don't give up on the South

nt

The Big Dog and Gore came to Kentucky to campaign more than anyone since Henry Clay. Everyone else on both sides pretty much ignores and therefore marginalizes the south.

Progressive values and Southern values are incompatible with one another.

Fuck the South. The Dems should work on turning Ohio, Colorado, Arizona.

The only Southern states they should even look at are North Carolina and Virginia--because they are becoming less and less Southern every year.

But hey, losing over and over and over is a small price to pay to prevent self-important pseudoprogressive horse's asses from having associate with undesirables, right?

The South is solidly Republican. Because it's backwards.

Just like it's been for the past century or so.

Alabama, Missippi, et al would be third-world societies were it not for federal courts and troops and welfare.

cause they're all backwards, and have been for 100 years.

Whatever. You obviously have no idea what your talking about.

The party has been cleansed of them now.

Dixiecrat was dead by 1972.

all that quickly.

you're all over the place.

does for Zell outs.

He won Florida, Louisiana, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky and Missouri.

It can be done.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

The fact that you treat it as one suggests that you don't know much about the place. Have you spent any time here? Have you ever just gotten out and talked to people? Do you know anything about the place other than what you've seen on tv?

We're talking about an area with about a quarter of the country's landmass and population. There's a lot of variation in a place that size.

We're also talking about a place that has more than half of the electoral votes needed to win. Blithely writing that off without a fight is foolish--it's like giving your opponent a fifty-yard head start in the hundred yard dash.

I'm reminded of some occurances during my many business trips to NYC. I became friends with some of my clients, a couple were "out the island" (lived on Long Island to the rest of us) and some were in Manhattan. One commuted from Saybrook, CN. All had, at least, traveled to Europe. Most had also been to Asia, Austrailia, and/or South America. None of them had ever been to the Statue of Liberty or Ellis Island. All they knew about most of the U.S. is what they saw from airplane windows or on television. (We all know how accurate television is.)

It took a country hick to get them to see two of the most important landmarks in our nation's history. Not one of them could tell me how Wall Street got it's name. (I had to tell them.) I found these things out over time during the process of getting to know my customers and later in getting to know better the friends they had become.

My point? They learned that large cities are not the center or backbone of this country. The south isn't either. Neither is the heartland or the west coast. It is a symbiotic organism that requires all of its many parts to be the great nation it is.

We have had and will have our speed bumps along the way. We're hitting one now. It will pass. I feel that this one is relatively minor in comparison to many that we've overcome in the past. The current financial stuation is no worse than the '70's and certainly wouldn't make a good wart on the '30's. The war in Iraq is a terrible thing. Small potatoes compared to Viet Nam at this point.

I suppose I've just lived almost long enough to have a little perspective on some things. I would prefer a different president now and possibly yet another on Jan. 20, 2005. That's not going to happen, so I see it for what it is: a call to us to organize and work for the next cycle.

end of ramblings

the South? The part about treating gays like human beings? The part about opposing theocracy?

The South abandoned the Democratic party because the Dems wanted to treat African-Americans like human beings.

The only thing that will redeem the South is more sane people moving into it. This is happening to a certain degree in Northern Virginia and NC's research triangle.

But the Deep South is beyond hope.

You remind me of those William Bennett types who say that adding Alice Walker to the syllabus means that we have to "dump" Shakespeare.

Here's an idea: how about a little old-fashioned class war? The main reason that social issues have come to dominate American political discourse is that the parties are pretty much alike on economics. Oh sure, the Democrats make regretful sounds about outsourcing and promise to include labor standards in the "free trade" agreements, but in the end there's not much difference there for those whose jobs have been sent away. So why not vote on "moral issues"? It's not like either party has been busting its ass for rural people and blue-collar workers these past thirty years, but one party does pretend to at least respect them, and it's not us.

And you didn't answer my question: what personal knowledge do you have of the South?

to helping blue collar workers. Our record on the right to unionize, wage conditions (overtime and minimum wage especially), health care, and child care all beat the hell out of the Republican agenda.

The fact that they would rather use their vote to "fag bash" and establish a theocracy than to create better working conditions for themselves leads me to not respect cultural conservatives. Sorry, but an irrational bigot who works against his own self-interest is still a stupid goddamn bigot.

As far as rural voters go, fuck them straight to hell. They insist on being able to suck on the federal teat, and then vote Rethug because of abortion. They are a total lost cause. Cut their subsidies, and let them such on that.

How many of our so-called progressive Democrats sold out the working man with NAFTA? A piece of legislation that had everyone involved except apparently the workers themselves, the ones who happened to have the biggest stake in it. It was CLINTON who signed that worker busting piece of legislation.

If Democrats were really so leftist as far as economic policy, how come the anti-worker Taft-Hartley Act was never repealed when the Democrats were in power? How come the Democrats have done nothing significant over the last several decades as unions have been eroded in numbers and strengths in a concerted campaign by corporatists and likeminded Republicans who sought to shut up the American workers?

We are only marginally better on issues of concern to the working class. Kinder and gentler outsourcing is still outsourcing. Combine that with the common perception among working people that liberals hold them in contempt--a perception amply born out right here in this forum--and it's not hard to see why we're about as popular as canker sores in most of the country.

Dear lord, you sound like Zell.

I know, stupid question.

Delete.

You're talking like a GOP outreach person, acting like the it's liberal New Yorkers'fault that the GOP owns the South, to the extent that even moderate war heroes like Max Cleland can't hold office down there.

The problem isn't the DNC. The problem is the South, and the fact that they worship Bush and his crowd.

You, on the other hand, have been talking very much like someone who wants to serve as Exhibit A for Zell Miller.

That is why I quite frankly suspect you of being a troll, since Democrats generally don't spend hours and hours doing everything in their power to alienate fellow Democrats. If you're actually sincere about all this, then the most charitable thing one can say about you is that you mean well but are doing a lot of damage in spite of it. In either case, the attitude you have so capably represented here is part of the problem.

Bring it on. My wife, who taught 8th grade until her retirement says that your rants remind her of a few of her students that learned some big words and loved to cuss.

Sounds fairly accurate to me.

tell me how to live, invade other countries and kill their people, and then mooch off my blue state tax $$ on top of that--you'll have to forgive me for resenting them for that.

Seriously, the Northeast has a hell of a lot more in common with Canada than it does with the Confederacy.

I'll help you pack and loan you my pickup truck - the one with the gun rack in the rear window. Don't throw out my spare snuff in the glove compartment.

Alabama, Missippi, et al would be third-world societies were it not for federal courts and troops and welfare.

Look to see which party was in control in those states at the time.

How elitist can you be? Can't you see that is the attitude that alienates most Republicans and some Democrats? How do you like it whe someone looks down on you, especially when it is misinformed and undeserved?

Yup, we have poor states that are behind in education. We also have some of the best educational institutions in the world. If that isn't progress, I'll vote Republican for the rest of my life.

and progressives. No longer. Different political map--the segregationists and Dixiecrats are now all GOP.

Small town and rural folk love to talk about how they hate city slickers and the evils of the big city.

Remember how popular John Rocker was with small town Georgians.

Keep on with the belittling and disparaging of my home and my neighbors and you'll keep on getting election results such as we got Tuesday. People will not listen to insults and be swayed to our point of view. Insults may be regarded as a reasonable debate tactic in your neighborhood, but they just piss people off everywhere else. Pissed off people do not listen. Pissed off people will work against those who caused the condition out of spite, if nothing else.

Break free from your elitist attitude and come join the true progressives who believe in inclusiveness instead of divisivness.

so good, so accurate, so true, so what I want to say!!

It doesn't just apply to the South. I am from the Great Plains (ND) and now live in CO. I've lived in KY and VA. (As well as blue IL)
And it applies to the military, too... my reason for living in KY and CO because my husband is military.

We can't put anyone down and expect anyone to listen to our ideas.

There is a sharp cultural and ideological fault line that separates the south from Blue America.

Pretending that it doesn't exist, or that it's Blue America's fault that it exists is just silly.

There's a reason they don't like Democrats too much down there: Because Democrats don't think and act like Republicans.

Just ask Max Cleland and Roy Barnes. They weren't Republican enough, or in the case of Barnes, not pro-Slavery enough, to merit reelection in Georgia.

they got at the ballot box?

If Roy Barnes and Max Cleland are too damn liberal and elitist for the South, screw the South.

That's not what brought this great man down at the polls. He was too much of a threat to Bushco and therefore was annihilated by Rove and his merry men. Southerners weren't behind his demise (though I will certainly grant you that far too many were willing dupes when the dirty games began).

My point is, it seems you are equating every single instance an issue or candidate you support doesn't win a majority of votes in a given election in the South with a rejection of all things progressive and just.

It is a simplistic view at best, a bigoted one at worst. Are political issues and public figures that one dimensional in New York? I know they are not. Why can you not believe that there are actually complexities involved in life in another region?

but a vibrant and interesting region of this country, far more diverse in ethnic and economical backgrounds than many other areas of the United States. It is full of both conservatives and progressives (I'll remind friends here that Kerry got more than 40% of the vote in red states across the South; in fact, Bush's popular vote gains were more significant in non-southern swing states than they were in the Deep South this year). Just because conservatives outnumber us (at least at the polls at this point), doesn't mean Southern liberals and progressives have disappeared.

I understand the anger. Just think a lot of it is misplaced, and therefore a lot of statements are being made and actions planned that will do absolutely nothing to reinvigorate the Democratic Party.

Can't we delve a little deeper than "The South never listens" and "The South doesn't understand" and "The South doesn't know #$%^ from shinola"?

Ok, no one of this board has posted that last one - yet. But I'm waiting for it to pop up any day!

Wonder of wonders! Even here in the South, our grade school teachers taught us about personification of inanimate objects or concepts. It is the stuff of poetry and love letters, not political discourse. "The South" can't listen, understand or know anything as a monolithic entity. Those who just cannot bring themselves to get past the ugly stereotypes are missing out on a lot of potential allies and friends as a result.

Nothing will change the south...nothing.

Unless, Of course you change the whole party platform and disenfranchise 59% of those who are Democrats.

Looks like it's mixed to me. The only place that's solidly Republican is out where the buffalo roam. Quit your whining -- Southerners hate that shit. And a lot of us still ARE on the side of Democracy. This isn't a north vs. south thing. It's more like peace & justice vs. greed and religious insanity. As unfortunate as it is, you can find all of those things in any region.

but some people want to change what "progressive values" are, and that change is what makes them incompatable with "southern values."

I doubt you'll get the point, but I'm far too ignorant to explain it to a suave urbanite such as you.

backwards and as intolerant of diversity as ever.

50% of the white people in Alabama are unabashed white supremacists, based on empirical data.

People like Trent Lott, Jim DeMint, Tom Coburn, Tom DeLay, Jim Inhofe. That's who the good people of the South send to the Senate.

Hell, David Duke got the lion's share of the white vote in Louisiana one election.

Taunting a dog from the other side of the fence still encourages it to bite. We got bitten on Tuesday by the same attitude you're displaying here - don't work for change, run away.

Perhaps if there were more of us working in the red states instead of standing across the divide hurling invective and giving useless advice, we'd get the paint job done.

there seems to be more and more of the looking down their noses at red states going on here. I thought liberals were tolerant of other people and their beliefs. However, now it seems to be all about calling people "stupid" and such. No wonder red-staters don't want to listen to our ideas. I don't listen to people that call me stupid either.

Georgians fired Roy Barnes from office because he wouldn't worship the flag of slavery and treason.

Ask Max Cleland about how fair and open-minded his fellow Southerners are.

I wasn't born in the south so I can't relate to the racism there. I have been there, though. But either way, I choose not to give up and just put people down. I guess I just don't like to put down whole groups of people at all. It just alienates too many people and it does nothing to educate them.

the Dems and progressives have to choose where to allocate resources and what message to push.

It is up to the South to come around and pull its head out of its collective ass. Until they stop drinking the RNC/Jerry Falwell Kool Aid, nothing any Democrats or progressives is going to make a damn bit of difference.

and you have every right to have it. I just prefer not to look down on my fellow human beings and write them off.

because of you attitude.

Let's just forget about schools because everyone knows that kids are ignorant. That makes about the same sense.

against horrible Nazi-like Republicans.

You can't blame New York City liberals for the reactionary nature of Southern voters. Max Cleland wasn't an NYC elitist. He was a moderate populist who was thrown out by the wingnuts in his state.

You're automatically gainsaying all arguments without offering alternatives. This discussion is closed on my part. I've better ways to spend my time.

Southerners have been whining about the Democrats abandoning them since the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

The South and the Dems divorced that year. With a minor flirtation, the South has been solid Red since then.

Link please?

I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses here - I grew up in Alabama and had mixed feelings about returning to live here after 20 years living around the world. I know that we have a LONG way to go on a LOT of issues in Alabama, perhaps more so than in any other southern state. I continue to be disappointed with state votes on critical tax reform bills and judicial races. I'm disgusted when I see the congregation I grew up in has morphed into a Six-Flags-Over-Jesus atrocity that features "laying hands on your dog" services now but gives less money and brings in fewer volunteers for community service and mission projects than it did when it had a fraction of its current membership.

As I said, a LONG way to go. A LOT of issues.

I can accept - and agree with - specific statements like that from anyone, from any state, in any region of this country. What I just can't accept is blind, blanket and hate-driven slurs aimed at millions of people in thousands of cities and towns in dozens of states in one region that is no more or less perfect than any other.

It's unfortunate that some people will not accept the truth. I am from the south and have many relatives still living there. Many white Southerners still hate black people, yearn for the days of Jim Crow and ran to the Republican party simply because the Democrats supported civil rights for African Americans. In some areas blacks don't even bother to go into the rural areas because of the racial prejudice there. In some of the smaller towns it's as if the civil rights era never occurred. Yes gay marriage and abortion may be of concern but it is race that really drives white Southerners to the Republican party. The racists perceive the Democratic party as the party of the blacks, the Republican,the party of whites.

and nearly coast to coast.

We lost Senate seats in North Carolina, Florida, South Carolina, Georgia, and Louisiana. There are only 6 democratic senators left in the South...Blanche Lincoln was the only one to win this time.

The tables have turned and we now have a one-party system again...but this time it's the Republicans.

The south will suffer disproportionately. Whther that will clue their ignorant heads into what's happening is anyone's guess- but Howard Dean certainly had the right angle about how to play them.

Just like so many others on this board, you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. Within my lifetime I've seen lifelong Dems grind down minorities and non-Protestants harder than anyone else in the south. Does George Wallace ring any bells?

There are many of us fighting as hard as we can to bring change in our home states. Waht do we get for it? We get slammed by having our homes insulted, being called names, and generally ignored until we lose an election. Go ahead, give me one red state in this election aside from Florida and Ohio that got much more than a pasing glance from ANY candidate.

Lastly, when the chips are down economically, at least rural America still eats well.

We Democrats would be shitting in tall cotton if it did.

It's amazing how many otherwise intelligent people just cannot grasp the very sensible idea that looking down your nose at people causes them not to like you.

"It's amazing how many otherwise intelligent people just cannot grasp the very sensible idea that looking down your nose at people causes them not to like you."

BINGO BINGO BINGO

by DARING to disagree with George W. Bush on workers' rights.

Ask Roy Barnes, who looked down on his constituents by refusing to worship the flag of treason and slavery.

Southerners are the GOP's bitches.

people deserves to be looked down upon. Do you think it is wrong for people of good will to look down on the people in Alabama who just voted to retain segregation era language in their constitution? Do you think it was wrong to look down on the people in the state of Louisiana who almost gave David Duke a seat in Congress? And what about the rural areas that allow separate proms for the different races. What about the continued use of the Confederate flag, a flag when seen by blacks hurts them and cause bitterness. In some instances the south deserves to be looked down on. In many areas of that section it as if they are still fighting the civil war. There have been at least three suspicious hangings in the south during the past three years. All suspicious but ruled suicides. Maybe people would feel differently about the south if more its people would live in the twenty first century rather than the nineteenth.

You didn't approach the matter as condemning racism or social injustice. You approached it as condeming a place and all the people in it.

Angry about racism in Mississippi? Good--so am I. So let's condemn the racists in Mississippi. But when we condemn Mississippi, we take in the 40% of the people there who vote with us. And we piss them off and give ammunition to those who insist that liberals/Democrats hate "people like us."

That's why the South-bashing here creates so much dissent. The Southerners who hang out here are not conservatives, my friend. We are liberals, and we have to deal with reactionaries every day, fighting an uphill battle that pampered urbanites cannot even begin to imagine, and then we come here in hopes of being with people we agree with, only to have our alleged allies line up to kick us in the butt.

When you act as though "The South" is some sort of monolith, and then condemn that monolith, that's what you are doing to your fellow liberals here who come from the South and are trying to make things better here. You are rewarding us for our efforts by kicking us in the ass.

The red state I'm living in -- West Virginia. Kerry and Edwards made multiple appearances all over this friggin' state -- fat lot of good it did them, huh? Bush still carried WV by 13 points.

Outside of Florida, which other state had a sizeable Democrat organization working? Or how is the DNC and the DNCC helping local candidates and building up the party from the bottom up.

I'll say it again, without a strong party from the bottom up, not the top down, Democrats will not win national elections.

Just by throwing an Edwards name on the ticket didn't help get North Carolina as Gore being from Tennessee helped there.

It's time to get back to the very basics or be satisfied with the end results.

but want to live among progressives, I suggest you move to Northern Virginia.

We must fight them on their turf. We can't give up on the South. That was Kerry's strategy and it failed miserably. We must buy radio stations down there and talk to them in their own twisted, "Christian" language. We must buy advertising. We must buy billboards that say things like:

"War is not a Christian value, Reject Republicans"
"Greed is not a Christian value, vote Democrat"
"Hate is not a Christian value, vote Democrat"

These people are easily manipulated. We must control the message and the media in the South to get them back. That is the only way. Do not give up the South. We must re-take the South. We must fight back.

Fundie Christians=hopeless cult.

Let me show you how the typical white southern fundie will see your last two signs:

"Greed is not a christian value, vote satanist"
"Hate is not a Christian value, vote Baby-killer"

What do they see- satan trying to decieve them with trickery, trying to make them think that their god fearing officials are greedy rather than generous (they gave 'em $300 back on their taxes), hateful rather than compassionate and loving.

Trying to convince them otherwise is like trying to convert them to atheism.

I lived with and around these people most of my life, I'm glad to be rid of them.

Then lets attack the Republicans in the South without mentioning Democrats. My point was that we can beat the GOP in the South on the "values" topic. Disagree with how I present it or how we should go about it, but I am right in my idea. You must admit that. We must attack Republican values in the South. They are not TRUE CHRISTIAN values. We must get the word out down there and not give up the South.

And yes, fundamentalists are easily manipulated. How do you think they were duped into voting against their own economic and social interests in the first place. Im not talking down, I am stating the truth.

But the kind of thing you're talking about is too, dare I say it, nuanced. I've said this in an earlier post: what you are advocating, reversing a generation of brainwashing, will require at least a generation. Look at where the house stands. Look at where the senate stands. Look at who the president is. We don't have a generation. These people want to destroy our way of life, and they are on the fast track to doing it. We need a quick but ruthless plan to effect a rapid change. I'm sorry, but they will only learn about their leaders' hypocrisy through their own suffering. From one southern progressive to another: secure a job, or come to college or grad school, up here. You can do more good here.

can help.

In another thread, referenced in a later post in this thread, you stated that the Murrah Bldg. in OKC was blow up by one of Oklahoma's homegrown nut jobs. Uh, don't look now, but McVeigh was from Pendleton, NY. Last time I checked, NY was a blue state. Rural America has no corner on the nutjob market.

These people are easily manipulated.

Statements such as that are what helped build the red fence. The best way to piss anyone off is to talk down to them and/or insult their intelligence.

IF southern folk are so backward, why are we growing more high-tech and manufacturing jobs per capita than anywhere else in the country? (Check the numbers before you fire back on that one. You may be surprised.)

Cause a bunch of yankees moved down, set up shop, organized things, and adminstered them?

:evilgrin:

Money caused many companies to move south. The cost of doing business is far less than in the NY, Chicago, etc. areas.

They also got a nice surprise when they got here: a workforce that has both the education and the willingness to work which, in turn, makes their businesses prosper.

We've prospered and done well. Not only do we have Fortune 500 companies and Government contractors, we have upscale malls, entertainment complexes, restaurants, subdivisions springing up all over the place, and beau-coup luxury car dealerships where we can spend our disposable income that's left over out of the fat paychecks we receive from good-paying jobs. Our unemployment is well below the national average. We've been truly blessed.

Now, let's help our friends and neighbors "up North" who AREN'T doing as well as we are by . . . setting up shop, organizing things and administering things. If we call ourselves "Christians", we can afford to share our good fortune.

The unemployment rate in Pennsylvania is SIX PERCENT. In Erie, where Tom Ridge is from, it's almost EIGHT PERCENT. Believe me: They would LOVE to have nice malls, good-paying jobs with excellent benefits and, most importantly, their children STAYING in-state, growing up, getting a college education and raising their families close by.

That would go a LONG way towards building bridges, dispelling stereotypes and fostering friendships and trust.

but it's important to remember that these things go in cycles. Part of the reason companies relocated to the South was because it was cheaper to run them there. As the South continues to prosper, there will eventually come a time when the cost of business becomes a bit prohibitive, a bit less profitable, and the businesses will migrate back North, where it will be cheaper. Or, alternately and concurrently, the South will find its businesses sent overseas, where it is cheaper to run them.

For what it's worth, as a Kentuckian, "borned and raised," I'm a marginal southerner myself. I've lived in North Carolina as well. There are plenty of things I enjoy and appreciate about the South. They way it voted on Tuesday is not among them.

...the South is the American Third World and the layover on the way to offshore outsourcing.

but not by looking down at them.

own twisted, "Christian" language

The same language Jimmy Carter spoke so god damn well?

Or is he just another bigot racist homophobe sellout.

Its the message yes, but somebody from the urban ivory tower isn't the one to bring it to them.

A rural peanut farmer type...well thats another story...or a poor guy from Arkansas....for example.

the perception of what a democrat is and what a democrat is are two different things. we really have to define ourselves and sell it to the people instead of letting the repugs define us. the big thing that the south and many others have with the dems is not the gay issue and abortion. i am talking the people that dont go to church. and dont believe on stepping on others toes. and there are a lot of southerners that dont go to church.

the dems are arrogant in telling people how to be parents, how to be safe, they dont allow an individual to make choices, cause they figure everyone is stupid and if a person doesnt buy into their fears, then they have to protect them. called nanny mentality. this is the area of the dems that have always pissed me off. this is the part of dems i hear my brother and father yell the most about.

i understand there is good and bad with bothe party. this is excluding bush, he is in a league all his own. all bad, no good, wink. so i figure the majority of what dems represent i like. i vote dem. adn the part i dont like, will be the part i fight.

Pulleeze, Louise!

i dont like either. doesnt mean what the democrats do is a good thing. between that and other things with the party it pisses a lot of people off. i was putting it out since so many are dissing everything about the party, this is the area i see a lot of people bothered. southerners. conservatives that may otherwise vote for our party. but given the choice i would chose dems and this, over the greed and being told how to be a christian every day. just may be something the party to think about, to become new and improved

Much of the anger at the South and the Midwestern heartland is based on zany perceptions that are more myth than reality.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1325884

civil rights act, he said the south would never go democratic again and darned if he wasn't right. Fuck the South, I'm moving...

In 1980 the South had 26 Democratic Senators, today it has 4. If you look at the national "red versus blue" map at both State and County level it is not hard to see that the DNC has become very isolated from the mainstream of this nation.

2 to 1 Americans classify themselves as conservatives and many moderates vote to the right, not the left on many issues.

Bush has one Achilles Heel that will bring him down, take the wind out of his Imperial Sails and that is 9-11.

I was part of the 9-11 Confronting the Evidence in NYC this year. I was part of the criminal complaint that was delivered to Eliot Spitzer on October 28, 2004.

Over 55 million voted against and many of those voters were ecumenical Christians you people are blindly bashing. They were Conservative Republicans and Libertarians that crossed over to try to stop the Bush Junta and the fascism that is represents.

Right here in Arkansas - two key counties that NEVER vote REP did vote Republican this year. Jefferson and Nevada counties and there were others.

The problem with DNC is DNC and that it represents the fringe left and that is NOT America folks. 2 to 1 says this nation is a conservative nation and one that puts certain values front and center every time.

www.karlschwarz.com

http://www.reopen911.org/petition.php

http://www.justicefor911.org /

All of this talk about running Hillary Clinton in 2008. The RNC has been ready to destroy her since 1994. The strategy that took the House and Senate away from Clinton was designed and largely financed by me. Again, run Hillary, rash into the side of the mountain. They are just waiting for another stupid DNC move.

I took a stand for America, freedom, a turning away from Imperialism and fascism. I have received hundreds of emails from Dems asking what to do now. Frankly, DNC is not "resuscitate-able" in its current form. Lest no one noticed, Bush now controls a stronger US Senate and that is more frightening than him being there for 4 more years.

Every person that voted against Bush should be on those petitions linked above.

It is the only hope you have to stopping Bush, and I am the only Republican of the 100 original names on the petition.

If you have not done so, go to my website under Articles and read the DEMAND LETTER that I sent to Bush September 30, 2004 about 7 hours before the first debate and THEN - get this CLEARLY INTO YOUR HEADS -

that DEMAND LETTER was sent to DNC and Kerry too and they did not use it in the debates to evicerate Bush. CONSIDER THAT!

Both sides of the aisle are covering up 9-11 folks, who did it, who is profiting from it and they are AMERICANS.

Ashcroft was forced to resign due to that letter and I was advised from DC yesterday to NOT accept that as the sacrificial offering and let the rest of the DOERS OF 9-11 OFF THE HOOK!

Wake up Dems.

Karl

I don't think anybody has given up on the 'south' - although, at the moment I have given up on anybody voting for * - so automatically due to the large number of people voting for * you will have people saying they gave up on the South. But I am still with you all - democrats have to bring it on.

I really and truly don't. Dems do great in Atlanta races, but this state is dominated by fundies out in the sticks.

I would love to find a way to write off the south. Myself, I will leave if the recently passed marriage amendment in Georgia caused me to loose my DP benefits from work.

nuff said

working toward changing the way things function down there.

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

you can't just nominate a Southerner without targeting the South, we had a shot at Ark and NC, they didn't have any bigot amendments on the Ballot

?

A tight, priggish enclave exhibiting the worst of the old penny-pinching New England values--with the "do the right thing" energy that gave birth to Abolition & Women's Suffrage forver stifled. Less Western expansion (actually, the Indians might have benefited). Less growth, less immigration. The Irish could have remained as the permanent underclass. Far fewer swarthy Italians & Jews. Surely no Chinese or more exotic types.

The slaves would have stayed down South, in chains--no Great Migration. No jazz, blues, rock & roll or country music would make its way North. Just polite, restrained parlor music for refined types with sticks up their asses.

And the South would have been a great buffer against those scary brown people even farther South.

Your ideal country.

Right on the money!

According to the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, 54% of African Americans in the United States live in the South.

http://www.civilrights.org/research_center/civilrights101/demographics.html#live

So. Everyone here that talked incessantly about "the black vote" and the need for black voters to "wake up" or "vote in their own self interest, for once" et al -- but couldn't bother to take any interest in Kerry's appearances at the CBC annual convention or on the Tom Joyner Morning Show -- what are you going to do if you kick out this huge chunk of the population you love to give marching orders (but little else)?

For all of us "down here," white or black, one thing is certain. If the "ignore the South" contingent in the Democratic Party wins, we'll feel it the hardest in...ummm...uh... well... I don't know. The national party has largely ignored us all for a quite some time now.

I have really enjoyed your posts this week. You give me hope!

The South = Jury nullification: As a group, they disregarded the evidence of his criminal incompetence and disastrous, deadly, war-loving zeal, and unanimously voted him back into office. I give up.

Talk to a Bush voter, and suddenly you'll get it. They are the most ignorant, uninformed lot you can find. And the south has become a zoo for Bush supporters.

Check out this map:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2600289

The core of the south is Black and Blue, through and through.

If you want to hate some states, hate the high plains. I say give them back to the Indians and the buffaloes. White society there has always been an aberration.

I missed that the first time around. Great map and discussion thread.

Are you originally from the South, sh0rtbus, or just a masochist (which apparently you have to be if you are willing to say anything positive about the region!)?

=)

Which makes me a masochist in several ways.

I lived in Austin, Texas for two years (which "aint tha souf" of course) and my partner is from San Antonio.

I refuse to hate the south any more than any other part of this racist country!

Since the founding of this Republic we have been catering to the South. Even in the location of the seat of government the entire history of this country is full, TOO full of instances of catering to the South. Now I understand the arguments against looking down on folks and there is a lot to that because if we do not rationally show them how they are voting against their economic interests we will never win (Its the Class Warfare folks!). Still I get tired of hearing all the things we cannot do because we will alienate the South. The South has a LOT to answer for. I am willing to have us go down there and build from the bottom up, its necessary work, but the South has not endeared themselves to this particular Northerner.

Indiana has not supported a Democratic presidential candidate since 1964, the year of the Johnson-Goldwater landslide. Indiana has one of the largest KKK memberships in the country. Only 39% of Indiana voters supported Kerry, fewer than in Mississippi.

I think you would do well to remove the beam from your own eye before preaching about the mote in someone else's.

And I detest what goes on here as much as I do in the south, in fact I consider Indiana a southern state for all intents and purposes. If my wife was not from here I would be back in Philadelphia.

And it still doesn't change the fact that while I am all for making inroads in the South and winning them over they STILL have a lot to answer for. Building bridges is fine. Kowtowing is not. All we EVER do after these damned elections is kowtow to bigotry and know-nothingism. Let the Southerners bring something constructive to the table for once and we'll talk.

move to Philadelphia, a city he considered racist?

BTW, I consider Curt Flood to be a great man, he really stood up for what was right and refused to be treated like cattle to bought and sold. It is sad that there weren't more modern baseball players at his funeral, they don't realize all he did for them

Anyway, as for the south, we will never win it by cowtowing and pandering. Kerry tried to do the moderate thing and look what happened. His health care plan was labeled socialized medicine, even though it was basically just a tax cut. And he was considered a big taxer even after he gave that rediculous "YES...right in the camera!" line.

We need someone who will reach out to the south, but will stay tough. That is what they will respect IMO. Mario Cuomo could have done it at one point. I don't want to wave goodbye to the South, but I also don't want to continue this failed policy of pandering.

Steve

I mean, look at this freaking map!

Red is clinton. Look at that southern ownage.

3 days since probably one of the most divisive presidential elections in US history. Could we please put away the dueling pistols for a few weeks!

It will be much harder this time around since states have fallen victim to GOP rule on the state level, ESPECIALLY Georgia. But I think that we can do it again. We'll start small, Arkansas and Florida, work up to Louisiana and Tennesee, then West Virginia, etc. Alabama and Mississippi are pretty hopeless but we don't need their votes.

And, really, progressive Democratic southerners are some of the most progressive people in the country. I believe they're making inroads, but it will take more time. Certainly, Louisiana, South Carolina, North Carolina, Florida, and even Georgia are within reach.

I'm getting a little fed up with the same old fricking disruptors being allowed to denigrate about oh, I don't know ONE QUARTER OF THE COUNTRY.

We need help in the South, not your snotty bitter armchair quickie Nazi solutions.

I don't have much faith in a state that elects a homophobe like Jim DeMint to the US Senate. But I do think that we can work on Florida, Arkansas, Louisiana, and I guess Georgia, Tennesee, and North Carolina as second tier.

say the same about me! =)

I don't think we should abandon the South, but as soon as the repukes say "Gay Marriage", we lose the South. That is the effect of 30 years of infrastructure, contolling the debate, language, gay baiting, "god" party, and government bashing by the republicans. I sincerely believe that the republicans could run year after year of record deficits, send the national debt to 40 trillion, get into 3 more wars and create the two America's and we would still lose the south. I believe they will put some sort of gay issue on the ballot every election to get their base to the polls. That's all they need.

Liberals will be proven correct on the gay issue and we should not abandon the issue on our platform, but we should concentrate more on the west and southwest and let nature take its course in the deep south except for perhaps Florida.

Am I way off base here?

All the "holding hands" with the people in the south can be undone in one day by just uttering words like: I believe ALL people should be allowed to marry or even speaking up for Black's rights.
It's not the average intelligent Southerner that you have to convince to vote for their best interest, it's the down and out hillbilly and hillbilly mindset that you (or ANY progressive) will never reach. They are a lost cause and trying to educate them is a total waste of time. I (myself) would like to believe that the south is savable but in my heart, I don't believe it.

I've talked and convinced folks down here to see the ways of the democrats and progressives. 2 days later I see them again and they're just as ignorant and bigoted as when I first met them.
Of course, there're fools everywhere....the south just has about 5 or 6 percent more of them...

and if we can't do that for them, we're goners.

Honestly. I think it's clear that the motivation behind much of the orgy of south-bashing we have seen lately is more a desire to be free of those tacky hayseeds than anything having to do with winning elections.

Let's face it--southern liberals have always caught a lot of hell at DU. We were unwelcome here long before this past Tuesday. The sad truth is that many self-declared "progressives" are, at heart, about as "progressive" as the Charleston Junior League when it comes to the Great Unwashed.

Fred Harris, a genuine populist from Oklahoma, famously said, "You can't have a mass movement without the masses." It's increasingly hard to avoid concluding that most liberals want to have nothing to do with the masses.

Is it southern liberals that are catching a lot of hell or just that it seems that when people post here at DU they generally group all southerners together? What would you say is the biggest differences between a southern liberal and a northern liberal?

I think when I say southerner I mean mostly evangelicals and people who do not value education much. This excludes any progressives that live in the south.

Please see post 124.

Grouping all religious people together is another aspect of the same problem. Evangelicals and fundamentalists are not the same thing. Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and Jimmy Carter are evangelicals, for example. But too many of us act as though all Christians might as well be Branch Davidians.

Arkansas and Florida in particular. Louisiana seriously disappointed me this time around, but I'm not giving up hope on it yet.

Thanks again for your thread, but I'm done with it now.

I've read too much here and elsewhere on this borad from some in our party who are determined to continue in their elitist ways. I feel that this position is diametrically opposed to the idea that a large part of the liberal aganda is inclusiveness.

What I'm seeing is the emotional equivalent of an all white country club. I hope people learn better before the mid-term campaigns.