Does Kerry have the support of active military?

I keep hearing radically different reports on this topic.

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the support is split much closer than the Republicans would like.

Can support Shrub with morans like Rummy running the Pentagon and screwing things up royally...

Some reporter asked Clinton shortly after impeachment if he felt he still had the moral authority and respect of the military.

Clinton's answer was classic and exactly the truth of how Kerry should govern. paraphasing a bit: Essentially, Clinton said, that he is the commander in chief and that it was irrelevath what the troops thought. They follow orders in the chain of command and they will follow orders. The constitution gave Clinton is mandate, he didn't need moral authority.

No worry about a new pesident and the military.

he was one of them once. he knows what they are going thru and he`ll do everything to get them home.

unknown about Marines or the Army, or National Guard.

who is active army, the soldiers are no fan of Rumsfeld, however are mostly supportive of Bush.

The nephew got back from Iraq a few months ago and they're talking about sending his unit back.

The cousin left a month ago.

They both have said there's a split in the military. Some are angry at * and want him gone. The attitude is they'll come home faster.

Others have said that they support * and Iraq was the right thing to do.

Based on this, I don't think shrub has as much military support as many would like to think.

I've heard opinions all over the place about this too.

There are definitely many in the military who are fed up with Bush and will vote for Kerry. But I think that they are a small percentage of the entire military vote.

The military attracts and cultivates personality traits that dovetail with conservative Republican views. They have a strict top-down hierarchy, submission to authority is important, dependence is detested, self-sufficiency is valued, it is the 'strict father' model.

Besides the attraction and cultivation of Republican traits, they have this horrific HATRED of Democrats, starting with Carter, as soft weaklings who degrade the military. There was also much negative sentiment toward Clinton, but I really think ultra-negativity of Carter, contrasted immediately by ultra-exalted hero worship of Reagan, made the Republican Party the party of the military, and it will be that way for a while.

Kerry has a shot at changing that, but he has a lot going against him (the right wing slime machine has been telling our troops that he is going to surrender to France at his inauguration, and that he will put UN troops over them, and make Hilary Clinton the Sec. of Defense, etc.)

I was in the Army for four years under Reagan and daddy bush.

The military attracts those who need a job and an education. That's a fact you'll find very common.

No one in the army I knew had a hatred of the democrats. Well, I was one in the Army even though we liked Reagan.

The military does shape those values such as following orders, being self-sufficient and putting country first. It has to be that way in order to keep it's unity and fighting force for when it's called up to fight.

I'll admit when Clinton first ran I was hesitant for moral reasons, but I didn't think shrub senior deserved a second term because of Somalia.

In the military there are a lot more single parents and minorities than ever before. When I left, the trend was growing by leaps and bounds.

What this boils down to, is the military isn't automatic repubs and conservs.

I'm also offended at your descriptions of those serving. The troops are not mindless robots designed to serve the republican war machine. We were encouraged to use our heads and be logical in our decision-making.

I'm pleased that you do not agree with the idea that those in the military largely support Bush.

I'm only going with second-hand information. I've asked for opinions from military and ex-military on several boards, and while I WANTED to hear that there was more support for Kerry, even avid Kerry supporters said they thought that overall they were the exception and the majority supported Bush.

As to the values, yes they are essential in a military organization. And those values (following orders, being self-sufficient and putting country first) are NOT associated in my mind with 'mindless robots designed to serve the republican war machine'. They are, as you said, essential in combat and I believe the US military is trained for quick thinking, decision making, and taking charge when necessary. I did not mean for that to come off as an insult to people in the military.

It's just that those values and that perspective - when applied to politics - are associated with being Republican. It's necessary and completely appropriate for the military to have those values, they are appropriate for combat. Really, it's the Republicans who have it wrong. They are taking values appropriate to combat and applying them to civilian domestic policies. The military has it right - the Republicans are the ones who have it wrong.

They were pro-military and well liked by the establishment, even after Truman forced integration down their throats in the 1950's he still held the respect of the American military. Same goes for JFK. And LBJ as well, at least until Vietnam started going really poorly.

The problem the US Military has culturally insofar as being "pro" republican is that after the disgust with LBJ and the Vietnam war the democratic party started to become leery of the military establishment. This wasn't without good reason (Remember Eisenhower's farewell address) but while the Democratic party reinvented itself with Humphrey and McGovern, the Goldwater/Nixon types held onto their view of the military and its place in society and its use as an instrument of power.

When we finally got the White House back with Carter, the late 60's/early 70's that point of view came with him. His active decisions to 'step down' the military weren't met with enthusiasm from the military establishment, and by the time of the hostage crisis they were in outright contempt of him. The Post Vietnam military was full of draftees, and later the some of the worst America had to offer, insofar as a lack of education and in a lot of cases criminal elements who got the infamous "join up or goto jail" sentence by a judge. Equipment was behind what the Soviets had, (our M60 tanks were a joke compared to the soviet t-72's), and Carter was cutting funding for new weapons systems. B-2 and all the rest.

Regan changed all that in a MAJOR way, and Bush Sr. continued the trend. The upper echelon of the military remember being junior officers under Carter and seeing the improvements made under Regan. Things got better for the military establishment, the all volunteer force was fielding good recruits, new equipment was ample, the size of the force increased which gave more opportunities for advancement and leadership. They went and beat up on some 5th rate nations to test new weapons and tactics. In short Regan made the military establishment feel like they mattered again.

Bush senior continued the trend. From the depths of the Carter years (and whatever your politics, the US military in the mid to late 1970's was woefully unprepared to accomplish its missions) through Regan, the military establishment LIKED being well funded and 'taken care of'. After Desert Storm, Bush Sr. set in a 'step down' during his administration much like Carter did. We realized that the military that swelled under Regan was no longer necessary.

Then Clinton got elected. One of his 1st things he did was the whole gays in the military thing. That didn't go over so well. (we can debate about it for hours pro or con, but the fact is the establishment didn't like it and held a grudge). Then the 'Black Hawk Down' stuff in Somalia and Mogadishu. Clinton got blamed for the failings of Les Aspin. So he got off to a bad start with the military establishment as WELL as continuing Bush Sr. draw down plan almost unchanged. Many MANY people were for better or worse forced out of the service due to the reduction in the size of the force. They didn't like that. Bush Sr. force reduction became Clinton's force reduction. Clinton started to deploy the force at a higher tempo in peacekeeping missions, soldiers don't like being deployed indefinitely to Kosovo. Clinton got the blame for that. Of course Clinton didn't get any of the credit for having a incredibly lean and fit fighting force that was without a doubt in my mind the peak of American fighting efficiency and readiness, but those are the breaks. The same force that took over Iraq in less then a month.

The point is, the military isn't as much pro Republican, as it is pro people who they perceive as taking care of them. Carter didn't do a good job of providing for a damaged force. Regan did. Clinton tried to change them when they didn't think it was necessary, THEN Les Aspin got those Rangers killed because he refused to send them the armored vehicles they needed. The military establishment never forgave him for that, and then they started blaming him for the Bush Sr downsizing program.

John Kerry can destroy these decades of conventional wisdom by taking care of our military. He can do it by making sure they have the equipment and training they need for their job, he can do it by getting them out of the killing fields of Iraq, he can do it by not trying to social engineer their recruitment policies, he can do it by being their ally as commander-in-chief. This whole Democrats are weak on defense charge can be put to bed FOREVER with a strong pro military/pro defense Kerry administration. It is NOT a matter of values, its a matter of doing whats best and whats right for the people who give of themselves to preserve protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

of the military in your original post.

I've always been bothered by the fact that the natural assumption was the military being automatically for bush. I truly don't believe that's the case here. I do hope to find out later on what the percentage is that votes for Kerry vs. shrub.

and taking command to the squad level that makes the American Mlitary far better than most other modern miltary establishments....

and because he sought resolution without blood being spilled, he was portrayed as weak...

Reagan "play-acted" in films about war, and went around attacking "little defenseless" nations,, Grenada comes to mind, and he's a "warrior"..

Bush1 was in the military, and probably did behave heroically, except for the time he got his crewmates killed when he bailed out and left them to die, but he was at first portrayed as a wimp, so of course he had to spill some blood (OPB, that is)in another impoverished country Panama and became a warrior..GW1 was the cherry on top..and of course Somalia was HIS blunder too

my 'feelings' on this. But, I think/believe while it's a majority, it's not an overwhelming majority. Here's why...

Something like 60% of our troops over in Iraq are National Guard. These are not the regular enlisted people. They have families, 'day jobs', etc. These are the troops that the Bush policies as a whole (VA benefits, the economy, healthcare, education, environment, etc.) have impacted in their every day lives. I suspect a majority of these are supporting Kerry. Whether it's a pro-Kerry or an ABB position is debatable, but either way it's a Kerry vote.

The remaining 40% are most likely split with a majority going toward Republicans...the party, not necessarily support of Bush. Even though the military is known to be 'Republican', the organization is in reality...LIBERALISAM. From fighting to make others free, from pulling/lifting up the weakest in the unit means making the unit stronger, from protecting the Constitution and Bill of Rights, even from the extreme meme of the right-wing about Government control (which is the officers and civilian leaders in charge and paid for by our taxes). That is all *gasp* Liberalism!

So, in quick terms, let's just say there are 100,000 troops we're taking about. 60% are NG. Of those, 60-70% are pro-Kerry. On the low end it would be 36,000. Of the remaiing 40%, with a little less than 50% (let's say 47% and be in line with those wonderful and useless polls of the nation), we have another 18,800. That would mean 54,800 of 100,000 would be voting Kerry.

Like I said, no facts, just feelings on this. But I sure don't believe this 70% for Bush figure that keeps getting bandied about from the conservative crowd...at least not with this election. I think they are getting this number from a specific segment then promoting it as the whole. (Misleading again)

And around here (Ft Hood Army base, Texas) Kerry has A LOT of AD military support...and even more so from the Reserves & NGs.

But they probably feel like Winston Smith with their commanders breathing down their necks.

I know many parents of teens who are voting for Kerry as many really do believe a draft is likely under Bush.

and got the numbers they air continuously on CNN (etc).. thousands of them refused to say anything.

They wound up only getting a handful to talk to. Maybe those who support * were the only ones who knew could answer the poll without fear of criticism.

It will take a president like Kerry, and an admin with people like General Clark, etc... to reel them all in. And he'll do it! :hug:

I'm a military brat and their overwhelming support for repukes dates back to at least Eisenhower. Never understood it. The worse they are led, the more they fall into lockstep.

The little bushturd seems to have pissed more of them off than usual.

The Annenberg Poll pretty much paints that picture, although you can't take responses at face value in the military. I think it will be between 25-30% for Kerry, which, for the military in wartime, is pretty big for the challenger. Remember also that National Guard and reservists are included here, not just career military.

http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org

One of the fun sideshows of that election was the heavy drive by the GOOP to get those in the military to vote (their proportion of voters is lower than the "national average"...feeding off Clintonhate) by absentee...most of those ended up going into disputed areas of Florida.

IIRC, thousands of absentees from the military flooded in and there were complaints by Repugnicans that their ballots weren't getting stamped and delivered on time.

Then who can forget Uncle Joe's capitulation when the GOOP screamed that a ton of improper military ballots were allowed to be counted during the Florida recount.

We're not hearing about that kind of activity this time 'round. That's gotta say something.

Thinking they had a permanent lock on the military vote, the Republican state legislature re-wrote its statutes so that all overseas ballots will be presumed to be valid, even if they aren't stamped.

Say that Florida gets REALLY close and at the end of the (first) count, Bush is ahead by a couple dozen votes. Then, a thousand unopened, unstamped overseas ballots come in late. Postulate also that in general, overseas ballots are known to be favoring Kerry by 49% to 48%. The weasels have a pretty good idea that if the votes are counted, they lose.

The Republicans may find themselves contesting unstamped overseas ballots against the very laws they wrote and against the judicial precedent they set. Note that this is a weasels-only option; any Democratic attempts to question the legality of the new statutes would be overridden by the Republican legislature or the conservative-packed courts.

Obviously just more rethug spinning BULLSHIT.

"(For) 9 out of 10 of the people I talk to, it wouldn't matter who ran against Bush - they'd vote for them," said a U.S. soldier in the southern city of Najaf, seeking out a reporter to make his views known. "People are so fed up with Iraq, and fed up with Bush."

"Nobody I know wants Bush," says an enlisted soldier in Najaf, adding, "This whole war was based on lies."

"We shouldn't be here," said one Marine infantryman bluntly. "There was no reason for invading this country in the first place. We just came here and (angered people) and killed a lot of innocent people," said the marine, who has seen regular combat in Ramadi. "I don't enjoy killing women and children, it's not my thing."

*******

1999 military survey (IE BEFORE bush LIED our troops to their deaths)

Among officers, who represent roughly 15 percent of today's 1.4 million active duty military personnel, there are about eight Republicans for every Democrat, according to a 1999 survey by Duke University political scientist Peter Feaver.

Enlisted personnel, however - a disproportionate number of whom are minorities, a population that tends to lean Democratic - are more evenly split. Professor Feaver estimates that about one third of enlisted troops are Republicans, one third Democrats, and the rest independents, with the latter group growing.

*******

2003 Military Times Survey

A Military Times survey last December of 933 subscribers, about 30 percent of whom had deployed for the Iraq war, found that 56 percent considered themselves Republican - about the same percentage who approved of Bush's handling of Iraq. Half of those responding were officers, who as a group tend to be more conservative than their enlisted counterparts.

http://www.gogreenbay.com/page.html?article=127680

My hubby's ENTIRE UNIT are Indies or Dems; NONE are rethugs and ALL hate bush (and even the rethugs on base hate Rumsfailed.)

Where the hell were you when I was a military wife?!! lol. I totally despised the wives club b/c of the Clinton bashing. The CO's wife was the worse. I just did my own thing - I was a rebel ;)

My brother is in the guard and he said the troops coming back from Iraq are not supporting *. I think it'll start changing and Kerry will get a lot more support.

Were you NUTS???!! rotfl!!! Boy that'll offend some military spouses on here I bet. :D

There are some SUPERB military wives out there...but my GAWD so many of them are airhead bimbos who married the military for the "easy ride". laff.

But yep, I'm a Dem military wife...and even worse, I'm an OFFICER'S wife and BOTH of us are Dems, always have been, always will be. :)

The army has always been 50-50 left to right for enlisteds and who gives a crap about officers; bunch of idiots as valuable as tits on a bull (as my officer likes to say :D ) Officers are only 12-15% of the army anyways.

This "the military supports *" and "the military = Republican" crap is just more rightwingnut spin. It's the enlisteds who matter, and they're not & never have been a rightwing majority. That they hate bush would maybe explain the RECORD NUMBERS of troops going AWOL right now. Or is it they love * and are just following their AWOL leader? :D


Oh and remember, ALL the top US military brass, from Stormin' Norman to Admiral Peake, are OPPOSED BIG TIME to bush & have been from the get-go...and they're ALL Republicans.

I joke, I joke! :)

Isn't that just THE STUPIDEST crap EVER!!!

Marry into the US military and get BIG BOOBS for free! JFC.

So I guess it's "To Keep the boy's morale UP"? :D

I guess. Incentive to stay alive on their back-to-back war tours for a few years? A counter-balance to that saltpeter? :D

Oh, I heard the "we need surgical experience during peacetime" bit, c'mon! Like no one in the military ever needs surgery outside a battlefield, lol. Maybe some of the brass wanted some...perks, heh...

Ok, ok, enough with the lame double entendre's! :D

Dems (Navy). But, on his shore tour, his CO did vote for Gore. Other than that it was pure hell. Funny thing was, during the Lewinsky scandal two Sr. officers had affairs and got busted (ok, wrist-slapped). Guess it's only serious if you're a Dem.

:toast: Here's to you guys!

No experience with the navy situ. The airforce appears to be rapidly turning anti-bush. Then again, they claim to be the smartest of the military bunch, so could be just the AF showing off. LOL!

We had an Lt toss his wife off their 3rd floor balcony. He sat inside watching MTV while she lay on the ground outside. Medics, MPs and ambulance arrived, he still sat inside.

The MPs took him in...that night he's back home with the wife. She lived, just a few broken bones. He got a reprimand.

As for affairs...OY! There's a reason the military has one of the highest divorce rates in America...screwing around is quite the pastime for many. And yep, usually it's just a wink and a wrist-slap.

It's like the 50's never ended, "walk it off"..

blech. :(

She is stationed in a military hospital, so they see the aftermath. Some of her associates would IM me from her roommates computer early in the morning. I've sent them DD coffee they were happy to get it. They voted absentee for JK with very few exceptions.

The signs were so great...
"I'm a navy wife and George Bush can kiss my ASS"
and two others less memorable- they are a minority but not so few as people think, and they are PISSED!

I forced my way out because Army life wasn't for me ... but I still know some active military and based on my experiences, my friends, and what I read:

Almost everyone was there for the benefits, to have a job (one guy join because he said that the park bench was getting too hard), or just trying figure out what to do with their lives

I would say the Dem/Rep is about 50% for the enlisted guys, but the Dem camp tend to have more non-voters ... these are guys that establishment politicians can't motiviate, but someone 'outside the box' could

Once you get to the NCOs, the more Repuke you get ... officers corp very Repuke

Still a lot of REMFs (rear-echelon motherfuckers) who support Chimpy because they know its unlikely their asses will be going to Iraq ... and there's a lot of suck-ups who feel that aping the Repuke views of the high-ups will help them up the food chain

We even have the troop trainers in Iraq who have NEVER in their entire history been sent to combat. "Eating our seed corn".

We have cooks driving humvees in Iraq. We have mechanics going on raids.

And they're dying/being shot to pieces every damn day.

Over 2/3rds of the US military are NON-COMBAT MOSs; so who's in Iraq? NON-COMBAT soldiers.

I think he might get a lot of reserves and national job votes though. I also think he might have a chance with some of the active duty family members too. I do think he will get a larger chunk than any other democrat in the past though. My husband can't find a single person at his command that supports Kerry. All of them walk around talking abotu how wonderful he is and listening to Rush Limbaugh and stuff.

Largest military base in the free world. And the number of anti-bush troops here is very high.

As the stats show, with enlisted active duty soldiers, the usual split is 1/3 Republican, 1/3 Dem and 1/3 Indie...BEFORE bush's lies sent them to die for his lies. And on this base it appears the 1/3 Indies are together with the 1/3 Dems against bush. :)

she and many shipmates are voting for Kerry. she also has friends in the military stationed throughout the world and many are K/E supporters.