Kerosene.

Kerosene. That's what "jet fuel" is.

I use it every winter in a tiny little metal heater. Doesn't seem to melt the metal in that baby. Wonder how it melted (sorry, "softened") high-grade steel and cause molten steel (sorry, unidentified metal) to pour out of windows like a river. That sure is a weird thing from a kerosene fire...

Oh well, don't want to upset the apple cart. Forget I even mentioned it.

Dispersed over several floors of a huge office building and ignited all at once.

Ever stood next to a small campfire? Ever tried to stand next to a roaring bonfire? It's all wood burning at the same rate. What's the difference?

Do you know what those limits are?

It's almost like you're trying to make people who question the events of 9/11 look ridiculous.

Jetfuel is a hydrocarbon! As is plastic and diesel fuel. The maximum temps achievable with any hydrocarbon fuels is about 1800 degrees F.!
And that's under ideal conditions. :eyes:

Wood.

Wood in small campfire.

Wood in huge bonfire.

Same wood. Burns at the same temperature.

And yet one is cool enough to get right next to, and the other is unapproachable.

Why is that, Wildbill? I think you understand this.

Please confirm that you're not that misinformed.

might have a higher burn temperature than the kerosene, greyl. :popcorn:

Haven't you ever studied heat transfer?

OTOH many of them are better at recognizing problems that may be outside of their expertise and deferring to those with a better understanding of the concepts involved.

I have long lost all patience with those who think their layperson's understanding is sufficient to analyze problems well beyond their grasp.

Do you think the Harrit paper has been debunked?

Funny that somebody thought that piece of shit would pass for a work of science.

"I have long lost all patience with those who think their layperson's understanding is sufficient to analyze problems well beyond their grasp."

Regurgitation is about the extent of your capabilities. Too bad you can't figure out those who you have chosen as sources are regarded as laughing stocks by the scientific and engineering communities.

"Ever stood next to a small campfire? Ever tried to stand next to a roaring bonfire?" I'm not made of steel! :eyes:

and the heat from those fires would not have been hot enough to do anything

to the steel beams . . . plus we're supposed to believe that an aluminum plane

not only sliced right thru steel facade built to withstand such an impact --------

-----------------------------but sliced all the way thru to the center corp of steel!!!


Also -- the fires could not have in any way harmed the STEEL below the impact area --

yet supposedly these buildings just toppled down in sympathy with the upper floors?

Absolute nonsense.

a fire based on contents is no where near hot enough to do anything to steel --

and supposedly . . . not only did these aluminum planes cut thru steel buildings

like butter -------------------------------- but they traveled all the way thru to

the central core of the building knocking that out!!!!

Ah, those aluminum planes and kerosene -- magic together!!!

:rofl:



Sid

Glad you kept it.

tiny little metal heater was designed to burn kerosene.

Possibly one of the many reasons it doesn't melt or soften.

I am also willing to wager if you use a cardboard box as your kerosene heater it would not turn out well.

Silly me, I thought they had steel frames. I'm not a truther, but that's one of the silliest analogies I've read in a while.

why does fire code require exposed structural steel in buildings to have spray on fireproofing?

somone needs to tell these folks they are waisting everyones time.

http://www.albi.com/

to "simulate" the WTC collapses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFVoencqfZw

If you light kerosene in places it is not designed to burn, particularly in an area full of combustibles like the WTC, things go badly and unexpectedly.

and if you light kerosene in places it is not designed to burn, it's still a kerosene fire! maybe with some wood and paper and plastic thrown in. None of which burns hotter that any hydrocarbons. :eyes:

so go look it up if you forgot.
Not hot enough to do this:

Let's take a water pipe connected to a water tank. Only so much water can ever come out of that tank, and only so much water at a time can come out of the pipe.

Now suppose there are 100,000 water tanks all connected to their own water pipe, and all of those pipes are hooked up into your house. And then suppose someone opens up every one of those pipes at the same time and lets all of that water, all at once, flood your house.

What you are arguing is that all of that water could not have come from those pipes, because only so much water can come out of the pipe at one time. What you're ignoring is that all of the pipes are open at the same time.

That's what's going on here. Any fuel for a fire has a finite amount of energy to release. It also burns at a specific rate. Yet if you have a whole lot of fuel burning all at the same time, then all of that energy is being released together in the same space. And even if hydrocarbon burns at a specific temperature, the actual temperature (the measurement of heat energy in an area) is going to skyrocket well above that burn rate.

How can you not understand this?

between temperature and heat.

Sid

His post is still bullshit.

It looks like you're just trying to re-convince yourself in the face of contradictory evidence.

I know you will never be persuaded and that's not my problem. And there has been no contradictory evidence, only contradictory opinions.

He's been posting the same garbage here for years. I guess some concepts are just beyond his grasp.

You've really gone over huh. :eyes:

Unfortunately, so are you.

but it doesn't matter because I know the answer. but am afraid you don't based on your posts to date.

They weren't made of wood, they were made of chicken wire.

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metal kerosene heater when it is cold and then do the same thing when it is hot; which makes a bigger dent?

hit the heater, NOT your forehead

:rofl:

"knock yourself out", dude.

Do you actually think that heated metal has the same properties as room temperature metal?

You ass/u/me too much!

I didn't assume anything; I was going by what you said.

You said "I get the same dent. nt"

Unless you hit the metal on the heater with a different force you would not get the same size dent. You would not get the same size dent because when metal is heated it becomes more malleable. You either know this and are willfully lying or you are ignorant and your opinion at this juncture is useless.

force of the blow, at what temperature the metal was heated to. You didn't specify. :eyes: If you don't know that those factors would play a role then...
"You either know this and are willfully lying or you are ignorant and your opinion at this juncture is useless."

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I see you are incapable of holding a conversation; is that purposeful on your part or are you incapable?

it matters not to anyone but yourself what you think of my abilities !

So if you hit the same little kerosene stove with the same hammer with the same force ('same' being the operative word here), you would expect a larger dent when it is hot. At least, anyone with a clue would.

BTW, it is nice to have at least one voice on the other side that doesn't sound like an obnoxious teenager. so thanks for not sinking to the level of the dungeon dwelling duo.

is at room temperature; same thing with steel. You don't have to heat steel to the melting point to get it to the point where it could not hold up the building anymore.

there isn't convincing evidence that those parameters were reached IMHO.

that I was trying to proffer convincing evidence that those parameters were reached?

I can only assume you can't. :shrug:

When combined with liquid oxygen kerosene becomes RP-1. The key to kerosene's high performance under certain conditions has a lot to do with how much oxygen it gets.

The hole caused by the aircraft in the big towers, combined with its high relative altitude and higher winds, created furnace-like conditions with plenty of moving air and plenty of fuel to burn. Why WTC-7 went down in the same way is a mystery to me, but I'm now leaning toward the explanation that 40,000 gallons of poorly-placed diesel fuel had a lot to do with it.

Consider also that humans have been able to create the conditions necessary for making steel for 4000 years, with fuels much less useful than kerosene. The methodology is instructive, though. Furnaces were built on hilltops which got a lot of wind, so that a large and constant supply of air was available. That's what enabled the high temperatures necessary for making steel. So we shouldn't be too surprised to see similar conditions yield the same results.

Who let those planes crash into the buildings is an entirely different story.

It also eliminated the damage from debris as contributing to why the collapse started. It contributed to how the building fell once the building started, but the cause turned out to be thermal expansion of long beams over the WTC exit ramp knocking a key support loose, causing a localized collapse that left column 79 unsupported over the height of several floors.

the inanities of thought connected to 9/11 . . . but the right wingers knew

that people wouldn't really question any of this --

Yes -- aluminum plane cuts thru steel !!!!

Ye-gads . . . when will they give that up???

We also have an obvious situation where 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen ...

but few question how much earlier this might have been going on -- and what

role the "MSM" plays in it all !!!

the apple cart has rolled way down the street from here --

this is kindergarden and DU is wallowing in it --

We have to begin to acknowledge and look clearly at involvement of the corporate

press in all of this -- as they are linked to stolen elections!

D&P.

... to see if the heat from hydrocarbon fuel combustion can have an effect on metal.

Step 1:  Procure an automobile with a water cooled internal combustion engine.
Step 2:  Completely drain (as much as possible) all coolant from radiator, reservoir tank, and engine.
Step 3:  Start the engine and let it idle for 8 hours.
Step 3a: If at any time the engine stalls, restart it.
Step 4:  Take automobile to a repair facility for evaluation of the engine.
Step 5:  Reply to this post with the results of the experiment.


ETA:

WARNING: I only recommend this experiment for the opening poster so that he can compare and contrast the results with his evaluation of the performance of his kerosene heater. PLEASE NO ONE ELSE ATTEMPT THIS TEST.

was a good example of the energy in kerosene.

700 gallons ignited under a steel beam under load rapidly reached a temperature of 2000 F and caused the I beam to completely fail in 5 minutes.

of the kind of bullshit some people will swallow. :shrug:

Sid

Sid.