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SF Paper: "If Dean is too liberal why don't we all just shoot ourselves?"

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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 10:14 AM
Original message
SF Paper: "If Dean is too liberal why don't we all just shoot ourselves?"
"An acquaintance of mine, Ted Webster, has thought of a fine bumper sticker. Goes like this: "If Dean Is Too Liberal Why Don't We All Just Shoot Ourselves?"

"Yes, the dangerous radical who threatens our very way of life is the last in a long line of zany socialistic Vermont governors. They're almost Canadian. Leftie Dean cut state income twice and cut the state sales tax entirely, and increased prison terms for felons."


Read the rest here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=%2Fchronicle%2Farchive%2F2003%2F12%2F19%2FDDGQV3KCJO1.DTL
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patricia92243 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't understand the bumper and i am a dean supporter
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It's saying Dean is not what Karl Rove and others are trying to project.
He runs a very balanced government.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. I love that bumper sticker!
I'm a big-time Dean supporter.

I agree. If Dean is too Liberal to get elected, the Liberals should quit the Democratic party and start a new progressive party. After all, we have nothing to lose if DEAN is to Liberal.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. Dean cut the income tax once minorly and raised the sales tax
he took credit for a much larger cut that the previous governor
caused

And almost all of Dean's democrat antagonists aren't against him for being too liberal. They're against him because he's the GOP's dream candidate, and we believe that he would be a scurge to the future of the party and the country by putting us in a deeper hole nationally that we couldn't recover from for years
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. The previous governor 'caused'?
Edited on Sun Dec-21-03 11:12 AM by Padraig18
Please explain that statement.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Again, the previous governor 'caused'?
I would like an explanation of that statement, please.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. explanation:
Edited on Sun Dec-21-03 11:29 AM by Bombtrack
the bigger tax cut was in fact signed into law by his Republican predecessor, Richard Snelling. In 1991, Snelling signed legislation authorizing higher tax rates that would "sunset" two years later. Dean, then lieutenant governor, took over after Snelling died, and the rates dropped automatically at the end of 1993.

also, the overall sales tax was raised from 4 percent to 5 percent during Dean's tenure.

a result of which, as many of Vermonts liberals have been contending for years is an overall more regressive tax system.
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Yes it's true....
and Bill Clinton benefited from the Reagan era...

And George Bush inherited Clinton's recession...

It's all so simple and true...

please...
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. You can't contend one sentance from that post is not 100 percent factual
I don't get how the Dean-supporters who aren't as clearly blinded into lying to themselves as you refuse to reject him
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sally343434 Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yeah, whatever
> ... we believe that (Dean) would be a scurge to the future of
> the party and the country by putting us in a deeper hole nationally
> that we couldn't recover from for years

Unlike ... Bush?
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. us = the democratic party
.
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Just like he did in Vermont,
huh?
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. That's one view that Karl Rove and Tom Delay are pushing.
I don't listen to them to make up my mind about Democratic candidates- are you suggesting we start now?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. can't have it both ways
If Dean doesn't get credit for the income tax cut then he didn't raise sales taxes. He inherited 28$ income tax and 5% sales tax. Taxes fell to 25% and 4% respectively. Then he increased sales to 5% but created a clothing exception. But again both taxes fell for the same reason so you can't have it both ways.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I'm not having it both ways
Dean cut taxes by .4 percent from the one and only tax cut that he signed, not by the 4 percent that he claims credit for

the clothing tax exception doesn't change the fact he raised sales taxes overall to 5 percent
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes you are.
Dean cut the sales tax before he raised it. He inherited a 5% sales tax. He left with a 5% sales tax. It has been a while since I took a math class but 5 does equal 5.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. He inherited a 4 percent sales tax, according to the boston Globe
what is your source, the Dean campaign? The people who take credit for a cut he never signed?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. No the state of Vermont
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/reports/tax/tax.htm
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You didn't link to anything that backed up your claim
why don't you just admit you were wrong
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. section 3.3
very decpetively labeled sales taxes.

Sales tax and rooms & meals tax revenues are a larger portion of the General Fund today then they were 20 years ago. Sales tax revenue grew from 17.9% of the General Fund in FY75 to 26.3% in FY95. Rooms & meals taxes grew from 5.1% to 8.9% over the same 20-year period. < See Appendix 3, Table 12.>

That growth was largely due to rate increases, sales growth, and inflation. During the twenty-year period, sales tax rates went from 3% to 5% and rooms & meals tax rates went from 5% to as high as 8% before returning to 7% in FY95. In addition, for FY90, the liquor portion of the rooms & meals tax was separated out and instituted at 10%. < See Appendix 3, Tables 1 and 2.>



At present, the sales tax rate is scheduled to revert to 4% at the end of FY97.

Yep it is right there. Would you please try reading next time?
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. it said during the 20 year period(not the Dean administration)
Dean left office with 5 percent sales taxes, whatever was scheduled in what I assume means 1997. 1 percent higher than when he entered it.

His SALES TAX RAISE, was well known to be objected to by liberals in the state.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Here you go
The jump to 6 percent is the first increase in the state’s sales tax since 1991, when it changed from 4 percent to 5 percent. The tax on the purchase of automobiles has been 6 percent since 1997 and did not change Wednesday.

This is from Oct 2003

http://timesargus.com/Story/72428.html

Dean became governor in August of 1991. Any increase either happened before he got there or was in the works before he got there. It was the same increase to 28% in income taxes (I think) which wasn't his plan. I think this settles it nicely.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Dean had to sign a bill to increase the sales tax
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/07/deans_tax_claims_bring_skepticism/

Indeed, Shumlin said he is still angry with Dean for raising the sales tax, putting Vermont at a disadvantage with New Hampshire, with no sales tax. "I am still enraged," said Shumlin, who nonetheless is supporting Dean's candidacy. "If Howard Dean had agreed with the Democrats, we would have reduced the sales tax on the working poor and kept in place the high income tax on those who can afford it. It is the same argument he is making against Bush, frankly."

Please admit you were wrong on this as well as, something we didn't argue about, the sales tax rate, 28 percent? Do you pay state taxes? That's an insane amount, even for Vermont, which has the highest tax burden in new england, AFTER Dean

Starting in 2000, the state income tax rate dropped from 9.9 percent to 9.5 percent. This is the income tax rate reduction for which Dean can claim credit -- much smaller than the drop from 13.5 percent claimed by the Dean campaign.
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. It means that
most of us here in SF are to the left of Dean, and therefore shouldn't be allowed to live (just ask Ann Coulter).
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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. From Here Dean look like a total establishment sell-out. But then isn't he
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
17. If Dean is too liberal for America
Get my bags please and get me the hell out of here, damnit if hes too liberal, I am a communist I guess.
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MidwestMomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Me too!
Should we head to Venezuela? I heard they have pretty lively elections!
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I dont know
I was thinking Europe or Canada.
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MidwestMomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Dennis would probably want us to stay here and fight the good fight...
Don't you think?

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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-21-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. LoL
I'll be a commie too :-)

If Dean is a leftie then Bush is a good president.
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