We may be on the brink of civil war

Everything I read being announced is leading us too one. They aren't uniting anyone, but forcing us into the only conclusion which can be a civil war.

...besides, we tried that once and it wasn't pretty. Relax - we're going to get through this as much as it may suck, and peacefully.

I'm talking about all these new policies and plans. Like the one were all Americans have to have health screens and they can decide to use shock therapy! Then the debt raising in two weeks. Things aren't looking good for his policy plans.

You said something about debt raising in two weeks. What are you talking about?

I don't have a link though

ASSOCIATED PRESS ARTICLE 11/4/04
By Martin Crutsinger

I am excerpting, and paraphrasing for brevity---NEM

WASHINGTON: The Bush administration announced on Wednesday that it will run out of maneuvering room to manage the government's massive borrowing needs intwo weeks, putting more pressure on Congress to raise the debt ceiling when it convenes for a special post-election session.

Republicans have proposed that the debt ceiling be raised from 7.384 trillion dollars to 8.074 trillion dollars.

The Republican controlled congress put off dealing with the debt ceiling before adjourning in October, preferring not to force members to vote on the politically sensitive issue of adding to the national debt before the November elections.

http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20041104/business/27102.shtml

WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration announced Wednesday that it will run out of maneuvering room to manage the government's massive borrowing needs in two weeks, putting more pressure on Congress to raise the debt ceiling when it convenes for a special post-election session.

Treasury Department officials announced that they will be able to conduct a scheduled series of debt auctions next week to raise $51 billion. However, an auction of four-week Treasury bills due to be completed Nov. 18 will have to be postponed unless Congress acts before then to raise the debt ceiling.

"Due to debt limit constraints, we currently do not have the capacity to settle our four-week bill auction scheduled to settle on Nov. 18," Timothy Bitsberger, acting assistant Treasury secretary for financial markets, said in a statement.

Congress is scheduled to return for a lame-duck session beginning Nov. 16 to deal with the debt ceiling, an omnibus spending plan for the rest of this budget year and other matters.

he laughed nervously, and we thought it was quadrillion?

Jayzuz, our great great grandchildren will be paying for this moron.

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By the New England states during the Jackson presidency, based on the abolition movement. It was a plan that was narrowly averted. Never know, such things could come back to haunt us. With the country as divided and uncivil as it is now, a civil war is becoming ever more a possiblity.

Didnt the South secced pretty much because Lincoln was elected?

I dont think we will actually have a Civil War, but if we were at the point that one were to happen just about anything can set off the powder keg.

Florida, 2000; Diebold (GA), 2002; and now BBV, 2004! If these won't provoke a civil war, what will?

Even though the network maps look like all the Kerry voters are in the NE and the west coast, but most of those red states in the middle still had 45%-48% of the voters for Kerry.

You'll find many more Rethugs in upstate NY (where I went to college) than you will in St. Louis, MO (where I live now). Kinda hard to have a civil war without clear geographic dividing lines.

Even if they are conservative.

Better to buy that AK-47 now while you still can!

But if it did, owning an AK-47 would just get me in more trouble.

It would be fun to watch them try.

The Nazis didn't "incarcerate" 6 million Jews; they gassed and burned them. Quite the space-saver, don't ya know.

They lived & kept to themselves due to the anti-sematism of the Christian church.

When the Nazis rounded them up, they didn't have many non-jewish allies to help them.

While the Democratic party is now dead, Liberals are hardly an outcasted group. We have conservative friends, neighbors and co-workers who, while they may not agree with us, will certainly not tolerate rounding us up and sending us to camps.

communities due to the bigotry in this country. They have lots of friends. Just like the ones here on DU that want to toss them overboard to pick up some votes.

Those who ignore history........

Where he takes a page straight from Joe Stalin's manual and declares all of us "insane" for opposing his fascism and sentences us to "treatment facilities" while keeping us chemically lobotomized with drugs conveniently manufactured by the Eli Lilly Corporation, associated with the Bush Criminal Empire for decades.

Jews were fully integrated in German society before the Nazi actions to segregate.

While maybe not a civil war, I'll be surprised if the next few years don't look like 1968-69.

:(

there were a map laid out that could identify all "blue" areas within EACH state. We may need that info.

I was fascinated with the red/blue layout of the electoral map. We "blues" were squeezed into corners! Though we know there are "blue" areas inside many other states. I want to see that.

ONCE MORE, Beware Calif. The "reds" are on the march. I've said it before, I'm saying it again. They do it subtly...watch your/our backs.
"They're heeerrree"

THIS IS WAR! And I'm NOT conforming to any fascist dictatorship nor any freaking lunatic Federal Theocracy!!

don't know how to post it.

if it's a graph or pic I think it has to be uploaded to an online site like photobucket, THEN downloaded here.

Damn formats! =o/

may have been the initiation and tinkering phase of the whole mess we are getting into now.. CA is a reliably blue state and the areas of repube-dom are easily defined, and pretty stable.. CA would have been a perfect state to "cut their teeth on" so to speak.. Nothing alarming..just tweaking here and there to see if red flags went up.. seeing none, they could concentrate of the "sell" phase..

"California is the most populated state and see how EASY..see how FAST..see how ACCURATE..and it's FUN.."


We were the poster child for e-voting..and with each election, some surprisiing ..close elections went red.. just a few here and there, but over several elections, I could see the dem majority in the statehouse being challenged... and then there is the Ahhhhnold fiasco.. I still am wondering about that.. did we really elect him, or was the HYPE so ferocious, that people THOUGHT he would be elected, and when it happened, no one questioned it..We'll never know..

all I know is that when we watched the news of his election, we were in Tahiti, and the Tahitian news people were speaking Tahitian, but their laughter was "no-translation-needed"

a lot of Southerners. Are you suggesting that the south wants to have slavery again? If you are referring the appalling history of the south and race relations, which we do have, then how do you explain California? There is a lot of equally nasty racial history in that state, against several groups, Hispanics, Asians, Indians ( some pretty horrific exterminations there)

The bible belt is very difficult to understand with out seeing just how much influence the religion has in the area. I'm from central Florida, living in Jacksonville now, and it still is a bit of a culture shock. We, the Democrat Party, do not know how to speak to the south in large, Edwards was right here. (too bad Edwards didn't have much to bring to the ticket, we was not powerful enough to get his state)

The Republicans target the church crowed, we need to find a better way of communicating OUR common ground, we have a lot of values that they have, they just don't know it.

found new people to oppress and hate..(Gays, immigrants and liberals)

Hate is nothing new, and narrowminded people tend to stay in one area where they can "feel comfortable".. Liberals tend to move, and can (and DO) get along with all types of people..

and yes, there is hate in California.. (We have republicans too..thankfully, not as many in concentration..The John Birch Society originated just a few miles from where I now live :(...)

and , we like to refer to ourselves as the DemocratIC party.. not the democrat party..:)..

about this time 4 years ago that it was coming. (If you believe in "spakeths from on high". If not, I have no other "proof" to offer you.)

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

done. Whether it's physical(?) or other means...IT IS NEEDED.

The people who went outside the party (liberal/progressive wing of it) for MORAL issues??? Are blinded and foolhearty. They are not people that share my values, my hopes, my dreams, my needs, my vision. Screw them

Boycott.

Those repugs and turncoat Dems that voted behind Moral Values? Welllllllll, I encourge, no URGE those of you liberal believers here and everywhere to STOP ATTENDING the churches and temples and synagogues etc. that support this agenda. Find another liberal spiritual group to commune with until all things settle down.

Bush's Moral Values are NOT the whole picture in reality. His values FALL FAR SHORT of so-called Biblical MORAL VALUES.

He and those that follow him are so IMMORAL as to be EVIL. Certainly any Christian persuasion, and their Churchs, that supported him are what is called APOSTATE. Learn the word. Use the word when you run into these sheeple.

from God...and millions will be decieved! bush is that deciever and the repukes are the fooled millions that John warns us about

The "weight" of this only fully dawned on me TODAY. I've sensed that Bush had some part in that scenario for a LONG time--due to my background as a former Evangelical Christian.

EVEN though I've given up on Christian exigesis for the most part. I think HE IS PURELY A DICTATOR IN TRAINING and we're headed for totalitariamism under the "New American Fascism".

In some ways, I do believe in the ability to "see" the future; in that regard, the Bible "profits" isn't the only source for seeing this fiasco come upon us. Nostradamus comes to mind. :scared:

I AM FURIOUS and I won't conform. "They" may kill me, but I won't conform. I've already set out on a letter writing barrage...

Truthfully, any understanding I have of society and politics comes from years of LIVING life in this America. I've learned things by bits and pieces, a sprinkling of intuition ;), and SHEER, HARD, where the rubber meets the road, EXPERIENCE.

Funny though, after the fact, when I pick up socio-politico writings..........they are the same as my own!! Kinda eerie.

NEVER BACKDOWN FROM YOUR PRINCIPLES...NEVER AGAIN.

of the White Rose - the anti-Nazi student pamphleteers - that has been making quite an impression on me lately:


"Every word that comes from Hitler's mouth is a lie. When he says peace, he means war, and when he blasphemously uses the name of the Almighty, he means the power of evil, the fallen angel, Satan. His mouth is the foul-smelling maw of Hell, and his might is at bottom accursed. True, we must conduct a struggle against the National Socialist terrorist state with rational means; but whoever today still doubts the reality, the existence of demonic powers, has failed by a wide margin to understand the metaphysical background of this war. Behind the concrete, the visible events, behind all objective, logical considerations, we find the irrational element: The struggle against the demon, against the servants of the Antichrist.

http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/leaffoureng.html

I'm a former evangelical myself, and though I'm long since through waiting for the rapture, I believe we're truly in battle against dark principalities and powers in high places.

They seem full of irrational beliefs.

after identifying that he is the one, then how to get rid of him? Inquiring minds have to know!

We've been in a shooting civil war for some time now, and it's high time some of us began to recognize both that fact and that the other side has been doing all the shooting. How many more abortion doctors have to be shot and killed? How many more homosexuals have to be dragged out into a field and beaten to death? How many mosques have to be bombed, people arrested as political prisoners, or civil rights violated? How many more of our political leaders have to be MURDERED before we do something?

These people are LITERALLY killing us and we all we have done is just sat back to form committees and discussion groups. It's time to get in their face.

They may have the guns but we got the geeks and some money, too

If they mess with Roe v Wade I am hitting the streets

You're right. This is nothing new. But now we are faced with being absolutely beaten in the political arena. We have no voice.

What is our option? Direct action. Adopt old school labor tactics employed by my father and grandfathers and get in peoples faces.

Just pointing out the obvious.

There are many of us that own a respectable collection of firearms. My father and his old school labor radicals have more weapons than I care to think about.

That liberals don't own guns is a myth.

And yes, I do own an AK47.

and I'd like to see them use the Patriot Act to try and get it.

It was a GOOD thing that gun ownership wasn't killed. As my mountain dwelling LIBERAL sister has said: WE MAY NEED THEM NOW...

A very expensive hobby if you can stand the NRA pukes. Real Freeper types do not touch guns. NRA pukes are not exactly Freepers.

Elections come and go. The fundies will overplay their hand. If we are smart we will start building the organization and message to take advantage of that. It starts today by painting the new Republicans as crazy out of touch fundies. Despite all the hand wringing around here the past few days, I still think that the pen will again prove mightier than the sword.

I think an arsenal can be had by the rest of us.

I think I can arm and equip at least a dozen fellow DU'ers :-)

and they don't know where mine are either..

Not all of us Dems supported gun control.

...sadly Kerry only broke 60% in those two states. It's striking how many states took Bush over 60%.

If a revolution were to occur...I'd think it would have been the right over Kerry winning.

Let's be very frank. Bush made gains in many blue states...disturbing gains. Kerry won New Hampshire...which Gore would have won handily if Nader hadn't been such a force. Even in reliably blue states, the margins for Bush were in the mid 40's.

let's give 'em their fucking revolution.

and "time to use political capital and get it done" talk today, he's only verbalizing the total contempt and disdain he has for anyone who disagrees in the slightest with him, let alone those who didn't vote for him. He basically told us to fuck off, and I have no doubt he has ways of dealing with us. He's going ahead and pushing the radical hard-right wingnut agenda, and there's nothing to stop him now since they control everything.

And I have the feeling that half the country ain't gonna put up with that, and frustration and anger will build up to an unbearable point. They're already beginning to come after us, because their supporters have been greatly emboldened by this and have been given the not-so-subtle hint that they pretty much have free rein to do what they want. I've never seen the country this polarized before, and it ain't going away. Especially when he starts implementing his true agenda, and those who voted for him out of fear and security issues and not for any other reason are going to realize just what they voted for and just what they've done. And they ain't gonna be too happy, either. It's coming, folks, believe it.

The anti-gay threads that have popped up in this forum, and are still open as I write this?

Blaming the GAYS for the election loss and sugesting that we MUZZLE THEM or DRIVE THEM OUT of the party?

I am ready for war--with THESE people---any day of the week.

IF it is the fantasy world dark agers and their bs bible that cost us the election, then it seems the target of our rage should be where?

Ok, it wasn't JUST them, but my point is, we cannot consume ourselves. We believe in civil rights. If we can't embrace that and extend it to everyone, straights, gays, blacks, whites, purples, whatever, then we are hypocrites.

It's brother against brother out here tonight.

If Kerry would have been given his votes (I do not acknowledge a loss) the Freepers would be threatening Civil War against Kerry.

No doubt about it Bush is pathological. In time the Freepers will begin to suffer as this nation spins out of economic control.

We are allowing wedge issues to divide us and we all need to get a grip.

The fact there's a war that will soon be taking kids off campuses and dumping them into the berms of Iraq have little import to our college or the ones who could end up doing the dying.

That's the ultimate insult of what happened Tuesday. No mincing words here, lots of the 18-30 year olds either couldn't be bothered with anything outside their self-indulgent worlds or there are more energized by the right wing than by the left. I was tremedously let down on Tuesday...more by this than anything else since.

I expect we'll see people in the streets but in cells here and there that will just create either further divisions. There's no anti-war movement in this country, no real interest in creating the networks that existed in the 60's that educated a generation and led to great changes. Sadly Tuesday was yet another great defeat to what was such a promising era. Oh well, smoke another doob and pop on another Grateful Dead album...

...especially since we've all got to find out who's going to be the special guest star this week on "Everybody Loves Raymond".

eom

no way will the media be able to hide the dissent this time

while any protesters will be relegated to the farmland behind Dulles airport.

(Which, incidently, was the scene of the two Battles of Bull Run)

I don't believe in guns, but give me a bat or stick and bring it!

Remember MLK
Remember all the abortion doctors
Remember homosexuals being killed
Remember African Americans lynched for centuries

we've been in a Civil War for a generation. The bad guys have been the only ones fighting.

first off, not enough members here have the guns to do anything. OK, Senator Feinstein said that AK74's are $75 on the street, now how many people are going to get off their lazy ass to go buy one even at that price? Plus, if the progressives are not motivated enough to get off their ass to vote what makes you think that they are going to take to the streets or rooftops to engage in open hostilities? It'll be, "<Yawn>Oh, Bush? Yeah, he's bad, now what's on the nighttime soaps tonight?"

My prediction, lots of pissing & moaning & spilling of digital ink on this forum but nothing concrete done. Sorry, but I am so out of it from Kerry concession speech .........

RegexReader
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Civil war? Bring it on. I'll be blogging it all.

Tucker

I certainly hope that it doesn't come to violence.
I'm just too tender for such things.

Empty rhetoric?
Moral cowardice?

...take your pick.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

If a good man compromises with an evil man what has the good man gained? I tell you it is nothing, but the evil man has gained everything. We know fascism is an evil blight on the world, compromising will only lead to more fascism. A country cannot remain half slave and half free, Lincoln said that.(or half red and half blue) By your logic, we should have compromised during the civil war instead of fighting to free the slaves.

Sometimes it is right to stand up and fight.

RegexReader
¶



<Don't know where I saw that originally but it is very very true>

Which blue-state legislature is going to draw up an act of secession?

Get back to me when this happens & we'll talk Civil War.

... for the most part, it's the conservatives that have the majority of the guns in this country. Some how, some where we decided to adopt gun-control into our platform and it sucks big time. Try ARFCOM.

Relax Chicken Little...

Take a walk outside. What do you see? You see the EXACT same thing you saw on November 1st. Hell, you see the EXACT same thing you saw on November 1st, 1992, for what that's worth.

Life goes on. All I know for sure right now is that I'm still pissed about Tuesday, and I'm helping my 72 year old puke mother move into her new home tomorrow...And politics won't even be discussed. But her STUPID collection of Norman Rockwell stuff sure will be.

Politics is EVERYTHING here. Out there, is hardly a blip on the screen.


Civil War? Please. Go read some history.

Not the Southern and midwest states that's for sure!

be civil".

And they don't care where it starts!

let's just divide the country up.

*shouts* Somebody get me a roll of duct tape, please!

LMAO!!!!

It didn't work out very well.

In his speech yesterday, he said something to the extent of "if the Democrats want to participate in our agenda, that is fine. If not, they will simply be left behind".

It requires Google:

First, do a google of the electoral map (you know, the one with all the pretty red states... blech...)

Then, do a good of the U.S. in 1850, mapping out slave-states, slave-friendly states, and free-soil states.

Notice any similarities? Hmmm?

I don't doubt for one second that we could truly be on the verge of civil war. Are we going to have an underground railroad so gay people can escape South Carolina and be free to marry in Vermont?

Don't laugh it off - the last time the country was split like this, civil war DID happen... and WE WON!

Germany 1930: Under questoonable circumstances, Nazi party gains majority party staus in the Reichstag
USA 2000: George W. Bush takes power under questionable circumstances.

Germany 1933: Reichstag burns to the ground. Nazis blame it on communists and Jews.
USA 2001: WTC hit by planes. Republicans blame it on homosexuals and Arabs.

Germany 1934: Adolf Hitler named Fuhrer. Reichstag disbanded.
USA 2004: Bush and Republicans get sweeping victory in National and Congress elections.

Germany 1935: Ban on marriage between Aryans and Jews.
USA 2005: Possible ban on gay and lesbian marriages.

Which means...

Germany 1936: "Krystallnacht", or Night of Broken Glass. Jewish buisnesses are destroyed, and Jews killed or thrown out of their homes all over Germany.
USA 2006: ???????

will someone please give some serious thought to the question: who is the enemy?

The enemy is not your neighbor who was scammed into voting for Bush.

The enemy is not the crackpot pro-lifer who killed the abortion doctor after being incited to violence by the clever ploys and machinations of political strategists.

The real enemy is hidden behind the curtain -- and hopes that you will fight your neighbor and your brother, never noticing that he/she/it is lurking in the background.

The real enemy is corporate America, the parasites who make money with every loan you take, with every illness you fight, etc.,--people like that corporate executive with the $6,000.00 shower curtain (Tyco?).

How many of you pay interest on your credit card(s)? Why? Why don't you simply save money (and earn interest) and then make your purchase? Who told you that EVERYONE has SOME credit card debt? Who told you that you must KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES EVEN IF IT MEANS GOING INTO DEBT?

You wanna have an impact? Pay off your debts, and then never EVER pay interest again (except small home mortgage on modest house). You are enslaving yourselves, economically.

just as I identified the enemy as corporate America--not your Bush-voting neighbor.

(Response to your "?")

this was posted at another forum. i reposted cause of how they were talking about. DU'ERS are best on knowing stuff. I just wanted to knowwhat it is. Basically was caught more in emotin on it then logic.

because we have to take it since Kerry conceded, and we cannot or won't fight it in the streets. Like the repug in the next cubicle taunted me today, "You take the First Amendment and I'll take the Second; and we'll see who stays free longer." Too many are going to turn to Friends reruns until the next election tantalizes them with some new entertainment.

It is going to be a long 4 years of wearing black.

RegexReader
¶

I know I'd be one of the first to buy a book or even read a paper that detailed the notion of "secession" or "civil war" in the United States -- how was the South in the Civil War able to declare secession all at once -- I mean, how did they muster the resolve? How much of the population in the seceded states were in support of their cause?

What do our nation's historical documents say about secession or revolution? When is it justified? Etc.

In relation to today, how does a state like California secede when it has a Republican governor? Etc. etc.

Any historians or poli sci scholars out there?

but will certainly look into it as I have time.

I would guess it's pretty hard for blue states with Repub governors to secede.

the Map of free states compared to the map of Bush victories supports that.

We need to approach the same relgious sentiment that helped to create the underground railroads and save the lives of untold amounts of slaves.