For Jews leaning to Bush- from Alan Dershowitz

Subject: A Message from Professor Alan Dershowitz

A Message to the American Jewish Community from Professor Alan Dershowitz:

There are American Jews who have said recently that although they support John Kerry's positions on every major domestic issue - - from the Supreme Court to women's rights to gay rights - - they plan to vote for President Bush because they believe Bush would be better for Israel.

Respectfully, I believe they are wrong for two reasons.

First, I know personally how strongly John Kerry feels about a safe and secure Israel. I remember vividly when John went to Israel with our dear mutual friend, the late Lenny Zakim, the New England director of the ADL. On his return, that's all John could talk about - - his admiration for Israel's combination of strength and determination to make peace. He has a perfect pro-Israel voting record in the Senate and I have no doubt that, as president, John Kerry's unwavering commitment to Israel will continue.

President Bush, though well intentioned on Israel, has hurt the Jewish nation's position in the world. The actions of the United States in Iraq, especially since President Bush prematurely declared mission
accomplished, have been disastrous for Israel. The failures in Iraq have weakened the influence of the United States in the Middle East and have made it much more difficult for us to thwart Iran's determination to develop nuclear weapons aimed at Israeli population centers. The Iranian mullahs know that Americans could not stomach another military action in Iran while the occupation of Iraq continues. This reality, confirmed by President Bush during the first debate, has emboldened them to speed up their nuclear
program - - a program that poses the greatest existential threat to Israel, the Jewish people and ultimately America, since an Iranian nuclear program could result in terrorists with dirty bombs. The current Bush policy with regard to Iraq has weakened America's war against terror by diverting military and other resources to a quagmire that is only getting worse.

The second reason is that pro-Israel votes should not turn an American presidential election into a referendum on Israel. Our goal must be to keep support for Israel a bipartisan issue - - and in this we have succeeded. Pro-Israel voters are free in this election to vote based on other important issues, such as women's rights, separation of church and state and the Supreme Court.

These issues actually coalesce in practice. If President Bush is reelected, he will have as many as four Supreme Court vacancies in his first year: and he has told us exactly who he intends to fill them with: clones of his two favorite justices - - Scalia and Thomas. A Bush Supreme Court will put at risk a woman's right to choose abortion. Equally important it will lower the wall of separation between church and state and increase the power of the religious right. Although the religious right has been very supportive of Israel - - especially in comparison with the Presbyterian and Episcopal branches of Protestantism - - their agenda for the American future poses considerable danger to the Jewish future in America.

They envision a Christian state with Christian schools and a Christian Supreme court.

Listen to the Texas Republican Party platform which affirms that the United States is a Christian nation and refers to the myth of the separation of church and state.

Listen to Lou Sheldon, the founder of the Traditional Values Coalition:

We were here first. We are the keepers of what is right and what is wrong.

And listen to Ralph Reed, the director of the Christian Coalition:

What Christians have to do is to take back the country. I honestly believe that in my lifetime we will see a country once again governed by Christians and Christian values.


And to Jerry Falwell:

I hope to see the day when as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. We must never allow our children to forget that this is a Christian nation. We must take back what is rightfully ours.

And to Pat Robertson:

The Constitution of the United States is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheist people, they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society. And that's what's been happening. If Christian people work together, they can succeed in winning back control of the institutions that have been taken from them over the past 70 years.

The Bush Administration supports the lowering of the wall of separation. Its prayer breakfasts, its faith-based programs, its Ashcroft Justice Department, and its evangelical rhetoric are all music to the ears of
The proselytizing Religious Right. Remember President Bush's inauguration, which was dedicated to our savior Jesus Christ and seemed more like a Christian prayer service than a national civic event?

A Kerry-Edwards Administration would keep the wall high. Senator Edwards has warned that faith should not be used to divide us. Jews especially have an important stake in the separation of church and state. We are first class citizens of this great nation precisely because no religious tests may be required for holding office and because the state may not favor one religion over another or religion over non-religion. We must preserve that neutrality for the good of America, the good of Jews and the good of the world.

are the same as the Logcabin Repukes. Fucked up.

I don't think he ever endorsed Bush, but he did endorse Bush's methods last year.

It sounds like he got over his fear of Arabs long enough to finally get a good look at the wingers around Bush. Guess they seemed scarier to him!

He put forth the same argument that responsible pro-druggies use -- they're going to do it anyway so why not set up some laws and guidelines to govern it.

The arguments put forth by individuals who wish to use drugs in private (and, presumably, harm no one else) are profoundly different from sanctioning the torture of others. Dershowitz's defense of torture in any circumstances is simply unconscionable; he does a serious discredit to himself.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

Estimated American Jewish percentage: 2.2%

Sure, the 3.9% in Florida would be nice, but I think Jeb's going to rig that anyway. I don't see why we pay so much attention to the Jewish vote in this country when they don't add up to a very relevant portion of our population. Asians, African-Americans, and Hispanics are far more relevant, and yet I've seen more press on Jews than any of those groups. It makes no sense to me.

But nobody ever gives us a shout out. :(

:hi: :hi: :hi:

I'm Jewish (by heritage) AND an Atheist (because I don't believe in "God")

...But then I lean towards Taoism/Buddhism when I'm feeling philosophical.

So--- who's actively courting the Zen Secular Humanist Jew Vote, that's what I wanna know? (Shit.. apparently we're already in the bag. Plus I live in a blue state- no wonder I can't get a yard sign)

I'm leaning Buddhist, myself. And my Dad's a converted Jew. So we're in a very select minority group, apparently.

:evilgrin:

In a few states, Jews are an important voting bloc. We are also a longtime and important part of the Democratic base. In addition, a country that is free for its Jewish citizens is free for all its citizens (and vice-versa).

Jews also contribute a great deal more money to Democratic candidates and liberal cuases than our numbers would suggest.

In any case, if the topic bores you - don't read the thread.

"In addition, a country that is free for its Jewish citizens is free for all its citizens (and vice-versa). "

Other voting groups are larger yet do not yield nearly as much press. So why do we focus on Jews more?

Why does it bother you if Jews focus on Jews? Alan Dershowitz wasn't writing for you, he was writing for Jews.

I just wonder aloud why it's so damn important to track.

And they vote as a bloc. This is a paper-thin election. I don't think it's a good idea to piss off five million people who vote at over 70 percent and have always supported Dems by about 10:1.

the U.S. government may be under control by the very important lobbying group: AIPAC.

So, it's a "Jewish plot?"

I would hope that AIPAC would get their act together and not support PNAC, but that may be asking for too much.

They sure do applaud and praise Bush quite a bit:

http://www.aipac.org/presspage.html

I hate it when any ethnic group is defined as a "bloc" the way you have. Yes, Jews are highly democratic, similarly to African-Americans, etc. Why does there have to be this idea that Jews aren't individuals who can individually make up their minds?

going to use? John Smith is trending Republican?

The only way to studay voting patterns in a way that makes sense is to study similarly aligned people? Evangelical Christians, Blacks, Jews, Catholics, Hispanics, etc. This allows a candidate to formulate a strategy.

It's the same with business. I mean, if you were charged with selling Ashlee Simpson records, would you really spend a lot of time buying advertisements on Country Music Television or the Golf Channel?

Maybe you would. Since all consumers should be seen as individuals.

and therefore it serves an important purpose.

Women, atheists, singles, and other groups also get less attention than they deserve relative to their numbers, but the solution is not to diss anyone, but rather to make sure members of all groups are heard. We need everyone to support our ticket.

But why such a huge media focus on them? That's the question. Why should I care more about how Jews are going to vote than how women or Asians are going to vote?

I'm not Jewish, but I'm pretty sure that Jews on average have more money than your average American. So, you're not only courting Jewish votes, you're courting their money.

Why do you think Republicans court Cubans so heavily? They're wealthier than your typical Hispanic voter.

I suspect that as the Asian population grows & gets wealthier, they will get courted seriously in the future as well.

I come from a Jewish family and we do not have more than average Americans. Every Jew, with the exception of two, do not have more money than average Americans. This buys into the "rich Jew" mythos! In my opinion, that was not a wise statement!

That the average per capita income for Jews is above the median for the entire country...


That Jews as a group are represented in academia, medicine, and law in higher numbers than their percentage of the population....


That Jews as a group have a higher I Q than members of other groups...


These are not racist statements...

Where one crosses the line from sociologist to racist is when they assign group characteristics to individual members of that group...

Not all Jews are smart


Not all Jews are rich...

Not all Jews are doctors and lawyers and professors...

and it seems the not so well off financially christians are the ones holding up the republican party because of opposition to things like gay rights, abortion rights etc.

also as the earlier poster pointed out about cubans. they court cubans not because of money but because cubans are more likely to vote republican because of their anti communist feelings as a result of castro. but many of these cubans are pretty liberal on issues like gay rights.

the same thing with asians. vietnamese and chinese immigrants tend to have less money than south asians and japanese yet they are more likely to vote republican because of the anti communist stand of the republican party.

I agree that Jews, as a group, may be all of the things you listed. However, when sociological facts like that are used, they often become racist "reasons" to hate. It is the same thing that happens when we studies released that state Blacks make up a disproportionate number of those in jails. While true, with out disclaimers as why this "fact" is or may be true, it often feeds into discrimination. It may be "unfair," but it does often happen. Just my thoughts.

I never said all Jews have money, I said that on average, Jews tend to have more money. Heck, my ex-wife is from a Jewish family and her direct family was, by no means, rich. Her wealthiest relatives were actually from the Catholic side of the family.

http://www.success-and-culture.net/articles/incomes.shtml#tables

Please correct me if I am wrong, but when reading this chart, it looks to me like the Jewish religion has income that is 29% higher than average and 20% higher than the median.

But I question that poll and since I don't know the methodology, I can't really draw too many conclusions. According to the poll, there were 6,358 respondents, 98 of whom said they were Jews. That means Jews only made up 1.5% of respondents. If Jews make up 2.2% of the population, then a few were left out here. Perhaps Jews do make more money on average, but to state that the reason Democrats "court" the Jews is because of money, is short-sighted. Another poster (below) has shown many reasons why the Jews are important to the Democrat Party and money is not the only reason.

I wrote my senior paper in college 20 years ago on Jewish voting patterns in presidential elections. I've kept up with the topic over the years and little has changed. Jewish support for Democratic candidates is as loyal as just about any other group - regularly exceeding 80%. This is particularly striking because it completely contradicts the model showing that the higher a group ranks in terms of socioeconomic status, the more Republican they vote.

There's an expression "Jews live like Episcopalians and vote like Puerto Ricans." And it is true. Jews have a higher socioeconomic status than any other group. That is largely because we tend to be more educated than other groups.

The reason Jewish votes matter is because they tend to be concentrated in metro areas in states with very large numbers of electoral college votes. It's less of an issue this year since California, New York and Illinois are safe blue states, but the importance is certainly magnified in Florida. If Jewish votes were evenly dispersed across the country, the importance of the vote would be lessened.

Second, Jews historically vote more than other groups. So while we may be just five million people, in an election where there is 50% turnout overall, there may be 90% turnout in the Jewish community, thus making the vote seem twice as large.

Third, because Jews largely vote as a bloc and do not split votes in the proportion of the general election, their importance to the Democratic Party is magnified.

Fourth, Jews tend to be more politically active. Jews disproportionately volunteer for Democrats across the country.

Fifth, wealthy Jews provide a financial backbone to the Democratic Party in this country. People like George Soros vote give against their financial interests because Jews believe social justice issues transcend our personal economic interests. And contrary to what Republicans believe, we are not single issue voters. Israel is important, but one on a laundry list of issues.

Bravo (or brava, as the case may be) for a reasoned explanation of why Jews are of importance in any election. Not MORE important than anyone else, of course -- but they're not an irrelevent statistic* by any stretch of the imagination.

We shall see if Mr. "Jews Don't Count" takes note.

* Frankly I find thinking of voters as "statistics" repugnant. Every voter counts in an election. Every person counts. To think otherwise is an obscenity unworthy of a progressive.

Thank you, I appreciate this input. This means a lot more to me than mere posturing and off-base attacks.

This answers my question. That's all I needed to know.

that the median income for a Jewish family was 72% above the median for all American families. This is a greater deviation than any other religious/ethnic group in the country.

Your post reads like a fucking Aryan message board. Why can't anyone talk about Jewish people without fucking turning it into a Jews and their money post.

Really? Wow, I must live in an alternate universe where 2.2% was more relevant than the 50.9% of women, 12.5% latino population, 12.3% african american population, and the 3.6% asian population. (sources: www.census.gov)

Which it does not. I just want to know why there's such a gigantic focus on a group that is statistically nearly irrelevant. That's all. Simple question.

nt

especially in close races.

And I mentioned that it would make an impact in Florida, where they are 3.3%. It doesn't seem like they'd make much of a swing anywhere else.

Pooh-poohing demographic groups because they are "insignificant" is Karl Rovian thinking.

instead of larger constituencies. I'm not poo-pooing anything.

This is an opinion article by a Jew directed towards Jews.

Mainstream media stories about Jews in this election have been rare.

Because I've seen a new article posted about it every day.

Provide links and prove me wrong.

Next to African Americans Jews are the most stalwart supporters of the Democratic party....

If they only voted their pocketbooks like many other groups they would have become Pukes a long time ago....

...but vote like Puerto Ricans.

As a Jew, I am inspired and refreshed by the fact that Jews, for the most part, don't vote our pocketbooks.

Or, maybe, we do - only not in a very narrow, short-term, selfish perspective. A more just society is a more long-term prosperous society. A more just society is a more stable society, and a stable society is obviously better for Jews (and everyone else) than a society in disarray.

and I agree with you...our vote means very little.....a very small percentage...only in NY and Florida does it have any value at all...

I am a christian and love all faiths. I value you on election day and any other day and that is why we have to take America back from the Falwells and Robertsons. Faith is personal and heritage is personal and God is personal and does not belong to any one party. Bush hijacked my faith just like the extreme islamists hijacked the muslim religion.

1) Florida.

2) Every vote counts, remember?

3) Maybe you should ask yourself why this bothers you so. As far as I'm concerned, this election is tight as hell-- so the Disabled Gay Eskimo Vote is "relevant". And I come from a Jewish family and a Jewish community-- I can tell you that some folks-- waaay too many-- have bought into this "Bush supports Israel" BS just like some folks have bought into all his other lies. It is another angle from which to point out that the noise this administration makes bears absolutely no resemblance to the reality of it's policies. And it's ridiculous, especially when you delve into the wackjob theology and worldview unerlying the "support" that these religious right nutters supposedly give Israel.

When we do, your argument will mean something. Until then, I want to know why we're overlooking larger constituencies.

And yeah, we should get news reports about the disabled gay eskimo vote.

Beyond that, it still really sounds to me like you've got some kind of issue here. I can't figure out why.

Let's put it this way- the voters that are perceived to be in PLAY are getting more press than anyone else. I live in California. Am I bitching because no one is fighting for my vote? No. Because everyone knows CA Is going Blue. It's the battleground states, and the battleground voters, that are going to decide this thing.

Now why it bothers you so much that "the jews" are getting "all this press", I really have no idea. If you want to talk 'bout something else, I'd respectfully suggest you start a new thread and do so.

You can imply anti-Semitism if you wish. And I agree with you that every vote matters and should be scrutinized. Once again, I simply wonder why more attention is being paid to this very small minority group as opposed to larger ones. Simple question. Someone argued they think that's not the case, which is fine. I don't see it that way, but I haven't done an in-depth analysis, so I could be wrong on that point. But I do notice I see someone worrying and posting an article about the jewish vote every day and I don't see the same fretting over african americans, asians, or hispanics. Women, yes, but not nearly enough considering they're half the population.

For example, I see an awful lot of agitation around the idea that the Democratic Party's support of Gay Rights is "alienating" large numbers of African American and Hispanic voters. I think, rather I hope, that such articles are partisan noise--- and don't give those voters nearly enough credit.

I pay attention because this is an issue I know quite a bit about, and I do know some people who have been swayed by arguments similar to the ones Dershowitz debunks here. And the religious right Tim LaHaye crowd pisses me off to no end.... And I never like to see people- anyone- clearly voting against their own best interests-- something that the Bush administration tends to make an awful lot of "groups" do.

As for your "simple question".. Umm... what kind of "simple answer" were you looking for? Because the Jews control the media? Because no one cares about African Americans or Hispanics like they care about Jews?

I'm not calling you an anti-semite, but -let's be honest- the tone of your original post came off as pretty fuckin' rude. If someone had said "Who gives a fuck about the gays?" or "Who give a fuck who the Blacks vote for?" They would catch flak at least as bad, if not worse, than what you've received. And rightly so. That's all.

I think you're seeing something that isn't there, namely an undue amount of focus on a certain demographic. I think what focus there is is warranted because that demographic can be key in certain swing states. (Remember the little old holocaust survivors who were heartbroken that they accidentally voted for Anti-Semite Pat Buchanan?)

This article was written by a Jew directed to other Jews. Why are your knickers in such a knot?

Without Jewish votes, contributions, and volunteers, the Democrats would be in huge trouble.

I guess some Dems would like to defund the party entirely.

I'm bashing the media, if anyone.

Sorry, I call bullshit on your claim to have seen more articles on Jewish voters than African-American voters. With all the (justifiable) focus on destroyed ballots and caging and intimidating? Gimme a freakin' break.

Jewish votes are irrelevant? Fuck that. Okay, Jews are a small percentage of U.S. citizens, smaller numbers by far than Blacks or Hispanics or Asians. And okay, let's ignore the history of Jews working in the progressive and civil rights movements in proportions higher to their percentage in the population.

Even granting you that -- one would have hoped that chimpy "winning" in 2000 thanks to a difference of 500 votes would've taught even the most obtuse Democrat that EVERY voter is "relevant."

What the hell kind of progressive has this type of attitude? Your post (and the genius who says "follow the money" below) brings to mind those nutcases who whine about how Jews run the media and banks, not to mention the trilateral commission and the Bilderburgs!

Seriously, I'd expect this kind of narrowminded crap from the freepers on freeperville. It's an embarassment to DU, and you should be fucking embarrassed to have posted it.

Respectfully speaking, of course.

I didn't say anything about running the banks or the media. Simple question, but I don't get an answer. All I get is posturing. I have a lot more respect for the people that just seem to think that every last vote should be sweated over - and I agree with them except I don't see it happening. G'bye now.

It matters how many posts I have? Honey, I'll proudly take my 25 measly posts over your 1000+ posts any day -- if all of yours are of the same calibre as the ones on this thread.

You have gotten an answer -- you just don't like the ones I gave you.

1) You have NOT seen more articles about Jewish voters than African-American voters, unless of course your reading material consists of stuff like "Jewsmopolitan Magazine" and the "Red Sea Pedestrian Voter Gazette." Kindly go count the number of threads in GD2004 related to the GOP shitheels who are disenfranchising Blacks. Now go count the threads relating to Jewish voters.

2) People care because EVERY vote is important, as most of us learned four years ago (if we hadn't already learned it as children, or by being compassionate progressives, that is).

Look buddy, why not just sit back and ponder why so many people are pissed off at the dismissive attitude you've displayed here. It's really an unattractive and unproductive way of thinking.

I never said it was a productive way of thinking. Curiosity isn't always productive. Nor is being a devil's advocate. I will grant your two points though. Yes, every vote matters. I'd never say otherwise. And since I have not counted each and every thread, I could be wrong about the number of threads regarding other minorities.

My point still remains. I still do not understand what seems to be the disproportionate number of articles and threads devoted to the 2.2% of the American population. In my own viewing, I see more threads devoted to the Jewish minority than to Asians, Hispanics, and women. You are correct - there are a lot of stories regarding african-americans, largely because of what happened in 2000. I will yield that part of my point. And I'm not reading any Jewish only magazines, although I do read Haaretz and JPost on a regular basis (in addition to Palestine Media Center, The Palestine Chronicle, The Guardian, New York Times, Japan Times, Asahi Shimbun, CNN.com and Washington Post).

:thumbsup:

Love your screenname. You're not a singer by any chance, are you?

...professionally, no, but I do jam with friends and sing as a hobby!

The people who follow my spiritual path are very few in number as well (far fewer than the number of Jews), but I wouldn't appreciate it if somebody said "who cares what Pagans think!"

Come to think of it, that's one of the reasons I didn't like shrub way back in 1999. He'd been saying mean things about my religion.

why are jews getting more attention than larger minority groups?

Let's see, Jews vote at a higher rate and donate more money at a higher rate than any other ethnic or religious group. Also, they may only be 2 percent of the population, but that vote is concentrated in a few very important places. So unless you want to keep electing Republican mayors and governors in New York, New Jersey and Florida, we'd better stop pissing off the Jewish bloc.

It's all part of the still-permitted idea that Jews run everything. If you ask me, the whole "the Jews are going to vote for Bush" is both untrue (I'd put money on it) and vaguely anti-semitic--as if Jews are unable to make up their minds like any other person.

Unless you are a "Born Again Christian", an "Islamic Extremist", or an OIL COMPANY, you have nothing to gain from a Second Bush Term!!!

His ultimate religious goal is for Christ to return and smite the Jewish people by advancing the timeline for the events detailed in the Book of Revelations. I can't think of anyone LESS electable.

Well, maybe Jerry Fallwell.

Iran, al-Qaeda, and Putin all recommend Bush for reelection.

where was this article published?

REMOVE. HEAD. FROM. ASS.

I've already had to bring TWO people back from crossing over to the dark side this election season. Both of them said the same damn thing.

"I don't agree with Bush on just about everything... but he's such a strong supporter of Israel, how can I not vote for him?"

AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-MR

Lou Sheldon, the founder of the Traditional Values Coalition:
We were here first. We are the keepers of what is right and what is wrong.

Uh, I believe that the native, indigenous people were here for centuries, millenia, before a white face landed over here, s0n.


And listen to Ralph Reed, the director of the Christian Coalition:
What Christians have to do is to take back the country. I honestly believe that in my lifetime we will see a country once again governed by Christians and Christian values.

Take the country back to what? From what? I don't see where this country is not governed by a bunch of Christians already.


And to Jerry Falwell:
I hope to see the day when as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them.

And the country will be overrun by a bunch of ignorant, badly educated people who will not be able to compete in a global market because they will not have learned basic scientific facts which every child in every other country on the face of the earth will know--according to his plan, the best American children can hope for is working the day shift as a Walfart greeter.

And to Pat Robertson:
The Constitution of the United States is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheist people, they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society.

No, it's that they will not allow unbalanced religious zealots to bring back heresy, which would do more to destroy the foundation of this society than anything an atheist could do. No atheist demands that you give up your belief--just that you not cram your belief down their throats by using governmental entities to do your dirtywork for you.

I'd like to ask all of these knuckleheads: Which sect of Christianity is going to be the one official religion if you get your way? Catholicism? Or will it be Protestant? and if so, which flavor? Baptist? Southern Baptist? Lutheran? Presbyteryan? Seventh Day Adventists? Mormon? Apostolic Pentacostal? Church of God in Christ? Episcopal? Methodist? Are they prepared to enact an Act of Uniformity? What are the punishments for those who choose not to convert? Will you burn them at the stake? Attaint them after declaring them heretical traitors? Turn their families out in the street to shift for themselves? Just what unchristian act are they prepared to engage in in order to see their pride-filled plans enacted? How will they explain the deprivation of each person's right to their own conscience to their God? Aren't they really putting their will before God's? I was under the impression that we all had the right to choose to believe or not... was I lied to as a child when this was taught in my catholic religion classes and reconfirmed when I converted to protestantism?

They need to look to those questions and answer them first before blustering the way in which they do.

He's now lost all shine in my eyes just as Nader has.

Hopefully, Dershowitz may find it within himself, especially after Abu Graib, to reconsider how absolutely sick his advocacy of judicious torture was.

because he's talking sense here. And he is dead-on target about the religious right.

Dershowitz is no dummy, but he has used false logic to contstruct his torture argument, and I would love to see a mind of equal stature call him on it.

Dershowitz has a pro-Kerry opinion. So does Lyndon LaRouche. Dershowitz can go to hell and then some.

You are going to disagree with many people on many points. But at a time like this we must embrace our supporters whence they come. And iron out the other stuff later.

Dershowitz is totally wrong on the torture issue, but that doesn't mean you should throw out the baby with the bath water. If he can persuade people to vote for Kerry, that's fine with me.

He argued that under certain circumstances - like let's say we have one guy who KNOWS where some nukes are hidden - and they are about to go off - well in that circumstance I'd say, if all else fails, torture is justified.

It seems to me that some DUers just have unreasoned knee-jerk reactions to many things.

WTG Dershowitz...

And those who diss you for your torture article miss the point - if enough lives were hanging in the balance - torture would be justified - it's common fuckin' sense.

This should be sent to everyone you know!

He said as much back in 1994 when he was running for governor of Texas.

Now, if you want to vote for a man whose evangelical faith dictates that you are condemned to Hell because of your faith - the faith of your fathers and mothers, and a faith as true as or perhaps truer than the President's - then that's your choice.

But I'd think twice about it.

At some point these loons will start blaming "the Jews" just as they blame "the liberals" etc for all they disagree with. No Jew in his or her right mind would support these frightening people.

love the Jews. This administration has been the most pro-israel administration in our history. Why? not because they love Israel and the Jews, but because they need to them for when Jesus comes back. Our foreign policy is based on the Left Behind Books.

love self..Just a bunch of Pharasees !

It seems like there is a big move to rally the Jewish vote this week? We've never had to do this before. This worries me.

My son's Hebrew teacher is from Israel, is a U.S. citizen and said she was leaning toward Bush because of his stance on Israel. PISSED me off ROYALLY!! I see Bush as a TERRORIST in THIS country...here and NOW and she's worrying about ISRAEL???!!! I'm still pissed about it. Anyway, she was still undecided, leaning toward the chimp and TONIGHT is the last Hebrew class before the election! I printed this out and told my husband to give it to her. IT MAY OPEN HER DAMN EYES! I hope so! We'll see. Thanks for posting this. :hi:

Amazing!

I am not a Jew. How do I tell whether or not he is addressing me or specifically addressing Jews? Do I not read it or slough it off? I am not targeted so therefore the information is null?

I certainly did NOT like his advocating torture. I pretty much ignore him now a days as I ignore any religious bent by anyone trying to sell religion or a religious connection to this election.

It does NOT, imo, belong here and should NOT have a place in an election. There is as much justification for this as there is for Falwell or Robertson or the many on that religious right whose opinions are "religiously" skewed. To me,it is the same as Robertson or Falwell or any of the religious right nutcases trying to skew an election through religion. Face it--Israel and it's survival, no matter the policies of Sharon, is behind the thinking of it all. Any candidate that does not support Israel or who does not have the backing of the AIPAC will lose one way or the other and that has been proven. Says a lot. But as has been the case, it goes on and on and on. Imo, this is in the same catagory as the Catholics trying to skew an election from the pulpit, or the fundamentalists trying the same, or any religion that thinks it needs to vote as a "bloc" in order to get what they want.

Honestly, have any of you people actually watched a campaign before?

That would be a continuing mistake.

That's what we have to argue.

What Bush has done (and what the Israel-bashers here help him prove) is create a belief that the Dems are Anti-Israel. If anything, we are and have always been more Pro-Israeli than the Republicans. The difference is we are Pro-Israeli while offering a solution to the ongoing conflict, while Republicans seem to believe that a fight to the death is a solution.

October
Read entire newsletter on-line with working hotlinks at
http://ga3.org/ct/z71obpF1wQK_/

Commentary: Mitchell Plitnick on The difference between Bush and
Kerry
What's New at JVP: Disrupting Caterpillar, Presbyterians back
new shareholder resolution
Quote of the Month: Sharon aid says Gaza withdrawal meant to
stall peace process
Jewish Peace News: Gaza withdrawal, US vetoes UN resolution, new
Israeli peace group
Talk Back: Letters about our support for the Presbyterian Church


About Jewish Voice for Peace
Jewish Voice for Peace is a diverse and democratic community of
activists inspired by Jewish tradition to work together for
peace, social justice, and human rights. We support the
aspirations of Israelis and Palestinians for security and
self-determination. Learn more about us at
http://ga3.org/ct/_p1obpF1wQKX/. Send questions, comments or
concerns to the JVP staff at info@jewishvoiceforpeace.org.

Jewish Voice for Peace
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Oakland, CA 94612 USA
510-465-1777
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