BBV theories distract us from the real problems with the party

All the BBV theories and the voter fraud charges may or may not be true, but a consequence of harping on these theories is that it distracts us from dealing with why we lost and how we should change the party. Assuming that Bush won through massive voter fraud assumes that the Democratic party is still the the rightful majority party, and our deteriorating position in congress and loss of the popular vote make that a delusion.

Can BBV account for the over 3 million vote difference and our loss of states that don't use touch screens? While we should continue to question this form of vote tallying and demand electoral accountability, we shouldn't let it destract us from reforming the party and grappling with the real, and tough issues of being the minority party.

Including the ones who didn't vote.

We can do 10 things at once. Lay off!

I'm not saying we can't, I'm saying that a lot of the rhetoric on DU assumes we won, when it is clear we didn't

that we are really down by 3.5 million votes. We don't know that.

It's a big site, and anyone can post any idea they have, of which your's had none. Only an appeal that everybody get into one big huddle and focus on something else. Well, what is that else you want to work on? What ideas do you have?

Nobody, least of all me, is hinging all our hopes that systematic fraud will be found, and the election will be reversed, but there are questions we have, and as participants in a democracy, we deserve the time, and benefit of the doubt to find those answers. If you don't care, then find something else productive to do...like how to appeal to more of the youth vote, or whatever pet mission is at this point.

Edit: Spelling.

He is the lone Green in the Maine House. *g* Can't get much more minor than that.

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FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

If we can't find enough evidence in that time then we should focus on reform. 2 years till the next election of any time. That means we have a year and a half in between for it.

it will happen again in 2 years.

filibuster.

put 45 more in next time.

And the question of how Democrats can IMPROVE their winning message is another topic entirely than BBV.

and getting all the votes counted.

We can work on strategy for 2008 after we've finished with 2004.

I suggested a separate forum for the BBV stuff with updates posted here on occasion.

I don't want to see it and the drinkers don't want people like me knocking it down.

You know we don't like to see your knocking of our investigation of the most critical issue of the day. Congratulations!

I think that the democrats should hold monthly mega-parties around
the country in large halls, where people of like mind can come
and have a rave dance, or a fine meal and enjoy good company.

We are all fight and no bonding... its stripping us down and wearing
us out...

Besides that, we have until dec 12, to prove fraud, and i can feel
thousands of people following up in this area, as heck, the vote
counts arn't even done yet.

Then, when all's said and done (and possibly a kerry win!), we can
revisit your beloved postmortem.... though i can tell you, it appears
that nobody is prepared to secure serious change, as they feel "we"
came too close to winning to call the approach a failure, so likely
they'll keep running the ol' clinton up the middle play until not
a yard is made.

To achieve what your on about, involves revisiting first principals,
from the choice of an jackass as our logo, to the choice of jackasses
as the leaders who value swing flip flopper voters more than the
broad spectrum of peoples who need equal rights and economic justice
in america. As of today, most people believe the jackass strategy
is working... so the real advise for a serious person is to sit
back and let the democrats fail until they finally admit that
being a jackass is not working anymore.

That strategy might very well involve detatching yourself from EVER
winning, as certainly the democratic leadership hasn't wisdom about
winning any more. Then perhaps, its time to cover the tatoos,
take out the tongue stud, and practice saying things like "I love
jesus." "Praise the lord." and "God bless america." Pretend that
you are a hollywood actor hired to play a fundie and get in to the
part, knowing full well its a ruse, but practice the form, as it
may be a new form of genetic survival given how spineless the dems
have been. I think with that naive asswipe daschle gone, there
may be some opportunity for some savvy leadership, but that will
only come in time.

I think the DLC is wrong, and that the problem is the lack of good
candidates. We are short of warm bodies to run for office, and in
that regard, i presume "we" are all invited to see if we can do
better. Screw the DLC, they have failed 3 elections running. Its
time we had our own parties, and put up candidates to win.

We have a little over a month to get PRESIDENT KERRY the job he earned!

The only party i'm interested in right now, is the kerry inauguration
party. That we need to prove the crimes of people who have been
pursuing a blatant, multistate criminal corruption, without any
police assistance, speaks to the sickness that the republicans have
become.

If we do not address the issues of BBV and voter fraud we can change the party all we want and we'll still never win. How can we change it so they can't steal it?

we lost because of the fraud. THAT IS WHAT WENT WRONG!!!!!

priorities ok, if they can get Ralph to get N.H. results challenged,
then they can open up 34 other states for challenge.

If this happens, the media will HAVE TO cover it.

Now, you go tell 55million people that they were defrauded of their vote and you won't have to wait 4 years to get Shrub out.

original post re-read that and then re-read my response to it. I expect an apology for for your sexist comment.

then is in fine shape. Healthy and renewed.

The only issue is BBV. Why concern ourselves over the implications of a meaningless, arbitrary, sum of vote hacks to 3 million more popular votes? It's absurd. We won and it was stolen.

to the republicans is NOT in "fine shape", whither we won OR lost.

I think BBV is a legit issue, I do, but I don't think it's why we lost. Everything I've seen here that suggest that it "cost us" the election amounts to denial and tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.

Okay, then... Please explain how we're supposed to not surrender "WHOLE REGIONS" of the country.

Preferably without using the words "sanctity of marriage" "right to life" or "Jesus".

Next election, we keep doing what we're doing we lose Wisconsin and Michigan.

Our current tactics cost us two winnable elections.

Close doesn't count, we lost.

Time to change tactics, probably strategy too.

He had help from Enron and Ken Lay (who is still a free man because... remind me, again?)

And trust me, he's going to have some 'splainin to do in 2006. Particularly about his little trip to Ohio. I think most of the people in California who voted for him (hell no, I wasn't one of them) were voting for an action star, not a "Republican"... (Not that that's any excuse) He lost 10 points just by showing up at the GOP Convention.. He hasn't won them back, either.

For all the armchair quarterbacking from Non-Californians about "the Gropenator", I see their fears (and the GOP's fantasies) about some kind of Republican comeback here in California were, as I keep telling everyone, bullshit. The GOP can't win elections here without a) majorly changing their message and b) pulling some seriously underhanded crap, to boot.

As for your suggestions on changing tactics and/or strategy, I'm all ears. But don't expect me to get all whole-hog excited about ideas involving giving the shaft to my gay brothers and sisters, ditching my commitment to reproductive freedom, or selling out the bedrock principles of separation of church and state. Millions of us "out of touch coastal elitists" aren't going to GO THERE- most of those issues are deal-breakers for us.

then whether or not we're the "minority party" doesn't mean SHIT.

We're not living in a Democracy anymore.

You are right that we have problems to address, and that Bush may have gotten the majority of the PV fair and square. But to ignore the BBV problem would be at our peril. It's entirely possible that they ARE responsible for tipping Ohio Bush's way.

If we don't gete it resolved, they will cheat on a bigger scale every election, and no matter how much we change and selff-examine and change again, it won't make ANY difference, if THEY are the ones counting the votes with no way to audit the count.

Thhey are NOT trustworthy people. Why on EARTH would you advocate trusting them to count the vots honesty.

Bush's florida campaign chair was in charge of the vote count in 2000.

In 2004, the man in charge of the election in Ohio was - you guessed it - the chairman of Bush's Ohio campaign!

And you tell us we need to retool ourselves and ignore that?

Hell, no.

"While we should continue to question this form of vote tallying and demand electoral accountability..."

Doesn't sound like the poster is asking anyone to ignore anything. I think it's addressed to the people who are saying, "We didn't do anything wrong -- it was the machines!"

Failing to nip this BBV thing in the bud may very well mean permanent irrelevance for our party. It's not who has the most vots, It's who counts them - Stalin was so right.

And I don't believe the party needs to be reformed so much as refined. Refined to stay on message, refined to have more cohesion, and refined in our efforts to educate the group who would be most harmed by Bush policies - working-class people, esp. in the service industries from the cities to the suburbs.

get yer head out the sand. Nothing we can do with the party can overcome this chicanery if we don't all speak up. They already stole two elections and they are going to do it again and again.

considering everything I've seen concerning voter fraud, we didn't lose.

And yes BBV could very well account for plenty of votes. It's just a few keystrokes, dude. Not like it's hard. Bev Harris has been screaming about this for what? Two years or more?

Without dealing with these election issues, EVERYTHING else is academic.

Some on the left criticize the fundies for not living in the "reality based" world, but then proceed to into fantasy land themselves.

It's human nature. Whether religion, conspiracies, urban legends, whatever, people tend to believe whatever makes them comfortable - facts be damned. As Kurt Cobain used to sing, "It's fun to lose, and to pretend."

It's why over the years I've come to be more of a moderate libertarian than a liberal or a conservative. I believe in science and empiricism and hard cold facts, regardless of who it offends.

If WE did in fact lose, then possibly soul searching is critical.

However, if you believe in what you stand for, and I do, I pretty much stand with John Kerry's positions 90%, then what I am do to, mold my positions to be like those that are the "winners"?

No. I don't believe that Gays are the problem. I don't believe that the bible trumps the constitution, and I'm not going to pander to that even if it gets votes. That's not the point of being a Democrat.

And beyond that, the reason WHY the votes, and fraud are even more crucial is exactly the reason we are being considered a minority in the first place.

If you have a truly divided country, nearly 50/50 and you believe your position is the best (I do-that's why I vote Democrat) then it's crucial that every vote gets counted, that every vote that can be cast be cast, because 51% is what makes you a winner. So really how can you not say it's the votes?

What are the tough issues of being a miniority party? Really? Is that code for becoming your opposition?

Again-no. I support Gay Rights, abortion availabilty, the environment, and the seperation of church from state. I'm not surrendering those issues. I care about the poor and I'm not giving up on believing that it's not just my quality of life that matters but the entire country.

What's the point of becoming them? To be a "winner"?

It's the votes, stupid. And if those of our "miniority" party don't believe their votes are going to be counted, for God sakes, how can you even ask them to vote?

Read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1336982

37 states used Diebold machines. The list of counties using them runs 28 pages long.

Think about it.

You, of all people, should know that there were dozens upon dozens of things tht were going to "get Bush this time" and Bush is still going strong.

When I see real evidence, I'll believe it. Personally, I believe I will NEVER see real evidence.

There could have been some cheating, but not enough to account for what actually happened. If there was cheating, I think it should be exposed, but the fact remains that we lost. We need to be figuring out where we go from here.

a million votes as it is to steal a thousand.
:eyes:

Stop beating around the Bush.