Administration version of 9/11 unraveling; new evidence refutes

NY firefighters say 9-11 Black Boxes were found by firefighters; and Administration has covered them up.
http://www.bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4772

(and other sites)

Seismic Data: Two Huge Energy Bursts Under WTC Towers New Seismic Data

Seismic Data: Two Huge Energy Bursts Under WTC Towers New Seismic Data
Refutes Official Explanation Of Collapses
Address:http://www.rense.com/general60/seis.htm

probably be moved to the 9/11 Forum under Archived Forums. This isn't about Election Results. Peace. :hi:

it gets me so angry to know that b*sh is responsible for the mass murder at the WTC, and at the same time uses it for his campaign strategy.

I think those pages had solid evidence of Saudi involvement. And, remember who is all chummy-chummy with the Chimp? I've always believed these PNACers have planned this. They needed their new Pearl Harbor. They wanted us to have a boogyman (Osama) and get angry enough to rally behind their illegal Middle Eastern oil wars and be scared enough to give up our freedoms, hence the unPatriot I & II. This has been all part of the Neocon/PNAC plan to set up a solid dictatorship in the US.

Like they'll find Osama, yeah, right!

And how they wouldn't come out with the report before the election.
And the phoney terrorist threats we kept getting here in NYC. Funny, how the day after Election Day, for the first time since 9/11, New York City's color alert went down to YELLOW!

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
July 29, 2003
President's schedule
Readout on meeting with Prime Minister SHARON
Declassification of 9/11 papers
Saudi Arabia reaction
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/07/20030729-8.html

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
July 30, 2003
Q Mr. President, thank you. You met yesterday (See JULY 29, 2003) with the Saudi Foreign Minister, who wants the administration to declassify these 27 or 28 pages about his government in this report on 9/11. Many members of Congress, including several Republicans, say they see nothing, or at least most of the materials, in their view, could be made public. Can you tell us, is there any compromise in sight on this, and could you at least summarize the material in that classified document? Is there, as some members of Congress say, material that you could read and have an incriminating view of the Saudi government when it comes to 9/11?

THE PRESIDENT: John, the Foreign Minister did come and speak to me. And I told him this: I said, we have an ongoing investigation about what may or may not have taken place prior to September the 11th. And therefore, it is important for us to hold this information close so that those who are being investigated aren't alerted.

I also told him, in the document, that if we were to reveal the content of the document, 29-pages of a near 900-page report, it would reveal sources and methods. By that, I mean it would show people how we collect information and on whom we're collecting information, which, in my judgment, and in the judgment of senior law enforcement officials in my administration, would be harmful on the war against terror.

I just described to you that there is a threat to the United States. And I also said, we're doing a better job of sharing intelligence and collecting data so we're able to find -- able to anticipate. And what we really don't want to do, it doesn't make sense to me -- seem like to me is to reveal those sources and methods.

Now, at some point in time, as we make progress on the investigation, and as a threat to our national security diminishes, perhaps we can put out the document. But in my judgment, now is not the time to do so.

And I made that clear to him. And I will be glad -- I'm making it clear to members of Congress. I want to remind you that -- sure, some have spoken out, but others have agreed with my position, like the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. So there's a different point of view. My point of view, however, since I'm in charge of fighting the war on terror is that we won't reveal sources and methods that will compromise our efforts to succeed.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/07/20030730-1.html

Now that is very interesting. Must be the ReallyReallyBadistan connection that is being concealed.

But ultimately he can't have wanted to spare Saudia Arabia. SA is high on the list of new priorities in the middle east, right after Iran, maybe even before it. Iraq is simply a launching pad for Saudia Arabia. The Saudi Arabian connection to 911 will rise and fall in the media depending on how much the neocons want to push it or not push it....when the time is ripe, they will leak those 28 pages at the drop of a hat -- unless, of course, those 28 pages contain evidence linking the Saudis to ReallyReallyBadistan, that big state in the Southwest US of A.

most of it has, try reading the 9-11 report.

in the mean time, bye bye

give a quote from said report that makes you go all wobbly for the investigative acumen and integrity of this particular official committee?
Just one, 'Axe in the head of fellow DU'er' fan.

Remember 1993? That attack tried to down the WTC, if it had succeeded, ALOT more people would have been killed than in 2001. Would Clintion been a mass murderer?

Both attacks were executed by "al Quaida", along with dozens of others.

Sorry Vincent but I thought we had this already!?
I've pointed out to you already that 1993 is more complicated:

Or did you forget this entry in Paul Thompson's Timeline:

February 26, 1993: An attempt to blow up the WTC fails. Six people are killed in the misfired blast. Analysts later determine that had the terrorists not made a minor error in the placement of the bomb, both towers could have fallen and up to 50,000 people could have been killed. The attempt is organized by Ramzi Yousef, who has close ties to bin Laden. (Congressional Hearings, 2/24/98) The New York Times later reports on Emad Salem, an undercover agent who ends up being the key government witness in the trial against the bomber. Salem testifies that the FBI knew about the attack beforehand and told him they would thwart it by substituting a harmless powder for the explosives. However, this plan was called off by an FBI supervisor, and the bombing was not stopped. (New York Times, 10/28/93)



Or do you prefer to listen
http://pdr.autono.net/WhoBombedWTC.html

And if you talk about Clinton don't forget to mention the Millenium Plot....

since the day it happened.

Why?

Because it had the characteristics of one.

Things have to happen in a very precise order and with strict timing in order to get a building to implode on itself. It's not in the buildings nature to do so naturally, especially after being struck on a corner near the top. Were a collapse to take place in this instance, it would most likely be a toppling rather than a straight down implosion.

That's my opionion, and I'm sticking to it. ;-)

I think, shortly after. They showed how the buildings were meant to withstand things such as this. I have thought that all along. I saw something online that showed that too.

Because it had the characteristics of one

WTC 1 & 2 didn't in the least bit. COMPLETELY different from controled demolition. WTC 7 did however. Not like the other two.

Things have to happen in a very precise order and with strict timing in order to get a building to implode on itself. It's not in the buildings nature to do so naturally, especially after being struck on a corner near the top. Were a collapse to take place in this instance, it would most likely be a toppling rather than a straight down implosion.

WTC 1 and 2 didn't implode. One floor collaped on the other one at a time in rapid sequence, top down. A sequence that was initiated at the point the aircraft struck the buildings. It would not have been possible for the WTC towers to topple over. In the terms of a scale model the towers were not Two-by-fours, or Legos, they were more like a tower of toothpicks. Any strong Lateral force that would start to topple the tower would reslult in complete loss of structural integrity.

vincent_vega_lives says:
Were a collapse to take place in this instance, it would most likely be a toppling rather than a straight down implosion.
WTC 1 and 2 didn't implode. One floor collaped on the other one at a time in rapid sequence, top down.

Controlled demo always involves demolition from the bottom up, NOT the top down, as was the case with WTC 1 and 2.

tried to tell me otherwise. He said they wouldn't hold up under the heat - I can't believe all the stuff I'm learning here - it blows my mind!

Thank you DU'ers! :hi:

if it was never there to start with.

Try looking for the bodies of the hijackers,
and you will not find them in the rubble at Fresh Kills
since they are still walking around,
alive and well,
in Saudi Arabia.

So where’s the evidence? Rense is for only total wack jobs, including holocaust deniers and every UFO “theory” you ever heard. Plus, they get their information from the American Free Press, which also runs headlines like “Congress Stops UN Gun Grab,.” Rense also runs articles by William Pierce, one of the leaders of the Aryan Nation.
http://www.rense.com/general33/zionh.htm

As for your other “source”, the man who makes the claim isn’t a NY Firefighter, excuse me, he’s an “honorary” firefight and also claims to have worked on the Columbia Space Shuttle cleanup. I also noted that he refuses to name the other witnesses. How convenient.

Please fell free to post when you have some “evidence” that doesn’t come from the deranged far right or a self-promoter looking for a headline.

Bye bye.

See below dotted line....We might be willing to accept that the black boxes were DAMAGED, but the assertion THAT NO PART OF THEM WAS EVEN FOUND is not credible.

Don't you realize that the reason we are fighting to dislodge the George Walker Bushitler stranglehold on America is because he got so "lucky" to have a 9/11 happen just when he needed it to catapult him into becoming OUR SAVIOR and OUR FUEHRER ? Do you think the Reichstag Fire in Germany that gave Adolf the same opportunity in Germany was also a "lucky strike" ?

WAKE UP! Information on multiple credible sources raise so many questions on the "9/11 Warren Commission Report" that you cannot refute this based upon what you feel about Rense.


-------------------------------------------------
Both recorders are designed to withstand enormous impact and heat. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials said they should have withstood the conditions at the WTC.

And finding the boxes after a crash seems to be standard procedure, according to the NTSB.

“It’s extremely rare that we don’t get the recorders back,’ said NTSB spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz. “I can’t remember another case which we did not recover the recorders.”

Flight 11 never left the runway.

According to the FAA,
the plane was reported as having been destroyed on January 14, 2002.

According to the 911 Commission,
several people
(possibly including Atta who was running late)
boarded the plane AFTER it had left the gate.

According a September 11 FBI affidavit,
and several September 11 news reports,
Flight 11 did not crash into the first tower.

Therefore,
it should come as no real surprise to anyone
when we are informed that the black box from N334AA
is nowhere to be found within the WTC rubble.

Obviously your monopoly on the truth outweighs your desire for respectful discourse.

There are a great deal of questionable circumstances that the 9/11 report failed to address, and enough information that was deemed too sensitive for public consumption to place its accuracy in doubt. I'm not satisfied with the level of disclosure, nor do I believe the official story.

While I wouldn't go so far as to accuse the administration without sufficient evidence, I think the lame excuses they have used are insufficient to deny responsibility for willfully ignoring the problem for the first 8 months they were in power. There's certainly a case for negligence.

Sorry, I'm tired of the tin foil hats wasting our time and energy chasing after shaows while the Bushes do real damage to our country. Arguing fairy tales does nothing to help us and make us look dumb. This "discussion" has been going on for 3 years nowe and arguing with CTers is ike arguing about the fossel record with creationists...

And sorry if I seem to disrespect the CTers, I have the same respect for their opinions and ability to weigh evidence as I do the creationists and flat earthers. :eyes:

bye bye

2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used to show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the "How dare you!" gambit.

WoodrowFan says:
Sorry, I'm tired of the tin foil hats wasting our time and energy chasing after shaows while the Bushes do real damage to our country.

In other words,
the damage that has been wrought on the United States
is to be blamed
on those who insist on a thorough and complete investigation
of the events of September 11, 2001.

WoodrowFan says:
And sorry if I seem to disrespect the CTers, I have the same respect for their opinions and ability to weigh evidence as I do the creationists and flat earthers. :eyes:

YOUR FREEDOM TO LEAVE
All visitors to the Democratic Underground website are here voluntarily. Nobody is forcing you to post on this message board. The administrators try their best to be fair, and to make Democratic Underground A WELCOMING PLACE FOR PROGRESSIVES WHO LIKE THE Democratic Underground AND WHO WANT TO BE HERE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE Democratic Underground, or THE MEMBERS OF Democratic Underground, or the way we run Democratic Underground, THEN we strongly suggest that you EXERCISE YOUR RIGHT TO LEAVE. If we decide that you don't like this place very much, then we reserve the right to show you the door ourselves.

bye bye
WoodrowFan
bye bye
:hi:

Hang by your thumbs, and do have someone write to us if you find work, hear? All right.

what's on your top 5 Dem issue list for X-mas: stolen elections, health care, taxes on the wealthy instead of the middle class and the poor, ending the immoral bloodletting in Iraq?

if you have studied the facts as I have, you would know that there is all sorts of documentation on the seismic activity...also, fireman and policeman who were there have been gagged....also reported elsewhere...

maybe you don't like the web site...but the info is out there..all over the web, if you took the time to look.

There is no way that jet fuel and carpet are going to get steel in the basement up to 2800 F unless they store nitrogen tetroxide and aluminum powder in drums in the basement to go with it.

There are so many things about the WTC collapse that require us to believe the laws of physics were suspended that September morning, like we are ask to overlook the track record of reliability of exit polls to believe that Shrub won the election.

there are transcripts there...police and fireman reports hearing bombs going off. ORIGINAL reports....

9/11 is just one of the many crime scenes left behind of this administration....I hope we haul them all off to jail one day.....

I hope I can proudly tell my children that I helped in that effort.

Seismic Data: Two Huge Energy
Bursts Under WTC Towers
New Seismic Data Refutes Official Explanation Of Collapses
Exclusive to American Free Press
By Christopher Bollyn
12-13-4

AFP articles are not to be referenced or posted on DU.

"Why" you ask?

It is a kook web page run by and supported by "journalists" and readers that are historical revisionist, bigots, anti-semites, illuminate advocates,and lizard-men wack-o-doodles.

You claim to be an engineer, right? Whether or not you are a degreed engineer, wouldn't it look better for the engineering profession, AND your own reputation, if you could simply refute or rebut arguments, regardless of who makes them? After all, there may be a few people here who have taken some of your ruminations seriously, regardless of their personal feelings about your character.

not can't

For starters articles from AFP are not supposed to be posted for a reason. DU management reviewed its history and correctly decided it is not a worthy source.

In second place is the fact I am am not going to waste my time refuting the ranting of a revisionist by the name of Bollyn no more than I would waste my time refuting David Duke. If you want to advocate the nonsense from Bollynn or Duke for that matter, be my guest.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as "kooks", "right-wing", "liberal", "left-wing", "terrorists", "conspiracy buffs", "radicals", "militia", "racists", "religious fanatics", "sexual deviates", and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how "sensitive they are to criticism".

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics. Your imply guilt by association and attack truth on the basis of the messenger. The Spotlight is a well known Populist media source responsible for releasing facts and stories well before mainstream media will discuss the issues through their veil of silence. Why do you refuse to address the issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule 5 - sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule)?

Proper response: "You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics. You attempt to draw me into emotional response without discussion of the issues. If you have something useful to contribute which defeats my argument, let's here it -- preferably without snide and unwarranted personal attacks, if you can manage to avoid sinking so low. Your useless rhetoric serves no purpose here if that is all you can manage. Why do you refuse to address the issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule 18 - emotionalize, antagonize, and goad opponents)?

My understanding of the situation is that
AFP and whatreallyhappened, among others,
are seen as holding some positions which are contrary
to what the Democratic Underground considers to be of value
and therefore DU does not wish to promote them
by directing its readers to either site.

As for the gratuitous invective,
LARED
frequently refers to many of the regulars of the 911 forum
in the same exact terms.

"As for the gratuitous invective,
LARED
frequently refers to many of the regulars of the 911 forum
in the same exact terms."

YES, well, but see, HE'S honest.

The Spotlight is a well known Populist media source responsible for releasing facts and stories well before mainstream media will discuss the issues through their veil of silence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Carto

Willis Allison Carto (born 1926) is a longtime figure on the political extreme Anti Semitic right-wing in the United States.

Carto was born in Indiana. His career has been marked by controversy, and even among the far right wing he is a polarizing figure. The Anti-Defamation League and other critics have noted that Willis Carto, more than anybody else, was responsible for keeping organized anti-Semitism alive in the United States during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s. He has founded many organizations, most of which have fallen out of his hands as a result of hostile takeovers by former Carto associates. Critics have also noted that Carto has founded some organizations, such as Liberty Lobby, with the intent of appearing to be respectable conservative, populist, or anti-Communist organizations, while his real ideology was that of an anti-Semite and a white supremacist. Willis Carto was known to be a devotee of the writings of Francis Parker Yockey, who was one of a handful of esoteric writers during the post-WWII period who revered Adolf Hitler. Yockey's best known book, Imperium, was adopted by Carto as his own guiding ideology. While some of the organizations such as Liberty Lobby put on a mainstream face, and, critics charged, were intended as subtle recruiting tools for anti-Semitism and the extreme right, Willis Carto also founded other organizations which took a more explicitly white supremacist or even neo-Nazi orientation.

In 1955, he founded the organization called Liberty Lobby, which remained in operation under the control of Willis Carto until 2001, when the organization was forced into bankruptcy as a result of a lawsuit. Liberty Lobby was perhaps best known for publishing the newspaper, The SPOTLIGHT, between 1975 and 2001, which is also now defunct. Willis Carto and other people who were involved with The Spotlight have since started a new newspaper, called the American Free Press, which is similar in tone.

Lared, I always found it interesting that CTers (not you) have this affinity for far RW, anti-Semitic and racist sites like The Spotlight because that's where they find people who believe the same conspiracy drivel. You'd think it would bring a pause to supposed "liberals" or "progressives" that they're suddenly in agreement on political issues of substance with people who are openly on the racist far right, but that never seems to sink in.

I have noticed that and have pointed out a number of times the inexplicable relationship between so called progressives and the fringe right wing.

I explain it in this way. I believe that the political spectrum is best defined by a circle, like a clock rather than a line. At noon are the true centrists, moving clockwise ideology get increasingly more conservative and moving counterclockwise they get increasingly more progressive. At 6:00 the two fringes meet and it get difficult to tell what direction they came from.

Truth Suppression Technique Number 5

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as "kooks", "right-wing", "liberal", "left-wing", "terrorists", "conspiracy buffs", "radicals", "militia", "racists", "religious fanatics", "sexual deviates", and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
http://www.universalway.org/Foreign/truthsuppression.html

So,
anyone who questions the Official Storyline is now
"far RW, anti-Semitic and racist"
in addition to being a "conspiracy theorist."

My, my,
and yet you keep hanging out with us,
WoodrowFan.
What does THAT say about YOU?

Note: There are other ways to attack truth, but these listed are the most common, and others are likely derivatives of these. In the end, you can usually spot the professional disinfo players by one or more of seven distinct traits:
4) They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players will infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength.

5) Their disdain for "conspiracy theorists" and, usually, for those who in any way believe JFK was not killed by LHO. Ask yourself why, if they hold such disdain for conspiracy theorists, do they focus on defending a single topic discussed in a Named Group focusing on conspiracies? One might think they would either be trying to make fools of everyone on every topic, or simply ignore the group they hold in such disdain. Or, one might more rightly conclude they have an ulterior motive for their actions in going out of their way to focus as they do.
http://www.universalway.org/Foreign/truthsuppression.html

aside from certain actual CT issues that is.

Techniques" again?

:eyes:

is dried up.

And is MOST helpful to newbies, lurkers, passersby, amateurs and other 'uninformed' laypersons in gaining some insight into the highly sophisticated intelligence of trained professionals and experts.

Which ones are thoses?

speaking CT:

"BS Report" = any report the CTers don't like (ie based on facts)

"truthful reports" = fairy tales told by someone with a severe mental illness that somehow supports the Cter's position.

see, it's like Orwellian language! quite easy once you get the hang of it.

Once a king, always a king. But, once a knight's enough. Do we really need TWO "bad" cops to play off the one "good" cop?

See recent election tally.

"Disinfo agents" = anyone who produces facts refuting their theories.

"Disinfo agents" = anyone who produces facts refuting their theories.

Self-defeating, self-canceling, eh what?

those of CT's.

Stay with the program.

I assumed you meant what you said. Ordinarily, that's how you operate isn't it?

When taken in the context of the post that I responded to, the "their" referes to CT'rs.

When taken out of context I can see where you might get confused and percive that "their" would refer to the subject of the sentence.

Sorry for any confusion Abe.

Carry on.

You can imagine how confusing it was, considering your usual modest style and generous willingness to consider all sides of any issue.

As you were.

this thread is titled
Administration version of 9/11 unraveling; new evidence refutes

but THAT truth has been successfully suppressed.

creationists, and "negating" the message solely by way of impugning the messenger?

Talk about the well drying up ...

The most important thing to recognize is that WHEN THE 9/11 COVER-UP BREAKS DOWN IN NEW YORK CITY, IT WILL BREAK DOWN EVERYWHERE.

We aren't quite there yet. We still need a lot more 9/11 Truth and Justice activism on the ground in New York City, and a lot more support for the crucial 9/11 Truth and Justice activists of New York from the rest of the world. Especially now that the re-election of Bush has made their lives much more dangerous!!!

Look for some key breakthroughs in New York in the next month or two. The extremely intelligent New York Attorney General is already studying what he may be able to do to help. If anyone can do it now, he can.

This is part of a recent outreach note . . .
"9/11 Truth: The Key to Systemic Change"
"Given the momentum and added strength of the corporate forces now in
power, citizens will face unending appeals this year to combat
firestorms on many different fronts.

"We can struggle to prioritize our donations to stop war atrocities,
environmental assaults, our grandkids' ballooning debt, attacks on our
rights and Constitution, the shredding of the social safety net, and a
dozen other centrifugal symptoms of the sickness at the top.

"OR we can step back a pace or two and see where all this carnage
connects and focus our resources on tactics that would stop it all at once."
(much more) - DK


To learn more about the 9/11 Truth Movement:

www.911truth.org/