I think if the Dems were NOT pro-choice, then we would've won.

Instead of throwing the gays over the side of the boat, let's just throw the pro-choicers over the side of the boat.

I'm sure we could win then.

/sarcasm

God doing it you know.

"gay marraige" was pure republican bait.

And the Dems swallowed it and RAN with it

As a pro-choice, pro gay rights individual that lives in Louisiana (the hated south) I'm not sure I belong here any longer.

To me it is vital part of the Democratic platform. We are being a little sarcastic, because the party is now about to decide to try to be more like the Republicans so we can win. We tried that for a while.

You are in good company here. I was raised Southern Baptist, and though I am not gay, I feel if I can understand that they are being used as wedges, then the party should figure it out as well.

to do something about either one, he would have done it already. They only bring them up when an election is coming up; that way they keep the sheep in the flock. You belong here, and we all want you to stay. Dems just have to start being a little smarter when they bring this shit up and throw it back at them, i.e. "why didn't Bush do something about it already?"

you'll feel just fine.

Okay, you'll be as pissed off as ever, but you'll be surrounded by equally pissed off people.

rights. Most of the people here are for those rights too. The ones that aren't are being more vocal and are in denial about what this party stands for.

throwing one part of our party overboard at all.

That's why I put the "/sarcasm" thing in there. I guess some people didn't see that part of my message. Sorry.

They are trying to convince to split our party up, and it *is* bait.

Don't you think? Then get really religious really fast. I am not making fun, as I am a Southern Baptist who hates being pandered to.

Also some sarcasm.

We need the CEO vote.

that'll show em

Come on dude.

If we were Republicans, we would have won!

And why I put the /sarcasm code there.

If we throw all our principles overboard, then we'd be hateful, intolerant republicans.

We need to

1. Investigate vote fraud
2. Stand by our principles
3. Fine tune our message
4. Get more radio and TV visibility for our talking points

...yet...I don't think we lost an honest election.

And I do think we should stand by our principles.

I don't think ANYone should be thrown overboard to make our party more 'appealing' to the bigots.

facing the country right now.

The republicans knew this, and made an issue out of it, knowing many (and oh, yes, the media) would take the bait.

Then they got ballot initiatives on the state ballots to ensure a large fundie turnout.

They're diabolical politicians, and it works for them. They're at war with us.

When someone's at war with you, you have to be at war back at them.

I don't understand why some people think that this is a "sacrifice of principles".

We're at war. We're getting our asses kicked. We have to have a plan that will WORK.

...nor did any other gay person I know.

This hit me by suprise, just as most people here. Are you telling me that you knew all along that MARRIAGE EQUALITY (not "gay marriage") was going to be our Doom 3 months ago, when everybody else was focused on the Swift Boat Liars? did you scream red herring then? We got the G bomb, let's make sure they don'e outflank us again on that.

Yeah, we're at war. The last time I looked, neither the party platform, nor the candidates were FOR gay marriage. How did these referendi translate into Bush votes then? Good tactics is not agreeing with them, because they don't vote against us over this or any other issue, they vote against us because it's a sin to vote for a Democrat. Spend a Sunday in a Pentacostal church if you don't believe me. If we pandered to their bigoted sensibilities, we might as well surrender and become one of them, because there would be no need for a culture war.

something about it. I really don't think he even thinks about it until Rove tells him an election is coming up, so he better start spouting that shit. Except for starting wars, Bush is really a do-nothing president; all hat, no cattle.

And I got fucking CRUCIFIED on DU for it.

I am all for equal rights, gay marriage, whatever you want to call it.

But it's the kind of issue you pursue when YOUR GUYS ARE IN POWER.

And the issue didn't originate, at least in the media, from the gays, it originated from the RIGHT WING.

It was bait. Everybody took it. It was long before the main election. It may have been a whole year ago, I can't remember exactly when.

That way everybody wins.

/sarcasm off

Would be an excuse for the rest to jump ship as well. I do think we could reframe the abortion issue as a way to get more programs to help those who might get abortions, but that is just where I stand personally.

The best thing would be to do what the right did after Goldwater got blown out of the water. Make the long term investment at the grassroots and in think tanks, and be proud of who we are. Nobody wants a party or ideology that is blowing in the wind, that is perceived as being embarassed about where is stands.

I think that no matter how moderate or far left each of us is, we should all call ourselves liberals. Liberal isn't a position on this or that issue. Liberal is an attitude, one that we all can share despite out disagreements.

"pro-life" voters halfway.

get's control the left half!

And who says someone can't be "a little pregnant"!

Brilliant.

We can be only partially oppressive and hateful towards women!

Yeah!

Here's a clue - pro-choice IS the "half way"!

But that's too hard a concept for you, we see.

Condoms are okay for married people... if they promise not to enjoy themselves.

As she became more affluent and moved to a more conservative area, she has become more Republican leaning in some ways. She has said that she will always be a Democrat though because the party supports a woman's right to choose. Really, it is too bad that some people are one issue voters, but I think that we have the vote of many better off women because of our stance on abortion too. I don't really think that half the country wants Roe vs Wade to be overturned. On the otherhand, none of this matters if we do things based on principle, like we should anyway.

Then support a "christian nation" concept.

Oh, better yet - let's all just put the Democratic Party into a hiatus for the foreseeable future until the Repukes ask us to come back for some reason only they will have!

economic concerns if they think we're ignoring their "pro-life" concerns?

Maybe we should say abortion should be banned after 4 months of pregnancy, with some exceptions.