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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-16-06 08:19 PM
Original message
for all 911 debunkers...molten metal dripping from 80th
floor of WT2..any plausible explanation will do. I say thermite is cutting through the steel beams.

see it here.. http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem2/911.wtc.2.demolition.north.02.wmv
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-16-06 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. So why don't we see any deformation in the facade ..
as the collapse begins - can you even link the collapse to this particular spot on the tower? If you are right, it should be very easy to show.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. signatures of controlled demolitions...not related to molten metal












still believe osama,19 arabs,and fire brought down all 3 WTC buildings?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. Were you trying to show something by posting those two pics?
Because they only way they resemble each other is to flip one of them upside-down.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. your right it should be switched..but I took the controlled demo
first followed by WT1..you can see the similarities?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. No, what I said was
you had to flip one of the pictures UPSIDE-DOWN to match the other. Not reposition them.

Controlled demolition, debris plume at the bottom.

WTC collapse, debris plume coming from the top.

Upside-down.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. WAIT..
are you viewing a demo of controlled demolitions with WT1 as the second picture or are you talking about the molten dripping metal..I'm confused..
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I'm confused, too. Your post seemed to want to compare the pics.
Not contrast them.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. It seemed that way to me too. I'd bet we're correct.
However, the pictures don't support the argument they accompnied in the least.
In fact, they serve as rebuttal to the argument.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. ok back.. now what I did was post a picture with video links
to molten metal dripping from high up in WT2,someone has suggested there was no molten metal to be seen anywhere. It wasn't me who termed it aluminum and after further review I see no other possibility than steel.
Later beam me up finds even better views of that dripping metal and a demonstration video of thermite out of control..did you view any of the three links?
I am looking for answers regarding 911..not arguments or skeptics willing to debunk other 911 hunters who btw find some fascinating facts and post them..

Trotsky..I am not a rocket scientist nor a professor,engineer or have completed college. I just can't accept the 911 report so all avenues are open to me until I (this camper) am satisfied..



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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. You "see no other possibility than steel"?
Edited on Fri Feb-17-06 04:38 PM by trotsky
Aircraft are made almost entirely of aluminum. Aluminum melts at 1200°F. Even the most ardent of CTers will allow for jet fuel fires to reach 1800°F.

So why do you say there is "no other possibility than steel"?

On edit: correct melting temp of aluminum (had my C and F mixed up), still less than 1800.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. if it were aluminum we'd see more of it..just look to the left
and right of the drip..raging fires even more intense but no molten drip. also look to the right there appears to be another thermite fire raging inside the sky lobby on the 78th floor. Then the building begins to collapse..
Your for the 911 official report or your a 911 hunter, i don't mind constructive criticism but please don't try to intimidate or humiliate me,.. ok
I am an average New Yorker 59 italian looking for the truth about the Sept.11 attacks. I don't accept the 911 OFFICIAL REPORT..THEY LEFT OUT TOO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS.




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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Again with the false dichotomy.
Yer either with us or yer agin' us.

Republicans see the world in black & white. I do not.

By the way, what training or expertise are you relying on to determine just how much molten aluminum we'd expect to see?
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. 911 is BLACK AND WHITE... NO GREY HERE
so with no reply as to where you stand I can only assume your with the 911 report..and the scumbags who crafted that report both Dem's and gopers prepared that POS report.
We 911 hunters see that report as toilet paper albeit expensive toilet paper since it cost millions of dollars taxpayer dollars.
Thanks for showing your colors.. no need to continue trotsky,,LARED hack,Kevin several others here seem to support the 911 omissions and distortions report.. WELL I DON'T..

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. "911 is BLACK AND WHITE... NO GREY HERE"
I think you just fell on your sword, DemInDistress.

:headbang:

btw, don't let my presence change your spelling of "gray".

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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. ok got me..gray is a color and grey is a name...wow..
REAL BIG FUCKING DEAL...BUT IT DOES TELL ME SOMETHING THOUGH..
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. grey is a color. What are you talking about?
People spell it differently, that's all.

The concept remains the same.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. What color is molten steel?
btw, I have to let you know that ending most of your posts with some statement about NOT ACCEPTING THE OFFICIAL REPORT or YOU'RE LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH, that serves as zero support for your argument. To some, it may even look like unreasonable desperation. The use of smilies can be read as another attempt to use emotion to sway your readers in the absence of reasoned argument.

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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. PLEASE.don't attack my smileys..911 is the issue and the
people looking for answers. If there was one ounce of truth out of the scumbags mouth from the Whitehouse I may give a pound of consideration but as we come to know..WE CAN'T TRUST A FUCKING WORD FROM HIM ESPECIALLY 911 COMMENTS..all he (dimson) can do is EXPLOIT THE DEAD OF 911 by calling upon their dead names to provoke terror in the sheep of america..
greyl, criticize me and my information only if you REJECT THE 911 REPORT.. because there is no middle ground
NONE ZERO just 2 sides..2 possibilities.
1.osama and his 19 marauders hijacked 4 commercial jets crashing 2 of them into the WTC which then caught fire and collapsed taking WT7 with it....or
2. 911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB..

help me understand your position..tell me where you stand 4 and half yrs. later.. please




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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. This thread is about molten metal dripping from the 80th floor, right?
I mean, that's just to the best of my recollection, I can't be sure about anything.


Any plausible explanation will do? Yeah, right.
Listen, it's unproductive and counter-evolutionary to clutch your ideas.

Now, back to the molten metal...
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. I don't accept the 911 report either.
Edited on Fri Feb-17-06 04:56 PM by greyl
I believe that anyone that believes everything the government says without skepticism is a total damn idiot. (do people like that even exist?)

"I am looking for answers regarding 911"

Me too. I've been doing it for over 4 years now.
Please realize that any debunking of controlled demolition doesn't get the asshole bush admin off the hook at all.

Again: Debunking of controlled demolition doesn't exonerate the bush admin!

Now, please calmly consider the evidence that the molten metal was aluminum and that there is a wealth of verifiable evidence that the bush admin lied to cover up their incompetence ie C. Rice- "nobody could have predicted that they'd use planes to fly into buildings", that the war on terror strategy is wrongheaded, that bush deserves to be impeached or worse, and that bush was never qualified or deserving to lead our country or even a baseball team.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. I missed this reply earlier so let me shake your hand..
I see some clarity in your position regarding 911. I will accept your against the lies distortion discrepancies put forth by the bush crime family and that "ludicrous" 911 report. Itt also appears to me that you'll need to see "rock hard evidence" to sway you. I can accept that without being riled up, yes I now agree
your with us the 911 hunters and not the 911 debunker's. so with that in mind I will shake your hand and issue an apology to you ONLY..
As for aluminum flowing from the 80th floor as shown forget about it..cant be aluminum more like steel beams. If you watch closely off to the right on the same floor another raging fire erupts seconds before WT 2 begins its collapse. Look close, no fire (or little/small fire) then white hot fires indicative of thermite cutter charges.
Another thing that disproves aluminum flowing is the lobby of WT2 and the lobby of WT1 had numerous firemen who didn't report any dripping metal let alone aluminum or steel..but we do see molten dripping metal. don't we?
So greyl and btw..why do you post and recite from 911myths? I bid you farewell for tonight many new videos to see now after spending 9 hours here..

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #51
66. I'm shaking your hand and shaking my head at the same time. :) nt
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-16-06 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. or lasers?
Also from terrorize-
"In this sequence there is at least 10 laser beams. Small local fires seems to start right after a laser leaves the area. Take a look at laser closest to the center. Right after the laser leaves its stationary position (and the camera zooms out) smoke and fire is pouring out of the spot.
The purpose af the lasers seems to be ignite fires. The evolution of the fires in the towers shows that they were very resistent. And the perps knew it.
The lasers could also be used to cut up steel beams, but that isn't visible ..."


http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtcfire1/newlaser.php

Is what you have posted the same action as what is happening at the lower edge of the wtc holes?

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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Very interesting..yes I saw the laser beams..
I was fascinated for if it were laser beams who was behind them? Osama? CIA? Think of the few possibilities
that could cause steel to melt/drip like that and leave other portions of the damaged building untouched by white hot molten dripping metal.
What is unique about terrorize.dk is "its danish" can't say it a conspiracy site and "the videos speak for themselves" let the debunker's emerge and explain if they can. I'm open for opinions. I want answers not an
argument. To me, to my eyes, I see molten metal dripping from the 80th floor (approx) just above the crash site. Help me out here because only a few will finally get the goods on this crime family. Others seem comfortable burying the dead of 911 but NOT ME..
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Sorry for being uptight about this
But as far as i can tell no actual laser "beams" are visible.
What is visible are several small bright spots wondering about on the facade of the tower. And indeed it does look very suspicious - laser does seem to be a plausible explanation for this.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. You are right, the beams are not visible, but I think they
should not be overlooked. I want to know what they are. I'm not sure if a beam is visible when the laser is being used for guidance of say, missiles or remote controlled planes; all is needed is the spot to which they are being directed. I need to learn more on that. I just hope that by mentioning it someone who knows something might pipe in with more info, and I want to make people aware of the phenomena, for those who have not yet seen those photos, that is why I mention it a lot.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #32
56. The beam is only visible where there's dust/smoke
for the beam to reflect off of.
Normally you'll only see a spot, if anything.

The spots in the video don't look like video anomalies to me, nor do they appear to be faked - if they are faked it's done pretty well.
If real, i don't think those are guiding lasers for missiles, but rather to ignite thermite charges.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #56
74. You're probably right, although there was a spot where the
plane landed which was very obvious, (let's roll 9-11 has it) after the (2nd) plane landed the light drifts off onto the next building. This was a CNN vid, so I doubt they would put it in there.
It is important to note that laser technology is VERY REAL: ( I know you know that, but for others)

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2003/20030505/energy_weapons.shtml

(planes OR helicopters)
from article:

The Airborne Laser
Aside from large, fixed, ground-based laser systems like the THEL, the U.S. military is spending billions to develop laser weapons small and light enough to fit on vehicles, including airplanes. The largest system currently under development is the Airborne Laser (ABL), a heavily modified Boeing 747 freighter aircraft with a nose-mounted rotating turret containing a chemical oxygen iodine laser. The system mixes chemicals found in common household cleaners, such as bleach and Drano, to create an invisible laser beam with a devastating power output of up to two megawatts (enough power to run a small town). Each 747 will store enough reactants for about 20 shots before refueling. This laser will be considerably more powerful than the THEL, capable of shooting down large missiles, such as SCUDs, from hundreds of miles away. There's also talk about using ABL to shoot down enemy planes.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/n19981103_981668.html
Laser-targeting pods permit precision strikes
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. MUCH higher quality videos of this phenomena available here:
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. beam me up...i have the links but I'm tired so,first thing
tomorrow I will watch these videos and thanks for pushing this forward. we need to find justice for the victims of 911..this will be the 5th anniversary of the M-U-R-D-E-R-S. I say murders because that's what they are..brought to us by scumbag oilmen,neocons from Texas who needed this attack to advance their own BASTARD
CHILD --- PNAC.


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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. wow, it DOES look like there are sparks flying away from the
steel. Good pictures, I'm glad I have that link now.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. woah, look at the sparks at the beginning of the first clip, then
look at the sparks in the third caused by thermite. No wonder people think it's thermite! and that relatively small amount blew that car up. it eats away at everything until it's gone.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. just watched your videos..excellent look from the north and
what do you believe is dripping? I also watched the thermite demonstration. Looks awfully suspicious the demo and the WT2 tower. hack says its "water" ludicrous I say. hack says its "aluminum" but if so,there are even more intense fires to the left and right of the drip that we're focusing on.
I'd also like to see a thread open up with passionate 911 hunters comparing all the evidence that can be accumulated from the varieties of sources,internet newspapers,cable news,journals, etc...
Still all in all beam me up,that was a good find !!
you know after watching that thermite demo with the car I am convinced beyond doubt "its what we see in WT2"
powerful stuff thermite..


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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
62. thanks-- very interesting. though--
1) not sure that even if that was the corner of the structure melting, it would account for the collapse (though we could assume there is more where we can't see it)
2) that could be some dripping combustible that looks like molten steel (howvever sure looks like molten steel)
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
7. Molten aluminum is the most plausible explanation I've seen.

Based on the known properties of molten aluminum in the presence of hydrated oxides in
concrete, gypsum and rust we propose the following sequence of events involving
aluminum reactions, brought down the Twin Towers on 9-11:

- Boeing 767 aircraft separately strike WTC 1 & 2 and flaming wreckage becomes
lodged in the upper floors of each Tower.

- Combustibles, such as office furniture, paper and plastic, start to burn, fuelled by at
least 10,00 liters of kerosene, and the temperature in the impact zone begins to rise.

- After about 30 minutes, the fires subside, but black smoke continues to pour out of both
Towers showing that the fires are not “out”, but “smoldering”.

- After about 40 minutes, parts of the airframe in WTC 2 approached the critical
temperature range of 500 - 550 C where aluminum alloys starts to soften and melt.

- At 50 minutes, molten aluminum forms and starts to flow from the airframe in WTC 2.

- The molten aluminum re-ignites some of the smoldering fires and rapidly burns through
other combustible materials that survived the initial conflagration. Molten aluminum also
falls onto concrete, gypsum and rusted steel surfaces inducing violent thermite
explosions, dispersing globules of molten metal and igniting new fires.

- The extreme heat generated by the molten aluminum rapidly weakens already damaged
steel columns and trusses in the impact zone causing local slumping and partial collapse.

- The remains of the semi-molten airframe fall to the floor below and mix with fresh
combustible material, air, water, thermite reagents (concrete, gypsum, rust), and sections
of aluminum cladding from the Tower’s façade, initiating more violent explosions.

- This sequence of events is now repeated in a rapidly accelerating, and increasingly
violent cascade of destruction. Gravity adds momentum to the downward acceleration of
the mass of debris and WTC 2 collapses in less than 16 seconds.

- The burning aluminum remaining at the end of the collapse glows brightly for a
moment and illuminates the rising clouds of smoke and dust at ground zero.

- About 25 minutes later, the temperature of the aircraft wreckage in WTC 1 reaches the
critical 500 - 550 C range where molten aluminum starts to flow. The sequence of
events observed in WTC 2 is repeated in WTC 1 and a second global collapse ensues.

_________________________________________________________________

It is indeed ironic that the progressive collapse of the Twin Towers has prompted many
9-11 researchers to reach the erroneous conclusion that deliberately placed thermite
"cutter charges" must have been used to bring down these buildings. The findings
outlined in this article show the underlying reasons for this misconception. Simply put,
thermite-induced reactions were largely responsible for the destruction of the Twin
Towers on that terrible September day in New York City – but the fatal damage was not
from deliberately planted thermite charges.

http://www.911myths.com/WTCTHERM.pdf


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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. the bigger the denial the greater the truth...did you even
watch the videos? Yes? No? Thermite cutter charges sounds plausible to me..that's more reasonable than aluminum dripping for if you viewed the video you'll see even more intense fires on the left and right but
no dripping molten metal..NONE
Why do you 911 DEBUNKERS deny what your eyes see? YOU, LARED, hack and Kevin no matter what was put forward you 4 are there to denounce it..way to go !! bet the dead of 911 are crying in their graves.

WATCH THE VIDEOS AND THE DEMAND YOUR PRESIDENT REOPEN 911 !!!!!

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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. psst, they know their posts are ridiculous, they are trying to
disrupt the threads and prevent discussion. Take a look at the threads and watch what happens when one of them (or one of one persons several names) starts posting.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. thanks miranda...these people are making me angry..
they distract me but then inspirem me to find even greater 911 truths..btw, that thermite demo and a closer look at WT2 posted by "beam me up" is outstanding. I hope you saw it, if not..here

Beam Me Up (1000+ posts) Fri Feb-17-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. MUCH higher quality videos of this phenomena available here:
1: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-29912547401458...

2: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-85647721032374...

And don't miss this:

http://www.yikers.com/video_thermite_destroys_all.html

THANKS AGAIN MY FRIEND FOR THE ENCOURAGEMENT
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. yes, I saw it and the similarity between the spark effect with
the wtc vid and the sparks in the thermite vid is SPOT ON. I posted that last night.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. You've provided zero reasonable rebuttal to the link.
Attacking the motives of those who see things differently than you is a sign that you aren't considering all evidence with an open mind. But, if you want to hurt your credibility, go right ahead.

It's pretty clear that you didn't read the link for comprehension:

"Simply put, thermite-induced reactions were largely responsible for the destruction of the Twin Towers on that terrible September day in New York City..."


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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Molten Aluminum . . .
Molten aluminum does not glow white/orange as we see in these videos.

What you are seeing is a molten ferrous metal, the molten surface is oxidizing. Same phenomena can be observed with an oxyacetylene torch -- or, more to the point, THERMITE.

Aluminium does not glow bright orange and doesn't flare white where molten blobs splash. Aluminum forms a "skin" as it cools in air, the red glow diminishing rapidly as it flows away from the heat source. You'd do well to get it a few inches from a heat source, such as a blow torch, and remain liquid, let alone many many feet--UNLESS there is a lot of oxygenated energy at the source. Again, that would be THERMITE which is powdered aluminum and iron oxide (oxygenated iron or rust).
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Who said molten aluminum glows?
Who said that aluminum was the only heated metal in that part of the building?

It appears that you didn't read the pdf either.


"“Starting around 9:52 a.m., a molten material began to pour from the
top of window 80-256 on the north face of WTC 2. The material appears
intermittently until the tower collapses at 9:58:59 a.m. The observation
of piles of debris in this area combined with the melting point behaviors of
the primary alloys used in a Boeing 767 suggest that the material is molten
aluminum derived from aircraft debris located on floor 81.”"

_____________________________________________________________________

Occurrence of Thermite Type Compounds at the WTC
If we look at H & K’s list of compounds that have the potential to induce “catastrophic
explosions” in the presence of molten aluminum, namely, water, lime, gypsum and rust,
we see that all of them were present in the Twin Towers during 9-11:

Water:
The Boeing 767 aircraft impacts caused major structural damage over several floors in
each Tower. Sprinkler systems were installed in the Twin Towers but apparently failed to
operate during the catastrophic events of 9-11. Certainly, however, many plumbing
fixtures near the aircraft impact zones would have ruptured and spilled water, especially
in washrooms and kitchenettes, but also in office areas where water coolers, coffee
makers and drink vending machines would have broken and spilled their contents.

Lime:
Lime is calcium oxide and forms the base for all cements and concretes where it typically
constitutes 60 – 67 wt %. (WTC 1 & 2 contained an estimated 48,000,000 kg of concrete
per Tower.) The principal binding agent in concrete is calcium silicate hydrate. The water
of hydration of this compound, constituting 5 – 7 % of the weight of concrete, is present
in the form of H2O bridges between Ca-O and Si-O layers. This water accounts for much
of the chemical bonding that forms between lime and silica during the manufacture of
concrete. As previously noted, the combination of water and metal oxide bonding in
concrete makes this material very susceptible to explosive reactions in the presence of
molten aluminum.

Gypsum:
Gypsum is hydrated calcium sulfate, CaSO4.2H2O. It is the principal ingredient of
wallboard (75 – 90 wt %) but is also used as a binder or filler in fireproofing and
insulating materials. Large quantities of gypsum wallboard, typically 5/8-inches thick,
were used to enclose exit stairwells and elevator shafts throughout the Twin Towers.

Rust:
Rust, which is essentially a mixture of ferric oxides and hydroxides, readily forms on iron
or low alloy steels exposed to moist air at ambient temperatures. Post 9-11 photographs
of the WTC at ground zero show many rusted steel members in the rubble piles. The iron
oxide film thickness measured on selected samples by NIST and FEMA investigators was
consistent with the expected level of corrosion of carbon steel after 30 years exposure to
the urban/maritime environment of NYC. As shown below, rust may be induced to react
violently with aluminum, both in its molten and solid state.



http://www.911myths.com/WTCTHERM.pdf
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Christophera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Accurate W/regard To Aluminum. Here Are Molten Steel Images
Edited on Fri Feb-17-06 01:18 PM by Christophera






Aluminum forms a skin immediately as its conductant loss of heat causes it to solidify. And, there is no aluminum of mass inside the building. The only real quantity is in the facade, spread out over the perimeter walls. To consider that enough aluminum from the plane was over fuel fires hot enough to melt is not quite reasonable
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. 154,323 pounds of aluminum isn't enough?
And that's just from the aircraft - it doesn't include the aluminum facade of the building.

Since there were no other metals in the Twin Towers that could melt at the temperatures
present in WTC 1 & 2 during 9-11 – i.e. less than 800 C, it must be concluded that
molten aluminum was produced in significant quantities from the melting of airframe
debris in a least one Twin Tower (WTC 2). However, from the different trajectories of
the aircraft strikes on WTC 1 & 2, it appears that the fuselage of the aircraft that struck
WTC 2 came to rest closer to an exterior wall than the aircraft that struck WTC 1 which
stopped deep inside this building. NIST report that the fires in WTC 2 were less active
than those observed in WTC 1. In addition, the maximum temperature reached inside the
Towers was probably higher for WTC 1 than for WTC 2 because Tower 1 burned for 102
minutes compared to 56 minutes for WTC 2. Given these facts, it is probable that molten
aluminum was produced in both Towers, but was only observed at one location, namely
spilling out of a broken window in WTC 2.
It is obviously very difficult to estimate how
much molten aluminum was produced in either of the Twin Towers during 9-11.
However, from the temperature and heat flux estimates reported by NIST, and the mass
of aluminum exposed, it is probable that as much as 10,000 kg of molten aluminum
formed in each Tower.
http://www.911myths.com/WTCTHERM.pdf


"To consider that enough aluminum from the plane was over fuel fires hot enough to melt is not quite reasonable"

Instead of simply labeling it as being unreasonable, why not explain your reasoning? You know, act as though you were trying to prove your case.
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Christophera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Most Fuel Burned Outside Of #2, Gravity Spreads Unburned, Floors Prevent
drafting near the core where the aluminum stopped.

I've just provided enough reasoning to show there was not enough fuel or aluminum in its proximity to cause a flow of aluminum. Here is more.

Certainly aluminum melted in WTC 2. I imagine a few tons of it was molten for a number of minutes, here and there throughout the burning, impact area. What is seen in the video is perhaps 4 to 6 inches thick of liquid pouring out.

Survior accounts mention water running down stairways, certainly the same flow could occur outside the core even though the water lines were in the core.


I am certain that there was thermite in the basement on the perimeter box columns and the interior box columns because of the molten steel in the basement. There simply is no other way to create that much molten steel that quickly. Forget debris fires putting out that much heat, impossible.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Fuel fires are irrelevant to this point.
The amount of aluminum available and the melting point of aluminum is relevant.
You may also throw in the fact that if steel glows orange when molten, then it can't be molten steel that is leaking from the building. According to the video, the liquid is light shades of grey.

The liquid is seen coming from the building well after the fuel had burned off.
It wasn't jet fuel that was burning for an hour before the collapse and weeks after the collapse below the debris.
There were other combustibles in the building, I'm sure we see eye to eye on that point.


You said: "there is no aluminum of mass inside the building. The only real quantity is in the facade, spread out over the perimeter walls. To consider that enough aluminum from the plane was over fuel fires hot enough to melt is not quite reasonable."

So, do you now acknowledge that there was plenty of aluminum inside the building? (154,323 pounds)
Do you acknowledge that aluminum melts at 660 degrees celsius?
Do you acknowledge that the "liquid" is seen coming from the building at a point near the aircraft impact?
Do you acknowledge that both buildings were clad with 2 million kilograms of aluminum?
Do you acknowledge that the liquid pouring from the building wasn't glowing orange?
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Christophera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Fuel Fires Spread Flame-I've Acknowledged Most Already
Edited on Fri Feb-17-06 04:50 PM by Christophera
So, do you now acknowledge that there was plenty of aluminum inside the building? (154,323 pounds)
Do you acknowledge that aluminum melts at 660 degrees celsius?
Do you acknowledge that the "liquid" is seen coming from the building at a point near the aircraft impact?
Do you acknowledge that both buildings were clad with 2 million kilograms of aluminum?
Do you acknowledge that the liquid pouring from the building wasn't glowing orange?


There was probably very little aluminum on the inside of the building. The outside of the building had tons, I've said this regarding the facade.

Yes, aluminum melts at 660 degrees celsius

When saying I think water pipers in the core were broken by plane impact, I acknowledge the liquid comes from a point near impact.



I consider this to be a very accurate animation and have studied it for over year. Notice, the planes nose connects with the core corner which is also in a perpindicular position to the liquid flowing from the floor.

I already mentioned the facade as the only real mass of aluminum related to the building and I've posted images of molten steel.



Why are you ignoring what I've shown I know and asking me to acknowledge these issues redundantly?



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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. You can't sanely say that 154,323 pounds of aluminum
is "very little", even speaking in relative terms.

to recap:


Do you acknowledge that both buildings were clad with 2 million kilograms of aluminum?

- Yes

Do you acknowledge that aluminum melts at 660 degrees celsius?

- Yes

Do you acknowledge that the "liquid" is seen coming from the building at a point near the aircraft impact?

- Not clearly addressed


Do you acknowledge that the liquid pouring from the building wasn't glowing orange?

- Not addressed

So, do you now acknowledge that there was plenty of aluminum inside the building? (154,323 pounds)

- No, you don't want to admit how much of the aircraft was comprised of aluminum.



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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #40
57. Aluminum becomes liquid before it glows
Color is a direct indicator of temperature regardless of the material.
Glowing red = ~800c. At 660c nothing glows visibly, it glows in infra-red.

Steel otoh will glow before it melts

color-temperature:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body
http://webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/3B.html

steel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. Good catch, thanks for bringing that up.
I didn't want to include black body radiation in the discussion yet, for some reason. ;)

I'm not sure why you posted the color temperature links though, because color temperature doesn't equal thermal temperature.

But to summarize:

- The material falling from WTC2 can't be molten steel because it isn't glowing.
- Molten aluminum is first roughly the color of solid aluminum before it's heated even further.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #65
72. The material falling from WTC2 can be molten steel because it is glowing
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Yep, that's orange all right.
But can we be sure it's liquid?
Can we be sure it's molten steel?
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. can you be sure its molten aluminum ? ny
since that your spin, aluminum. someone else mentioned wood (lol) rugs,and some other nonsensical item. greyl
its metal period. has every indication of metal and after viewing that thermite vid. wow.. thermite once ignited cant be stopped as in that video. but how did thermite get there? maybe it was part of someone's luggage? maybe CIA special ops wired that corner of WT2? maybe when Marvin Bush pulled out the bomb sniffing dogs 1 week earlier the explosives were planted? What is your take?

Dem
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. No, I can't be sure and I admit it.
I think it's important to consider the probabilities and degrees of certainty that are necessary to making a plausible case.

Now, in the video you posted, the falling material is behaving like a liquid and is not glowing orange.
Steel doesn't melt before glowing orange.
Therefore, it's not steel.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. alright..what is it greyl? tell me..its not aluminum
so..what the fuck is it..I say steel laden with thermite cutter charges. and you say?


Dem
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #76
80. Can we be sure it is liquid? Have you seen the video? It flows and drips.
And its color indicates a temperature of some 1000c or more.
If is were aluminium it would have been flowing and dripping long before it reached that temperature and that color.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. no, it's not reasonable, but a great way to hijack a thread and prevent
real discussion.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Pic of molten aluminum
?x=380&y=253&sig=aEQC1xsrXhnRp04TOy6jmQ--
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Gee thanks for supporting my argument. Is it glowing orange? nt
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Christophera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Reason Always Hijacks Threads And Shatters Errors Of Assumption
Edited on Fri Feb-17-06 05:32 PM by Christophera
I really like the discussion. Let us get this out of the way. Just because I don't give an inch when I don't think I'm wrong should not prevent real discussion, it actually makes it more real because of the logic applied.

What if you folks that think this sensational, titillating notion of thermite above the basement compromises the real search for 9-11 truth attempted by people actually having the basic knowledge to analyze the raw evidence compromised or diminished in its import by dilution. I mean real solid issues get mixed in with fluff and there are people that don't know the difference.

Just because we have a secret government that planned and execute this doesn't mean that any discussion about what might have happened can be termed tolerable. There are priorities. In this arena, if you can't observe them, well, .............. you will damage them.

I admit it's fully possible that aluminum could melt and run out of the building. I think it is very unlikely that enough aluminum was in the right position to get hot enough to form and flow as the video shows. It actually looks like water for the most part. There is one moment when it reflects light enough to say it might be aluminum.

Whatever, it really isn't that important and, ........... the evidence lacks corroboration.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Wow, you're being reasonably responsive. I like it. :)
"I admit it's fully possible that aluminum could melt and run out of the building. I think it is very unlikely that enough aluminum was in the right position to get hot enough to form and flow as the video shows. It actually looks like water."

So, you don't think it's steel anymore? Is it only because it's not glowing orange like molten steel does?

Yes, looking closely at the video, we'd have to admit that one can't be certain what the material is. Based on the evidence I've seen, I don't think water can be totally eliminated. Who's to say it wasn't both? It comes back to the most likely and plausible explanation, though, and I'd bet it was aluminum.

I'd put money on it because of:
- The color of the liquid
- The overwhelming presence of 150,000 pounds of aluminum near the point of impact.
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Christophera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Never Did Think It Was Steel, Might Be Aluminum But Doubted.
This post says that in many ways.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=71278&mesg_id=71401

There is really only one moment where it looks like aluminum. As unlikly as it seems, it could be aluminum for the very reasons you cite.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. One thread a time, please. :)
Edited on Fri Feb-17-06 06:32 PM by greyl
I'm not ducking the other thread, I haven't checked the link yet. (chances are I've read it already, though)

In this thread, what is the OP insinuating?


edit: I'm embarassed. That was a link to one your posts in this thread, duh.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Well, it DOES kind of look like it, BUT
this is right before the collapse, and it seems as though most of the plane aluminum would have been gone by then, unless it had been becoming increasing hotter which puts us back to the idea of why would a fire that was ignited by kerosene become increasingly hot (which has been discussed a million times).
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
64. Yes, it does. There's nothing that points to "it's not aluminum".
There's no good reason to believe it isn't aluminum. Is there?

"this is right before the collapse, and it seems as though most of the plane aluminum would have been gone by then,"

What logic did you use to reach that conclusion? What reason to have to believe that all 150,000 pounds of aluminum on the aircraft would have melted away, out of our sight, in an hour?
Doesn't it make sense that molten aluminum would have pooling and flowing following gravity?
As the buildings were clad in aluminum, doesn't it make sense that molten aluminum eventually worked it's way out of the aluminum exterior at a point already damaged by the impact?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #64
73. There is now that we've established
aluminium becomes liquid at a temperature low enough so that the aluminium does not glow.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. rman,,if that was aluminum why isn't there more rivers of molten
liquid aluminum to the left and right of that red/white hot drip we see in the video? Can only be steel to me with well placed thermite cutter charges all that was needed to ignite it was lets say, a commercial jet crashing into that floor.Once ignited thermite doesn't seem to be controllable I saw that with in the demo posted by beam me up. Don't forget this, 2 minutes before the collapse massive explosions were heard and caught on tape from across the hudson river. 9 blasts
I'd like to see a poll but don't know how to poll here,will you help me?

question I have is:
did 19 arabs and fire bring down the WTC or was the WTC an inside job brought down with well placed explosives ? No middle ground one must take a position.

Thanks Dem
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #75
81. Good observation; if the fire was hot enough to raize the temperature
so that aluminium did not just melt, but so that it glows orange/yellow, and given that there was so much aluminium in the towers - then why is not much more aluminium dripping from the towers?
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. thanks rman..supporters of aluminum should realize
that intense fires were raging and more aluminum should be visible. In fact we see no other drips of molten metal anywhere, none.. So for me that theory is shot down and molten steel tops the list..

Thanks buddy !!^5


Dem

BTW, the site with the molten video has been pulled terrorize dk no longer operates h'm?
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
53. molten steel
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. good pictures too bad they weren't in color..shit !!
thanks my friend for the molten pour of steel..It's been quite a day around here but at least I learned who the real 911 hunters are opposed to dis-info artists and debunkers..

Your a credit to America and the memories of the fallen on Sept.11 2001 :hi: :hi: :yourock:
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Here is a color molten steel


compare to photo in #5 message
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. good picture my friend...
molten steel in liquid form. How hot should that be? 2000 degrees? Can office furniture,rugs,drywall etc. achieve those temps to melt steel? If so, we would have seem more rivers of molten steel from various locations on the mortally wounded towers but we only saw that one area on WT2 dripping molten metal. But the basements in the WTC were a different story. I only have firemen accounts to read but them claim 6 weeks later pools of molten metal were still hot.
I can't and wont ever accept aluminum. Sorry any and all 911 debunker's who read this but 911WAS AN INSIDE JOB the WTC was wired with explosives and all that was needed was good cover like lets say, a commercial jet crashing into the building..
Thanks for the picture..
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. There are people who know a lot about this
on this forum, I don't , whatever your original pictures is of, there were witnesses who say that they saw molten steel in the basement.
"Construction steel has an extremely high melting point of about 2,800° Fahrenheit (1535° Celsius)." that is what I found on the steel melting temp.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. miranda..some here say, its aluminum
I disagree because the raging fires we see would have caused more areas to melt.we don't see that. I say its\
steel melting from thermite cutter charges. No doubt under the debris field as the WT2 collapsed there were
other areas cut with thermite. We Americans could have had answers to this mystery had scumbag rudy giuliani
not shipped the steel out of NYC, and why should he have "destroyed that evidence?" Ground Zero was a crime scene. The landfill where the steel went was closed, it had ample room to store the steel for months and years
allowing engineers scientists and other investigatory people to learn why the steel failed.
But no, we're left to argue with "911 DEBUNKER'S" at DU who seem to want to disrupt the flow we share..

Anyway,thanks again for the look..
hope you find more incriminating evidence that blows away that "ludicrous" 911 report..


DEM
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. the flying sparks in one of the #5 pictures make me agree with you.nt
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. I saw you agreed the laser light show was fascinating..
so did I..I watch where all it took was heat to ignite thermite and once lit no way to extinguish it..but then the bush crime family wanted total destruction on 911.
Those dripping blobs coming off WT2 high above the street as well as pools of molten metal found in the basements of all 3 buildings is peculiar. More disturbing is molten metal in the basement of World Trade 7 a very nasty loose end..

DEM


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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. I think a thermite reaction is probable.
I agree with you that a thermite reaction is probably taking place.
What color is molten steel?
What color is molten aluminum?
What are the scientifically valid theories about the temperature of the fires in the WTCs?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. What color is molten steel? nt
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
69. I don't think aluminum changes color when it is molten
Edited on Sun Feb-19-06 01:12 AM by Jose Diablo
My experience with molten aluminum is it stays 'silvery'. This is experience working in aluminum extrusion plants.

Those first few frames show a bright orange color. Compare that to the deep red flames of the office furnishings and jet fuel (I presume) coming from the broken window a few floors up.

I wonder if someone could run a spectral analysis on the color of the flames to get an idea of the temperature of what we are looking at.

It looks like molten iron to me, with aluminum mixed in. In a thermite reaction, this is exactly what we would see. Thermite is rusted iron powder with ground-up aluminum oxide mixed in at a 3 to 1 ratio. When is 'burns' what flows out is molten iron and aluminum.

If what we are seeing is thermite, capture a sample of the pixel colors and run a spectral on it, I think we will see it's far above any carbon based 'burn'. If thermite, it can go as high as 4500 deg F. Way way above jet fuel.

Edit: I should add jet fuel can burn much hotter if compressed air, more oxygen and fuel are burned at once, like in the cans of a jet engine or with an fan jet leading into the turbo section. But in one atmosphere, it will burn a red, just like we see.

Son of a Bitch, somebody did bring it down. If we could just explain the strong seimic signal at the beginning of the collaspe now. Thats why I thought the thermite was in the basement close to the bedrock. Think of it like a hammer hitting the bedrock as thermite melted the box tube cores and the stubs slammmed into the core footing.

Is the 80th floor the upper mechanical room? Who was on the 80th floor? What companies?

As for a LASER, a CO2 could definately do this, but at what range? I didn't see any LASER beams, I'll look closer at the vid again.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. You're right, I posted pictures above
all the molten aluminum pics I found were this beautiful liquid silver and the molten steel (also above) was always orange; usually with with sparks like a welding affect.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. are those pictures of molten steel a smoking gun? a few say
its water,rotf!! Thanks to miranda linking molten aluminum and your input as to aluminum in a liquid form is still silvery..way to go DU-ers. Also firemen reporting pools of molten metal in the basements of the WTC 6 weeks after the attacks. Smells !!! Another suspicious move Sir Rudy Giuliani quickly disposing that WTC steel shipping it off to China. Very suspicious for the landfill where it was stored was spacious,closed and no problems getting to and from the site to inspect that steel. No engineers,no scientists,no investigators
NO EVIDENCE.. I still say,
911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB...
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