Another logical fallacy - the Wacky Caveman theory

(added link and attribution)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x8972#9216

"See, there was this bad man who lived in a cave, and one day he decided to send over some of his folowers to hijack some planes and stuff, and just fly 'em into the WTC & Pentagon." - Abe Linkman

Isn't this just a lovely example of "straw man".

Osama bin Laden is no cave man. Cave men do not have access to dialysis. Osama bin Laden did not hijack planes - his "folowers" [sic] did. Even if OBL may be currently living in a cave, there's no expectation that his followers are.

He did not "one day" suddenly decide he didn't like the United States - this has been going on for years. He's been behind other attacks on the United States. Clinton tried to do something about it. Dubya didn't. There's your conspiracy.

The WTC was certain a juicy target. Remember the bombing in the parkade? So was the Pentagon. I'm surprised they didn't try for the White House or some other capital building, but that was probably the flight that crashed in a field.

It's not hard to get an airplane into restricted airspace. Some kid landed/crashed a Cessna on the White House lawn IIRC.

As we've seen, it's not difficult to hijack an airliner. Back when I was a kid it was commonplace. Gore saw this coming and tried to get something done about it. Why didn't it happen? There's your conspiracy.

after all it's the only theory they gave him.

He's still talking about it in another one.

"Osama bin Laden is no cave man. Cave men do not have access to dialysis. Osama bin Laden did not hijack planes - his "folowers" did. Even if OBL may be currently living in a cave, there's no expectation that his followers are."

That must have been one of his doubles who was seen at two different hospitals...the last visit of which was at a military hospital in Pakistan a day or two before 9-11. Or, maybe he has several doubles...you know, like the Saddam double who was "captured".

According to you, his followers went to Jesus on 9-11, so they most assuredly aren't living in a cave.

If OBL is a straw man, and he certainly is; he's also a cave man.

He even fit in a tourist stop, one particularly apt for this vice president, THE CAVEMAN OF WASHINGTON who has spent many days since Sept. 11 in a "secure, undisclosed location." He toured the Cabinet War Rooms, the once-secret underground World War II bunker of Prime Minister Winston Churchill.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-031502cheney,1,2576833.story

As much as he's been a Washington fixture for three decades, Richard B. Cheney, 62, remains a figure sketchily drawn. He is the second most powerful man in the Bush administration, both in constitutional rank and, it would seem, real influence.

Yet to a large degree, Cheney remains publicly defined by his invisibility. His profile, intentionally low to begin with, shrinks more so next to the president and the administration's rock stars (Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell). Cheney is the one known for disappearing, into a "secure undisclosed location." ("There are a few of them, actually," he says.) Few people know where he is much of the time, where he resides at night. Only that he's somewhere. And powerful.
<snip>
....One friend describes Cheney as naturally dour, but not in a way that paralyzes or debilitates. Tony Coelho recalls being part of a congressional delegation that traveled to Russia in the 1980s. The wife of Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) administered personality tests to a group of congressmen, just for fun. Cheney was found best-suited to being a funeral director.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A26411-2004Jan17¬Found=true

Cheney seems unperturbed about the criticism he receives. In the interview with USA Today and the Los Angeles Times, he was asked whether he felt compelled to deal with "the caricature of you that has evolved over the last three years, the whole undisclosed location thing, the sinister force behind the president's policies."

"Why do I want to deal with it?" Cheney replied. "What's wrong with my image?"

"Am I the evil genius in the corner that nobody ever sees come out of his hole?" he added. "It's a nice way to operate, actually."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A47467-2004Jan25¬Found=true

That must have been one of his doubles who was seen at two different hospitals...(1)

the last visit of which was at a military hospital in Pakistan a day or two before 9-11.(2)

Or, maybe he has several doubles...(3)


you know, like the Saddam double who was "captured".(4)

According to you, his followers went to Jesus on 9-11, so they most assuredly aren't living in a cave.(5)

If OBL is a straw man, and he certainly is; he's also a cave man.(6)

Wow six new straw men. Impressive.

Don't forget about the straw babies (Kuwait) & straw baby killers (Kuwait).

Now, add yours to the list.

Very good

The idea of the "Whacky Caveman & Cavemen Did It" came first from the US government. G*B was one of the first to claim so. DD was just repeating the phrase. And even you, Trogl, disagree with it. Good. Yer getting with the program. It is an idiotic statement and anyone who believes in that very same 'official' theory rides in the very same hi-jacked flight of fancy as GWB.

You ask: "Gore saw this coming and tried to get something done about it. Why didn't it happen? There's your conspiracy." Ahyuuu, there is where the real conspiracy takes root. Gore, et al, tried to get something done. Ahyuuu. They did indeed. But when GWB got seated, he conspired to MIHOP. Glad to see you, Trogl, getting with the program.

One by one we are convincing you folks to see what you have so hardily tried to deny. One by one ya'll are getting with the program; the program that reads: Someone, somewhere, in a back, black corner of the US government, conspired with other conspirators to bring death and destruction to America in a new "Pearl Harbor" type of attack meant to terrorize the American people. And then blame it all on some "Whacky Caveman."

It is good to see you disagree with the official story.

There's nothing new here.

It's along the lines of "the police knew the Jones boy was gonna burn my barn down and did nothing" vs. "the government used a ray gun to burn down my barn".

Let It Happen On Purpose. Let it happen. Hmmmm... So, are you saying that they knew airplanes were to be used as missiles? Or that they just had a good idea that something was going to happen, on a certain date, in a certain location? Or was there just a general lack of concern all the way around and they just said: Well, it's bound to happen, so...

LIHOP has all those levels -and more- so if it isn't to much bother how about telling me which level you stand on?

I'm still unconvinced; what did they know, when did they know, and from where did they hear about it? There are far too many loose ends to hold fast to any one theory.

I am not a conservative. Get over it.

My suspicion is that they knew terrorists were training in-country. I'd even listen to an argument that they invited them over. I think they even knew aircraft were going to be involved. At that point everything went to hell. All they wanted was an excuse to invade Afghanistan (the Great Game) and Iraq (Oil wars II). Practically anything would have done the trick.

• catch hijackers at the airport with maps and boxcutters
  
• a bungled hijacking thrwarted in mid-air
  
• one plane hits something
  
• several planes hit something
  
• something falls down
  
• several things fall down
  
• all planes reach target
  
• all things fall down
  

I think Dubya got scared because it went TOO well, but he got his trifecta.

You think they just had a general lack of concern and thought: Awww hell, it'll happen no matter what we do but we will sure take advantage of whatever happens and invade Iraq?

Is that it? Or would you take a liberal leap and say that they knew terrorists were training here, and that the hi-jackings would be allowed just to see what happened and then take advantage and invade?

If either of these positions are close to how you really feel, then I would suggest that you, Trogl, could be considered by most people to be a conspiracy theorist. A crazy whacked conspiracist. Did ya ever consider that?

So why in hell are ya going around here whacking away at alternate theories? Makes no sense. Get with the program.

Go look at my website (link below).

I simply believe in conspiracies for which there's actual proof that doesn't require me to stop believing in the laws of physics, logic and causality.

Explain AA77 disappearing from radar.

Explain how a woman can stand in the hole in the WTC where you say a fire so intense was burning that it melted steel.

Explain how cell phones that normally don't work above 4,000 feet mol can suddenly work one day.

Explain how student pilots can perform acrobatic maneuvers with aircraft pulling g-forces which would knock out an astronaut.

No one has yet explained these feats. At least not with any physics or logic. And I got a feeling you can't either.

Therein lies the rub: so far no one has come close to explaining what happened except by the use of compelling, alternate theories.

(formatting)

Argument by exhaustion. If you're losing, pretend to never have heard the other side's argument before. Get them to repeat themselves endlessly until they drop from exhaustion.

Explain AA77 disappearing from radar.

That's already been discussed on another thread by people more qualified than I.

Explain how a woman can stand in the hole in the WTC where you say a fire so intense was burning that it melted steel.

Photoshopping. The picture is faked. Neither the woman nor the man show up in the original picture. We've covered that already.

Explain how cell phones that normally don't work above 4,000 feet mol can suddenly work one day.

Cell phones work just fine above 4000 feet as long as they've got line of sight to a repeater. Aircraft near NYC would have their choice of many repeaters. We've covered this already. You aren't allowed to use cell phones on aircraft because they screw up the navigation, not because they don't work.

Explain how student pilots can perform acrobatic maneuvers with aircraft pulling g-forces which would knock out an astronaut.

I've seen no discussion of excessive G forces. Ordinary people can withstands multiple G's on roller coasters. Jet fighters (and shuttles) are designed to handle multiple G's. Ordinary aircraft aren't. If an ordinary aircraft were subjected to enough G's to knock out a pilot, the wings would fall off.

First you posted no link.... your credibility is dipping.

You say you like physics yet you dismiss all the physics involved in your "explanations"... your debate skills need some work, eh?

You dismiss the facts that have been covered so many times with your selection of a few choice brain farts. You provide nothing to back up your assertions -- no links, no physics, nothing solid. Just brain farts.

Most of us here are seekers. We seek facts. We know the "Whacky Caveman Theory" is full of brain farts and we reject it, and there having been no justification given by you or anyone else here to prop up that "Caveman" theory we remain correct in our rejection.

I have no idea why you persist in your miserable failure of debate, but it is a free country, and you may continue. Just realize that you are on the side of those who would continue to keep the truth from the people. There can be no debate about that -- you are very conservative sounding.

(fixed link)

Insults. Innuendo. Fallacy.

First you posted no link

Of course not. I refuse to be a party to argumentum ad nauseum. Do your homework.

We seek facts.

You seek justifications for your insane delusions - invisible aircraft, holograms.

no justification given by you or anyone else here to prop up that "Caveman" theory

Of course not. "Caveman" is a straw man cooked up by Abe Linkman.

Just realize that you are on the side of those who would continue to keep the truth from the people.

Dubya says the sky is blue.
I say the sky is blue.
Therefore everything I think is the same as Dubya thinks.

You need a grounding in logic. Click here.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

Sad to see such a digression. Sad to see the clutching at straws whilst trying to keep from drowning amongst an ocean of alternate possibilities now that you've lost your footing on the USS "It was Cavemen".

No links, no logic, no physics. Just Trogling between brain farts -- those are the only things keeping you afloat -- that and your straw.

So why do I keep trying to save you?

Because I know how you feel. 'Tis a terrible thing to consider that the ship of state has conspired to deceive it's people. Not only deceive, but actually destroy a fair number of them, all for it's selfish game of empire.

'Tis far easier to wake in the morn' and believe that the rulers are benevolent and will cause no harm to me and mine.

Aye... but those days are past and the sad reality is so very hard to accept. But accept, you must. You are halfway there. There is hope for you yet. That's why.

In the thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=8105&mesg_id=8105
Trogl posted this:

TrogL Sun Feb-15-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You need to prove a lot more than that


You need to prove step by step that this person performed the crime and exactly how he did it, or alternatively, prove that he didn't.

There being no proof offered that the "Caveman did it" and plenty of evidence to the contrary, I thought that maybe, just maybe, Trogl had come to his senses and had seen just how foolish his attempts at hiding the facts had become.

Looks like I was wrong.

"Caveman did it" is a "straw man" invented by Abe Linkman.

He's the only person who believes in it.

There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. I've even posted some of it.

You didn't read my link - did you?

In fact, you haven't read anything I've written, have you?

With this much straw laying around, you need to stop play with matches.

You've picked up the "straw man" habit from Abe. You post things I never said, then criticize me for saying them.

You're the one clutching at straws - "straw man" addiction.

Now be a good boy and go learn the rules of debate.

In post 13 you write about needing "proof that doesn't require me to stop believing in the laws of physics, logic and causality."

I´m just curious : The passport found in the WTC rubble - is it proof that the hijacker was on the plane? Or is it proof that somebody planted a passport? Is it proof that somebody planned to frame these guys allready before the deed (and so got hold of the passport)? Or can we draw none of these conclusions?

Unless there's an unbroken chain of evidence.

You´ve probably seen this. I believe the whole thing has been summed up by a former intelligence official (I´ve heard the name, but can´t remember just now) :

"Many of the investigators believe that some of the initial clues that were uncovered about the terrorists' identities and preparations, such as flight manuals, were meant to be found. A former high-level intelligence official told me, "Whatever trail was left was left deliberately--for the F.B.I. to chase.""



Top ten :

1. Mohamed Atta's Luggage

Mohamed Atta , we are told, brought not one but two suitcases with him on his final suicide trip. Some might say it was a little convenient for the FBI investigators that these two suitcases did not make it from his connecting flight onto his suicide flight.

What was apparently in the bags: Numerous documents including a letter of recommendation and education related documents. (In other words, stuff you would bring to a job interview, not a suicide attack). A handheld flight computer, flight simulator manuals, two videotapes about Boeing aircraft, a slide rule flight calculator, a copy of the Koran, his will and presumably a lot of socks and underpants. All this stuff would have been in the luggage hold, so why bring it? If he was really committing an act of suicidal Jihad he would have brought his Koran on board. (...)

"As it happens, Atta was the only passenger among the 81 aboard American Flight 11 whose luggage didn't make the flight"

2. Ziad Jarrah's Letter to his Girlfriend


Jarrah apparently wrote a farewell letter to his girlfriend - but in spite of having been with her for several years, he managed to send it to the wrong address. So the letter ended up in the hands of the FBI. How lucky is that !

Relatives think that the letter to the girlfriend is a fake.

3. The Letter From the Ringleader

This is the letter apparently from Atta giving last minute encouragement to his pals before going to Allah. Conveniently Mohamed left a copy in his suitcase , someone else left a copy in their apartment for the FBI to find, and miraculously, a third copy was found amongst the tiny pieces of debris at the Flight 93 crash site.

Robert Fisk wrote an article in the Independent last September which effectively ridicules this particular piece of "evidence"

http://www.eionews.addr.com/psyops/news/atta_lastletter_questions.htm - this is a copy of the original article. Read it.

4. The Magic Passport

Many people have pointed this one out since last September. How is it that the FBI found an intact passport belonging to one of the hijackers "several blocks away" from the World Trade centre when all the indestructible black boxes in the aeroplanes were destroyed or lost?

What's really scary is that people actually believe this....

5. Ziad Jarrah's Passport Photo

A fragment of a hijackers passport photo was found at the flight 93 crash site. Just as a side issue - why did they insist on bringing passports when they were on internal flights - AND on suicide missions???


6. DIY Arab Hijacker Kits left in Cars

Another car (not Atta's rental car) was found at Logan airport containing Arabic-language flight training manuals. If Atta was the pilot, why did anyone else need to bring flight manuals with them? A bit of last minute revision?

7. DIY Arab Hijacker Kits left elsewhere

Boeing 757 manuals, three illustrated martial arts books and an 8-inch stack of East Coast flight maps

Al-Shehhi checked out last Sunday without taking a three-ring binder full of handwritten notes, an English-German dictionary, an airplane fuel tester, a protractor, tote bag, aircraft manuals, maps and books, Surma said.

This is a real "When I grow up I want to be a hijacker" set.

8. Arabs Starting Fights Next to Cars full of DIY Arab Hijacker Kits

(...)


The above link mentions this story - anonymous person leads FBI to car were he remembers getting into an argument with some Arabs earlier on. Obviously trying very hard not to draw attention to themselves, these Arab-suicide-hijackers.

9. Copies of the Koran left in Strip Clubs


"Kap said he gave the FBI credit card receipts, photocopied driver's licenses, a business card left by one man and a copy of the Quran - the sacred book of Islam - that was left at the bar."

Yeah, yeah - devout Moslems like Atta really go to strip clubs and really leave copies of the Koran at the bar. Not to mention all the other convenient stuff.

10. Ziad Jarrah builds a replica of a Boeing cockpit in his apartment

http://www.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/news/planes_reconstruction.htm - mentions the replica cockpit built by Jarrah

What would you actually gain from this as a suicide hijacker? This is the cockpit, here is the door, here are the pilots. Not massively complicated. More likely to be done by a twelve year old obsessed with planes or an FBI agent trying to pin the blame on someone?

(Would you believe he built it entirely out of cornflakes packets, egg boxes and toilet-paper tubes. He cut them up very carefully with a box-cutter knife. (Ziad made sure he had adult supervision first which you should do too if you want to build one.) Next week: Ziad builds a radioactive dirty-bomb out of used matches.)

http://www.the-movement.com/Top_10s/evidence.htm

n/t