we may not have a president by January 20th

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200411/green

This article shows what lengths Rove will go to to "win" a race, even after the election, even after the votes have been counted and his guy has LOST. He will sue, recount, get ballots disqualified, whatEVER, in order to get his guy into office.

This article describes not the 2000 presidential election but an election for a State Supreme Court Judge in Alabama in 1994.

Kerry needs to win by an undisputed landlside in order to avoid this kind of crap.


(snip)
The race came down to a dispute over absentee ballots. Hornsby's campaign fought to include approximately 2,000 late-arriving ballots that had been excluded because they weren't notarized or witnessed, as required by law. Also mindful of public relations, the Hornsby campaign brought forward a man who claimed that the absentee ballot of his son, overseas in the military, was in danger of being disallowed. The matter wound up in court. "The last marching order we had from Karl," says a former employee, "was 'Make sure you continue to talk this up. The only way we're going to be successful is if the Alabama public continues to care about it.'"

Initially, things looked grim for Hooper. A circuit-court judge ruled that the absentee ballots should be counted, reasoning that voters' intent was the issue, and that by merely signing them, those who had cast them had "substantially complied" with the law. Hooper's lawyers appealed to a federal court. By Thanksgiving his campaign believed he was ahead—but also believed that the disputed absentee ballots, from heavily Democratic counties, would cost him the election. The campaign went so far as to sue every probate judge, circuit clerk, and sheriff in the state, alleging discrimination. Hooper continued to hold rallies throughout it all. On his behalf the business community bought ads in newspapers across the state that said, "They steal elections they don't like." Public opinion began tilting toward him.

The recount stretched into the following year. On Inauguration Day both candidates appeared for the ceremonies. By March the all-Democratic Alabama Supreme Court had ordered that the absentee ballots be counted. By April the matter was before the Eleventh Federal Circuit Court. The byzantine legal maneuvering continued for months. In mid-October a federal appeals-court judge finally ruled that the ballots could not be counted, and ordered the secretary of state to certify Hooper as the winner—only to have Hornsby's legal team appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, which temporarily stayed the case. By now the recount had dragged on for almost a year.

No Peace

Do you think that the repugs might catch a whiff of their own hypocrisy when Rove is still challenging election results 6 months after the election?

Weren't the repugs the first ones screaming bloody murder about how un-american it was, and how destructive to the country it was, for Gore to contest the election results and ask for recounts?

Just one more application of the repugnican double-standard douchebag.

Grumble.

Don't get me wrong, I'm going to work my ass off for a Kerry victory - but I'm very afraid of this election culminating in an unprecedented constitutional crisis if B*sh refuses to concede defeat.

Inauguration Nightmare: Kerry Takes Oath...Bush Barricaded in White House..Refuses to Concede...Advisor Rove Cites Fraud..Demands New Election

Fitzgerald may have him gone by Jan. 20, 2005.

He's a puppet, that's all.

Here's a real president:

He IS a puppet and Clinton WAS a real president!

Come January 20, 2005, if Bush hasn't officially been re-elected, he cannot stay in office, because he will not have qualified. The same goes for Dick Cheney.

So what happens? U.S. Constitution, 20th Amendment, Section 3:

"...and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified."

In other words, Congress can install an interim President of their choosing, until the election result is finally resolved. Sure, it could be Hastert, but unless there's a little-known law out there, I don't think there's anything stopping them from making * the "interim" President and put him back in office.

-MR

This is even worse.

I'm sure Rove already knows this and this will be his strategy.

Challenge the election until Jan 20, then let Congress "decide" for us who will be the prez.

Who do you think this Congress will vote for to be the "interim" president?

Shit. I hate it when I know I'm right about things that haven't happened yet.

We need to call them on this NOW because THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO.

That we didn't have time for the recounts because the chimp needed to get his transition team in place and remember also that Pres. Clinton said that he wasn't going anywhere until Jan 20th so we had plenty of time. But we all know what hypocrites the repugs are!

The new Congress will come into session, and Daschle could be the majority leader. That would tip the scales to Kerry, no?

Oh, this is NOT GOOD!

that Rove will do exactly this.

This is big. And it's NOT good.

As I have predicted on other threads (forgive me if I say it again), I believe that they know Bush will lose the popular vote and they plan to go to overtime through legal challenges in many places.

The fact that we were not told in 2000 that Rove had run a post-election challenge all the way to the Supreme Court previously is malfeasance by America's news people.

America would have reacted very differently to the Bush challenge if we had known about Rove's previous thuggery in the 1990s.

Not to hack the machines, but to challenge them after the election.

And we KNOW that challenge can be valid!

It was the Democrats utter ineptness and inability to fight. The media would never make an issue of something like that unless the Democrats pushed it on them. Why should they stick their necks out, when Lieberman was saying to throw in the towel? I never heard ONE Democrat bring this up.

:kick:

Morning Sedition, Air America, this morning. It truly is scary what Rove is capable of doing to usurp elections; especially the whisper campaigns.

Don't forget that if it's an equal electoral college tie (269:269), then the Senate picks the President and the H of R picks the VP. Currently Republicans control both, but if Dems pick up one or the other houses, then it could make for some very interesting fireworks.

There are some very specific guidelines in Article II section 1 of the constitution (I'm not a constitutional lawyer, so I could be wrong about this, but I believe we have the potential for that scenario). For that matter, I'm not even sure they're limited to choosing among the running candidates. I'm sure the Presidential pick would be either Bush/Kerry, but the H of R could saddle the President with someone very difficult.

If my interpretation of this is wrong, let me know, but if I've got it right, it's just one more weird thing to keep in mind.

After the last four years, I wouldn't rule anything out.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

This is war, folks. Gore and the Democrats gave in in 2000, for the good of the country they thought. Well, the Repukes are still laughing at us. NEVER AGAIN!

We've got to treat every day from now on as a war for America's soul. They have made it abundantly clear that they will do anything, anything, to win, and we must learn to push back even harder and never give an inch.

a full accounting of the votes could take WEEKS!

Either way, all of this is simply unacceptable. As these days have drawn short I'm hearing of ballot snafu's all over the place. WTF?

I can't imagine what MORE individuals can do for the Kerry campaign. Registration periods are closed in most states. Should we then go out and "encourage" Bushites to change their position? What more can be done? $Buck$ are one way....but even so it's the People we want pulling the lever for Kerry.

I like what one person said in here: NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE
Truly this is a war...But sad, very sad.

I looooooooooooooooooooong for the day when I can stop obsessing and WORRYING about this goddamned election! I'm angry, I'm restless, I'm thinking things I shouldn't be thinking, I'm OVERWHELMED by the tension. ..........What I wouldn't give to see Bush Inc. in shackles; like in: HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS.

This could work. All Rove has to do is contest every single state that's close in the 2004 election (and there could be upwards of 15 of them). The courts will be too swamped to resolve all the issues by Jan. 20, and the Republican-controlled congress will choose George W. Bush as the "interim" President. Then, in order to insure stability and to protect the Constitution, it's likely that the courts will rule for Bush. Thus, he will be safely re-selected as President.

In order for this plan to work, Rove needs to be able to argue that the process was screwed up. So, (evidence suggests--look at Florida) he's screwing up the process.

Please, folks, distribute this theory far and wide. When the Republicans argue, with utter indignation on Nov. 3, that the election has been stolen, we need the American people to be aware that this was all part of the Rove plan. That's the only way I can see to thwart this brilliant (but utterly evil) tactic.

I certainly hope I'm wrong about this. But if I'm not, the American expiriment in democracy is in jeopardy.

:scared:

-Laelth

about the Iraq invasion.

It was like a lightbulb going off in my head this morning.

I hate knowing it, but there it is.

We need to get this word out NOW.

you're all forgetting about is that the state legislatures certify the slate of electors chosen in the election. In 2000 the Florida legislature was making it crystal clear that they did not care how any recounts came out, they would certify the Republican slate, and that was that. All it would take would be a couple of Repub legislatures to decide to certify the Repub electors, rather than the elected Dem slate (Missouri is one possibility that comes to mind) and thus keep Bush in power.

There are many, many ways this election can be stolen. I'm sure that Rove and his minions have every possible contingency covered.

The last thing I expect is a straightforward popular vote and electoral college victory for Kerry, with Bush conceding and going quietly.

If all else fails, some kind of serious terrorist attack could occur, and then 90% of the population (or so we will be led to believe) will spontaneously demand Bush remain in office.

Republicans control both houses of the state legislatures in these key states:

Ohio
Pennsylvania
Florida
Michigan
Wisconsin
Iowa
Missouri

If it comes to a protracted post-election day contest, we can kiss democracy in the U.S. goodbye. :(

-Laelth

I've been wanting to know, and haven't made the effort to do the research necessary myself.

The other thing people need to understand that it will be the current Congress that would most likely determine the next president if it comes to that, NOT the next one. The Electoral College meets on December 18th, and if there are competing slates of electors, the Congress that would be called to decide would be the one still if effect until the new one meets on January 20th.

Id be willing to bet big money that 2004 will be way worse than 2000.

Its already starting in Fla and Ohio. Its gonna get real messy. The GOP is tryin to block peoples right to vote and that aint happenin.

to do at least a little bit of GOTV calling on Election Day (or passing out literature or being a pollwatcher and collecting names of Dems. to call later in the day to remind them to vote, or offering transportation to the polls!)

I can guarantee you, even if you have just a couple of hours to give at the end of your busy work day, your local Dem/Kerry groups would be HAPPY to put you to work. When Kerry gives his acceptance speech in the wee hours of Wednesday morning, we'll all have a stake in his victory!

Even if you have a few minutes to call an old Democratic friend whom you know hasn't voted in a while ...

whether or not you're paranoid. It's whether or not you're paranoid enough.

Look at FL and other swing states that are dead even. If Kerry turns out to win by a landslide in any of those, and that state happened to use electronic voting machines- Rove cries foul and demands new elections, since there is no paper trail.

Good God, you guys have me paranoid now.