The Democratic Party MUST give up on gun control

What a vast majority of this nation obviously wants is easy access to weapons. I say fine, if they want assault weapons, fine. Automatic weapons, sure thing. It just doesn't matter any longer.

I say we go further than the Republicans. We need to trump them on this issue.

We will never again get above an asterisk in American politics with the current stance of the Democratic PArty.

Flame away.

nt

why not?

That's what the eledctorate wants.

I know so many people who would never have voted for * except for this issue.

Jay

Florida law doesn't prohibit their possession AFAIK. You'll have to find someone willing to sell them to you and do some federal paperwork and pay some transfer taxes.

Or if you really aren't interested then why would you introduce a strawman argument about it?

We need to become more proegressive. Kerry was winning on those social issues that clearly we dominates with, but instead he choose to become a hawk.

SO, SO DUMB.

We LOST on social issues. Period. The last thing we need to do right now is move further to the left.

Sorry, Walt, but I disagree. What about honesty and integrity? That would be another black eye for this country as a whole. I'd prefer if someone had a great idea on how to dismantle the NRA and their freepin' lobbyists.

That SUCKS. And I totally disagree. How can they be dismantled or neutralized?

Let us get elected, do nothing about gun control--"it is best left to the states" would be our rallying cry. Let them try to spend their resources in solid blue states like NY and IL where they understand the need for gun control. Good luck knocking off Schumer, Durbin, or Clinton.

We should out-gun the Republicans. Give the NRA folks *everything* they want. Every single solitary item that isn't there for the purpose of stealing elections.

Everyone joines the NRA, storms the convention, and Dennis Kucinich becomes their next president. HA!

that the Dems have got to reassess everything right now. At this point I don't think there should be any "sacred cows", including gun control. While I don't at all like putting choice on the table for discussion, everything must be assessed in order to decide what to keep, throw out or do something else.

when we get a paper ballot, then we'll talk.

Guns aren't even near the top of the list of issues.

Maybe if we get screwed, and W. steals it, these gun freaks will get sent to Iraq and get a chance to shoot guns to their hearts desire.

not for you, but for the otherwise democratic voter in west virgina it very much is an issue.

That'll show the fuckers!

people who would otherwise vote for us have.

... then reproductive choice, then gay rights.... let's get rid of all these big ass stumbling blocks that keep every yahoo from voting Dem and we can call ourselves the New Republican Party.

It's obviously no longer important enough for anybody to care about it in the voting booth. Jettison the issue.

I m starting to come around to this thinking as well.

While we KNOW it is the right position to support reproductive freedom, if it causes us to lose fundie votes automatically w/o gaining any for our support,it is really hurting the Democrats.

After this humiliation, all these things need to be put back on the table. Our side is constantly defending these issues and the electotrate has completely lost sight of the Fact that Democrats have always stood up for the little guy. We need to get back to the Democratic issues that are WINNERS and not automatic electoral losers.

why not get ready to FIGHT THE THEFT?

No, it's more important to prove how smart you are by telling everyone what the Democratic Party needs to do.

How about recognizing the BIG LIE right now when it counts?

Where's the proof? All I see are words on blogs.

That's the reality. We just had an ass whuppin' and it's time to get up, shake it off, and reassess.

There are certain issues that, if we jettison them, we win. Gun Control is the most obvious issue to completely and totally jettison.

We need to address PAPERLESS VOTING!

things haven't quite gone our way?

We need to take back the south, that means rethinking some positions. One position I think that we can abandon at the greatest benefit and the least harm is the 2nd amendment issue.

If we didn't have our gun control agenda but left everything else intact we win at least 3 states below the Mason-Dixon line. Virgina, North Carolina, and perhaps Kentucky.

how do we take back the House and Senate without paper ballots?

wage, labor rights, the environment, and support launching preventative wars of choice!

You're right!!! With that kind of platform WE CAN WIN!!!

david

Gun rights are enshrined in the Second Amendment. As of now, abortion is legal.

The same reason that you want to control gun rights is the same reason that the fundies want to own my uterus -- for the good of some "high ideal."

Now many "high ideals" are OK, but gun control should be far, far down on the Democratic list.

This would not be a concession. Think about it this way -- we've quite traded the second amendment issue for the other nine amendments. If Bush wins, all the others are threatened.

The real deal would be for us to get out of the business of trying to make peoples' personal choices for them. Embracing the right to keep and bear arms is not exclusive of reproductive choice or sensible foreign policy.

If you don't believe me you have fallen into the very trap you claim to be describing.

I gave up on this issue long ago...It's not a national issue.

But we can't seem to shake the label...why?

As long as the Feinstein and Schumers of the world push their gun control agenda we'll NEVER get rid of that label.

This is probably the one biggest issue that kills us in the rockies and deep south.

The Party moves to right, but it doesn't work; the Right doesn't want us. Now, it's time to move to the left and find the well of new voters just as Reagan found the well of new voters in the fundies.

left voters are there?

their harsh and cruel policies are going to "hurt" the
average American so badly that people will automatically
move closer to the left. Those who would not listen to
us this time will be listening to alternative views next
time. Turning our party into a slight copy of the right
is not the answer.

and it wouldn't make any difference in the minds of the troglodytes in this country. Propaganda and fraud has turned a huge amount of people permanently against us. I don't know what the solution is but tweaking the platform ain't going to do it.

/sarcasm

nm

the overwhelming majority of gun owners are responisble people (even if the dumb enough to vote for Bush) the guns are out there and they're not going anywhere. THis issue is a loser for us.

Especially this morning.

This is civil war territory for me.

RCM

on EVERY one, fine.

We do nearly the same for our cars.

But no more of this gun-show crap.

The vast majority still want sensible gun control.

Time to get rid of this albatross. And for those who so adamantly defend their right not to let others own firearms, please explain in simple terms what progressive social purpose does gun control serve.

What's that I hear, crickets?

We'll give away AK47s as bonus prizes for registering with the Democratic Party. We'll put P. Diddy in charge of the program and specifically target (excuse the pun) the disaffected African American and Latino communities. A new arms race?

Every household has a right to have a nuclear weapon. Just kiddin

and education, and the poor, and healthcare....

Fuck, let's just move all the way to the Neo con right. We're nearly there already. :eyes:

This has been a loser issue since Day 1, and will remain so. I'm a gun-toting liberal, NOT an NRA member, and it's time to let this one go, y'all. Walt is right.

Half of this country doesn't think that way. We need our own issues, our own ideals, our own values.

They're not inconsistent.

Slack said it in another post here, we should get out of the "we'll make the choice for you- NO" mindset on firearms - people should have a choice on ownership.

And if we do, why don't we roll over on everything else?

Allow me to add to your list:

Gay marriage -- ehw -- too divisive, let's just go with the repugs

Right to choice? -- god no! -- we'll never win by being pro choice. Let's join the repugs in bringing back back alley abortions. We'll win every election!!

Minimum wage - pfft - who needs a wage anyway. Slavery was so much more efficient.


Just because you get a hardon over guns, doesn't mean that everyone else does. Guns are killing the youth of America -- a disproportionate number of those youths are African American.

Smart guns laws are good for America, just like the other elements of the dem platform.

Of course, it's often their own kids who get killed by the household gun. But they'd probably grow up to the Republicans.

Of course, a local 10 year old recently shot his father to death. Want more of that?

I do not support the NRA.

AK47 - I had one during and now I have one after the ban. The ban was cosmetic - Many people here with HIGH posts counts have said that. If we work towords common sense control and nots bans it would be accepted, Even by gun owners.

I have no trouble with the AW ban. It made no difference to me any many many others, All I had to do was change the stock on my AK. That's it, it is the same gun today that it was DURING the ban. It is the only gun I own and I use it to shoot pop cans and beer cans. YOU cannot buy an Automatic weapon since some time in the 30's unless you can get on e of the very few on the market and go through extensive background checks.

Look to Austrailia and England to see what you get with bans. NOW talk to me about sensible control and you will get my vote!

They need to define a clear separation between military hardware and "all other weapons", and come down hard on that line. As it is with too many other issues, they are splintered. They can't win in the Red States with gun control (look at the local Democrats in the Red States, and you will swear they are Republicans) and they can't win in the Blue States without gun control.

Obviously, like I said, purely military hardware needs to be kept out of reach (and yes, I include assault rifles and submachine guns in this category). But the fact is that general gun control is PROHIBITION with a pretty label slapped on it. Name any problem in this nation that we solved simply by denying people access to the source. Alcohol? Pot? Drugs?

It's just that simple. We need to come to grips with the fact that just because some of us don't like private ownership of firearms does not give us the right to prohibi or infringe upon the ownership of them.

I don't like platform shoes or disco balls, but the idea of keeping others from making the choice to own them seems anathema to the whole concept of this country.

Between military and civilian firearms.

Obviously, like I said, purely military hardware needs to be kept out of reach (and yes, I include assault rifles and submachine guns in this category).

The law that does that is called the National Firearms Act of 1934.

It ain't broke and doesn't need to be fixed.

Because most people (even many moderates and liberals) think of Democrats as being "anti-gun". Where we need the clear divide is in our RHETORIC. Specificly, because it has absolutely no fire behind it. By taking the stance that PROHIBITION on guns is wrong, it makes for a far more cohesive argument that no longer runs contrary to the rest of our platform. Fact is a quaint custom in politics. Image and interpretation translate to votes, and that's where we need work.

Unfortunately we have a ball and chain on the gun issue: A few extremists who insist on trying to paint the pro-RKBA side as necessarily Republican, or using distortions about details like the impact of the expiration of the federal "assault weapons" ban as propaganda. We have the Brady Center and the Million Mom Marchers who insist on pretending that the A) AW ban took some kind of dangerous weapons off the market and B) the end of the ban will result in streets flooded with automatic weapons.

Both claims are lies. Both are working against us because those notions fail a simple fact-checking process.

Would that be the short and the long of it? Well shit.

The way we categorize "Assault Weapons" is utterly stupid in this country. One of the qualifiers (besides obvious things like callibur, clip size, rate of fire and so on) is the number of ACCESSORIES on the weapon. The same rifle might be classified as an Assault Weapon and a normal Rifle depending on what kind of STOCK it has on the back of it.

So I agree, our classifications are pointless and don't do anything useful. And yet we "have to" defend them, in order to play to our base. You know, that base of Security Moms that might have voted for Bush anyway.

Gun voilence in America is a social ill. And no social ill can be rectified through denial and prohibition. That's a truly DEMOCRATIC value.

Magazine capacity, bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, folding stocks, pistol grips.

...callibur, clip size, rate of fire and so on...

The "rate of fire" of all semiautomatic firearms is one round per trigger pull, whether it's a hunting rifle or a scary-looking AK clone.

So I agree, our classifications are pointless and don't do anything useful. And yet we "have to" defend them, in order to play to our base.

No we do not have to defend them. We have the option to drop it and walk away from it.

Gun voilence in America is a social ill. And no social ill can be rectified through denial and prohibition. That's a truly DEMOCRATIC value.

We have a problem with criminal behavior, which is often exacerbated by criminal misuse of firearms. It all comes down to behavior IMO.

I intend to post a longer message when I have calmed down some, but for now this will do.

The Democratic party and progressives need to cut back on the social issues. This is what is killing us. Above all, we need to learn to persuade and convince the electorate rather than impose our views by judicial fiat. It is my absolute belief that resentment over social policies imposed by federal judges is the driving force behind the Repuke resurgence of the last 40 years.

I admit, in the case of civil rights, the need was urgent, and it had to be done. Besides, the country was overwhelmingly for civil rights. Where I think we went wrong was with abortion. The country was not with us at that time. And large portions, maybe the majority, are still not. Don't bother linking any "studies". If abortion rights were important to the American electorate, G*B wouldn't even have been close.

So we persuade, and resist the temptation to bypass the democratic process. they won the WH, they own Congress, and soon the SC will be their's. So what to do??

Here's my idea. We must fight to restrict the power of the courts to interfere in political issues. The conservatives want this, at this time. But will they continue to want it when it seeps into their brains that now they have the whip hand? Probably not.

So we should join with them to restore the judiciary to the least powerful branch of the government as it was for the first 100 years, or so. This will prevent them from using the courts to roll back the achievements that we already have won after they have been voted out of office.

In the meantime, we have won victories that cannot be rescinded.

But the Democratic party has painted itself into a corner. Why are social issues seemingly the driving platform these days? Well, thank the DLC for that - the party has largely abandoned the populist economic platform in favor of a pro-corporate stance very similar to that of the republicans.

As it stands, the Democrats are the socially progressive wing of the corporatist party, and in a country as conservative as the US, this just doesn't fly.

Even if we were to switch on gun control they would just say we are lying. Because thats what they do.


However, if we can take back the message. They say we need guns to protect ourselves from the government. I say we need guns to protect ourselves from evil rich people and corporations.

What we seem to have forgotten here is that we are the government too.

We must stop allowing the other side to define the terms of the debates here. One of my favorite Republican pundits, the late Lee Atwater, said "If you are always explaining yourself, you're losing".

Chomsky also shows how the "anti-politics" animus in the USA is an attempt to direct worker frustration at the shadow (government) and not at the source of the shadow (corporate power). American workers are encouraged to distrust government because government is potentially amenable to democratic processes and, therefore, can change (can, in effect, give substance to the shadow that can result in some measure of equity). Whereas, corporations (the source of the problem) cannot be changed democratically because they are, by their very nature, "unaccountable tyrannies."

No....in fact I'd like to run a candidate who isn't ultra wealthy period.

Really not every corporation is evil. Some are better than others.

To disarm 'militants' like the Black Panthers. They feared and armed citizenry fighting to protect their rights.

We can take this issue back, have it fit within our ideology, and win over red states in the process.

...instead of you know, standing for what's right.

would love it as long as we used the right kind of human for sacrifice.

Please, I implore you, explain to me why we have to carry this albatross around our necks and lose election after election in states like WV?

I know a guy that makes $25,000 to $30,000 a year as a security guard... he's in his mid 30s, in debt up to his eyeballs and votes Republican all the time because of 1 issue - he's afraid Democrats will take his guns.

Republicans have a lot of 1 issue voters - anti-abortion; anti-gay marriage;

We can't win by becoming what CNN has become - Fox-lite - that is a sure way to lose. We'll lose the Democrats that are anti-gun to a 3rd party candidate like Nader; and the Republicans & moderates that are pro-gun still won't trust us.

Same with abortion, gay rights and other issues.

We need to re-frame the issues, but we can't even do that because we don't have a platform for it in the media.

...that is actually the truly liberal stance.

But it's too late for that now. The Neocon cabal will be too deeply entrenched if we let them take this from us now, it won't matter.

Seriously. When was the last time a Dem advocated any new gun laws? We barely support the assault weapons ban.

after laughing at the pictures of Kerry Duck hunting. He knew Kerry's record, and one photo op wasn't enough to change his mind about Kerry's gun position.

If the formula is Guns, God, and Gays, we take the gun part out they're left with God and Gays, and frankly I think we win more then we lose if thats the equation.

CHANGE THE TERMS OF THE DEBATE.