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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:00 PM
Original message
Why isn't the Dred Scot remark getting more focus?
To me, it was the equivalent of Gerald Ford's comment about Soviet domination of Eastern Europe.

I believe Dred Scot WAS a strict interpretation of the Constitution. The Constitution (at the time) clearly contained inequality for people, counting slaves as three fifths of a person.

So weren't the justices who said that slavery was not anti-constitutional doing the strict interpretation of the Constitution that Bush is holding as his litmus test for appointing new justices?

I believe his remark is the opening that we need to tell the American public which rights we now have that will be overturned in a new court.
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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great question
I guess he was shoring up his civil rights reputation by courageously coming out against slavery .
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not to mention. what was his point? That he won't bring back slavery?
He's already doing that with his labor and banking policies!
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. it's a smirk-boy moment
no one knows what to make of it....kinda like Iraq is a "catastrophic success"
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. The stated issue in Dred Scott: Is a negro entitled to citizenship rights?
Chief Justice Roger Taney wrote: "The question is simply this: Can a negro, whose ancestors were imported into this country, and sold as slaves, become a member of the political community formed and brought into existence by the Constitution of the United States, and as such become entitled to all the rights, and privileges, and immunities, guarantied by that instrument to the citizen? One of which rights is the privilege of suing in a court of the United States in the cases specified in the constitution..."

Of course, the answer, according to Taney, was no.

His reasoning was that under a strict interpretation of the Constitution, the Founding Father's original intent was that slaves were not and could not be citizens:

"It becomes necessary, therefore, to determine who were citizens of the several States when the Constitution was adopted. And in order to do this, we must recur to the Governments and institutions of the thirteen colonies, when they separated from Great Britain and formed new sovereignties, and took their places in the family of independent nations. We must inquire who, at that time, were recognized as the people or citizens of a State, whose rights and liberties had been outraged by the English Government; and who declared their independence, and assumed the powers of Government to defend their rights by force of arms.

In the opinion of the court, the legislation and histories of the times, and the language used in the Declaration of Independence, show, that neither the class of persons who had been imported as slaves, nor their descendants, whether they had become free or not, were then acknowledged as a part of the people, nor intended to be included in the general words used in that memorable instrument.

It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in relation to that unfortunate race, which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted. But the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken.

They had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations; and so far inferior, that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect; and that the negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his benefit. He was bought and sold, and treated as an ordinary article of merchandise and traffic, whenever a profit could be made by it. This opinion was at that time fixed and universal in the civilized portion of the white race. It was regarded as an axiom in morals as well as in politics, which no one thought of disputing, or supposed to be open to dispute; and men in every grade and position in society daily and habitually acted upon it in their private pursuits, as well as in matters of public concern, without doubting for a moment the correctness of this opinion."

In reaching this decision, Taney claimed to do exactly what Bush says he wants judges to do: "It is not the province of the court to decide upon the justice or injustice, the policy or impolicy, of these laws. The decision of that question belonged to the political or law-making power; to those who formed the sovereignty and framed the constitution. The duty of the court is, to interpret the instrument they have framed, with the best lights we can obtain on the subject, and to administer it as we find it, according to its true intent and meaning when it was adopted."

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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Thanks, that's my point exactly (and completely)
Dred Scot seems to be a POSTER CHILD case AGAINST what Bush is saying he will be using as his litmus test.
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beaconess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. You nailed it.
I guess someone told him to use the Dred Scott decision - a decision that hardly anyone would claim was correctly decided today - as an example of the kind of judge he WOULDN'T want. But maybe they should have actually read the case before they trotted him out there to talk about it. They would have realized that Taney is exactly the kind of judge he's been putting on the bench for the past four years - judges who trample all over people's civil and individual rights and then claim "the Founding Fathers made me do it!"
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Carolinian Donating Member (861 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bush didn't have a damn clue what he was talking about.
How in the hell did this idiot get to be President?
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aden_nak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yeah, that was a really stupid move.
He brought up an example of when a strict interpretation of the Constitution had a very tragic result. It did nothing to make his case for Supreme Court Justices that work off of strict interpretation. What he essentially said was, "I'd have picked the kind of Supreme Court that would have said Dred Scott wasn't a human being." It shows that he either had no idea what the Dred Scott case was about, or that his reasoning skills are so poor he couldn't understand WHY it was bad to bring it up.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. You got it!
That whole answer was completely convoluted. I challenge anybody to explain what he meant when he continued with:

"The Constitution of the United States says we're all -- you know, it doesn't say that. It doesn't speak to the equality of America."
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funky_bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Caught that
My first response..."Jeebus... the President of the United States can't even quote the fucking Constitution."

Shameful!
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Bush* Slogan that went through my head during the debate:
"Vote for Bush*--the only candidate to take a stand against slavery"
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Bush's argument was FOR slavery.
That is what the strict interpretation of the Constitution (at the time) led to.


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JPJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. Dred Scott is code speak for Roe v. Wade.
Edited on Sat Oct-09-04 12:26 PM by JPJones
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Oh, I get it
enslave all women by making them give up choice. You could very well be right.
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JPJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. That would be the end result
But conservatives like to:
1) Compare abortion to slavery

2) Say that not including blacks as citizens wasn't in the constitution, and thus the judges were making law, not ruling on the law (which is shaky ground considering the racism of the founding fathers).

3) Say Roe v. Wade and abortion rights have no basis in the constitution.

Follow the link - there are 15,000 web pages linking Dred Scott to Roe v. Wade.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. You are absolutely right
I was thinking that as Bush alluded to the Dred Scott decision. Of course, he couldn't even complete his thought, because I don't think he really knew what the Dred Scott decision was really about.
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LastLiberal in PalmSprings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. That would have been a great follow up
"Mr. President, would you briefly summarize the facts in the Dred Scott case and the Supreme Court ruling? You have 90 seconds."
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
18. Constitution doesn't speak to equality?!?!
Edited on Sat Oct-09-04 01:55 PM by TorchesAndPitchforks
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/debatereferee/debate_1008.html">Transcript: Second Presidential Debate
Washington University, St. Louis, Mo.
October 8, 2004

>>>The Constitution of the United States says we're all -- you know, it doesn't say that. It doesn't speak to the equality of America.

And so, I would pick people that would be strict constructionists. We've got plenty of lawmakers in Washington, D.C. Legislators make law; judges interpret the Constitution.

Let me give you a couple of examples, I guess, of the kind of person I wouldn't pick. <<<

He proceeds to give two examples 1) a case exemplifying "judicial activism" and; 2) a classical case of "strict constructionism" (Dred Scott). Then he states the strict constructionist opinion by Taney was also just a "personal opinion"!!! Thereby destroying whatever logic there may be in his answer.

Nevertheless, he goes on to affirm his support for strict constructionists. His final answer?

<<<No litmus test except for how they interpret the Constitution.<<<

That's THE ONLY LITMUS TEST he would apply to a nominee for the Supreme Court??? How they would "interpret the Constitution" ??? What the hell does that mean? It means everything and nothing the same time -- a classical bushist* non-answer.

Does he really believe the Constitution doesn't speak to equality? I demand a clarification from him on this position at once! The rights of Americans are very much an issue in this first post-911 election, at the dawn of the new Age of Terror. This country deserves a vigorous twenty minute or so debate on Constitutional law, philosophy of government, and the Rights of Man...

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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
19. there are two right wing "arguments" against Roe. Bush was trying for both
I don't buy either of these arguments, and they are totally contradictory, but this is what they are, as I understand them:

One "argument" against Roe is the strict constructionist view. That is, states have the right to ban abortion because the constitution doesn't explicitly say they can't. The 4th Amendment protects against unreasonable search and seizure, but doesn't provide rights to privacy beyond that (hence the "strict constructionist"). So, states can't ban unreasonable search of your uterus, but they can ban abortion.

The second argument is that a fetus is a person, with the rights of a person even if the law doesn't recognize it (like black people should have been recognized). They compare Roe to Dred Scot (as another faulty SCOTUS decision) because they are trying to compare fetuses to black people in the way that the law doesn't recognize citizenship.

Bush, in playing to the base, was doing an ineffective job of trying to use both arguments at once.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Secret Code?
What sounds to most of us as illogical mindless drivel is actually a coded message between bush* and fellow cultists?

Bringing up the Dred Scott case could serve no other logical purpose. Now THAT'S scary!

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