Ya know, for a site that was pissed at Bush over excuses, .....

I'm seeing a lot of excuses for us losing on November 2nd here.

1) It was those damnable machines!!!
a) Was this excuse used when punch card ballots first came out?
b) Was this excuse used when the old machines were rolled out?
c) Was this excuse used when the first paper ballot was used?

2) It's those damn gays!
a) Is this scapegoating, an excuse from antiquity?
b) Are we really prepared to jettison a significant portion of our base when all it really takes is reworking the rhetoric in order to appeal to people rather than repulse them?

3) It's that damnable media!
a) This was the favorite excuse of the Republicans at one time!
b) Could it be that boring droning on and on about the nuances of an issue causes the average American to hit the remote control and pithy sound bites sell soap?

Fuck the excuses, people. Accept the responsibility. We fucked up! We ignored the people and lived in ivory towers expecting the unwashed masses to naturally see our superior intellect and know we speak truth with statistics and charts to back it all up!

We made up all sorts of conspiracy theories where Karl Rove was everything from an evil GENIUS to Osma bin Laden has been captured for three years and is being saved to trot out at the Republican National Convention. This helped push Joe Sixpack towards the Republicans thus saving them the cost of pulling Joe that way!

We skewed the statisitcs to mean anything and everything that we wanted them to mean. Mark Twain said, "There are lies, damned lies, AND STATISTICS!!!"

We were the most effective tool in Karl Rove's arsenal! WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US!

My apologies to Walt Kelly.

"It was those hick Southerners!"

"It was the fault of everyone living in non-coastal states!"

:evilgrin:

There have actually been dozens of other excuses offered up to the altar of scapegoating here, though.

:evilgrin:

And we called Bush the EXCUSES president. :eyes:

LOL

you decieded to live in an ivory tower and ignore all the evidence provided here.. I guess we should ignore the overwhelming proof of fraud. Just think if one precint can deliver Bush with 4k plus votes then we are in trouble... So yea i am pointing fingers to those who would do anything to hold on to power. That includes cheating and rigging the voting process

I;ve looked at every last thread. The entire thing has been nothing but conspiracy theory EXCUSES!

We got our asses kicked fair and square. No amount of platitudes over standard issues that occur in every election is going to alter that simple fact. Three million votes are simply not created out of thin air.

Bush kicked our collective asses. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can learn from it.

of the presidential vote since 1964.

Even if it was the damned machines, it's time to retool

Kerry conceded. We might as well face that straight up, so we can all be ready for a sweep when 2006 and 2008 come.

Wouldn't want to point any fingers, so I'll just shoulder the blame.

Beat yourself up if you want, but don't try to take everybody down with you.

the facts are in. If people want more facts rather than jump to conclusions, they are being good empiricists. You can't solve problems if you haven't identified the real problems.

And even if there was fraud, there's still a real problem.

Were all the polls showing a tie faked as well? This is against a president with a disaster of a record. His opponent should have been beating him by 12 points on election day.

Even if you wind up proving fraud, you must find out why that wasn't happening. A coin toss vs. Bush's record is unacceptable.

Well said.

:puke::puke::puke::puke:

I do believe there was a possibility of fraud in the election, or even if fraud did not occur, we have no way of knowing, and that is _dangerous_. So it should be investigated.

That being said, until we can accept the possibility that we actually lost fair and square, we cannot begin to move on and make the changes that will get us WINNING elections! Imagine if we sit around for four years bitching about the machines. Do you think we'll win in 2008 with no revised strategy, and the GOP strategy more fine-tuned than ever? I think not.

and i mean thought Provoking, by the way.

It would have also skyrocketed had a miracle occurred and Kerry had won.

The driving factor here is the success of the election with no major problems occurring with all of the machines out there.

If, however, the machines had experienced widespread failure, Diebold would already be delisted because it would be trading so low.

people like David Brock and Robert Parry who have painstakingly documented
that reality are just making excuses.

I guess Bev Harris is just bored and has nothing better to do with her life
than confront voter fraud, because that's not really an issue either. Its an
excuse.

Spare me.

I suppose the guys making a living pushing the theory that collusion between the CIA, the FBI, the KGB, Castro, and the mob is what killed Kennedy means they're 100% correct too!

Appeals to authority have no sway with me. I call them for the fallacies they are.

Are you saying that because Brock, Parry, and Harris have taken on these
issues, that makes them some sort of Authorities who cannot fool a genius
fallacy detector like you? And makes them equal to Kennedy assassination
nuts, and necessarily wrong about their conclusions?

You trotted out names citing those names as authorities without presenting any evidence. That is a fallacy within discourse.

Next time, try trotting out hard evidence. It sways opinion most effectively in a debate.

to read these bogus Authorities.

commit voter fraud in this election.

Thank you.

The Evoting machines are in fact a good idea, but they need perfected. They must provide an audit trail! Most people wouldn't use an ATM when they first came out! But today, most people would be lost without them.

But the machines are NOT the only problem.

A big part of the problem really is the way the Dems not having a short, strong, and quickly UNDERSTANDABLE message.

The biggest problem, I think, is our candidates simply not being "the most likeable". I know, I hate this too, but think about it. The presidents who won, on either side, are almost always the most likeable. Why do you think Bill Clinton won TWO terms? He was being torn apart by the Pubs, accused of EVERYTHING, including murder! But he still won! People LIKED HIM! Reagan won, because people LIKED HIM! And yes, shrub too!

To me it seems tacky and pandering when I see a candidate telling personal stories, and comforting people with a hug after a disaster, and all the other similar BS, but that's what makes the voters believe they can trust you.

and thus, Joe Sixpack ignored him at first and reviled him in the end.

you don't have to read what I say. All power resides with you.

Years ago I had a spiritual mentor who made absolutely certain to be brutally honest with me on personal issues, especially after a crisis within my life. This hurts in the beginning, but the advantages of brutal honesty cannot be discounted.

I'm being brutally honest with you, BGL.

You're working from the assumption that we made an empassioned defense of our position on social issues. The truth is that we didn't at all. In fact, if we had, we would have been on the offensive in that regard, not the defensive.

You can't say we "made a mistake" in the way that you're saying it. We very well may have- and, in fact, I believe we did- but it was only because we didn't make the case that we could have.

The machines must go.

Until they do, we will never have faith in our democracy.

Standardized federal election process would also be really nice.

OOPS, wrong machines, identical argument, wrong era.

/Brutal honesty mixed with sarcasm

Please, trot out hard data next time.

Please explain.

The problem was caught and corrected, ergo, the system worked.

What about the areas where the problem was not caught nor corrected? Or are you so obtuse as to fucking suggest that this was not the case.

You;ve got to do much better than this. You're acting like a Nixon supporter in 1960 bitching about the Daley machine.

Add up every mistake in every precinct in every county in every state and you know what, GEORGE BUSH STILL WON!

It's up to you how you handle it, but dwelling on pipe dream conspiracy theories is not a healthy reaction in my humble opinion.

You're not going to find 136,222 additional votes in Ohio no matter how hard you try. It simply will not happen.

Nixon didn't even need that many in 1960. Nixon and Kerry were both statesmen about close elections although their followers occasionally leave a bit to be desired.

Palm Beach is a 60/40 Democratic county. The more votes the better. or didn't you know that?

Looking at the updated Palm Beach number, our net gain in Dade, Broward and Palm Beach was even closer to the +400,000 I estimated before Tuesday.

But keep at it, Diebold brainstormers. I'm sure you'll find that missing 378,000 Florida votes somewhere. Try Lake Ochechobee.

Read David Brock's book. Read Robert Parry's book. Read Bev Harris' book.

Cite the evidence. All I've seen is mumbo jumbo bullshit. There are plenty of books by plenty of conspiracy theorists on plenty of subjects out there. Who the fuck has time tp read them all?

the factual problems with paperless e-voting. HE TOOK THE TIME TO DO RESEARCH.

As did the NYTimes in their numerous Make Votes Count Editorials.

Your CLAIM to authority is meaningless.

You've taken the time to do jackshit on this issue.

Except try to make it sound like "tinfoil".

I respect the extensive investigations and research that Bev Harris and every other BBV Activist has done.

You apparently haven't read Greg Palast's research on the 2000 Election.

Tell you what Walt, your opinion will mean something the minute you bother to post in DETAIL all the flaws in Bev's research on this issue.

Your posts are very similar to what GOP Operatives would be posting if they wanted to start invalidating investigations into POSSIBLE Election Fraud.

The claimant with the initial positive assertion is under the burden of proof in logical discourse.

You claimed the machines stole the election. You are under the burden of proof.

I await the hard data.

all YOU have done so far is display a woeful ignorance of the problems INHERENT in BBV.

And the FACT is that paperless e-voting is RIPE for fraud.

There is an ongoing investigation right now to find out whether that fraud actually happened.

And the FACT there's no paper ballots to back up vote tallies PROVES THERE IS HUGE POTENTIAL FOR FRAUD.

Again, You cannot critique an argument YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.

It's like trying to discuss a movie with someone who hasn't taken the time to see it.

doesn't mean there's not a problem with the message.

Where were the polls showing a Kerry landslide? He was running against a talking monkey.

Your posts are very similary to what GOP Operatives would be posting if they wanted to keep Democrats from understanding why they don't connect with the American people.

Not really, but I don't think Walt is the one with his head in the sand.

I KNOW what needs to be tweaked with the Democrat's message.

And I've posted on THAT subject numerous times.

But Democrats could repackage a message in the cure for fucking cancer and with BBV EVERY ELECTION COULD STILL POTENTIALLY BE STOLEN.

It's really quite simple.

That a few DU'ers have a problem with investigating the numerous
glaring irregularities in this election, especially those involving paperless e-voting means they are either willingly blind or have an agenda.

Walt is arguing against the people who are saying, "It's not us, it's the machines". I don't hear him arguing against investigating the machiens, I hear him arguing against using it as an excuse for losing.

If that's not you, I don't see why you're responding with such hostility.

then our "message" worked. Even WITH the Media against Kerry.

And if you think the Media didn't work against Kerry, then please explain:

Swift Boat Smear that got endless free time
Teresa Craps On Stay At Home Moms
Mean Kerry Called Cheney's Daughter Lesbian

Cause NONE of that had anything to do with any issues....

;-)

I'm just passing along some tough love and brutal honesty.

;)

I thank you for that from the bottom of my independent heart.
:hug:

This faith-based wishful thinking about BBV and fraud is not doing us any good. Fact is, we got our ass handed to us. We need to deal with it.

Thanks for thinking of my mental health anyway.

:)

nt

It's good to see actual productive ideas, rather than the whining, f**ck you's, and conspiracy theories.



:yourock:

...because you haven't seen any fraud and the media hasn't reported anything on the subject...that proves there was no fraud? The best that can be said about this type of thinking is that it's simplistic.

- Studying the possibility of election fraud should be left to the experts...but what you're suggesting is that we shouldn't worry about it all at because you don't think it's important.

- What you seem to be telling Democrats is to 'move on' and 'get over it'. It wouldn't surprise me if your next thread labels Dems as 'Sorelosermen'.

- I can only conclude that you've steered away from researching any issue that has the appearance of a 'conspiracy theory'. If you haven't seen it already...may I recommend the video 'Unprecedented'? Within is a detailed account of how the Bush* Team and GOP operatives systematically rigged the 2000 election. Does this prove that they cheated again in 2004? Perhaps not. But the pivotal issue is NOT that the Bushies might have cheated Democrats out of taking office. The issue is and has always been that Americans have a right to a TRANSPARENT system of elections where every vote is counted and fraud is impossible. We actually have a system where private corporations with direct connections to Bush*/Republicans build, operate and program the voting machines Americans use to elect the leader of the only remaining 'superpower'. That in and of itself provides a reason to be suspicious.

- While it's true that it may be impossible to prove any kind of fraud...your diatribe completely disregards the fact that the Bush* admin. is one of the most corrupt and secretive in the history of our country. Yet...you continue to bitch and moan that Democrats shouldn't be concerned about it. It's disturbing that your strategy to win doesn't include making those in power accountable to the people. Winning seems to be the only thing on your mind. The People expect more. Well...at least half of the people expect more.

- I'll await your next self-hating thread to see which direction you'll travel.

And it gets so much better with constant repetition!

count we will have won...
But I think that uncovering all the fraud and getting an accurate count is imperative to preserving our democracy. It doesn't matter if the outcome changes or not, to sit around with our collective thumbs twiddling when there are thousands of miscounted or lost votes using newer technology that was supposed to help, will most certainly not help....
I think many DU'ers are able to multi-task, figure out why we didn't get way more of a mandate to get Bush out of office as he was a pretty big fricking easy target, and figure out if we are being screwed in the voting booth. Jesus, if situations were reversed and Kerry were getting overcounted votes from machines by the thousands in a county I would want to know how and why! I would also want it freaking fixed!
Kathy

...I suspect you'll get the following reactions from the credible & the wide-eyed frothing furious:

1. "Read the evidence!/all the evidence isn't in yet!/haven't you read (insert this or that obscure book or pamphlet HERE) yet?!?!?!?

2. "Why are you so eager to help the Repukes suppress THE TRUTH!?! Hmmmm? Hmmmm?"

3. "I'm glad we have that 'ignore' function!!!!"

4. "Deleted Message - click here to review the Message Board rules"

It is human nature to passionately resist the truth of things we simply don't want to come terms with when they go badly - especially after so much emotion was tied to the hope that they would go our way. That's when a fair amount of us start casting about looking for "alternative" explanations and shadowy "conspiracies" everywhere - it's simply too hard to accept that which seems inexplicable. It's been hence since the first upright human cursed the gremlins hiding in the cracks of the earth for ruining his crops, or the sprites of May for drying up his springs & wells. And that's what we're seeing here with all this loopy speculation about a conspiracy that, were it real, would've have literally taken the collusion of tens of thousands of disassociated persons to pull off - which is simply impossible.
We need to accept this, regroup, and fight on, not indulge in fair tales and wishful thinking. I'm sure that makes me a "Freeper" in some quarters :eyes: So be it. It also has the redeeming factor of being true.

For all your condemnation of us, I don't see a lot of specifics about how we were the problem. I, for one, acknowledge that I pooh-poohed the idea that gay marriage would be an issue in this of all years; I was wrong and I admit it.

However, the facts as they are emerging ARE that there were numerous irregularities in the vote counting (which have been documented for YEARS going back to 2000), that Rove IS an evil slimeball who doesn't care what he does to American society as long as his guy maintains power (it doesn't get much more evil than that, does it?), and that despite the popularity of F 9/11 and the emergence of Air America and the blogosphere, that it still does not hold a candle to the right-wing infrastructure of media and pulpit (which, yes, I for one also discounted). These are all true, and all MUST be thrown into the mix when figuring out what happened and what to do next.

We can certainly be our own enemies - but that doesn't mean we can't fight outside enemies when they are both real and found. Does it?

* 21% of the electorate describes itself as liberal to 33% conservative. Therefore, we are in an automatic hole beginning every election

* Republicans are more loyal to their candidate by a net 3-5% every election

* 9/11 caused a party identification swing toward the GOP, now even at 37-37 and not 39-35 our advantage like in 2000

* White men support the GOP by virtually a constant 63-36 margin nationwide

* This year white women abandoned our party and sided 55-44 with Bush, a massive 10% betrayal from 2000, when Gore lost them just 49-48%. A 10% loss among 41% of the voting block is fatal. Security moms were not a myth and Kerry was not likeable enough to win them over.

* Both Gore and Kerry were described by huge majorities by the electorate as someone "who will say anything to be elected", much moreso than Bush.

* Kerry had a negative favorability rating, 47-51 according to the national exit poll

Look, if we were in a positive spiral I would be emphasizing that stuff. But we are not. How are the above truths supposed to equate to a national win? BBV is a legit issue and we need full access to code and paper trails that will be verified automatically against machine counts, regardless of the margin of victory. BBV machines should actually help us, especially in huge urban areas, if completely accurate.

But those are peripheral issues. We are a minority party because we too frequently receive minority numbers in most states, regardless of voting method or level of the race. That is an issue oriented and message oriented problem that we need to focus on with laser clarity. Otherwise, in 2006 and 2008 DU will be spewing the same type of post-election 'we wuz wobbed!' garbage. Just bookmark your cynical threads and repost them then. Change a few numbers and the name of the state, if needed.