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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 04:28 PM
Original message
Another Prof. Joins 9/11 Skepticism Club.
THINKING ABOUT 'CONSPIRACY THEORIES' - "9/11 and JFK"

"As an expression of support for those who are attempting to expose the truth about the events of 9/11 for the benefit of the American people, I am posting the penultimate version of a chapter I have submitted to David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott for publication in their volume, 9/11 AND THE AMERICAN EMPIRE (forthcoming). I stand with Steve Jones, Professor of Physics at Brigham Young, David Ray Griffin, Professor Emeritus of Theology at Claremont, and other students and scholars of 9/11, who believe that extraordinary times require extraordinary measures."

- James H. Fetzer


(Following are excerpts from Fetzer's Chapter, constituting about 10% of source, which falls under "fair use".)

7. The Case of 9/11

…In the case of 9/11, however, we are vastly more fortunate. As a consequence of inquiries by Nafeez Ahmed (2002), Thierry Meyssan (2002), Paul Thompson (2004), Michael Ruppert (2004), and David Ray Griffin (2004, 2005), among others, we already know that the official account of 9/11 cannot possibly be correct. That account contends that 19 Arabs, with feeble ability to pilot aircraft, hijacked four airliners and then executed demanding maneuvers in order to impact the World Trade Center and the Pentagon; that the damage created by their impact combined with the heat from burning jet fuel brought down WTC1 and WTC2; that WTC7 was the first building in history to be brought down by fire alone; and that the Pentagon was struck by United Flight 77, which was a Boeing 757. The basic problem with this "conspiracy theory", as in the case of JFK, is that its truth would violate laws of physics and engineering that cannot be transgressed…

…Most Americans may not realize that no steel-structure high-rise building has ever collapsed from fire in the history of civil engineering, either before or after 9/11. If we assume that those fires have occurred in a wide variety of buildings under a broad range of conditions, that evidence suggests that these buildings do not have a propensity to collapsed as an effect of fire. That makes an alternative explanation, especially the use of powerful explosives in a controlled demolition, a hypothesis that must be taken seriously. Indeed, there appear to be at least ten features of the collapse of the Twin Towers that are expectable effects of controlled demolitions but not from fires following aircraft impacts. They include that the buildings fell about the rate of free fall; that they both collapsed virtually straight down (and into their own "footprints"); that almost all the concrete was turned into very fine dust; that the collapses were complete, leaving virtually no steel support columns standing; that photographic records of their collapse relect "demolition waves" occurring just ahead of the collapsing floors; that most of the beams and columns fell in sections of 30' to 40' in length; that firemen reported hearing sequences of explosions as they took place; that seismological events were recorded immediately prior to collapse; and that pools of molten metal were observed in the subbasements for weeks after…

8. 9/11: The Pentagon

…Unofficial variations on the official account include that the Boeing 757 first hit the ground and then bounced into the building, that the plane's engines plowed across the lawn before it entered the building, or that its right wing-tip hit and caused it to "cartwheel" into the Pentagon. None of these accounts is remotely consistent with the smooth, green, and unblemished lawn. It is all the more remarkable, therefore, that the Secretary of Defense had the lawn resurfaced as though it had been damaged during the attack. Photographs of the lawn were taken immediately after the attack that demonstrate it was not damaged at all. Anyone who only viewed the lawn after its reconstruction, however, would be more likely to accept the official account. And it is of more than passing interest that far more damage could have been caused by less demanding maneuvers if the plane had been crashed through the roof of the building as opposed to hitting a newly reconstructed wing that was largely bereft of personnel and records—as though the "terrorists" wanted to inflict minimal damage.

Had a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon, it would have left massive debris from the wings, the fuselage, the engines, the seats, the luggage, the bodies, and the tail. Take a look at photographs taken shortly after the impact before the upper floors fell, however, and you will observe none of the above: no wings, no engines, no seats, no luggage, no bodies, no tail. It does not require rocket science—or even the calculation of any probabilities—to recognize that something that large cannot possibly have fit through an opening that small and left no remnants in the form of wings sheered off, debris scattered about, and so on. One piece of fuselage alleged to have come from the plane appears to have been planted evidence, which was moved around and photographed in more than one location. But if massive debris from the fuselage, wings, engines, seats, luggage, bodies, and tail were not present at the scene, the scene cannot have been of the crash of a 757. The argument involved is about as simple as they come.

The principle of logic involved is known as modus tollens, which states that, if p then q, but not q, then not p. If q must be true when p is true, but q is not true, then p is not true, either. This is an elementary rule of deductive reasoning, employment of which is fundamental to scientific investigations. If you want to test an hypothesis, deduce what must be true if that hypothesis is true and attempt to ascertain whether those consequences are true. If they are not true, then the hypothesis is false. Q.E.D. If a Boeing 757 had hit the Pentagon, as the government has alleged, it would have left debris of specific kinds and quantities. Photographs and measurements show no debris of those kinds and quantities. As long as these photographs are authentic and those measurements are correct—which concerns the quality of the evidence for not q and appears to be rather difficult to dispute—then no Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon.

9. What really happened?

The remnants of the single engine found inside offer clues as to what actually hit the Pentagon. Boeing 757s are powered by two Pratt & Whitney turbofan engines, with front-rotor elements about 42" in diameter and high-pressure rear stages that are less than 21" in diameter. The part found was less than 24" in diameter and, it turns out, actually matches, not the turbofan engine, but the front-hub assembly of the front compressor for the JT8D turbojet engine used in the A-3 Sky Warrior jet fighter. Since cruise missiles have a 20" diameter, moreover, they appear to be too small to accommodate this component. It follows that the Pentagon was not hit by a Boeing 757 or by a cruise missile but, given this evidence, was probably struck by an A-3 Sky Warrior instead. The available relevant evidence is not even consistent with the government's official account, which deserves to be rejected. Its likelihood given the evidence is actually null, while the alternative A-3 hypothesis makes the relevant evidence highly probable and has high likelihood as a clearly preferable explanation.

This conjecture, which the evidence suggests, receives additional support from other sources. Two civilian defense contract employees, for example, have reported that A-3 Sky Warriors were covertly retrofitted with remote control systems and missile-firing systems at the Ft. Collins-Loveland Municipal Airport, a small civilian airport in Colorado, during the months prior to 9/11. According to information they supplied, "separate military contractors—working independently at different times—retrofitted Douglas A-3 Sky Warriors with updated missiles, Raytheon's Global Hawk unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) remote control systems, new engines and fire control systems, transponders, and radio-radar-navigation systems—a total makeover—seemingly for an operation more important than their use as a simple missile testing platform for defense contractor Hughes-Raytheon." These reports substantiate the alternative.

If a small fighter jet rather than a Boeing 757 had hit the Pentagon, that would tend to explain the small impact point, the lack of massive external debris, and a hole in the inner ring of the building, which the fragile nose of a Boeing 757 could not have created. It would also suggest why parts of a plane were carried off by servicemen, since they might have made the identification of the aircraft by type apparent and falsified the official account. A small fighter also accommodates the report from Danielle O'Brien, an air traffic controller, who said of the aircraft that hit, "Its speed, maneuverability, the way that it turned, we all thought in the radar room—all of us experienced air traffic controllers—that it was a military plane". Nothing moves or maneuvers more like a military plane, such as a jet fighter, than a military plane or a jet fighter, which could also explain how it was able to penetrate some of the most strongly defended air space in the world—by emitting a friendly transponder signal...


Full chapter at link.
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govegan Donating Member (661 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for posting.
I am familiar with Fetzer's work on JFK's assassination in Dealey plaza, the Zapruder film hoax, etc.

I read the summaries and saved that chapter to read later. This is new information to me about the A-3 engine type.

The scope of the Sept. 11 hoax is going to keep researchers occupied for years to come, no doubt.




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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Peter Dale Scott is also a JFK research expert.
That's who Fetzer is submitting his chapter to, Scott and Griffin, for their new book.

Have you read any of Scott's books on JFK? (I have not.)
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StrafingMoose Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. My only Scott read was


this. Needless to say, I have to read it again. Alot of elements to analyze in this...

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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. That book was originally blocked from publication...
During its first run in the 70's as The War Conspiracy.

Scott's investigation into 'Deep Politics' continues unabated.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for posting this.
Have downloaded the document for printout.

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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you for posting this.
I am optimistic that the truth will come out sooner rather than later as it seems to me that the corruption that permeates the current administration is being exposed from a myriad of places all at once.

Just had one issue with a typo:

"that evidence suggests that these buildings do not have a propensity to collapsed"

As I know that professors are notorious for their anal qualities (I am a former doctoral student and know this first-hand), a word mispelled is a cause to wonder (and question) for me.

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gbwarming Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. How the heck can an A-3 with a 72 foot wingspan fit thru a 16 ft hole?
The A-3 is not some small fighter jet similar to an F-16. It's a large, shoulder wing airplane with side by side seating for the crew, 22 feet tall. And they never built this plane with JT8D _turbofan_ engines - Those skinny little nacelles were fitted with J57 turbojets. Here's a tanker version fuelling a pair of A4Ds which are similar in size to the F-16 (shorter and maybe taller).



Fetzer even botches his example of phsyical impossibility. Contrary to his claim it _is_ possible for water to exist as a liquid below 32F at standard conditions if the water is still and has no place to start growing ice crystals (see http://symp15.nist.gov/pdf/p697.pdf for experimental data sjowing supercooling of ~5C):

(snip)
More interesting than logical necessities, possibilities and impossibilities, however, are physical necessities, possibilities and impossibilities.7 These are determined in relation to the laws of nature, which, unlike laws of society, cannot be violated, cannot be changed, and require no enforcement.8 If (pure) water freezes at 32° F at sea level atmospheric pressure, for example, then it is physically necessary for a sample of (pure) water to freeze when its temperature falls below 32° F at that pressure. Analogously, under those same conditions, that a sample of (pure) water would not freeze when its temperature falls below 32° F is physically impossible. And when a sample of (pure) water is not frozen at that pressure, it is justifiable to infer that it is therefore not at a temperature below its freezing point of 32° F.
(snip)
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. Jim Fetzer is no way new to this -
Edited on Fri Dec-16-05 09:28 PM by Monkey see Monkey Do
just go back through the "Black Op Radio" archives. And frankly his guff about Zapruder film alteration doesn't exactly inspire me to bother with his analysis on 9-11.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Calling it "analysis " is very kind. (n/t)
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Klimmer Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks for the post, looking forward to this book being published..
Edited on Sat Dec-17-05 06:13 AM by Klimmer
More 9-11 truth and exposure is a very good thing.

It is evident to more and more people when you look at the facts known and the visual evidence that we can see, using logic, reasoning, and the scientific method, along with using the tool of thought experiments, all cries out the official 9-11 Commission Report, the official conspiracy theory is nothing but bull-dung.

Yet predictably, here come the neigh-sayers flocking.

Yes, it is in rough-draft. So what's the point about typos? I could see many, especially with formating. It's not done.

The example about water freezing, perhaps he should have said pure water freezes at 32 degrees F (0 degrees C) at STP in unconfined spaces. Big whoops. We know that water expands when it freezes. If it cannot expand then the freezing temp will be lower.

There is more honesty and analysis in his article than I have ever seen in any apologist thought for the "official" 9-11 conspiracy here in this forum.

Truth cannot be stopped. The people will eventually know. 9-11 did not happen as a result of 19 hijackers with box cutter knives.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. There is the usual lack of honesty regarding facts
Edited on Sat Dec-17-05 09:38 AM by LARED
http://www.d.umn.edu/%7Ejfetzer/fetzerexpandedx.doc

The extremely high melting point of structural steel (about 2,800° F) is far above the maximum (around 1,500° F) that could have been produced by jet fuel under optimal conditions.

Not too bad at this point. Office building fires can get to 1200 C under the right conditions. link Even though he's humping the nonsense that the steel needed to melt to fail, he's close.

Next

Underwriters Laboratory had certified the steel used in the World Trade Center to 2,000° F for up to six hours.38 Even lower maximum temperatures result after factoring in insulation, such as asbestos, and the availability of oxygen.39

Note 38 states

38. The maximum temperature of air-aspirated, hydrocarbon fires without pre-heating or pressurization is around 1,520° F, as Jim Hoffman has advised me in personal correspondence. Underwriters Laboratory had in fact certified that the steel used in construction could withstand temperatures of 2,000° F several hours before even any significant softening would have occurred. (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/121104.easilywithstood.htm)

This is complete nonsense. (What a surprise he got false information from Jim Hoffman :sarcasm:). As I already pointed out open fires can reach 1200 C. What really happens is insulated steel systems are tested for their ability to withstand fires. There is no structural CS that does NOT lose nearly all strength at 2000 F.

Moving on to footnote 39

39. It certainly would not have melted at the lower temperatures of around 500° F to which, UL estimated, they were exposed, given the conditions present in the towers. (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/121104.easilywithstood.htm) Nor would they have melted at temperatures as high as 1,200° or 1,300° F, as other estimates suggest (Griffin 2004, p. 13). The hottest temperatures measured in the South Tower was about 1,375° F, far too low to cause the steel to melt. (See below.)

The UL did not estimate any temperatures. What the good Dr. fails to mention is at 1375 F steel has lost nearly all it strength.

Back to the text of the article

Since steel is a good conductor, any heat applied to one part of the structure would have been dissipated to other parts. WTC1, the North Tower, was hit first at 8:46 AM/ET and collapsed at 10:28 AM/ET, whereas the South Tower, hit second at 9:03 AM/ET, collapsed at 9:59 AM/ET. They were exposed to fires for roughly an hour and a half and an hour, respectively. Insofar as most of the fuel was burned off in the gigantic fireballs that accompanied the initial impacts, that these towers were brought down by fuel fires that melted the steel is not just improbable but physically impossible.40

He is absolutely correct that the fires would not melt the steel. (good for him), the other information about timing is just a distraction. Sadly steel did not need to melt to collapse the towers. Any sophomore CE or ME could have told him that.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Professor Fetzer should be ashamed of himself for posting sophisms. An uneducated person could be excused for failing to check out basic information and failing to use source materials, but not a PhD. IMO he is deliberately misleading people.

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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Sound and fury
Edited on Sat Dec-17-05 11:07 AM by dailykoff
signifying not very much. Your point appears to be that you found a website claiming that room fires can reach a temperature of 1,200° C (2,192° F), which exceeds the certification temperature (not the melting temperature, that's 2,800° F) of steel.

But let's look more carefully at this source. Two observations must be made:

(1) 1,200° C is a "peak value," or maximum temperature of open flames achievable under ideal conditions. However, according to the source, the temperatures of "a typical post-flashover room fire will more commonly be 900~1,000°C" (1,652-1,832° F).

(2) These values measure the heat of flames in a room, not the heat of objects in a room, such as columns. As the source points out ("Temperatures of objects"), it takes a certain amount of time for heat to transer from the flames to the objects, depending on each object's thermal conductivity, density, size, and degree of insulation. In the case of 36" x 24," heavily fireproofed, high-grade structural steel columns, we may safely assume that this transfer time would exceed 90 minutes.

So the information Dr. Babrauskas provides does not refute Professor Fetzer's point, but in fact, confirms it.

(edit for spelling)
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Ah, but there's the rub.
The fireproofing may not have been intact.

Regardless, I'd love to see your calculations regarding the heat transfer from a heat source to the steel columns - or did you pull the 90 minutes number out of your ass?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. So you agree that Prof Fetzers point that
the temperatures not being able to get to the melting point of steel indicates the towers being brought down by fuel fires that melted the steel is not just improbable but physically impossible.

The issues about peak fire temperature is moot. Office fires without question degrade the strength of steel to a point where failure will occur.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Yes, absolutely.
In the elapsed times (56 and 102 min.), I do not believe it would have been possible for fuel and/or office fires to weaken even one column to failure temperature, let alone the number of columns necessary to initiate a partial collapse.

In any case, there were no notable fires below the crash floors, so there was no reason, however implausible, for those 5,000+ columns to fail simultaneously other than by demolition.

As to your second point, it's never happened, even though bigger fires have burned hotter and longer in lower floors of major skyscrapers, with no significant damage to their steel frames.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. So if regular old office fires are not a concern in steel
buildings, why bother fireproofing them?
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. For safety reasons, obviously.
So far, fireproofed steel has proven to be exactly that, even in cases where fires have gutted multiple floors of skyscrapers leaving nothing but the steel frames, as in the case of the 1991 fire in One Meridian Plaza, Philadelphia, which burned all night and took out eight floors, but left the building standing:



more details here: http://www.iklimnet.com/hotelfires/meridienplaza.html

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Except you are ignoring the fact that the insulation
was compromised in the towers
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Just giving it its due.
Insulation is alleged to have been blown off of trusses and columns by the planes, yes. However, apart from the fact that I find this claim ridiculous, I don't believe it's a relevant factor here because of the short duration of the fires.

Fireproofing as I tried to explain above adds a safety factor to steel strength by prolonging the time required to heat steel members to failure temperatures. In this case, there wouldn't have been enough time even without it.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. How does an A-3 cause 120' of "severe damage" to the facade?
"The width of the severe damage to the west facade of the Pentagon was approximately 120 ft (from column lines 8 to 20)."

http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0203feat.html



An A-3 Sky Warrior only has a 72'6" wingspan.

http://www.aero-web.org/specs/douglas/a-3a.htm


Riddle me that one...
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. where's the evidence supporting such damage
"width of damage was 120ft"
?

All the supposed evidence i have seen for that claim seems to be based on the assumption that areas of the facade that are not visible on photographs due to smoke and/or foam/water jets, are in fact holes.

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Did you read the link I provided?
You know, the one that links to a report written by engineers who examined the site first-hand...


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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. Professor Fetzer writes very well.
Edited on Sat Dec-17-05 05:27 PM by Dancing_Dave
I guess that's what profs are for!

I'm already familiar with all his major lines of evidence, but he has an interesting Logical Positivist way of laying the arguments out. Scepticism about the official 9/11 myth is becoming more academically repectable.
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