated the height of the top block with green lines in the first photo:



The other two photos have exact duplicates of the green lines in the first photo. As I said before, it's hard to tell where the "collapse front" is after the dust and smoke start to obscure the view, but what we CAN see simply doesn't agree with your claims, and it certainly doesn't disprove Bazant's "crush-down/crush-up" hypothesis. In fact, I'd say it appears to confirm his hypothesis.

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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. The data is much more clear for WTC2
please look at the pictures here:
http://wtcdemolition.blogspot.com/2006/01/irrefutable-evidence-for-massive.html

There is at least ten stories of crush up at onset.

Your pictures of WTC1 could even be interpreted to show a large crush up at onset as well.

Just wondering, do you think 26mm and 37mm of crush-up at the onset, as Bazant says, is realistic?
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. Thus proving you have no idea how to talk to rational people
In your little conspiracy theory community yelling might help people 'understand' but out here in the real world it just makes you look like a kook with no valid argument.

Here is a hint. If you are arguing on the facts all you need to do is state them. They speak for themselves and intelligent people will recognize them and change their opinions accordingly.

Of course you can't do that in this case because you have no fucking idea what the hell you are talking about.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-26-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. It's amazing
Spooked feels perfectly at ease criticizing Bazant's work. The best I can tell he doesn't even have the knowledge or experience to understand what Bazant is writing about.

It's a remarkable display of hubris.

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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Gourley was LIMITED in his response, while Bazant wasn't
This is how Gourley explains it:

Back in June 2007, I also learned that Dr. Bazant had recently published a paper in JEM which also relied on the crush down/crush up theory. The Bazant/Verdure Paper can be found here: (PDF 768kb)

I noticed that a window of time was still open where Discussion papers could still be submitted to JEM for the Bazant/Verdure Paper. So, I put the criticisms from my review of the Bazant/Greening Paper into the proper scientific paper form, in accordance with the ASCE Author Guidelines for submission of Discussion Papers. One of those requirements is that Discussion papers contain less than 2000 words. This word limit was extremely limiting for me, as you can probably tell in reading this essay. I’m an attorney, and spend most of my days reading and writing. Most of the documents I draft have either no page limit, or at worst a 15 or 30 page limit. I like to be very thorough when I am writing about a topic, and I don’t like to even mention things that I can’t spend adequate time discussing.

I did not want to exceed the 2000 word limit, because I already knew it would be difficult to get a paper critical of the official story published in a mainstream scientific journal. In other words, I didn’t want to give JEM any reason to reject it. I had a number of other points I could have raised that were critical of the Bazant/Verdure paper, including its assumption that all movements are vertical. However, when I was writing the Discussion paper, I realized very quickly I would not be able to spend adequate time on all of my points, so I focused on the points you see in the published version of my paper.

The paper I submitted was under the 2000 word limit, and was accepted for publication if I would remove language that the editors thought was too argumentative. My legal writing is typically argumentative, so I suspect some of that leaked into my paper. I went back through the paper, humbled my language, and resubmitted it. It was accepted for publication on November 21, 2007.

Dr. Bazant was then given an opportunity to prepare a response to my Discussion paper, called a Closure paper. Under ASCE guidelines, the Discussion and Closure are published together. This is in fact what you see at the first link I provided above. ASCE Guidelines also limit Closure papers to 2000 words. Seems only fair, right?

In May 2008, I learned that Dr. Bazant had finished his Closure paper and had published it at his NWU faculty website. So, I downloaded it and read it. I was startled by what I saw.

Dr. Bazant was allowed to go on and on for at least 4 to 5 thousand words in response to my Discussion paper. The original version of his Closure repeatedly derided me as a “lay person” and criticized my response as “wordy.” (If I’m a lay person, then a lay person was allowed by JEM to peer review his paper with Dr. Greening, which ultimately held up its publication for more than a year. Not bad for a lay person.) His Closure was also full of misrepresentations about my Discussion paper.

So, I sent a rather heated email to the JEM staff, asking them why Dr. Bazant was allowed to completely ignore the 2000 word limit in criticizing me and my Discussion paper, when I complied with it in good faith. I told them there were three ways to fairly resolve the situation.

First, JEM could pull my Discussion paper and his Closure paper from publication. JEM refused to do this. In hindsight, I’m actually glad they didn’t choose this option. The results of Dr. Bazant’s Closure paper are ludicrous, and demonstrate the utter bankruptcy of his theory. Even though I was treated unfairly, on balance I’m glad both papers were ultimately published.

Second, JEM could allow me to revise my paper free from the 2000 word limit I had originally complied with in good faith. If I was allowed to revise my paper without worrying about the word limit, I could have included all of my criticisms of his paper, and included mathematical equations to support my arguments. JEM refused to do this. This would have been the preferred option, but for some reason, I was not allowed to resubmit a revised paper exceeding the 2000 word limit.

Third, JEM could force Dr. Bazant to revise his paper to comply with the 2000 word limit. This was not preferable, but at least would have leveled the playing field. I would rather everyone have the same opportunity to fully develop their arguments and let the public decide who to believe. Unfortunately, this is not what ended up happening. After several rounds of email correspondence, JEM decided that they would ask Dr. Bazant to revise his paper to comply with the 2000 word limit, and remove the offensive language I had identified.

You can imagine my surprise again when I learned last week that both of our papers had been published in the October issue of JEM. I was never given another opportunity to review Dr. Bazant’s Closure paper before it was published. If you read through it, you can see why. Dr. Bazant was not required to comply with the 2000 word limit, as the JEM staff promised me he would. My rough estimate is that in his Closure’s response to my Discussion is between 4000 and 6000 words in length.

His Closure paper still derides me for not including equations in support of my position, without mentioning that there is no way I could have done that and still complied with the 2000 word limit, and that I was not allowed to revise my paper by JEM staff. Any fair peer review would not have allowed him to say this. JEM knew full well I was required to comply with the 2000 word limit, while Dr. Bazant was not.

In fact, he spends 2000 words responding to the steel temperature portion of my Discussion paper alone. JEM allowed him to use that much text to respond to my one paragraph on his misrepresentations of the steel temperatures reported by NIST. Dr. Bazant is clearly held to a different standard at JEM. How can JEM possibly be seen as a fair and balanced in this situation?

Dr. Bazant’s steel temperature response also raises a serious issue which should have been caught in a fair peer review process. He basically argues that even if he did misrepresent the steel temperatures NIST reported, that doesn’t matter because much lower steel temperatures would still have caused the collapse. However, that is a red herring. Even assuming Dr. Bazant is correct that lower steel temperatures could have caused the collapse, did that give him the right to misrepresent it in the first place? This was apparently never asked, and Dr. Bazant was allowed to mislead JEM readers with voluminous, irrelevant argument.

There are many other problems with Dr. Bazant’s Closure paper that should have been caught during peer review. I plan to write separately on all of them, but do need to mention one more. If you look at the first full sentence on page 919 at the first link above, you see the results of Dr. Bazant’s mathematical equations. He basically claims that when the upper block of floors impacts the lower, intact steel structure, that the upper block suffers a dent of between about 1 inch and 1.5 inches, before completely destroying the lower section of floors. Does that make any sense at all? An inch and a half dent? When the upper section of floors slams into the stationary steel structure below? The absolute absurdity of Dr. Bazant’s results is the main reason I’m happy his Closure was allowed to be published. Dr. Bazant appears to be going to extreme lengths to prop up the gravity-only driven collapse scenario. For clues as to why, I recommend page 4 of Kevin Ryan’s paper on the connections between NIST and nanothermite here: (PDF 82kb)


It's a lot easier to compete when you're on a level playing field.

Those who chide Gourley for the brevity or incompleteness of his response should now have a better grasp of his situation.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-24-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. That's a really lame excuse
If we were talking about a subjective political opinion, then sure, it would only be fair to give Gourley equal time to sway others. But that just isn't the case. Gourley had 2000 words to make his strongest case that Bazant's analysis was flawed, and what he did instead was amply demonstrate that he was manifestly unqualified to even discuss the subject. Giving him 10,000 words wouldn't change that fact; it would just be 8,000 more words of nonsense that would need to be refuted. Gourley's arrogance in thinking his opinions should have been given respect equal to Bazant's -- or that his comments should even be considered a "technical paper" regardless of his obvious ignorance -- is simply laughable. It seems to me that JEM let Bazant (politely) smack Gourley down because they felt Gourley richly deserved it, and I agree. "Scientific opinion" just doesn't mean what Gourley and other "truthers" think it means.
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