Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

An honest person would admit that this is a mighty strange "Boeing 757 crash" scene--

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 10:07 AM
Original message
An honest person would admit that this is a mighty strange "Boeing 757 crash" scene--
Edited on Sat Apr-11-09 10:51 AM by spooked911
and not simply accept the official story-- given the huge importance of 9/11 for our country:






(note the unburnt grass)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Perhaps if you could give us similar crash to compare it to
we wouldn't have to just accept your "expert" opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. a few points
1) I guess you're admitting you're not honest

2) I never said I was an expert (and why is "expert" in quotation marks?)

3) you must have seen other plane crash scenes before

4) what is your deal, anyway? Why is it so hard to admit this is strange?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. "you must have seen other plane crash scenes before"

Please show me one of these previous crashes into a worked-over strip mine.

I do not presume to know what any particular plane crash site, given the specific conditions of that crash, are going to look like.

When you show the previous crash sites, also make sure that you limit yourself to air crash situations in which the pilot was not trying to save the plane, but instead the plane was flying directly into the ground at an exceptionally high speed.

Thank you..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. please-- assuming you are honest--- use some logic
Edited on Sat Apr-11-09 12:38 PM by spooked911
all I'm asking is that you admit the shape of the crater and lack of debris to be odd.

Certainly there are plenty of crashes where the pilot couldn't save the plane and 99.99% of plane crashes leave significant debris.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Okay - I will use logic....

1. Fact - Soil at a reclaimed strip mine is disturbed and uncompacted to a significant depth, and is unlike soil at other types of locations.

2. Fact - Pilots are usually trying to save airplanes in distress prior to a crash, and try not to slam into the ground nose first at high speed.

3. Fact - I have never seen a crash site into a reclaimed strip mine.

4. Fact - I have never seen a crash site at which the pilot was not presumably trying to save the plane.

Conclusion 1 - I have no basis for determining whether the Flight 93 crash site is "odd", since its defining conditions are unlike anything I have seen.

Conclusion 2 - Because the defining conditions of the flight 93 crash are unlike anything I have seen, I expect it to look different from anything I have seen.

And, let's talk about "honesty" - I don't go by a name like "spooked911" because I do not have a reason to hide from my own stated views.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. you're dodging
and going after my user name is grasping at straws.

Why would I want to hide my identity when I talk about politically taboo topics? Gee, what a mystery.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
75. nope, sorry
Your inability to respect other people's honest responses reflects only upon you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NowHearThis Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
89. Conclusion 3
The flight 93 crash site wasn't a crash site at all, unless you define a crash site to include a specific spot where explosive devices were detonated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #89
96. That does not follow. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NowHearThis Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #96
103. Seems pretty clear & obvious.
Which part didn't you understand?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #103
111. Does not follow != I don't understand.
Your conclusion does not follow from the points in the post you responded to.

Even if you open the issue to all the available evidence it still does not follow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I am honestly confused by your OP
Edited on Sat Apr-11-09 11:59 AM by hack89
if your no-plane CT depends on the analysis of a crash site it would seem that you should be required to actually prove your assertion instead of just tossing out comments like it "looks strange".

I am assuming you have actually researched the issue - why are you so unwilling to share a fact or two?

As for your questions, I have seen other plane crashes before and I don't think the crash site is strange at all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I have analyzed it extensively and proved the crater is wrong
http://flight93hoax.blogspot.com/

As far as not being able to admit that this plane-silhouette-shaped debris-free crater to be the least bit strange, I can only say there is something the matter with you. Whether you are in denial or lying, I can't say for sure-- though given the amount of time you spend here, I can only assume you have a professional stake in this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. But we know it is not "debris free"
Edited on Sat Apr-11-09 02:12 PM by hack89
that is simply an unsupported assertion on your part. We have pictures of debris and eyewitness accounts of debris.

Face it, your entire CT depends on making liars out of hundreds of people that worked that crash site. That is the bedrock of your belief - you shouldn't be surprised when not everyone else accepts it.

Professional stake? So every one that disagrees with you is a government agent? Paranoid much - you really think the government is going to waste time on you? Seven years down the road and the truth movement has got nowhere. You are reduced to recycling seven year old "facts" - there has been nothing new for a very long time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Our cover is blown again hacked....

Spooked is keenly aware of the riches to be had by arguing in the DU 9/11 DUngeon, because if his postings here went uncontested, the entire oligarchy which pays us richly would collapse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Come off it hack...
we all know without our paid services spooked would have the entire country believing the WTCs were nuked inside a week.

BTW who's turn is it to pick up the coffee for the break room... we are getting short and I don't work well when where is too much blood in my caffeine system.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. US Navy, eh? That's new.
Edited on Sat Apr-11-09 05:52 PM by spooked911
Anyway, if it's such old stuff, going nowhere-- why are you wasting your time here?

I know-- it's so AMUSING.

Yeah.

Right.


Sure.

You're not an agent.

I get it.

You're just a fun-loving guy who likes the US Navy.

Awesome.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I am here for the give and take - it is entertaining.
I understand that if I wanted to effect change in the world, it wouldn't be on an obscure forum in an obscure web site. If what you do is so important, the real question is why are you wasting your time here?

I am a retired Navy officer - I have never hidden that fact. A hell of a cover for a paid government disinfo agent wouldn't you say?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. sorry, but I don't consider a former military officer
an honest broker when it comes to 9/11. The Navy has too many connections to 9/11.

Are you friends with Pinch aka Sweet Pea, by any chance?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Along with firefighters, policemen, scientists, politicians and anyone else
that disagrees with you. We have figured that out already.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I'm sure in the not too distant future spooked911 will
be convinced he and the Anonymous Physicist are the only two untainted souls left.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. yeah.
you and Hack are just ordinary guys, looking for laughs and a good debate...

I *GOT* it.

;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Here we are on an obscure web site debating a topic
that the rest of the world is ignoring - do you really think that this is place where the truth in being suppressed? I think you have an over inflated view of both yourself and your cause.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
66. this site-- squirreled away by DU-- is part of the larger operation of covering up the truth
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 01:14 PM by spooked911
and it is not so obscure as you make out, since I'm pretty sure it is one of the most active specialty forums of DU
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. "Covering up the truth" by giving you a forum for discussion...
of your theories? That seems counterproductive to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. So all twenty of us - half of whom are disinfo agents
are at one of the major hubs of the 911 truth movement? Got it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #66
92. Well, dang, Spooked....

You know that anyone can run their own site and publish as much truth as they can get their hands on.

How on earth can DU stop anyone from publishing anything?

Judy Wood, Richard Gage, and the whole crew are merrily running their own sites and nobody's covering up a thing they have to say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. That's pretty much it
Edited on Sat Apr-11-09 07:19 PM by LARED
Speaking for myself. Nice to see you get it. Finally
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #46
93. We printed that one out....

...and taped it over the water cooler at "that place".

Next time you come back from ops, check it out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Recommendation
up the meds if you think retired Navy Officers are somehow connected to 9/11
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. I still want to know why you are wasting your time on this site. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
59. Oh, so you don't believe any of the former military officers...

...who think 9/11 was an inside job?

...like that nut Bowman who ordained himself a bishop of his own church o' flakiness?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #29
61. I guess you're now going to toss out the opinions...
of all the former military who are listed at patriots question 9/11, right?

Sid
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-08-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #29
137. what do you do for a living?
besides play the piano?

Really curious what career you are in......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. by "debris-free" I mean free of large debris
I'm not counting miscellaneous shreds of material as significant debris.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Why would you expect large debris?
hitting the ground at over 500 knots nose first isn't going to leave big pieces. Lets not forget how fragile airplanes really are - basically very thin aluminum encompassing air(the fuselage) or fuel tanks (the wings).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. yeah-- funny how fragile they were when they hit the steel columns of the WTC
But in reality, some large pieces WOULD remain.

No way the plane would fragment completely into small pieces.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Still haven't grasped the concept of mass I see
if you don't want to take the time to understand basic physics then I can't help you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
64. I didn't say the plane couldn't penetrate the WTC
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 01:19 PM by spooked911
parts would-- but much would break apart and fly outside the hole-- it seems you don't seem to understand the concept of deflected debris.

By the way, if flight 93 acted like flight 175, all of the plane would have ended up in the ground!!!

So, since you don't seem to think this is the case, why do you think so much flight 93 debris was deflected away from the soft ground when flight 175 officially penetrated the steel columns and concrete floors of the WTC COMPLETELY?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Flt 93 exploded on impact - explosions are omni-directional
Fragments would be thrown into the air.

flight 175 penetrated thin plate steel and lightweight, non-reinforced concrete floors.

For example, the perimeter columns were hollow fabricated columns made of .25 inch steel plate. These are not massive, solid steel columns.

http://wtcmodel.wikidot.com/structural-data-wtc-1-2
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ryan_cats Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #71
90. That's a nifty site you linked to
I thought the plans for the WTC had been secretly hidden by Guilliany and the NWO so why are they here?

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/frames.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. no.
"1) I guess you're admitting you're not honest"
He did no such thing.

"2) I never said I was an expert (and why is "expert" in quotation marks?)"
You are asking us to take your word as to what to expect. That is asking us to treat you as an expert. The quotation marks are probably because nobody here believes you have relevant expertise in aircraft crashes, physics, or any other relevant field.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. it's really hard to believe you're so obnoxiously pedantic
my point remains, as any honest, clear-thinking person should see.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
73. other crashes


Picture shows an aerial view of the Vladivostokavia Tu-154 plane crash site, near the village of Burdakovka, 30 km away from Irkutsk, on Wednesday. — Reuters photo

www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010705/world.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BooBluePotion Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. spooked do you have any of those
black body bag pictures from Shanksville? You know the ones that Rumsfeld made sure to carry across the lawn for the Pentagon victims and then the firefighters used for the WTC victims? I'm sure there are some lying around the internet or old newspapers so could you post some please.

And if it's at all possible could you show the plane being pulled out of the ground?

Thanks in Advance
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. never seen any of those things
the only thing I've seen like that with Rumsfeld is the fragment of "flight 77" he kept in his office as a memento
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BooBluePotion Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
9.  Well then Flight 93 clean up must have been a blast
No mangled burned body parts to pluck from the trees, no luggage, and the plane disintegrated. The muslims were easily identified. The family members are silent.

This official story is squeaky clean nothing to see here. :sarcasm:

Honestly spooked I don't see a plane crash in any of those pictures what I see is a set up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. You have read the accounts of body parts, haven't you? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BooBluePotion Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. What happened hack?
I haven't read about the victims being pulled from the wreckage nor have I seen any pictures of human remain clean up. Actually I don't recall hearing anything about Flight 93 after 2001.

:shrug: What did you hear?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Perhaps you should do a little research
You might find out just how offensive those remarks of yours were.

Did you know that some passengers had remains recovered from all five search sectors? No, you didn't, did you, or you wouldn't have talked glibly about what a blast it must have been to clean up the remains.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BooBluePotion Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. So were those 5 sectors above ground
or below? What I'm getting at is an image of the entire plane impacting the ground at an angle and imbedding itself in the ground. Then there is also enough plane to scatter all over Shanksville and still manage to leave a sizeable crater, does this seem possible?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Just as I thought.
No shame. You knew exactly what you were saying when you posted such offensive things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BooBluePotion Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. I'm not being offensive Bolo
this is normal detective behavior. hack has proven that body parts were scattered in Shanksville from the article. Now I have to figure out how they became seperated from the whole plane but the plane is still able to make that crater.

So let me figure this out before you say anything else.

K?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Disgusting is what your little "detective behavior" is. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BooBluePotion Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I would do the same thing for you and your family
I have no hateful bone in my body but this story is fishy and I just bought a brand new fishing rod. Now where did you last see the victims after the crash?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. So let me figure this out before you say anything else.
Try this

Large commercial airliner impacts ground at around 1/2 mile per sec.

Similar speed in crash seen here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q35xHzjxB0
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BooBluePotion Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Something is wrong with that link
it's frozen right now but tell me what you saw.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. The link works fine for me
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Here's plenty of people who saw human remains.


"After calling for backup from several area fire companies, King and the other firefighters, who had never responded to an airplane crash, surveyed the scene. None of them was prepared for what they saw. King recalls the paper strewn in the trees and clothing and shoes scattered on the ground. There were no bodies, he says. Just body parts. 'That's when the sheer destruction of the crash really hit home,' he says."



http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/sept11stonycreekjan02.p...

King is also the Assistant Fire Chief of the Shanksville Volunteer Fire Department. He was one of the first emergency workers at the scene of the crash.

The morning of the crash, King was watching the events of Sept. 11th unfold on television in disbelief. King called his sister, and as they were talking, she paused and told him that she could hear a low flying jet flying near her house. King knew all planes were ordered out of the sky, but kept in mind that some of the planes were reported missing. Seconds later, the plane hit, the impact shaking the town. King ran to the firehall, jumped into the fire truck with 4 other firefighters and raced off to the crash site.

"I felt it was too coincidental not to be related to what was going on. I didn't think that Shanksville was a target of terrorists attacks, I just didn't know what was going on,' said King. He was not sure what scene to expect at the crash site. When King and his crew arrived, they saw what smoking pieces remained of the plane. “There were small pieces everywhere and small signs of human remains. It was total destruction.”




Excerpts from "Courage After the Crash: Flight 93" by Glenn J. Kashurba. SAJ Publishing, 2002.

King: "We stopped and I opened the door. The smell of jet fuel was overpowering. I will never forget that smell; it is really burnt into my mind. ...I walked down the power line and got my first glimpse of human remains. Then I walked a little further and saw more."

Shanksville VFD firefighter Keith Curtis: "I walked up to where the tire was on fire, probably a hundred feet past the crater. It was a big tire. I was thinking that this is a big jet. I hit it good with the hose and put it out. I stopped and 'poof,' it just started on fire again."

Firefighter Mike Sube: "We made our way to a small pond. That's where I observed the largest piece of wreckage that I saw, a portion of the landing gear and fuselage. One of the tires was still intact with the bracket, and probably about three to five windows of the fuselage were actually in one piece lying there. ...There were enough fires that our brush truck was down there numerous times. ...I saw small pieces of human remains and occasionally some larger pieces. That was disturbing, but what was most disturbing was seeing personal effects."

Lieutenant Roger Bailey, Somerset Volunteer Fire Department: "We started down through the debris field. I saw pieces of fiberglass, pieces of airplane, pop rivets, and mail...Mail was scattered everywhere. ...the one guy who was with us almost stepped on a piece of human remains. I grabbed him, and he got about half woozy over it."

Reporter Jon Meyer, WJAC-TV, Johnstown: "There was a spot at the end where the emergency crews were gathering. I could see that it was smoking and burning a little bit. So I ran as fast as I could towards that spot. I ran right up to the crater. I was standing a few feet away, looking down into it. I was overwhelmed by the crater's depth and size, but there was nothing that I could identify as having been an airplane, except that there was this incredibly strong smell of jet fuel."

Gerry Parry, Berlin Volunteer Fire Department: "I stopped and talked to the custodian, Don Stutzman. He and a teacher, Mike Sheeler, and I were standing in the corner of the parking lot when we felt and heard the explosion. If I had been turned the other direction, I might have seen it go down. We saw the smoke immediately. ...It felt too large to be a strip mine explosion, and usually, we have some idea when they are going to happen."

Bill Baker, Somerset County Emergency Management Agency: "There was debris everywhere. You couldn't step without walking on a piece of plane part, fabric, or some kind of debris. When they said it was a 757, I looked out across the debris field. I said, "There is no way there is a 757 scattered here. At that time, we didn't know that it was in the hole. The jet fuel smell was really strong...There were plane parts hanging in the trees."




When former firefighter Dave Fox arrived at the scene, "He saw a wiring harness, and a piston. None of the other pieces was bigger than a TV remote. He saw three chunks of torn human tissue. He swallowed hard. 'You knew there were people there, but you couldn't see them,' he says." Source


Local FBI agent Wells Morrison told author Glenn Kashurba what he saw when he arrived at the crash site: "We arrived in the immediate area and walked up to the crater and the burning woods. My first thought was, 'Where is the plane?' Because most of what I saw was this honeycomb looking stuff, which I believe is insulation or something like that. I was not seeing anything that was distinguishable either as human remains or aircraft debris." (Glenn Kashurba, Courage After the Crash, 2002, p. 110)


Faye Hahn, an EMT, responded to the first reports of the crash. She says: "Several trees were burned badly and there were papers everywhere. We searched. ... I was told that there were 224 passengers, but later found out that there were actually forty. I was stunned. There was nothing there." (David McCall, From Tragedy to Triumph, 2002, pp. 31-32)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. An honest person would admit that it is mighty strange
that there are people that think

1. no plane crashed in Shanksvills
2. no plane crashed because they looked at a hole in the ground made by a commercial aircraft travel around 1/2 mile per second in a near vertical position, and somehow think they should know what the hole is supposed to look like.
3. implying that 99 percent of the rest of the world is dishonest because they don't believe the truther tripe is an engaging strategy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BooBluePotion Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. We could go and visit the grave sites of these brave Americans
I'm sure our government wouldn't mind us paying respect to the heroes of Flight 93 by visiting their sacred resting places. What do you think?

Let's look up these Obituaries in their Local newspapers to see where they are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Is it your goal to be as offensive as possible about this event?
Because if it is, you are succeeding.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BooBluePotion Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. No way Bolo
my intentions are to prove you are correct and this is a non issue or I'm correct and we're being led astray.

Just think about what I'm saying here all we have to do is Google Earth the final resting place of all the victims and prove they died in the crash because all the tombstones will have 9/11 as the date of death.

They should be easy to locate in their hometown local newspapers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Have fun storming the castle. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. In fact, many are easy to locate

Others have no final resting place than the memorial at Shanksville, as the "remains" of the passengers were fragmentary at best.



Photo of Waleska Martinez' grave at Borinquen Memorial park in Caguas, Puerto Rico
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Do you honestly think that would prove anything to truthers
Outside of how offensive your notion is, it would do no good to visit graves. If the government could plant commercial airliner parts underground, set fires to the surrounding woods, plant body parts, fake radio transmissions, plant DNA of hijackers, etc in Shanksville, faking a grave is small potatoes.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
98. Here you start
You can start by calling their families.

http://www.flight93memorialsfb.com/index.html

or perhaps you can contact this group and tell them it is based on a lie.

http://www.dbpt.org/

http://www.flight93memorialsfb.com/Heros-Of-Flight-93/pages/Deora-Bodley_jpg.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. This site, just like every other 911 site (pentagon, wtc...), looks nothing like one would expect
Edited on Sat Apr-11-09 02:30 PM by whatchamacallit
They are all profoundly peculiar. Of course as you'd expect, OCT acolytes are not confident enough in their beliefs to cede any ground whatsoever. They prefer to plunge themselves into self deception, refusing to admit even the slightest anomaly. Rather weak minded really.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
51. The funny thing is
if this was in fact a competition of ideas, we are winning in the real world. The Obama birthers are more prominent then 911 truthers. Even Philip Berg has jumped ship.

So perhaps you need to re-evaluate who is involved in self deception.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
22. Strange != Fake...nt
Sid
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. All crash sites look strange.
And ones where the pilot was unable to (or didn't) get the plane at least somewhat level doubly so.
At least to untrained eyes.

What specifically do you think is SO strange that it supports your claim that this could not be a crash site.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. specifically
the lack of large debris and the plane-shaped crater
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. With a 40 degree impact angle
wouldn't the nose and wings hit first? Leaving a crater just like we see? What exactly should the crater look like?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. I that case, where is the tail section?
Wouldn't it be on top of the rest of the debris? Instead we have a mostly empty hole and a couple of empty slots.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. No
why is it that truthers consistently underestimate the forces involved in violent events? The g forces the tail was subjected to were enormous - a 155 foot airplane traveling at 830 feet per second came to a complete stop within a fraction of a second. It was ripped to pieces.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. So you are telling me it vaporized when it hit the ground then?
That is why there is not much debris?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. No
it was in a lots of little pieces. What makes you think there was not much debris?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
62. An honest person wouldn't post this on his website
Here's the best possible match of a Boeing 757 with the Shanksvile crater, given the official trajectory of inverted impact, with the plane traveling in the basic direction of the top of the photo:



Fraud.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. that's funny coming from you!
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 01:10 PM by spooked911
seeing how my alignment is similar to yours but with a better fit of the wings!

why do you think it is fraudulent?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. It's a fraud
... because you know that isn't the "best possible match of a Boeing 757 with the Shanksvile crater."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. I honestly have not seen a better fit
with the caveat that I basically used lines to represent a B757 and didn't use a scale B757 model because that's an even worse fit-- as you've seen yourself.

The point of course, as we've gone over, is that the fuselage doesn't fit into the crater if you line up the "wing gashes" and if the plane is inverted-- as was the official story.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Total bullshit
Your diagram doesn't account for either the perspective of the photo or the fact that the plane did not come from exactly the same angle as that photo was taken. How can you possibly call that the "best possible match of a Boeing 757" when you've seen this one, which does, and which is scaled properly?



You said you couldn't see where the fuselage went into the crater, insisting that part of the crater is just a "shallow depression" even after being shown the proof that it's a straight wall all the way to the deepest part of the crater:



And now you think you can dredge up the same failed arguments and pass them off on the credulous? Fraud.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. your alignment of the left wing is bullshit
your left wing is NOT hitting the wing gash. If you aligned it, then the fuselage would be even further out of the little depression you insist is what the fuselage scraped out before sliding further up and gouging out the massive crater.

Remember, the left engine, which you have not accounted for, should line up with at least the middle of that charred side hole. Instead you have the engine hitting the top of the charred side hole, leaving the lower part of the charred hole mysteriously unexplained.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Sheesh, here we go again
Edited on Mon Apr-13-09 09:06 AM by William Seger
No, Spooky, both wings in my diagram are aligned with the wing gashes. You are simply misinterpreting where the gashes are, perhaps because of the lighting in the photo or perhaps because your conspiracy-fevered brow is distorting your vision. Those things may also have something to do with your inability see that the "little depression" is a straight wall going all the way into the deepest part of the crater, as clearly seen in the photo from the other side, but I attribute that mostly to your general inability to analyze 2D photos in 3D. It wasn't "scraped out" and there was no "sliding further up and gouging out the massive crater." That wall of the crater is at the same angle that the plane hit, indicating that the fuselage just cut straight into that soft dirt, pushing a lot of dirt up in the direction the plane was going, but apparently very little was thrown back in the direction it came from.

The engines? This graphic isn't exactly right for showing the approach angle, but it shows pretty well where the engines hit:


This is pretty simple, Spooky: You really need to come up with some 9/11 conspiracy theory that allows a 757 to crash into that crater in Shanksville, because the more you try to prove that it didn't happen, the more ridiculous you look. Maybe you can help Woody Box figure out that "two planes" business.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. and you're still wrong
you're very full of yourself, and very good with the insults-- but your spatial analysis is flat-out wrong.

One more time-- you are not aligning the left wing with the gash at all. You're on the topmost edge, which might be okay if the plane were traveling top to bottom, but it's not-- it's going bottom to top in that diagram, and thus the wing should hit on the lower edge of the gash as the wing's momentum would smash it upwards-- NOT BACKWARDS AS YOUR DIAGRAM IMPLIES!

And once more with feeling--- the little gully you say the fuselage made is really not in the right place for an inverted 757.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
63. Obviously, that crater couldn't possibly be made from detonating
Edited on Sun Apr-12-09 11:24 AM by Old and In the Way
a container full of scrap metal and a few sides of beef.

What I wonder about is that plume of smoke....where is the sooty fuel burn?

<>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-12-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
72. I guess they tried to carve out trenches to look like wings!
planes don't crash like that!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #72
82. I agree
did you see they even made a "tail" mark?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
78. Yes, that is indeed a strange photo...one of MANY strange things re 9/11 that don't add up
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scrinmaster Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
79. Watching a troofer try to explain his theory
is just like watching a creationist point to the platypus. "I don't understand it, therefore, god-did-it."
And posting some stupid Alex Jones Loose Change bullshit is just like creationists using the bible to prove the bible correct.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. so there's nothing strange about this at all to you?
you know-- it's ok to admit it is strange w/o invoking a conspiracy.

In any case, I'll waiting for your explanation of this plane-shaped crater with no large debris.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #79
83. So what's your message to the christian OCTists on this board?
Just wondering...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. Why are you isolating the Christians here?
I personally am an atheist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Me, too...
and have been an atheist since I was about 12. I also am not an "OCTist", as I have pointed out many times, there are multiple sources for information about 9/11. It's also a false dilemma to claim or otherwise imply that one only has two choices - be a "truther" or an "OCTist". This is nothing more than a variation of Bush's equally stupid, "you're either with us or against us".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. Two things
Edited on Thu Apr-16-09 03:57 PM by whatchamacallit
#1 I don't have any interest in harassing christians or any -ians. They have a right to their beliefs and I support that. However, when I repeatedly see OCTists attempt to insult CTers by comparing their 9/11 theories to the "delusional religious beliefs" of creationists, I feel compelled to point out that some of the regulars of your group *actually* hold those beliefs. Apparently, you are unable to appreciate the irony as you simultaneously tar us with what you ignore in them.

#2 This one is really simple so I know you can follow along. If you don't want to be called an "OCTist" apply the golden rule and stop calling others "CTers" and "Truthers".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. What's wrong with "truthers"?
I think it's hysterical that you think it's somehow being tarred. Your insulting tone is what triggers my disdain "This one is really simple so I know you can follow along"). I think you'd find that if "your side" quits insulting people who merely disagree on the facts and, more importantly, quits questioning our motivation (I DESPISE George Bush and I would venture to saythat most of "my side" does also), you might be pleasantly surprised. I also happen to be right about the false dilemma. One certainly has more than two choices in the matter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #87
91. "some of the regulars of your group *actually* hold those beliefs"
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 10:39 AM by jberryhill
Who in this group on DU is a creationist?

Steven Jones - the physicist who promotes the thermite stuff, has also written in support of Mormon Archaeology, but that never causes much concern around here.

And, as far as creationists having a "right to their beliefs" - they certainly do. What they do *not* have a right to do is to force the teaching of their religious doctrines in public schools.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #91
94. Especially when they try to call it "science"
I was just fine with learning science at school and creationism at Sunday school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #91
102. So it's safe to assume you reject the book of Genesis?
Which parts are the "real" parts?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. As an explanation of physical science?

Of course I reject it as a science text.

The parts about, say:

- women are responsible for all of the evil in the world

- it's a sign of "righteousness" to want to kill your infant son if voices in your head tell you to

- every animal is descended from a breeding group which disembarked from a boat in Turkey

are downright silly and stupid.

Now, if you ask me "Do I believe that a boy named Huck and a slave named Jim traveled the Mississippi River?", my answer is no. If you ask me if people take worthwhile inspiration from the story of Huck Finn, the answer is "Of course." Some people come away from the Bible with good ideas, and some people come away from it with ideas that are utterly atrocious.

I guess I just don't get your question, but I have indeed gotten into arguments with creationists, and there are habits of mind which are quite similar to those of no-planers, CD'ers, and so forth.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. So for you the whole kit & kaboodle is allegory
and you accept no part of the bible as fact?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. WTF?
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 06:33 PM by jberryhill
I have no idea what you are asking. The Old Testament is a collection of oral traditions, eventually in written form, of a particular bronze age tribe. It is no more or less likely to "contain fact" as, say, Homer.

Now, did Homer's writings lead to the re-discovery of Troy? Sure. Did it mean that some god named Achilles dragged Hector around it by his hair? Probably not.

Clearly there is compelling archaeological evidence for the existence of the bronze age civilization described in the Old Testament unlike, say, the pre-Columbian American civilization described in the Book of Mormon.

The book "Huckleberry Finn" describes a 19th Century American culture which indeed existed along the quite real Mississippi River, and "Huck Finn" is an accurate record of important characteristics of that culture. The non-reality of the characters in it have no bearing on the accuracy of the cultural portraits in the book.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. Are you telling me there is no...
Paul Bunyan or Babe the Ox? But, it was set in Minnesota, which is a real state, so it must be true! I hate you damn debunkers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #112
116. Here... have a picture...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. Let me try again
Do you believe the son of God walked the earth as Jesus?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. Wow, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition
Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 12:04 AM by jberryhill
But, what the heck...

I conditionally believe that if there is an intelligent, creative and loving force behind the apparent universe, that it is capable of reconciling limited and flawed humans to it.

Whether one needs to personalize that in any of several redemptive myths - a Bodhisattva, Jesus, or what have you - is not IMVHO material to the theme of forgiveness, redemption and reconciliation transmitted by those myths.

I further find the notion of God running some kind of "Let's Make A Deal" game show in which you are asked to choose whatever is behind Curtain 1, 2, or 3, with Heaven or Hell hanging in the balance, is such a ridiculous God that I would just as soon not spend eternity with it. If one is to believe that humans are made in the "image of God", and in particular with an ability to reason, then this God apparently intended us to put that ability to reason to good use in making sense of our world and ourselves.

A God that would punish people for using reason to work things out is, again, not worthy of the title.

It certainly doesn't matter to me whether anyone else chooses to find meaning in any particular mythic expression of divine themes.

It does matter to me a great deal whether others use their favored mythology as an excuse for not engaging in rational approaches to either public policy or science education.

I am certain God has walked the earth as Jesus. I am equally certain God has walked the earth as Jim, Denise, Bob, Alice, Beauregard, Ahmed, Kim, Ivan, Nguyen, Juan, Prabakhar, and Dweezil.

Especially Dweezil. I saw him live a few weeks back, and I am certain of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #114
115. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #114
117. let me help here...
god is love
love is blind
stevie wonder is blind
therefore, stevie wonder is god
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #117
118. Nailed it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #114
120. Thanks for that
I appreciate your answer. Sorry if the question seemed a bit intrusive, but understanding your beliefs is the best way for me to avoid misrepresenting them (which I apparently have).

Peace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #120
121. The remaining mystery

...is what my religious beliefs have to do with the physical events of 9/11.

I used to work in an engineering research environment and we had, literally, believers in just about any religious system you can pick - and they were all damned fine competent engineers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #121
123. As I stated elsewhere
I find it ironic that a favorite OCT insult is to compare CTers to creationists, even though some OCTers are christians. I understand that not all christians are creationists, or accept everything in the bible in a literal sense, but for many of us it's hard to understand how you can believe in any of it, if not all of it. Simply put, I think it's disingenuous for people who believe in "things unseen" to beat up on others for theories deemed to be lacking in "hard scientific evidence".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #123
124. Creationism is foolish nonsense

"Creationism" is a proposed "scientific" theory which does not withstand rational scrutiny on its on terms - i.e. as a scientific theory. It is perfectly appropriate to call it foolish nonsense.

"Christianity" (or indeed Islam or any other religion with a creation myth) is a religious belief which does not claim to be a scientific theory. There is no point in arguing about religious beliefs from a scientific standpoint, so long as they do not hold themselves out as scientific theories. Then, they would be perfectly fair game.

Certainly creationists are motivated by religious beliefs. That does not make creationism worthy of any respect. Proposed scientific theories must earn respect by the rules of that particular game - they do not inherit any respect simply because they are motivated by any particular religious belief. Christian creationism, as a scientific theory, is every bit as stupid as Islamic creationism, Native American creationism, or any other non-evidence based explanation of the diversity of life forms on earth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #120
129. You are welcome

Now, there are some direct questions addressed to you in another thread, awaiting replies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #87
100. IIRC some people here have self identified as 'truthers'.
I have never seen anyone self identify as an 'OCTer' except in jest.

I am sure people on both sides of the debate are creationists. What is at issue is the similarity in argumentation between those who argue for some CTs and those who argue for creationism.

With regard to who actually is a creationist you should also be careful as if one were to limit that to people active in the 9-11 forum on DU I am unconvinced you could show anyone on 'this side' of the argument was a creationist, while several on 'your side' can be shown to be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
86. Did they did the plane pieces out of the hole?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NowHearThis Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
95. A knowledgeable person would wonder why anyone would,,.
still assert that a plane crashed at that location.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. knowledgeable of what exactly? (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #95
101. It might have something to do with the first-hand accounts of first responders and..
the news from the county coroner that he identified the remains of the plane's passengers by their DNA. BTW, from here on out, I am invoking "Lared's rule", i.e., I don't waste time talking to "no-planers".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NowHearThis Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. The coroner has magical powers?
Sounds like the coroner received some "helpful" advice from "fake planers".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Now you're impugning the coroner of a small town in PA?
Do you even know the coroner's name? What magical powers are you referring to?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NowHearThis Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. No, no. You're wrong. Maybe you misunderstood.

I was being facetious. It appears that the gentleman momentarily lost his understanding of the meaning in politics of "go along to get along." But he came around and that's that. I take it that you support his stories in full, is that correct?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Do you even know the name of the coroner?
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 05:52 PM by SDuderstadt
You are suggesting he is "in on it"? And, your evidence is?

Does it go like this? Did the perps just call up all the local coroners in PA and say, "Hey, listen...there's going to be a UAL jet crash somewhere in the state - we're not exactly sure where yet - but, if it's in your area, can you make sure you arrive there quickly and help us with a coverup? Oh, yeah, we'll also need you to clue all the first responders in on it and get their cooperation. We'll also need you to fake all the DNA ID's of the victims.".

One question: Are you a "no-planer"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NowHearThis Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #108
119. You have a vivid imagination.
Sorry for being so understated, but that's how you come across. BTW - are you a "fake planer"? "CGI planer"? Or garden variety kool aid drinker?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #119
122. i am invoking the ''lared rule''...
i don't waste time with ''no-planers''. bye...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NowHearThis Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #122
125. It's unproductive to waste time with anyone - even CGI-planers.
Bye.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. Did you just accuse SD of claiming the planes were CGI? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. i took it to mean the poster (whom i believe to be a ''no-planer''...
believes that i have been duped (by cgi) into believing i actually saw the 2nd plane hit on live tv. how a ''no-planer'' reasons that the ''perps'' were somehow able to control all video/photograpic images that day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NowHearThis Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. Never underestimate the power of the perps to create mischief
However, the named 9/11 perps were "perps" in name only. And Bush isn't one of them. I think it's very possible that even to this
day former President George W. Bush doesn't have a clue about Operations Northwood, the Gulf of Tonkin incidents, who killed the
Kennedys etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
97. An Honest person
would admit that posting the same argument over and over again is called trolling.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jules4truth Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
130. Hadn't seen that second image.
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 12:37 AM by jules4truth
Certainly interesting. Inspiring curiosity seems healthy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Slick Nick Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
131. looks like a bomb was dropped on the field
and you're right, no burnt grass anywhere. this crash is the most absurd i've ever seen. where's the plane!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. Are you a no planer?
It is a useful bit of information to share so that people will know the extent of your intellectual capacity.

Oh, and welcome to the dungeon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NowHearThis Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. Are you an UNtruther, CGI planer, BSinformationist, Anti-truther...
or something else, which under DU rules can't be asked?

It would be interesting to have you actually confirm that so DUers will know the extent of your bias and have actual
confirmation of your tolerance and goodwill - straight from the username horse's mouse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. It is not against DU rules to ask someone if they think planes were actually used in this attack.
Please learn the difference.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. Answers
Are you an UNtruther, CGI planer, BSinformationist, Anti-truther...


No, No, No, and No

That was not hard was it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. What about the thing we cannot ask?
Are you that? Because inquiring minds want to know (but can't ask, because asking such a question is verboten).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC